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dusteatingbug

Member
Dec 1, 2017
1,393
This discussion, as framed, is about whether women are inviting sexual advances by wearing makeup.



Sexual harassment in the workplace is a global problem. That includes Europe. In France, for instance, 56% of women reported being harassed at work.

Also the thing to keep in mind with this makeup shit is that it was inherently sexist. Why does Jordan Peterson wear dad jeans and big shouldered blazers and slather his head with hair products? Is he inviting sexual harassment? If someone sexually harassed him and he objected, would he be a hypocrite?
 

nick shaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
371
I agree he is an awful dumbass but as we can see in this thread, he does resonate with a lot of lost young men, which is why he's concerning. Because those young men are looking at their alienated directionless ennui-filled lives and mainstream liberal discourse does not seem to be presenting them with a way out. Peterson offers a way out. It's fascist and moronic and self-serving at at its core it's pretty much entirely gibberish, but he gives them these obvious ways to make their lives marginally better and wraps it in a (again, idiotic, but to some people convincing) worldview that seems coherent and even profound to people who don't know enough to know he's bullshitting.
i guess you might fall for it.....if youre a tiny little bug that eats dust.
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
Yes this perfectly invalidates every, single page.

Come on man, you are better than this.
Nonsense; he's invalidated himself with his routine stupidity and obscene remarks (re: lobsters) that you've either chosen to ignore or shift the goalposts whenever one of them is repeatedly brought up.

P.S. Don't go petting strange cats, they might not be socialized and therefore may attack you.
in a year we won't remember this guy
I wish; I wouldn't be surprised if Andrew Scheer appoints him to the Senate were he to win the 2019 election (which he won't but still).
 

badcrumble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,732
in a year we won't remember this guy. he has no purchase among scholars, the right has zero influence over culture, and they've already hit their high watermark of political power
 

oledome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
I watched a few of his videos and now I'm getting red pill shit suggestions in my youtubes
 

dusteatingbug

Member
Dec 1, 2017
1,393
i guess you might fall for it.....if youre a tiny little bug that eats dust.

We have like three or four ppl in this thread who pretty obviously don't know wtf they're talking about who are passionately defending this dude. And he's not, like, some towering intellectual giant of conservatism, he's a fucking Deepak-Chopra level huckster except also a fash youtube celeb. That to me is pretty concerning.

edit - also nice reference
 

'3y Kingdom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,494
Losing? By what metric? He's famous and millions of people take him seriously. That there are a few critics is not 'losing'. I don't even like what he has to say 9/10, mostly it's neutral or whatever - but the reaction people have to him almost pushes me in his direction.

Another poster argued that Peterson had not received a free and fair debate from the left. If so, this thread serves an important role in showing just how badly such a structured and well moderated debate would go for Peterson were he to subject himself to it. Of course, that would require much more good faith from Peterson.

It's not that I disagree with the good criticism, it's not that I think the vapid criticism (he's a Nazi sympathizer etc) is indicative of him being right (well maybe a bit, some of y'all need to cool it on the loose usage of Nazi shit) - what really makes me see his path to 'success' is that so much of the criticism is sent towerst people who would dare be 'moved' by the things he says. If someone is like 'oh some of the stuff he said about taking control of my life and being an adult has really helped me get my shit together' - waaaaaay too many people are like 'lol you needed HIM for that? Some alt right supporting, pseudo intellectual? Well that says a lot about you, do you wear a fedora by any chance?'.

You're right that it's overly harsh to criticize people for simply finding some worth or comfort in Peterson's self-help mantras. Perhaps that scorn should be reserved for those who continue to support him despite reams of evidence to the contrary being repeatedly pointed out to them.
 

nick shaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
371
We have like three or four ppl in this thread who pretty obviously don't know wtf they're talking about who are passionately defending this dude. And he's not, like, some towering intellectual giant of conservatism, he's a fucking Deepak-Chopra level huckster except also a fash youtube celeb. That to me is pretty concerning.
are you adam friedland or not
 

