PETERSON: I don't see how you could not think that. It's like, makeup is sexual display. That's what it's for. You say, I want to look more attractive. It's like, what do you mean more attractive exactly?
INTERVIEWER: So then what is a better outcome for you, then? A workplace with no sexual harassment, where women wear uniforms and don't wear makeup, much like the Maoists, which you were saying, or a sort of freer workplace in which sexual harassment is an inevitability because women wear high heels and makeup?
PETERSON: Well, I don't say that sexual harassment is an inevitability because women wear high heels and makeup, I didn't say that.
INTERVIEWER: Or that it is more likely.
PETERSON: I said that it... it contributes to the sexualization of the workplace.
INTERVIEWER: What's the difference between "more likely" and that?
PETERSON: [5 second pause] Okay, more likely, I'll go with that.
INTERVIEWER: So more likely -
PETERSON: Sure.
INTERVIEWER: Okay so which one do you prefer?
PETERSON: I don't prefer either of them. Oh... which one of those two would I prefer?
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
PETERSON: I would prefer, I'd prefer the one where people had the freedom.
INTERVIEWER: Alright so, within that, we've gotten to that point. That people should have freedom to wear makeup, right? But that that will inevitably lead to - not inevitably but is more likely that sexual harassment happens in the workplace? Isn't that sort of saying that -
PETERSON: Well -
INTERVIEWER: Like, how is that not saying that if women wear makeup in the -
PETERSON: That isn't what I said! Like, you're pushing it past what I said by a substantial margin. I said we don't understand the world that govern the - that interactions in the, between men and women in the workplace, right. We don't understand the rules. And so I was pushing a limit case, that's what I was doing. I wasn't saying women shouldn't wear makeup-
INTERVIEWER: No, I was never saying that you said that, either though-
PETERSON: That we could have a question about - there should be a question raised about that. And there is, often, I mean, companies have dress codes, let's say, you know. And they have a reason for that. But... but, the fact that we got tangled up in this conversation is an indication of exactly how difficult it is to have a reasonable, a reasonable conversation about exactly what rules should govern the interactions between men and women in the workplace.
INTERVIEWER: I would object to that a little bit, because I think the reason this conversation has been difficult is because, like, there are certain things where you'll just punt, and say I'm not saying that, and you'll try and be very hyper-specific and there are examples of that where I feel like you were right, like I feel like the Cathy Newman article, er, the Cathy Newman interview I felt like a lot of what you were, that what, that she put words in your mouth. I don't feel like I'm doing that, in fact I feel like I've been extremely careful not to -
PETERSON: And I'm, I'm definitely not accusing you of that -
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so,
PETERSON: I'm just saying these sorts of conversations are difficult, not that you're making it unduly difficult -
INTERVIEWER: Okay, sure. So, I guess, look, this is a test case, right, like we are not here to say "Jordan Peterson says that this is true," we are talking about a specific test case. Like, we agree - well, not we agree, but you are arguing - that makeup is sexualized, high heels are sexualized. Right?
PETERSON: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: That when they're in a workplace, that the workplace has a higher preponderance of becoming sexualized.
PETERSON: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: How is that - how do we not then take the next step and say that, ergo, if we want to get rid of sexual harassment in the workplace, that your belief is that women should not wear high heels or makeup in the workplace?
PETERSON: Oh, because there's other potential solutions. People could - well, you could allow for a certain level of sexual tension, and not act on it in a reprehensible manner. I mean look, if, let's say you're married to someone, right,
INTERVIEWER: I am married -
PETERSON: Right, so, you go to a party, you ever flirt?
INTERVIEWER: I mean, I don't go to parties.
PETERSON: Oh, okay. Do you ever flirt at all?
INTERVIEWER: [laughing] No, honestly not
PETERSON: Do you know how?
INTERVIEWER: But that is not - no, not really.
PETERSON: Okay, so [crosstalk] not so good. Well look. Look. One of the things that's enjoyable about the interactions between men and women, even of yr married, s an element of flirtatiousness that can underscore the interaction/ Okay. You dont wanna get rid of that. It's too tyrannical to get rid of that. But you're playing with fire. You have to know that you're playing with fire. And so there's going to be some sexual provocativeness in the workplace, let's say, both ways. You're playing with fire. And you have to know what the rules are. And we don't know what the rules are.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, what if I said, it's okay to flirt with your co-worker from time to time, but don't grab them, in the privates.
PETERSON: Well, that seems, you know, I think we can agree that that might be a reasonable start, right. But then, of course, you still have the problem of what constitutes acceptable flirting.
INTERVIEWER: Do you feel like the majority of people, then, in this Me Too movement right now that have been speaking out
PETERSON: Yeah
INTERVIEWER: Do you really think that all of them are saying that, you can't flirt at all, or do you think most of them are saying, you just can't grab me in the privates, becuase just as somebody who has also read about this and studied it quite a bit, who's followed it very intensely, it really does seem like the message is hey, you know, don't pull your robe off, don't grab me in the privates,
PETERSON: No, I think it's worse than that.
INTERVIEWER: You do.
PETERSON: Yeah, well look at what happened with NBC. Now you're supposed to report your co-workers if you suspect them of romantic entanglements.
INTERVIEWER: That's been true of American, like, that is one symptom-
PETERSON: But this is a policy, now. It's a horrible policy.
INTERVIEWER: It's a policy at one company-
PETERSON: It's NBC. It's part of a response to this, yeah, it's a repsonse to it. But it's a bad response. You said is it only about not being grabbed. It's like, no, it's not only about that.
INTERVIEWER: If it was only about not being grabbed would you be okay with it?
PETERSON: Well I'm not in favour of people being involuntarily grabbed, I'm not in favour of sexual harassment or sexual assault, not in the least. I already told you what I think. I'm a sexual conservative. I don't think people should have sex on the first date. I think they should be very careful with sex. Right, so I'm not in the camp of, right, let's grab each other under the mistletoe, at the Christmas party because what the hell. I'm not in that camp. I'm in the be bloody careful camp. And don't step out of line. And don't like, don't like, ah, have designs on your secretary when you hire her. I think that's all apalling. But I don't think we're capable of having an adult conversation about it. Not as a culture. Not even a bit.
INTERVIEWER: Let's say that the result of all of this, of the Me Too movement, is that there might be some polciies which might strike a sort of civil libertarian such as yourself or someone that believes in individual freedom, as a bit oppressive, but that women get stop getting grabbed in the privates-
PETERSON: I don't think that's what'll happen.
INTERVIEWER: That this is the collateral damage from that-
PETERSON: No, I don't-
INTERVIEWER: Is that not a win? Is that not a win for someone who thinks women should not be grabbed in the privates-
PETERSON: I don't think that's what'll happen.
INTERVIEWER: What evi- like, why?
PETERSON: Because I don't think the ideas that are being put forth have the kind of power that will transform people's behaviour in a reasonable manner.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, that's very vague. Can you-
PETERSON: No it's not-
INTERVIEWER: It is. You've essentially said that, that, I don't believe that the ideas are going to work.
PETERSON: They're not concrete enough.
INTERVIEWER: They're not concrete enough? I mean I think that almost every big media organization has specifically rewritten their policies in the past few months with very concrete examples of all the things that are not okay. I mean, like, do you not think that those are concrete enough?
PETERSON: Well maybe, it's possible, I don't know the policies well enough to be certain, ah, my sense generally is that, like, what would you say if, outraged mob activism generally doesn't translate very well into intelligent policy-
INTERVIEWER: But it does lead to change.
PETERSON: We'll see.
