Why do so many liberals ability to care stop at trans people?

Eduardo Corrochio said:

Because trans people quite literally exist within the margins of society.

People have female family and friends, they either have, or are close to people who have kids who are potential victims of a shooting, and whilst it's trickier with race, most people work with minorities or at least see and interact with them in their day to day lives.

What that means is that the persecution of any of those groups is real and confronting.

By contrast the trans community is so small and relatively invisible. Add to that the fact that being born black or female is something people understand whereas many people still have difficulty wrapping their head around being transgender.

It's harder to relate to and thus care about for many.

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This is exactly it. It's why GLAAD continues to talk year after year about how visibility is key towards making progress with LGBTQ issues and acceptance. Same as it is with any other marginalized group. You think most people were talking about starving kids in Africa before some white women started singing about them on TV? It's hard for people to care deeply about any issue they have no connection to or just can't relate to. Creating/reading threads on ERA isnt as effective as regularly interacting with Trans people in every day life.

And with regards to ERA specifically, the number of people who feel comfortable or are knowledgeable enough to speak on certain topics can vary immensely. The trans community is a small one, even on ERA. Take away from that the number of people who are not willing to get in lengthy discussions with people in multiple threads, the number of people who choose to stick to just one or two social issues, the number of people put off by the handful of trans advocates who have a history of being extremely combative, etc etc. There are a lot of factors to consider first before accusing ERA liberals of ignoring or downplaying trans issues.

Zelas said:

the number of people put off by the handful of trans advocates who have a history of being extremely combative

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this shit will never not piss me off
like sorry we exited our cave and y'all can't handle it

I think a lot of people struggle to understand transgender because so many people don't really understand what gender is in the first place.

Opto said:

This needs to be pinned and probably required reading for membership.

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This would not be a terrible idea

Cream, I won't say the mod action wasn't justified but your voice is really gonna be missed :/

SageShinigami said:

I didn't know Cream was trans. I definitely misgendered her once w/o knowing and now I feel like an ass. Damn. Also, wow she jumped out the window to snap on a few tools? :(

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I feel like the post that got her banned was a misunderstanding of what people were asking for tbh. Like, I know myself and a few others asked her to post some illustrative posts to show what she felt were times when people who were normally liberal had said stuff that was not supportive of trans issues or minimizing them and such. I think you can discuss how posts are questionable in their content without calling out specific posters but maybe she felt that we were asking for names?

Sorry if I was part of leading you down that path, Cream, definitely wasn't my intent there. I just didn't see how we could discuss this particular topic without citing examples. :/

I will miss you Cream.

1. I would say Resetera is incredibly woke when it comes to trans issues
2. Trans issues by their nature affect a much smaller number of people than climate change, gun violence, race issues, etc. and consequently receive less attention and understanding.

Dang :( Shame--when someone is passionate and frustrated and just trying to make this a better place.

SageShinigami said:

I didn't know Cream was trans. I definitely misgendered her once w/o knowing and now I feel like an ass.

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Don't. Cream was bigender.

MiraculousSwidge said:

this shit will never not piss me off
like sorry we exited our cave and y'all can't handle it

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Fighting to be recognized, understood and respected? Whoa there, please settle down

It's almost like there's a difference between visibility and outright hostility.

MiraculousSwidge said:

this shit will never not piss me off
like sorry we exited our cave and y'all can't handle it

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People can make a point without making it a regular occurrence of being warned/banned. It's not merely a matter of people not being able to handle it when clearly lines are being crossed.

Zelas said:

People can make a point without making it a regular occurrence of being warned/banned. It's not merely a matter of people not being able to handle it when clearly lines are being crossed.

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Arguments like this will always remind me of this comic.

Cream got perma'd? damn.

Talk about Trans issues but very softly lest you make someone feel uncomfortable lmao what is this bullshit

MiraculousSwidge said:

Arguments like this will always remind me of this comic.

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What? Sometimes, it honestly is best to just take a step back.

Hierophant said:

Talk about Trans issues but very softly lest you make someone feel uncomfortable lmao what is this bullshit

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Huh? Who is saying that.

Hierophant said:

Talk about Trans issues but very softly lest you make someone feel uncomfortable lmao what is this bullshit

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Or

Just speak about them like you would any other issue without attacking people.