SweetVermouth

Banned
Mar 5, 2018
4,272
Even the most well-intentioned person can sometimes be an asshole without noticing it.
Yes but this can be solved if ppl would say "hey that wasn't cool" and then they'd apologize like a normal person.
considering that the evidence to contrary is everywhere: which company didn't have any sexual harassment scandal recently? Or better yet do you think there are a lot of really ethical down to a t companies filled with well-intentioned people at all levels of hierarchy?
I do believe that the vast majority of people know what sexual harassment is and that they also don't support and commit it. You don't have to hold special courses to teach people how to behave next to women because by that time you've been through school. Now of course there are still cases of harassment because some people never grow older than 12 years but courses for them won't do shit. Just look at the people defending not using a seat belt in that thread a while ago. I have no idea how they made it to adulthood but they won't simply listen just because you explain it to them. I actually think firing and suing them is a good solution.
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
and if you actually read my post instead of willfully misinterpreting you will see what my point actually was.

My apologies if I am mistaken since you seem to be arguing in good faith and made some good points.

But I understood your post as "these rules (esp. 11 &12) are too vague!" so that's what I replied towards.
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
Nonsense; he's invalidated himself with his routine stupidity and obscene remarks (re: lobsters) that you've either chosen to ignore or shift the goalposts whenever one of them is repeatedly brought up.

P.S. Don't go petting strange cats, they might not be socialized and therefore may attack you.
.

I hope you are not religious if you take every printed rule THIS literal.
 

Goat Mimicry

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
So I guess everyone is still free to say whatever they want about Peterson then without fear of being censored or demonitized then.

Cool.

Just gonna quote you here:

As far as I can tell, Peterson is the liberal one here and the "dominant" left has al but abandoned actual liberalism (promoting diversity of thought and free and open debate)'

If Peterson is an actual liberal, by your definition that must mean he is actively doing the bolded, right? But just because he's not trying to get the author demonetized doesn't mean he's actually doing what you say he, as an actual liberal, should be doing (instead he's just getting mad and not having a nice open debate). And if he's not doing what an actual liberal should be doing, is it really fair to say that he's an actual liberal?
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
It's worth noting even his normally delusional subreddit has had an uptick in threads about the worrying trend of deifying him and his Twitter behavior. The veil is starting to fall, and unfortunately, the aimless losers who depend on him for guidance and their friends and families who use his lectures and books as a babysitter are going to have shattered young men on their hands, with nothing but empty self help platitudes to keep them from acting out.
 

Almawtaa

Member
Oct 29, 2017
309
Another poster argued that Peterson had not received a free and fair debate from the left. If so, this thread serves an important role in showing just how badly such a structured and well moderated debate would go for Peterson were he to subject himself to it. Of course, that would require much more good faith from Peterson.



You're right that it's overly harsh to criticize people for simply finding some worth or comfort in Peterson's self-help mantras. Perhaps that scorn should be reserved for those who continue to support him despite reams of evidence to the contrary being repeatedly pointed out to them.
Right, I don't think any of his non-obvious ideas would really hold up very well in rigorous debate either, and I'm hoping we see some of that in this upcoming thing I have seen pop up on my Facebook feed. Something about a 2 on 2 debate on free speech or something.

And I think the most successful way of getting people to shift away from him is to provide good, accessible alternatives.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,495
So I'm of the idea that rules should be pretty universal, but rules 11 and 12 are weird

  1. Stand up straight with your shoulders back
  2. Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping
  3. Make friends with people who want the best for you
  4. Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today
  5. Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them
  6. Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world
  7. Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)
  8. Tell the truth – or, at least, don't lie
  9. Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't
  10. Be precise in your speech
  11. Do not bother children when they are skateboarding
  12. Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street
Most of these are basic shit you'd see in This is What A Man Does posts on Facebook. Again, nothing special. Number 6 is dumb because you don't have to have Perfect Order to criticize something. Although, if Peterson's followers followed it, I'd be happy. Oversoul, is your house in Perfect Order?

