The Orville |OT| Open this pickle jar for me.

Quixzlizx said:

What do you mean "laid out in the episode?" It seemed pretty clear to me he was keeping her as a prisoner?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

ok, but how many episodes of Star Trek have you seen where a character saves the protagonist, does not actively harm them, and then the protagonist kills them?

there's no reason why we are supposed to hate the captor. the captor was not actively torturing her or preparing her to be eaten. he is keeping her from danger that is outside. the doctor should have at least talked to him or trapped him in the room instead of straight out murdering the guy.

instead the doctor comes out of this looking like a scumbag doctor

the captor didn't have to save her at all. he could have left her out there and he'd still be alive.

Medalion said:

I and a couple of other people had the same exact issue... but in my view, she killed not just the captor, but another guy in the forest

Do no harm my ass

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

basically.

davepoobond said:

ok, but how many episodes of Star Trek have you seen where a character saves the protagonist, does not actively harm them, and then the protagonist kills them?

there's no reason why we are supposed to hate the captor. the captor was not actively torturing her or preparing her to be eaten. he is keeping her from danger that is outside. the doctor should have at least talked to him or trapped him in the room instead of straight out murdering the guy.

instead the doctor comes out of this looking like a scumbag doctor

the captor didn't have to save her at all. he could have left her out there and he'd still be alive.



basically.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It sounds like you're suffering from Stockholm Syndrome by proxy.

Keeping someone locked up in captivity and not letting them leave is actively harming them.

Quixzlizx said:

It sounds like you're suffering from Stockholm Syndrome by proxy.

Keeping someone locked up in captivity and not letting them leave is actively harming them.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

there's all sorts of plot devices they could have used to make this actually apparent, yet they decided to subtly nudge the audience into passively thinking that being kept in a room for like 20 minutes is harming her? i don't buy it.

she was not visibly languishing, she was just yelling about not being able to help her children, in and of itself was not enough for me to agree with her killing the guy. she's a doctor and doesn't offer to help the guy get off the planet? she has a greater responsibility than, say, Isaac or her children to offer help to people in need.

davepoobond said:

there's all sorts of plot devices they could have used to make this actually apparent, yet they decided to subtly nudge the audience into passively thinking that being kept in a room for like 20 minutes is harming her? i don't buy it.

she was not visibly languishing, she was just yelling about not being able to help her children, in and of itself was not enough for me to agree with her killing the guy. she's a doctor and doesn't offer to help the guy get off the planet? she has a greater responsibility than, say, Isaac or her children to offer help to people in need.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I find it pretty disturbing on your part that you couldn't tell she was being treated like a prisoner who wasn't allowed to leave, unless you were doing something else and only paying half-attention while you were watching. Like, I hope you don't think it's OK to treat people like that in reality.

I had the same initial reaction in that I was surprised that the doctor killed her captor. The thing is since the show is such a rip of Trek, the issue is more not that anything she did was incorrect but it was different than the usual trek trope. She was perfectly in the moral right to kill that dude and the cannibals in the forest. It's just that trek normally handles that captor differently. In the real world if somebody kidnaps you that person is a psycho. And you have the right to do anything to escape.

In Trek though, they probably would have eventually had that character reason her way out of the situation, almost trying to make you feel a slight sympathy for the captor. Like oh he had a family and a wife and they were killed by the virus and he's really a good guy but just been driven a bit crazy by the apocalypse and he's super lonely. In the pure trek version he finally releases her and helps her fight off the cannibals until he is shot by one therefore sacrificing his life to make up for the initial kidnapping.

In this one though he is just treated as how you would traditionally treat a kidnapper. He's a psycho. I think the Orville approach in this case is fine. I think the trek version that I argue is arguably a bit naive in this day and age.

davepoobond said:

Is that something they laid out in the episode though? Kind of escalated to "kill him" faster than I would have liked. A Doctor is supposed to preserve life no matter who they are.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I can see that, but if I lost my kids on a planet full of crazy people, I'd be killing people trying to imprison or attack me. Also, she had very little options, a projectile weapon and maybe a knife. When given the option she clearly chose to preserve life, but when she had no other option, she did the smart thing.

Quixzlizx said:

I find it pretty disturbing on your part that you couldn't tell she was being treated like a prisoner who wasn't allowed to leave, unless you were doing something else and only paying half-attention while you were watching. Like, I hope you don't think it's OK to treat people like that in reality.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

don't make it about me, man. we're talking about fiction. there are such things as plot devices and storytelling to make you feel a certain way. we didn't have to feel ambiguous about this at the end. i am clearly not the only one who thinks there is some moral gray area needing to be discussed here considering the writers of the show didn't think it was worth including.

