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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
The representation in the media is a disgrace nearly worldwide.
and it wasn't that long ago that jokes at the expense of LGBT wasn't viewed for the horrible shit it is.

I feel like transgenderism is as misindentified as mental illness.
You get how people think of mentally ill people as crazed psychopaths wielding a chainsaw and raping strangers?
I feel like trans people are as maligned as that.
It's getting better but there's a fucking long way to even get to an acceptable place.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
I mean it is hard to be more supportive when you do not even know how to start. There is only one transgender person I know (from work), and they changed location reciently so I would not know what to do.
 

Sgt. Demblant

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,030
France
This might seem like a weird answer but the reason why I rarely participate in threads about trans issues is because as a non-native English speaker I don't feel properly equipped to discuss the subject at times. I simply lack the vocabulary. And I doubt I'm the only person like that on ERA. It's happened a couple of times that I started a post and then stuggled for a few minutes to articulate my thoughts properly, tried to google translate a few words and then gave up. It's the same reason why I don't post in political threads anymore aside from those about my own country or the occasional "Trump is an idiot" post. I hope this doesn't seem like too much of a cop out. I acknowledge that I could do better, sure. But when I see people post some incredibly ignorant shit in threads about France, it makes my blood boil. In a way, I just want to avoid being that person.

Maybe that doesn't mean much but I will say that ERA (and GAF previously) are the corners of the internet where I've seen the most trans representation by far. I feel like the trans community and trans issues are very visible here (probably not enough) and I've learned a lot about the subject by simply being here for a few years.
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
Speaking for myself and only myself, I would say that I'm no more apathetic to transgender issues than I am to black issues, Hispanic issues, Asian issues, gay and lesbian issues, sexism issues, gun violence issues, etc.

I offer verbal support whenever I feel inclined and try to get the right people elected into office, but beyond that, I have not been the sort of ally you're looking for to any of these groups of people.

And for what it is worth: a decade ago back on the old forum, attitudes towards transgender issues were a lot more hostile and derogatory, with me among those who held them. While my views have changed since then, it really was due to the efforts of the people who were brave enough to stand against the tide of negative opinion and believed that some people were listening while I was quietly watching from the sidelines.

So please don't get discouraged: you're winning hearts, one at a time, slowly, but forward.
 
OP
OP
Ketkat

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
The lack of visibility and positive role models really is quite tragic. It's gotten a little better over the past decade, but not by much.

It's just so incredibly damaging and potentially life ruining for trans kids and teens who end up repressing their gender identity issues as a result of the extremely horrible stereotypes and public perception of trans people.

I struggled with my gender identity issues from early childhood but I didn't even learn about actual transgender people and medical transition until I was 16, and that was only because I stumbled across an amazing web comic that had a transgender main character. But by then it was already too late, my body had already been irreparably damaged by undergoing the wrong puberty. Prior to that the only exposure I had found was drag queens and fetishists cross dressers, basically the Rocky Horror Picture Show stereotype, which utterly revolted and scared me into repressing my feelings until it was too late.

Side note: I will always fucking despise Drag for the incredibly harmful and damaging mainstream perceptions and stereotypes of trans people that it passively, and often actively enforces. Whether that's unfair or immature of me, I really do not care.

Yeah, representation is incredibly important not just for people to see us, but also for us to know that being transgender is normal and that we're not alone. The first time I heard about trans people, I think I was like 12 or 13, and I just vaguely heard about it from some Oprah special my mom was watching. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have known what to look for information on and I wouldn't have known that the feelings that I had been hiding from everyone were perfectly normal.


What does the trans community on Resetera want from posters when say a thread like the military ban one pops up? I got the impression from the last thread that when people say 'Fuck Trump' or 'that sucks', or 'This again?' or some other supportive comment that that isn't enough. But what is enough; how do you proceed with the discussion when everyone is pretty much in agreement that it's a shitty situation? The previous OP seemed disheartened that these posts only got to like 2 pages of responses - but what else was there to say that cis community members aren't saying or understanding?

As for celebrity transphobic threads I think it's a case of 'But what have you done for me lately.' As others have said, a poster with no real exposure or known trans persons in their lives probably looks at the situation like - 'Well JK Rowling is very famous and has given me these wonderful books I enjoy; surely she can't be a bad person, it must be a misunderstanding.' while in the same circumstance they may well admonish Ricky Gervis because they don't care for his works and if other people hate him for some transphobic comment well then obviously he sucks.

It may not be that the poster is transphobic or doesn't care about trans issues. But it's hard to view a respected celebrity in anything but a glowing light unless there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. In JK Rowling's case most people don't even take twitter seriously enough as some sort of political statement that they don't care one way or another what some celebrity likes or retweets so long as they aren't actively spouting transphobic sentiment themselves.