11 and 12 are just... these rules are supposed to be gists. You should be able to get the general idea without having to read the rest of the chapter. But petting a cat every time you see one is supposed to do what? And don't bother children when they are skateboarding? Is it your children or do they belong to other parents? Is the idea that you should let children pursue their own hobbies and interests or is it that you are simply too uncool to even interrupt their nose grabs?

Reading the rules is like watching Samurai flamenco

Now, come on, please be reasonable.

There's no need to be mean to Samurai Flamenco by bringing it into this.

Losing? By what metric? He's famous and millions of people take him seriously. That there are a few critics is not 'losing'. I don't even like what he has to say 9/10, mostly it's neutral or whatever - but the reaction people have to him almost pushes me in his direction.

It's not that I disagree with the good criticism, it's not that I think the vapid criticism (he's a Nazi sympathizer etc) is indicative of him being right (well maybe a bit, some of y'all need to cool it on the loose usage of Nazi shit) - what really makes me see his path to 'success' is that so much of the criticism is sent towerst people who would dare be 'moved' by the things he says. If someone is like 'oh some of the stuff he said about taking control of my life and being an adult has really helped me get my shit together' - waaaaaay too many people are like 'lol you needed HIM for that? Some alt right supporting, pseudo intellectual? Well that says a lot about you, do you wear a fedora by any chance?'.

If you can't see why this is some disgusting shit, if you can't see why this sort of thing is going to lead to him and people like him becoming the next populist movement? Then yeah, this article is really on point, we deserve him.

Calling him a white supremacist isn't exactly vapid. This isn't the supposed issue of calling every conservative a Nazi or something (which, of course, happens a lot when the people being talked about are literally Nazis); the thread has covered some of the things he's said, been around, and supported, particularly on Twitter. That one tweet has been posted multiple times. And to get out ahead of it, you can't complain about any "guilt by association" when the person in question is totally fine with being around and supporting people with those kinds of beliefs. I can't really see much of a difference between a white supremacist and someone who just loves to hang out with and supports white supremacists.

Now, I think people should refrain from attacking appearances in particular; it's needless and also generally pretty insulting to people who agree with you as well. That being said, it is hard for me to see that as the reason a notable portion of his fans turn to someone like him. People already have their grudges against feminists. against women in general, etc. Insults may add to their grudges, or help justify them later, but they're almost certainly not going to be the sole reason and I think it's silly to act like this is the deciding factor.

Just look at Gamergate- people with grudges against feminists/women/leftists immediately seeing conspiracies that didn't exist, totally misinterpreting articles to act like they and "their games" were being attacked, accepting as an authority people who clearly wanted to manipulate them to gain an audience, etc.
 

Oversoul

Banned
Dec 20, 2017
533
By the way, since I've been defending Peterson (well, against the incorect citations and out of context quotes mostly, there are some valid points being made by some people in the thread) here are some things I disagree with him on.

-Casual sex can be done right and is not inherently harmfull
-Frozen is not feminist propaganda
-I'm 100% pro-abortion. Peterson seems te be conflicted on this.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
My apologies if I am mistaken since you seem to be arguing in good faith and made some good points.

But I understood your post as "these rules (esp. 11 &12) are too vague!" so that's what I replied towards.

I understand that he goes into more details in the respective chapters, but you can glean the general idea from the other rules. But 11 and 12 are oddly specific and you can't readily discern the idea he's presenting.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
I know this is not a popular thing in today's binary climate, but he also has a tendency to explore dark ideas thinking out loud without agreeing with them.

He's a firm believer in Carl Jung's "Shadow" thesis. after all.

His actual ideas he's promoting and spreading as his "truth" is pretty harmless stuff IMO.

Read 12 rules for life if you're curious. You might be surprised at the amount of nuance.
I've actually read 12 rules for life. No, it's not particularly nuanced, it's pretty terribly written and Peterson constantly goes of on a tangent in the middle of "the rules" into things that are literally not connected in any way.

The fucker somehow managed to even shove down his dumb anti-Marxist ramblings onto the skateboarding chapter.
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
By the way, since I've been defending Peterson (well, against the incorect citations and out of context quotes mostly, there are some valid points being made by some people in the thread) here are some things I disagree with him on.