1) this is a first contact situation. the guy is an alien species, living in a post-apocalyptic situation.

2) there was no effort on her part to reason with him and offer an exchange to allow her to leave; there had to be at least some sort of benefit propositioned. A one-way ticket off of this poison water moon

3) why did they bother even having this character when they could have had her just fending for herself and going rambo on all of the cannibals?

4) there was no reflection on what she went through, we don't know what the character was thinking. her report wasn't turned in because maybe she had to think up a way to make herself not look so awful here?


the point is, it didn't need to be ambiguous. if the message they are trying to send here is that imprisonment against your will no matter the reason, even if the captor was saving your life, then they should have made that clear.

leaving it ambiguous makes people have more than one reaction.

She did try to reason with him. She told him they had a ship that could try to help with the cure. Or take him some place else. She told him she had kids out there that were vulnerable on a planet that had a killer virus and cannibals rolling around. That's all you can do. I mean you can stretch it out for days if that's the way the episode wanted to go but her kids could have also died at any minute out there. Her actions are totally defensible imo.

Also, I'm pretty sure a doctor's oath just means that it's immoral/unethical to use your medical skills to harm people. It's not some sort of indoctrination that turns you into a pacifist who isn't allowed to act in self-defense.

davepoobond said:

don't make it about me, man. we're talking about fiction. there are such things as plot devices and storytelling to make you feel a certain way. we didn't have to feel ambiguous about this at the end. i am clearly not the only one who thinks there is some moral gray area needing to be discussed here considering the writers of the show didn't think it was worth including.

1) this is a first contact situation. the guy is an alien species, living in a post-apocalyptic situation.

2) there was no effort on her part to reason with him and offer an exchange to allow her to leave; there had to be at least some sort of benefit propositioned. A one-way ticket off of this poison water moon

3) why did they bother even having this character when they could have had her just fending for herself and going rambo on all of the cannibals?

4) there was no reflection on what she went through, we don't know what the character was thinking. her report wasn't turned in because maybe she had to think up a way to make herself not look so awful here?


the point is, it didn't need to be ambiguous. if the message they are trying to send here is that imprisonment against your will no matter the reason, even if the captor was saving your life, then they should have made that clear.

leaving it ambiguous makes people have more than one reaction.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I didn't think the showrunners needed to spell out that "imprisonment against your will is always wrong." I already knew that.

And I felt some sympathy for the guy when he was killed, but I still understood that he was acting like a psycho and she was acting in self-defense.

Edit: If I see a young woman wearing a skimpy outfit in a bad neighborhood at night, so I then kidnap her and lock her in my basement to keep her from being attacked by a rapist, I'm still the psycho even if she ends up stealing my gun, shooting me, and escaping.

FeliciaFelix said:

The trailers misrepresent the show. It's more like Star Trek show about the Federation's B and C students. Consequences are also a tad more realistic than on TNG but it still has a positive outlook. They do ST stories and sometimes goes for things Picard would not do, and that helps it become it's own show.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Krejlooc said:

It's pretty much exactly like TNG, except the awkward moments where the cast would smile into the camera in silence during whimsical moments in TNG are replaced with very light American Dad style humor.

The comedy in this show is definitely low key most of the time and not the real driving force behind the show. I did it, though.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I watched the first three episodes. Its different from what i imagined it to be but feels a bit like Galaxy Quest (which is the best Star Trek movie ever) in terms of heart.

The humor works quite well, and i have only watched 3 episodes. Low key enough but still gives me a chuckle without really taking away from the more serious parts. I care more about the characters after this brief time than for anyone in STD. Truely a TNG tribute with a more modern twist and some jokes for accessibility.

The jokes on contemporary pop culture are mostly funny (Kardashian zoo comes to mind) but unnecessary imo, the show does not need them.

Doctor didn't even threaten him, "Release me or else". Just straight up hid in wait for the stabbing, then shot him.

I knew I recognized the actor that played the captor!

He was the Klingon 3rd in command on the Pagh in TNG!

I felt it strange that she killed the captor as well.. All of his established motives throughout the episode seemed pretty clear up until the end:

1) He rescued her from the crash site while she was unconscious, using the rationale that she would have died/been eaten if someone else had found her first...