ArrogantBastard said:

Huh? Who is saying that.

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Scroll up.

Hierophant said:

Talk about Trans issues but very softly lest you make someone feel uncomfortable lmao what is this bullshit

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Just don't say anything stupid on the matter haha, it's can't be that hard for people, right?

Daysean said:

Just don't say anything stupid on the matter haha, it's can't be that hard for people, right?

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I mean is it really that stupid to specifically call posters out for being transphobic though?

Eduardo Corrochio said:

Or

Just speak about them like you would any other issue without attacking people.

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How do you speak to someone who doesn't see you as a human being? Someone who won't consider your points as valid because you choose to identify as another gender? Someone who repeatedly downplays the struggles that trans people have in day to day life?

do we really have posters here who don't consider trans people human beings?.. it seems like something people would be banned instantly for, and for good reason.

cops got this wrong

rip

Hierophant said:

How do you speak to someone who doesn't see you as a human being? Someone who won't consider your points as valid because you choose to identify as another gender? Someone who repeatedly downplays the struggles that trans people have in day to day life?

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This thread is about people not being as supportive as they could be about trans issues (but still supportive) on this board.
I don't think you're talking about the same people?

blame space said:

do we really have posters here who don't consider trans people human beings?.. it seems like something people would be banned instantly for, and for good reason.

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You have to question why so many trans people on this website feel that their concerns aren't being heard and this place is almost apathetic to their plight, to the point where Cream (and at least one other Trans person I know) gets them self banned for it.

Eduardo Corrochio said:

Or

Just speak about them like you would any other issue without attacking people.

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When a good portion of humanity does not considers you a human, when your daily life is a struggle, is kinda hard to do that, not all have that privilege.

The ones who post hateful stuff blatantly, 4chan style get banned quickly, but if you type a wall of text and Jordan Peterson your way around actually saying anything bigoted outright, you stand a decent chance of getting away with it.

SaltyGeneralTso said:

I mean is it really that stupid to specifically call posters out for being transphobic though?

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Least Cream could do is link to specific posts made by those users. That being said she isn't a mod and we have a report button.

Also I think decades of conditioning by media and similar terms has only added to the confusion to the general public who rarely dig deeper on issues yet alone issues that don't affect them or people they know.

To be honest, it's very hard for me not to see decisions made regarding Cream as evidence of her initial claim.

Even if not in intent, then definitely in terms of optics

The Kree said:

Scroll up.

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Help me out, I ain't seeing shit.

Hierophant said:

You have to question why so many trans people on this website feel that their concerns aren't being heard and this place is almost apathetic to their plight, to the point where Cream (and at least one other Trans person I know) gets them self banned for it.

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Numerous posts in the tread addressed the question Cream posed in a thoughtful and respectful way.

All were ignored for the sake of attacking people who didn't even post.

From what I've noticed the difference between sex and gender is like a fucking math equation for lots of people.

blame space said:

do we really have posters here who don't consider trans people human beings?.. it seems like something people would be banned instantly for, and for good reason.

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I think it's less that you have posters not consider Trans people as human beings, and more that they don't consider them "normal" human beings which probably reduces their interest in threads about Trans issues.

SolicitorPirate said:

To be honest, it's very hard for me not to see decisions made regarding Cream as evidence of her initial claim.

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I disagree completely. The thread was about apathy. People are apathetic because whether you like it or not, transgender individuals and their plight is a "modern" one. The overwhelming majority of individuals probably have never truly interacted with a transgender individual. Hell, I'll call myself out, prior to this past school year I hadn't. Because I was ignorant as fuck I was nervous about engaging at all. Guess what, that is most people. You have a two page thread so far, where no one is being attacked except those who are "bystanders". You have individuals, numerous in fact laying out exactly what I'm saying to you.

Apathy is supposedly what this thread was about, but it wasn't really. It was about some shit heels and the OP called people to the mat to answer for themselves in an exceptionally public and aggressive manner.

So help me out, how is it evidence of Cream's claim?