-Casual sex can be done right and is not inherently harmfull
-Frozen is not feminist propaganda
-I'm 100% pro-abortion. Peterson seems te be conflicted on this.
I just hit Peterson Bingo and my prize is to go watch Frozen.
 

Ursus007

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
202
Lausanne, Swizterland
This discussion, as framed, is about whether women are inviting sexual advances by wearing makeup.



Sexual harassment in the workplace is a global problem. That includes Europe. In France, for instance, 56% of women reported being harassed at work.

Congratulations, you just agreed with Dr Peterson that we do not have rules at work behaviour figured out since 56% of women still report harassment and it'll take time to get those rules perfected if ever.

As for whether women are inviting sexual advances, how do you judge that? It's not conscious, maybe, but subconsciously - absolutely - makeup high heels and a dress makes you more attractive which in most office jobs doens't have anything to do with performance. So why do it at all? Takes lot of time... And if it's societal pressure, or self-confidence as some stated - then don't we have a big problem once again with not knowing where the line is? Would you rather talk to a nice female colleage in make-up or Ted from third floor who brushes his teeth every other Thursday? Are you sure that you're completely gender-neutral at workplace? I know Dr Petereson is provocative with female examples but there are male examples as well, not least, the first advice on most "how-to-make it at work" books is "Dress for the job you want". Doesn't the fact that it actually is an advice which seems to work tell you something about tthe complexity of workspace environment on blending in, on dominance, on nepotism, and yes - sexuality as well?

I must say that out of harassment cases that I heard on my training day 30-40% could be attributed not to the male colleagues but personal weakness or other very subjective criterion that triggered the remark. Would you take all women at their word without evidence at this point if 30% of accusations are baseless and call HR? How about 10%? 5%? What is the good solution? Lot of companies strive to do better, including mine, but it's damn hard.That's dangerous and ripe for abuse. But we should probably trust most of them because we DO have a problem with male dominance at workplace and not giving women equal opportunity, which I assume Dr Peterson is against as he's for equality of opportunity. Once again, the point of the debate which Peterson clearly states is as of today "we don't know" what the rules are, where are the limits. We don't have it figured out and we need more time for ideas to spread and take concrete shapes.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,176
UK
Read 12 rules for life if you're curious. You might be surprised at the amount of nuance.
I have read enough along with Maps Of Meaning to know they've got a lot of nuance to his pseudoscience shit.
Closer examination, however, reveals Peterson's ageless insights as a typical, if not archetypal, product of our own times: right-wing pieties seductively mythologized for our current lost generations.

Yup, and people are falling for these myths and hearkening back to older times where equality wasn't a thing.

People call this Jordan Peterson dude a "liberal" when he spouts order = male, chaos = female Jungian stuff? Apart from his yearning that we don't follow religion as much anymore, he really loves the evopsych neuro pseudoscience.

jordan_peterson_chaos_order_sexist_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5j.png

jordan_peterson_scared_of_females_1_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5c.png

jordan_peterson_scared_of_females_by_bondgeek-dc6fi56.png

jordan_peterson_pseudoscience_brain_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5e.png


These passages are from both of his books "Maps Of Meaning" and "The 12 Rules Of Life", of course he repeats his key points.

It always comes down to dating and lonely rejected men with conservative reactionaries.
jordan_peterson_dating_lol_by_bondgeek-dc6fi5t.png


Has Jordan Peterson done any PUA courses for the insecure white men that are his main audience?
Do you want to defend the nuance of the stuff he's done below?
Me, Jordan Peterson, an intellectual : I'm totally not alt-right inswear, I vehemently condemn such things

Also Me, Jordan Peterson, an intellectual : I hangout with actual white supremacists, have no issues with Kekistan, keep retweeting alt-right videos to my followers, I think women wish for brutal male dominion, I believe in actual neo Nazi conspiracy theories, I put out a actual hit list based on that conspiracy and also an against gay marriage specifically because of this conspiracy. I also directly endorse gamergate and promote it to my followers. Oh, also, women are responsible for harassment at the workplace.
 