• This sets up fairly clearly that he was trying to do the right thing from the get-go. He didn't torture or rape or eat or do any harm to her here, he basically gave her shelter in a safe space (off the ground, in an apartment)
• His first lines in the episode are "You must be hungry", "My name is drogen, you are very lucky I found you. You're the only one i found in the wreckage"

2) He brought her food and told her to eat, since food is a scarcity around here, he gave her a fairly hefty portion and could have easily made her starve.

• Again, further solidifying that he's trying to help her or at least keep her strong / away from death.
• "its a safe place, I told you, you're in a safe place." -- "You haven't eaten", "Food is scarce, don't waste it."

3) She prompted him with requests to let her out to find her kids, saying that they could be in danger. He already knows this because

• "No one survives out there for long"
  "It won't matter, there was a war, the enemy put poloxis in the water supply, a biological weapon, millions were killed. A few survived, but many are sick, despeate, violent. They've resorted to canibalism"
• From his perspective, they're already dead. Why let her out and risk her dying too? He said he was one of the only who prepared for the coming war, he has food, water, weapons.. He's basically the equivalent to the people in the US who have fallout shelters.
• When the doctor pressed for release saying she could find a cure, he said "there is no cure" -- from his perspective, the knowledge he has, this is true TO HIM. There is no cure. Why would he believe a random alien?
• "I'm your only hope for survival" -- further reinforcing that he has saved her and is keeping her captive (for now) in a safe place

4) When she hurt herself, he came running asking "What happened?" -- She then requested her medication, she played on the fact that he was alone, touching his hand and basically implying that she might get with him if he retrieves her medicine.

• He goes and gets the medicine. Whether his lonliness had taken over at this point, or simply his willingness to help, is unclear.
• This was his last interaction with her before she murdered him.

5) When he returns with the medicine, he is unarmed (well, he had a weapon, but it was not drawn), has zero intent or motive to harm her, yet the doctor stabs him. SHE takes the first strike.

• it is only after this point where he becomes violent. This person he's seemingly helped and kept in safety then steals his weapon, and while yes, he charged at her (self defense!), she shoots and kills him.

If you were the 'captor', and you found an unconscious alien life form that also had a weapon on her, and brought her back to safety, would you not lock her in a safe space until you determined her motives and her intent? Yes, it's perceived by the viewer as her being imprisoned, but how many of you would willingly trust a stranger, especially in a war-torn post-apocalyptic scenario blindly?

From his perspective, and rightfully so, he went out of his way to rescue a crash victim, keep her safe, fed, and healthy (agreeing to go out and risk getting her medication), only to be murdered by the person he rescued.


The doctor straight up killed a dude.. I get she did it out of fear, but as a viewer, she was not morally in the right.

DrEvil said:

I felt it strange that she killed the captor as well.. All of his established motives throughout the episode seemed pretty clear up until the end:
If you were the 'captor', and you found an unconscious alien life form that also had a weapon on her, and brought her back to safety, would you not lock her in a safe space until you determined her motives and her intent? Yes, it's perceived by the viewer as her being imprisoned, but how many of you would willingly trust a stranger, especially in a war-torn post-apocalyptic scenario blindly?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

If you are a decent person you let them go. It's fine that you helped them. It's fine that you brought them back to safety. It's fine that you explained the situation and state of the world to them. The moment she tells you that she has kids out there that she needs to go find, you explain the dangers to her and let her go.

You are not her protector. And if you are leery of her, keep an eye on her as she leaves or tell her that next time she comes back, he will have to kill her because he can't trust anybody. What you never ever do is keep that person prisoner. The moment you do that, you have crossed over into being an enemy and an obstacle that is stopping someone from saving the lives of family members.

Rescuing an unconscious crash victim: Good deed

Keeping the crash victim as a prisoner and not letting her leave: Criminal and immoral. It doesn't matter whether he thinks he's doing the best thing for her.

The captor was basically an extreme "Nice Guy" alien: "I'm here to protect you, and I know what's best for you, so I'm going to take away your freedom and agency. Why are you so ungrateful, when I'm doing so much for you?"

BECAUSE YOU'RE KEEPING ME PRISONER IN A DUNGEON, YOU LOONY CREEP.

The Doctor had two children lost on a hostile alien planet to think about, she tried to get through to him that she had to go, he wouldn't listen and threatened her (he made it obvious he was willing to get violent to keep her there even if he didn't explicitly say it). He was insane.