I feel like the defenses for Rowling, Gervais, and Chapelle are typical responses for celebrities who turn out to have shitty views when the fans really don't want them to. You always go through that period of denial first. I definitely could understand trans people feeling hurt about that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that people value the celebrities above trans rights, as it happens no matter what shitty view the celebrity happens to hold (a good example was the period when there were skeptical defenders for Al Franken last year, because there was a time when it was ambiguous whether he had a problem or had just made a few dumb decisions in the past. It wasn't about victim blaming or throwing women under the bus, it was about saddened disappointment, a small amount of denial, and a bit of benefit of the doubt as the public waited for more evidence to boil up).

As a whole, trans issues are going through the same sweeping change as LGB issues. North Carolina has a Democratic governor entirely because of the blowback from a transphobic law passed by his GOP predecessor.

I'd agree that there needs to be more believing of historically oppressed groups when they say something is fucked up rather than questioning, but here I wouldn't say the particular issues called out by the OP come from a place of transphobia (trans ban 1 got a LOT of air-time. Trans ban 2 was played out. Muslim bans 2 and 3 being met with a collective yawn is no sign of Islamophobia, just that you know it's not going to work so there's no feeling of threat or outrage).

1. Doesn't affect that many people in practice. However compassionate a person might sound theyre still interested more in the things that have applicability to their lives. I dont have any trans friends... So while I empathize in a general sense... I dont really have much to say or add to a complex issue.

2. Trans issues are complex... And ignorance abounds because of that complexity. Resetera has members that dont really disambiguate between ignorance and ill intent. This has the tendency to chill conversation.

So... basically to me... who has no direct relationship with trans people or the community... their strife is as distant as the suffering of many other people around the world been unjustly impugned for who they are. Like for example... the rohingya people. I'll read... But other than empathic outrage... what can I say that would add to the conversation?

Hierophant said:

You have to question why so many trans people on this website feel that their concerns aren't being heard and this place is almost apathetic to their plight, to the point where Cream (and at least one other Trans person I know) gets them self banned for it.

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As the community manager and a transgender person myself, I can assure that transgender concerns are being heard loud and clear. I head up the TransEra discord server, and I'm the creator of the TransEra OT. We have several other members of staff who are transgender as well, and I can assure you we we're all plugged into the trans community here at ResetEra, listening, and soliciting feedback. As I stated before, there's always at least one of us involved in a moderation decision regarding transphobia. This was already stated in the mod post.

Please stop trying to push this false narrative like the ResetEra staff isn't listening to transgender people, doesn't have transgender people on their staff, or isn't plugged into the transgender community. None of this true. We're always listening, always listening to feedback, and always trying to do a better job, particularly when it comes to combating things like racism, sexism, or transphobia. It will never be perfect, but we'll try and do our best.

Edit: Selina, one of the other administrators and one of the mod captains who heads up moderation here at ResetEra, is transgender as well. If you want further proof how absolutely absurd your statement is.

In the end, most people have a certain amount of resources. Not every issue and every cause can have the same response and the same amount of resources allocated to them.

It sucks but that's just human nature.
Most people will not look at every issue and every problem that every person can have and treat them all the same with the same urgency.

I haven't noticed this at all.

Straight Edge said:

Least Cream could do is link to specific posts made by those users. That being said she isn't a mod and we have a report button.

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One thing I'll add is that the user follow/ignore features are there for a reason.

the ability for "liberals to care" unfortunately doesn't have a purity test for a lot of things. People take their specific causes they care about and go home.

Transphobia is only one of them. And i agree, trans issues don't get nearly enough face time in general, let alone just on Era. But i would say that for a lot of things that should urgently be addressed.

Zelas said:

People can make a point without making it a regular occurrence of being warned/banned. It's not merely a matter of people not being able to handle it when clearly lines are being crossed.

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While it may be that calm dispassionate discourse is the most effective way to educate people on trans issues, we also have to remember that the anger and passion roused in the trans community stems from very legitimate issues that plague nearly every aspect of their lives. In short, its probably better to forgive a little anger than to expect the victims of regular harassment and dehumanization to never be emotionally compromised.

SweetNicole said:

As the community manager and a transgender person myself, I can assure that transgender concerns are being heard loud and clear. I head up the TransEra discord server, and I'm the creator of the TransEra OT. We have several other members of staff who are transgender as well, and I can assure you we we're all plugged into the trans community here at ResetEra, listening, and soliciting feedback. As I stated before, there's always at least one of us involved in a moderation decision regarding transphobia. This was already stated in the mod post.