ry-dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,180
Everything Peterson says that is factually wrong is always "taken out of context" or he meant something else entirely. Maybe he should actually follow his own rules in his book and be more precise in his speech.
Because when he is asked shit like whether or not he supports gay marriage and goes off on a tangent about how gay people are promiscuous or don't provide a optimal environment for children , there's only so many ways you can interpret that
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
How do you seriously entertain the other thoughts of someone who thinks Frozen is feminist propaganda
I mean he is a doctor and professor of clinical psychology. I don't doubt that he really does know some things about self-help, therapy, psychological issues, etc. And that is attractive to a lot of people. He just also happens to love to talk about things he's really, really bad at, like politics, (postmodern) philosophy, the humanities (and whatever he thinks Marxism is), etc.
 

'3y Kingdom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,494
Congratulations, you just agreed with Dr Peterson that we do not have rules at work behaviour figured out since 56% of women still report harassment and it'll take time to get those rules perfected if ever.

As for whether women are inviting sexual advances, how do you judge that? It's not conscious, maybe, but subconsciously - absolutely - makeup high heels and a dress makes you more attractive which in most office jobs doens't have anything to do with performance. So why do it at all? Takes lot of time... And if it's societal pressure, or self-confidence as some stated - then don't we have a big problem once again with not knowing where the line is? Would you rather talk to a nice female colleage in make-up or Ted from third floor who brushes his teeth every other Thursday? Are you sure that you're completely gender-neutral at workplace? I know Dr Petereson is provocative with female examples but there are male examples as well, not least, the first advice on most "how-to-make it at work" books is "Dress for the job you want". Doesn't the fact that it actually is an advice which seems to work tell you something about tthe complexity of workspace environment on blending in, on dominance, on nepotism, and yes - sexuality as well?

I must say that out of harassment cases that I heard on my training day 30-40% could be attributed not to the male colleagues but personal weakness or other very subjective criterion that triggered the remark. Would you take all women at their word without evidence at this point if 30% of accusations are baseless and call HR? How about 10%? 5%? What is the good solution? Lot of companies strive to do better, including mine, but it's damn hard.That's dangerous and ripe for abuse. But we should probably trust most of them because we DO have a problem with male dominance at workplace and not giving women equal opportunity, which I assume Dr Peterson is against as he's for equality of opportunity. Once again, the point of the debate which Peterson clearly states is as of today "we don't know" what the rules are, where are the limits. We don't have it figured out and we need more time for ideas to spread and take concrete shapes.

Can you answer the question of whether you think that wearing makeup indicates sexual consent? This shouldn't require multiple paragraphs on your part. Or multiple words.
 

Ursus007

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
202
Lausanne, Swizterland
Yes but this can be solved if ppl would say "hey that wasn't cool" and then they'd apologize like a normal person.

I do believe that the vast majority of people know what sexual harassment is and that they also don't support and commit it. You don't have to hold special courses to teach people how to behave next to women because by that time you've been through school. Now of course there are still cases of harassment because some people never grow older than 12 years but courses for them won't do shit. Just look at the people defending not using a seat belt in that thread a while ago. I have no idea how they made it to adulthood but they won't simply listen just because you explain it to them. I actually think firing and suing them is a good solution.

I'm sorry but unfortunately the reality is that people are mostly shit and the nice things you learned at school erode as people get into adulthood.

Mind you, most people don't condone harassment, or violence or anything like that, myself included but there's a world as it should be and the world as it is and we clearly do not take time to properly assess it and put it into perspective. There is a definite need to have more courses on behaviour with women, look at the gaming thread about women representation in gaming - we're woefully inadequate for that debate and this is supposed to be a progressive forum! Look at shitposts in this thread - the level of discourse and dismissal is huge. If execs at Google thought it was a good idea to invite models to talk to their employees - do I need to tell you that even the brightest minds in MIT can't solve it? And if you think it's because they are all geeks, let me tell you that some Business schools are even worse as they are filled with people who believe the own everything and are very opportunistic and dominating - which is maybe a good trait for businessman but it's the same train which makes people cross many lines - legal included.