She tried to reason with him. He just didn't care.

What I would argue is that the kids on poison planet with crazy cannibals makes this a time sensitive issue. If they weren't there then what the captor is doing, is still equally wrong, but maybe in that kind of episode you can do something where she reasons with the captor and eventually wins him over in some different kind of plotline. In that scenario I'm ignoring the fact that he is a psycho and is more the "lonely" alien type. It's moot though. She doesn't have time to play around with either psychotic alien or lonely alien. She needs to leave. Immediately.

Stoney Mason said:

What I would argue is that the kids on poison planet with crazy cannibals makes this a time sensitive issue. If they weren't there then what the captor is doing, is still equally wrong, but maybe in that kind of episode you can do something where she reasons with the captor and eventually wins him over in some different kind of plotline. In that scenario I'm ignoring the fact that he is a psycho and is more the "lonely" alien type. It's moot though. She doesn't have time to play around with either psychotic alien or lonely alien. She needs to leave. Immediately.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Agreed. She is a mother whose sons are in mortal danger. One of them is dying of a sickness she is the only one who can cure, there is no time for niceties.

I can't see Bashir or Crusher killing them
and The Doctor, faggedabouit

Why didn't she just try to escape when he was gone? Like, she got to the living room so she was able to leave, just open the door and go to the shuttle.

She straight up murdered that dude.

She even gave her kid the speech of "they may kill but we don't".

If I was the captain of the Orville, I'd have her shot into space.

She hasn't made her report to Ed yet, so I'm guessing we're going to revisit this particular episode.

The Blob will find out her secret, and then she'll beg him to keep it quiet, he'll blackmail her for a date or sex and hilariousity ensues

Stoney Mason said:

If you are a decent person you let them go. It's fine that you helped them. It's fine that you brought them back to safety. It's fine that you explained the situation and state of the world to them. The moment she tells you that she has kids out there that she needs to go find, you explain the dangers to her and let her go.

You are not her protector. And if you are leery of her, keep an eye on her as she leaves or tell her that next time she comes back, he will have to kill her because he can't trust anybody. What you never ever do is keep that person prisoner. The moment you do that, you have crossed over into being an enemy and an obstacle that is stopping someone from saving the lives of family members.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I get this point of view, but if you put yourself in that scenario, and everything you've known about your home world, and the situation that has unfolded to get you to the point where you have a fallout bunker and are fighting to stay alive/healthy, if you came across another healthy individual, you'd more than likely want to keep them around.

Think about it this way: Everyone else out in the wild is sick, has boils, and are eating each other. He comes across another healthy individual who is not suffering from any of these effects. She is either
A) Like him and has her own fallout shelter
or
B) Not from around here.

So, he probably figured she fell into the latter category, informs her of what is going on and why he's keeping her in 'a safe place', and then basically implies that it's pointless to even try to go out and get them because nothing survives long out there. Everything in his being knows that if they were in the woods overnight, they're likely dead. If not, then infected with a virus that to him, there is no cure.




I get the notion that him keeping her there was wrong and crossed him into being an 'enemy' in her eyes, but to him, he's afraid that she isn't prepared for what's out there, and is simply trying to protect her from falling into the same fate as everyone else out there. There aren't likely many 'healthy' people left in the world. There's survival instinct, and then there's rational thought. If the world was a viral nightmare, you'd likely be relying more on your survival instincts at that point (especially depending how long it's been since you've seen a 'normal' person) rather than being like "yeah, I should let her go.. she's the only other healthy female i've seen in years, but yeah sure, she's got kids that are probably dead.. have fun, good luck, don't get space herpes."


I mean, look at LOST, same thing when they found Desmond in the hatch... there's isolation and then there's the thought of being the only survivor.. It fucks with your head.. I don't expect anyone would think clearly after something like that.

Objective arguments are fine and well, and having never been in that position myself, I don't know what I'd do... But as an observer, the 'captor' was just trying to save her from the world he lived in... whether she knew that, had the time for it, or not.

The best I can say is that for an episode I wasn't actually that much of a fan of, this discussion makes me want to rewatch it, to make sure I feel the same as I felt the first time I did. So that's something at least.

;-)

I didn't find the pilot funny at all-but that seems to be my experience with most Seth McFarlane projects. Should I keep watching?