Please stop trying to push this false narrative like the ResetEra staff isn't listening to transgender people, doesn't have transgender people on their staff, or isn't plugged into the transgender community. None of this true. We're always listening, always listening to feedback, and always trying to do a better job, particularly when it comes to combating things like racism, sexism, or transphobia. It will never be perfect, but we'll try and do our best.

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I don't know if I'm just playing devils advocate here, but I'm not sure that Cream was calling out Mods as much as the community itself to be better. If we are fucking up, I want to know how and why we are and how we can be better.

I'm really happy to know that our Admin and Mod staff is as large and diverse to be attentive to even smaller threads like this but I'm not sure these posts about moderation really cover what Cream was trying to get at:

A general lack of action and apathy towards trans issues vs. others that garner a larger share of the public's attention.

Just to be honest here, for me, I am hesitant to comment on topics that I'm not totally educated on, which then leads to me not really paying attention to the issues that some people face, i.e, in this case LBGT concerns. My history with interacting with LBGT folks is that sometimes it can be a sensitive and touchy subject, while other times some other people is an open book about them, and other times, I run into really aggressive M to F trans and would rub people the wrong way.
I can imagine many other people are also hesitating on speaking out and showing support because of the lack of education as well as maybe they've had some run ins with folks that are agressive, either way, from the old place to this place, I've seen much more support for LBGT groups here than I would see at other parts of the internet, and I've always been left the impression that Era is for the most part pro LBGT. I guess I'll need to educate myself more so that I will be able to show my support (here and IRL).

Eldritch_Spectre said:

The ones who post hateful stuff blatantly, 4chan style get banned quickly, but if you type a wall of text and Jordan Peterson your way around actually saying anything bigoted outright, you stand a decent chance of getting away with it.

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There was a certain poster that blatantly said that although they 'regretted' it, they didn't care that a conservative senator running for re-election was a kiddy diddler. As long as the person in question represented the issues that were important to them. A mod posted that they were protecting that poster and others from being banned for having those 'opinions' that went against the grain.

On the flip side there was another poster semi supporting Franken during the accusations too but I don't know if they were banned or warned or what but I don't think so. They were free to express that sort of tribalism.

So there's some consistency at least? Lol, I don't think it's remotely the same but this site seems to value ah, discussion and debate more than GAF? Outright bigotry isn't allowed but having shitty opinions is fine. (Not "airing my grievances" with the mods or whatever before I get a bullshit warning)

Usually the thread self moderates bullshit claims, so I'm not too worried. The callouts and burns make me laugh.

But I agree. And it's tiring to read bullshit bigotry hiding in the form of long form text 'both sides!' stuff.

The answer is to visit Ectera less and less for me. Spend more time in community threads. And I finally got to use the ignore button where I didn't on GAF.

Honestly if y'all think some of us are aggressive I shudder to imagine what you'd think of actual trans liberation activists

No I agree ERA cares way more about "tone" than the old place did. Or appearances. Feels like being on a public TV channel after being on netflix at times. Though I'm not sure what audience we're supposed to so polite to and worried about offending.

And yeah I come here way less already and I agree the ignore function is great...thing is though I never had to use it bar a few (<10) ppl on the old place cuz those kind of ppl were dealt with, swiftly.

But oh well things change, more time for real life stuff now.

And I do think this forum is doing better overall, just like to see a bit more consistency but I think we'll get there eventually.

Even in the new thread about Trump trying to ban them from the military again, it feels like people barely care, and are just shaking it off, focusing on how stupid trump is, instead of feeling like they are actually angry and scared for their trans peers. Almost like "pfft yeah go ahead and try Trump!"

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Well to be fair, he's giving people an option at better careers than slaving away for a military that won't do shit for their lives.

I'm all for a ban on everybody and dismantling the military honestly.

My uncle transitioned into my aunt almost 25 years ago. This has given me a personal connection with trans issues and struggles. But most people don't have a personal connection to trans issues and it takes longer for people to unwrap and understand. Especially since it doesn't get a lot of coverage in the media compared to other important issues.