And coming back to what you said: one woman may said it isn't cool, but for the other it is cool, for the third it's not cool but she's repressing and not capable of saying anything and the fourth is actually encouraging more. Where's the line? If it was as easy as you suggested we'd not have problem for the past half century.
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,332
I honestly have no idea how people can go to bat for this fucker after he said shit like.


"Feminists support the rights of Muslims because of their "unconscious wish for brutal male domination."


How does one read that and turn around and say:
"Nah, dude ain't racist/sexist"

???
 

Ursus007

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
202
Lausanne, Swizterland
Can you answer the question of whether you think that wearing makeup indicates sexual consent? This shouldn't require multiple paragraphs on your part. Or multiple words.

Yes I can.

The answer is No I don't think it does and neither does Dr Peterson.

If you read differently I suggest you watch the video and point to the timeframe where he states otherwise - his exact remark is he's not against wome wearing makeup straight after the point is raised.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Once again, the point of the debate which Peterson clearly states is as of today "we don't know" what the rules are, where are the limits. We don't have it figured out and we need more time for ideas to spread and take concrete shapes.

I don't understand by "we don't know" what the rules are especially when companies have their policies in place so you can know what the rules are.
 

ry-dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,180
Yes I can.

The answer is No I don't think it does and neither does Dr Peterson.

If you read differently I suggest you watch the video and point to the timeframe where he states otherwise - his exact remark is he's not against wome wearing makeup straight after the point is raised.

What's he saying then? Why even bring up the make up, if it doesn't matter.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,123
Limburg
Losing? By what metric? He's famous and millions of people take him seriously. That there are a few critics is not 'losing'. I don't even like what he has to say 9/10, mostly it's neutral or whatever - but the reaction people have to him almost pushes me in his direction.

It's not that I disagree with the good criticism, it's not that I think the vapid criticism (he's a Nazi sympathizer etc) is indicative of him being right (well maybe a bit, some of y'all need to cool it on the loose usage of Nazi shit) - what really makes me see his path to 'success' is that so much of the criticism is sent towerst people who would dare be 'moved' by the things he says. If someone is like 'oh some of the stuff he said about taking control of my life and being an adult has really helped me get my shit together' - waaaaaay too many people are like 'lol you needed HIM for that? Some alt right supporting, pseudo intellectual? Well that says a lot about you, do you wear a fedora by any chance?'.

If you can't see why this is some disgusting shit, if you can't see why this sort of thing is going to lead to him and people like him becoming the next populist movement? Then yeah, this article is really on point, we deserve him.

This is an ad-populist fallacy. Just because his bullshit resonates with droves of morons, doesn't make it more reasonable or something I should take seriously intellectually. Fucking Chuck Palahniuk is a popular author and I like fight club, but I don't take it seriously or act like the anarchist manifestos contained within are serious positions worth discussing.
 

SieteBlanco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
I wish Frozen had been feminist propaganda; maybe that way it would have been interesting instead of a whole pile of nothing.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,176
UK
I honestly have no idea how people can go to bat for this fucker after he said shit like.


"Feminists support the rights of Muslims because of their "unconscious wish for brutal male domination."


How does one read that and turn around and say:
"Nah, dude ain't racist/sexist"

???
I'm waiting for Oversoul to explain the nuance of that statement, how it's taken out of context, go on about how that makes Jordan Peterson a liberal, and how "I seriously cannot comprehend how you can view this man as remotely extreme".
 

Tankman

Member
Nov 2, 2017
63
Stephen Fry and Jordan Peterson (lol) versus two liberals

It's a trap, the resolution being argued is dumb and beside the point, and there are going to be a zillion more "Peterson OWNS liberal college professor!!!!" videos made out of it.
Seems like a pointless topic unless they strictly define what political correctness is. Will end up like his appearance with Sam Harris where he created his own definition of truth.
 

Ursus007

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
202
Lausanne, Swizterland
I don't understand by "we don't know" what the rules are especially when companies have their policies in place so you can know what the rules are.