Dalek said:

I didn't find the pilot funny at all-but that seems to be my experience with most Seth McFarlane projects. Should I keep watching?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

There are better funny moments as it goes on but I would never say its overly funny for me in that way as I'm generally not a big on MacFalane style humour. It's more enjoyable honestly as just a TNG clone with occasional light moments. Think of it that way and you'll enjoy it more. Also I thought the first episode was probably the worst one.

Dalek said:

I didn't find the pilot funny at all-but that seems to be my experience with most Seth McFarlane projects. Should I keep watching?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Well it's not a comedy but the "comedy" bits are toned down a lot in the later episodes, so if you enjoyed everything else then yes keep watching.

Himynameischris said:

Well it's not a comedy but the "comedy" bits are toned down a lot in the later episodes, so if you enjoyed everything else then yes keep watching.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Ok I'll keep watching. Thanks.

I'm doing a rewatch of TNG and just watched The Most Toys (S3E22) Data is put in a collection, he asks multiple times to be let go, attempts escape, and is holding a weapon on the man holding him against his will when he's saved by the Enterprise. O'Brien says that the weapon was in a state of discharge in the transporter, but later Data says it must have been a malfunction. While not exactly like this Orville episode, it's similar.

I really don't think the doctor's actions were uncalled for, even if her captor thought he was taking care of her he was holding her against her will, she'd asked multiple times to be let go, had explained why, and he still kept her. Since she's clearly an alien and not from his planet he should have realized she had superior tech and at the very least could get him off the planet, but he didn't even try that route, he just kept her locked in a room. If, for whatever reason, he didn't realize she was an alien and thought that she was from his planet, he should have just let her go once she was awake. She'd clearly been taking care of herself up until that moment, so if he thought she was from his planet, then he should think that she could continue to take care of herself. His actions were clearly not benevolent. I'm honestly not understanding all the sympathy for him or why people are judging her actions so harshly.

Yeah there is no reason for him to hold her, she's an adult and after telling her the risks and what's out there if she still wants to leave then he should have let her.

https://twitter.com/TheOrville/status/927741839813197824

So reddit AMA with Adriane Palicki on Thursday for those interested.

I am actually surprised how much I am enjoying this show.

So almost everyone seems to like this now? Cool! I remember the first reactions being very lukewarm but it seems Orville found its groove since then. I haven't seen anything but I'm interested.

I enjoy it a lot more than Discovery.

I always figured this show was going to be up my alley because I do enjoy Seth's works for the most part, and know he is a huge Star Trek fan, and when I heard the people he was bringing aboard... it was fairly apparent how much of an homage this was, than a pardoy

Medalion said:

it was fairly apparent how much of an homage this was, than a pardoy

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Well no, pre-launch marketing for the show was fully focused on comedy, and the pilot was not welcomed that warmly.

I meant... apparent to me... yes the marketing campaign was very misleading, even Seth admitted this during Comic-Con where I watched a bunch of interviews with him and the cast

Yeah I really thought it was going to be family guy in space and even the pilot kinda pushed it a bit that way but after that it's really been it's own thing and I'm really enjoying it.

Tonight's episode: "Cupid's Dagger"

I think Bortus just became my favorite character with that Celine Dion.

Just finished last week's episode. Was pretty great.

Is that Rob Lowe?

Haha, yeah I think that is Rob Lowe.

Edit: I think I know what's going on. Gotta be the artifact or blue guy giving something off.

So is this blue guy slipping everybody roofies or something? I'm not quite sure what's going on here.

NinjaGarden said:

Is that Rob Lowe?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yes. And now I want to know if it was him in episode 1 too.

SO this episode is basicially The Orville recycling The Naked Time/The Naked Now.

I really enjoyed that episode. They are definitely hitting their stride and balancing humor and serious scifi.

Great episode. The funniest one for me so far.

That was a lot of fun. I didn't think it would be because Trek has a long history of these types of episodes being stinkers but they managed to pull off the comedic elements here. The only thing I *really* didn't like was the very end, implying that Grayson had no choice over her decision to cheat on Mercer. That's a cop-out. On the other hand, maybe we can FINALLY move on from this baggage now.

jb1234 said:

That was a lot of fun. I didn't think it would be because Trek has a long history of these types of episodes being stinkers but they managed to pull off the comedic elements here. The only thing I *really* didn't like was the very end, implying that Grayson had no choice over her decision to cheat on Mercer. That's a cop-out. On the other hand, maybe we can FINALLY move on from this baggage now.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I got the feeling Darulio was lying to her. Just trying to make her feel like it wasn't her fault. Either way, Rob Lowe is always great.