So taking all that into account, when a trans person says - well why aren't you calling out so-n-so; it feels like an attack on the poster and it goes back to well what have YOU done for me lately, vs this celebrity. Hope that all makes sense.

If everyone's in agreement, then there really won't be much discussion and you're not wrong about that. But I have seen a few threads on here about some specific case of discrimination that someone who is trans is facing and it just gets ignored completely by everyone who isn't trans. I understand that not everyone wants to jump into those threads and just shout down Trump or whoever, but the silence on those topics is discouraging.

I get what you're saying about celebrities, but that's still not great. Its weird to me that they would rather give the benefit of the doubt to some celebrity that they like over actually holding them accountable in some way. Rowling's situation, I wasn't expecting most people to really make a big deal out of liking a couple of tweets. But the defense for Gervais's jokes and Chappelle's original jokes still exist while the people who love it just completely ignore anything said by trans users about it.
 

CapNBritain

Member
Oct 26, 2017
534
California
I don't post much anywhere, although I read every post in every trans related thread that pops up. I don't know anyone that is trans but I have a lot of empathy for the struggles that trans people go through. I just don't feel like I have anything worthwhile to contribute so I'd rather not post than post something of low value.

But I care and do want to help if I can. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
 

gfxtwin

Use of alt account
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,159
The issue with going for centrist apathy like that is that things really aren't in a great position for trans people right now. At least in the US, we face massive amounts of discrimination that is leading to higher unemployment rates, higher homeless rates, all of which compound into much higher suicide rates. I do understand what you're saying that someone like that would absolutely be better than someone actively trying to harm us, but I don't think that should be the bar that satisfies us.

Yes, it's exhausting to constantly be put in the position of explaining to idjiots why we deserve to exist lol. I just think we should be content with some positive apathy ("I don't care, you deserve the right to do you" as opposed to "Whatever, you do you, I don't give a shit") for the time being. The reality is the majority of the voting public apparently isn't there yet. Remember the 2016electionresults? It's close, but there could easily be another GOP victory in coming elections. If nothing else, we should consider tolerating apathy from a strategic standpoint. We're strong, and have certainly suffered through worse bullshit than that.
 
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Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
We can have a thread about a comedian or a celebrity that people really like but they're willing to handwave everything away just because they like that person.

This is primarily celebrity culture. You saw similar stuff with Pew Die Pie saying the n-word and Jon Tron's xenophobic rant.

It is probably worse for trans people, but the phenomenon is not exclusive to trans issues.
 

Yasumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,569
I'm supportive where I can be most effectively, mostly the circle of people I know. I've called people out and lent an ear to friends. It's the human connection that tends to help most.

I've honestly given up on arguing it online though. It's like yelling into an endless number of stubborn, stress-inducing voids that don't like being told they hold shitty views. My affirmation or condemnation doesn't mean much when I'm just an avatar and text.
 

Deleted member 20603

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
946
I feel like I'm barely functioning as a person myself, I wouldn't know how to help anyone except for some words of encouragement. Work is exhausting/stressful and I'm also a shut-in due to social anxiety. If I knew some I'd treat them however they wanted to be treated, but I don't even have any cisgender friends either. My battery recharges when I'm alone and it runs out fast.
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
483
France
This might seem like a weird answer but the reason why I rarely participate in threads about trans issues is because as a non-native English speaker I don't feel properly equipped to discuss the subject at times. I simply lack the vocabulary. And I doubt I'm the only person like that on ERA. It's happened a couple of times that I started a post and then stuggled for a few minutes to articulate my thoughts properly, tried to google translate a few words and then gave up. It's the same reason why I don't post in political threads anymore aside from those about my own country or the occasional "Trump is an idiot" post. I hope this doesn't seem like too much of a cop out. I acknowledge that I could do better, sure. But when I see people post some incredibly ignorant shit in threads about France, it makes my blood boil. In a way, I just want to avoid being that person.

Maybe that doesn't mean much but I will say that ERA (and GAF previously) are the corners of the internet where I've seen the most trans representation by far. I feel like the trans community and trans issues are very visible here (probably not enough) and I've learned a lot about the subject by simply being here for a few years.

Yeah, as a French person too, I feel I don't have enough knowledge and vocabulary to discuss.
But as you said, I learned more about it when I read threads on GAF and still continue to learn on ERA.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,875
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
As others have suggested, having trans people in your life is a very effective way decrease the apathy. Being able to put a face or a name on an issue makes it feel a whole lot less distant. It's unfortunate that this is what it takes, because it puts pressure on trans people to put themselves out there, creating a scary chicken-or-egg situation. This is probably a key reason why transgender people are added to the "LGBT" label, in spite of being different from the first three letters. It's an aspect they have in common and need support with. The upside is that acceptance of gay people is steadily increasing in many parts of the world, so I assume the familiarity methods probably work on many folks.