The problem with what you state is that you generalise and that makes your point weak. That's how Peterson gets all these people, sweeping generalisation like: we have the rules in place, are easy to rebuke because we really don't:

Can you compliment a woman's dress? Shoes? Makeup?
Shake hands. kiss on cheeks? (cultural I know, but still)
Lunch with colleague/dinner with colleague? Elevator? Business parties dancing and alcohol?
Office romance? (most companies require disclosure but those are not actual behavioural rules)
Discuss marriage, kids? etc.

Come on, it's not that hard to understand Peterson's point. Now you may disagree like one of the posters and claim you know the rules, which is great, if dubious, but the reality based on a lot of evidence and my personal experience that Peterson is right about his core statements.

Real example. We have a person who makes terrible jokes about women and he's adored by them and everyone else, because everyone knows he's joking. But how do you treat that because some stuff he says is offensive? I personally find it offensive but my female coworker laughs at it? What if we complain and we lose the most brilliant guy in the office, father of twins, devoted husband becuase one woman was feeling uncomfortable? It's murky as fuck and it's not great but we need to keep raising the bar, just not overreacting which is what Peterson is deploring.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,798
Can someone explain the clusterfuck graphs and how his editor allowed such tripe to be published?
Is that guy really holding a PhD and were people actually sleeping when they were evaluating his work?
 

Ursus007

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
202
Lausanne, Swizterland
What's he saying then? Why even bring up the make up, if it doesn't matter.

The question was: is make-up =- sexual consent. No. Is it a sexual indicator: Yes, that's what make up is for. Is it relevant: maybe, we don't know. (That's according to what Peterson says in the video).

In the end of video the outtake is: even if make-up is a sexual indicator it probably shoudln't be banned from work (because let's face it it's kind of riddiculous, which was the point of using the example against the interviewer) and males should understand that it's harmless in 99% of cases. In fact the sexual interplay between male and femaly should be maintained (which is what make up is part of) but the line between interplay and offensive actions is not always 100% clear which is the main point.

If you need further explanations - just go watch the video.
 

I Don't Like

Member
Dec 11, 2017
14,908
I must say that out of harassment cases that I heard on my training day 30-40% could be attributed not to the male colleagues but personal weakness or other very subjective criterion that triggered the remark. Would you take all women at their word without evidence at this point if 30% of accusations are baseless and call HR? How about 10%? 5%? What is the good solution? Lot of companies strive to do better, including mine, but it's damn hard.That's dangerous and ripe for abuse. But we should probably trust most of them because we DO have a problem with male dominance at workplace and not giving women equal opportunity, which I assume Dr Peterson is against as he's for equality of opportunity. Once again, the point of the debate which Peterson clearly states is as of today "we don't know" what the rules are, where are the limits. We don't have it figured out and we need more time for ideas to spread and take concrete shapes.

I've read this like 5 times; still absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about. Harassment cases attributed not to male colleagues but personal weakness? What?
He's for "equality of opportunity"?

Let me post this quote for you again:

If you have your children in a school and they talk about equity--and there's a class--and they talk about equity, diversity, uhhh, inclusivity, white privilege, systemic racism, any of that, you take your children out of the class. They're not being educated, they're being indoctrinated. And there's absolutely no excuse for it.

The problem with what you state is that you generalise and that makes your point weak. That's how Peterson gets all these people, sweeping generalisation like: we have the rules in place, are easy to rebuke because we really don't:

Can you compliment a woman's dress? Shoes? Makeup?
Shake hands. kiss on cheeks? (cultural I know, but still)
Lunch with colleague/dinner with colleague? Elevator? Business parties dancing and alcohol?
Office romance? (most companies require disclosure but those are not actual behavioural rules)
Discuss marriage, kids? etc.

What are you even asking? You don't know the difference between shaking hands in a professional environment and complimenting a woman's dress?

What really pisses me off about this is that you and Peterson are the ones trying to blur the lines, claiming we're all ignorant to the rules. No, we aren't. You are. Reasonable, intelligent people who work in professional environments know the fucking rules.

The mental acrobatics you're going through to make this guy seem legitimate are impressive but they're not working.
 
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