There's also a more uncomfortable aspect to this though, which relates to how we discuss certain subjects. Many trans-exclusionary people treat the gender debate in a similar way to the racism one. This leads them to directly compare the systemic oppression and mockery of black people throughout history to the systemic oppression and mockery of women throughout history. A common manifestation of this is comparing trans people to folks in blackface. Dressing up in the aesthetic of another demographic can easily look performative, especially considering the long histories behind the practice. Trying to define what makes each instance different can not only be complicated in of itself, but might also further complicate the rhetoric other groups are using for their own means. The differences might be there at the end of the day, but longer it takes to explain your point, the harder it's going to be for this mentality to go viral. You could see a good example of this with Rachel Dolezal. A lot of well-meaning people were being confused by the concept, but trying to be open to it in ways similar to transgender folks, and things got messy really fast. It became clear to several folks that the ways we talk and educate about racism, sexism and transphobia intersected in some uncomfortable ways, and this made it very difficult to discuss against without lending credence to hateful rhetoric that is used against other groups. Many tried to adapt and explain the differences by going off-script, to avoid those intersecting similarities. It was incredibly difficult for both them and the receptive audience unfortunately. The best possible outcome luckily happened, which was that Rachel Dolezal could be dismissed, along with everything surrounding it. Frustratingly enough though, I saw quite a lot of people walk away from it, admitting understood the subjects or race and gender less the more they heard about it. Part of this can probably be attributed to many of those folks having the luxury of being cis and/or white, and thus not having the think of these subjects too much, but I still think this is one of those barriers that ends up contributing to the confusion and apathy.

This is really disappointing to hear. Entertainment is a great way to sneak new concepts into homes. Many folks are also receptive to parasocial relationships with recurring characters, making them feel like they know someone of another demographic, even when they don't actually do. The household I grew up in became a lot more open to homosexuality just by having an openly gay character appearing on a soap opera they watched.
 

Blackie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,643
Wherever
I can't speak for others but I am 100% for inclusivity, diversity, LGBTQ, animal rights, futurism and genetically modifying the human race.
 

Geirskogul

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,022
Yeah, representation is incredibly important not just for people to see us, but also for us to know that being transgender is normal and that we're not alone. The first time I heard about trans people, I think I was like 12 or 13, and I just vaguely heard about it from some Oprah special my mom was watching. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have known what to look for information on and I wouldn't have known that the feelings that I had been hiding from everyone were normal.

It's just so harmful as transition really isn't something that you can delay until adulthood without risking some very serious quality of life implications.

"It gets better" is not an axiom that applies to a great many trans people, unfortunately. Dysphoria needs to be recognized and treated early or it can easily become an incurable and arguably terminal condition, as it is in my case.

Gender Identity really needs to be taught in schools at an early age, but we're a long ways from that becoming a reality sadly. Hell, even in my psychology class i took freshman year of college (no less than 3 years ago) the professor had us skip the chapter on gender and sexuality because it was "too controversial".
 
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Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
I have to admit I am mostly absent in terms of posts regarding transphobic actions taken by people in the public eye. I do read but as some have said I don't yet feel equipped to providing a loud voice of support.

I certainly have more to say in my personal life than online in this respect as I find it easier to address friends and colleagues and help bridge the gap of understanding to the best of my ability, whereas online here I would be ignorant of many facets and there are people far better educated on the subject.

It has been eye opening working within the NHS, in a medical practice based at one of the country's largest universities. Whereas previously I may have seen one or two transgender patients in 7-8k patients, I now see a far larger percentage among 40 plus thousand patients. This is unsurprising given the nature of the age group of the students and the likelihood of these students going through self-realisation (as well as being a largely international institution with students from all over the world). Due to this I see a better understanding and acceptance from my colleagues but still a fair ways to go.

What has been greatly upsetting is the inadequacy of treatment available on the NHS as well as waiting times (mostly anywhere from 1-2 years for first consultation). It is still largely viewed through the lens of mental health treatment, which seems misguided, and is therefore just as underfunded and overstressed as the mental health services. Given the struggles facing the NHS it's tough to see light at the end of the tunnel in this respect but I try and feel optimistic in this regard.

On reflection I need to be a more visible advocate for those in need of support here and I will try and address this
 

D i Z

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,085
Where X marks the spot.
Despite what people would like to think of themselves and what they project as their online persona's, they really just don't give enough of a fuck.
Those that do are usually hip deep in it and juggling as fast as they can.
Nothing changes until people have real skin in the game. Anyone that doesn't that say's that they are standing with you is a fucking liar.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Transgender people are a tiny, tiny minority and their issues are complex. I think in general ERA does well with trans issues, certainly compared to the general population. We can be better moving forward and I hope as a community that we are.
 

Geirskogul

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,022
I have to admit I am mostly absent in terms of posts regarding transphobic actions taken by people in the public eye. I do read but as some have said I don't yet feel equipped to providing a loud voice of support.

I certainly have more to say in my personal life than online in this respect as I find it easier to address friends and colleagues and help bridge the gap of understanding to the best of my ability, whereas online here I would be ignorant of many facets and there are people far better educated on the subject.

It has been eye opening working within the NHS, in a medical practice based at one of the country's largest universities. Whereas previously I may have seen one or two transgender patients in 7-8k patients, I now see a far larger percentage among 40 plus thousand patients. This is unsurprising given the nature of the age group of the students and the likelihood of these students going through self-realisation (as well as being a largely international institution with students from all over the world). Due to this I see a better understanding and acceptance from my colleagues but still a fair ways to go.

What has been greatly upsetting is the inadequacy of treatment available on the NHS as well as waiting times (mostly anywhere from 1-2 years for first consultation). It is still largely viewed through the lens of mental health treatment, which seems misguided, and is therefore just as underfunded and overstressed as the mental health services. Given the struggles facing the NHS it's tough to see light at the end of the tunnel in this respect but I try and feel optimistic in this regard.

On reflection I need to be a more visible advocate for those in need of support here and I will try and address this

The NHS/European model for trans healthcare is an utter disgrace.

Trans healthcare in America is pretty abysmal with most medical professionals ranging from outright malicious to utterly clueless and insurance rarely covering anything, but at least we don't have to deal with years of gatekeeping and idiotic and incredibly dangerous RLE requirements before actually getting care.
 

Deleted member 3345

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,967
A pattern that I've been noticing across a lot of the threads that I have been participating in is a massive amount of apathy towards transgender issues.

We can have a thread about a comedian or a celebrity that people really like but they're willing to handwave everything away just because they like that person.

Or we can have something more serious like the Trump military ban or a transperson being discriminated against in someway and we'll just hear almost nothing on it from users that aren't trans themselves.

Equivocating these things is terrible.
 

Moose the Fattest Cat

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,439
The world is broken or unfair in no shortage of ways. But I think "apathetic" is an inaccurate label for "people"'s feelings on transgender issues. Trump's military ban sparked outrage and conversation. That has been Trump's daily responsibility though, breaking things, ruining things, sparking outrage and conversation.

In my experience, and I do live in a city and have several trans friends irl and online, people actively care about this, and other issues. The larger issue is that there are a far more sizable group who don't care about anyone except themselves. They are the biggest obstacle to all sorts of social progress & reforms, from trans issues to guns to health care to banking to corporate monopolies to gerrymandering... hhh. Whatever issue one is most passionate about, caring can be infectious, so start there and find a way to make the caring a tangible help somehow.
 

Chittagong

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,793
London, UK
Statistics.

It literally comes down to the fact that the trans community is so incredibly small (approx 0.6% in the US). The vast majority of the population have no connection to the trans community or trans issues; it simply doesn't factor in the day to day life for the majority of people. American Indians are by far one of the most marginalized groups living in the United States. They make up about 2% of the population, and that is still almost 4 times the trans population.

This matches my anecdotal evidence. Whereas many, many people in my life have been gay - my best friend in high school, my boss, my landlord, my best man, my business partner my neighbours for example - I have never really known a trans person. And it's not because I live in rural America, I live in London which is one of the most diverse and tolerant cities in the world. In fact, I don't recall meeting more than a couple of trans people in my 20 years career - but naturally I appreciate it's often not possible to tell, so it's possible I've met many more in reality.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
The NHS/European model for trans healthcare is an utter disgrace.
No disagreements there. I went to Primary/Junior school with a trans person who had to essentially go through puberty living outwardly as her correct gender but denied the surgery she needed to transition fully. There was never a question of her identity, yet the system was not in place to serve her needs.
 

Captain Shivers

User requested ban
Banned
Mar 12, 2018
117
The NHS/European model for trans healthcare is an utter disgrace.

Trans healthcare in America is pretty abysmal with most medical professionals ranging from outright malicious to utterly clueless and insurance rarely covering anything, but at least we don't have to deal with years of gatekeeping and idiotic and incredibly dangerous RLE requirements before actually getting care.

The years of gatekeeping and hoops that transpeople have to jump through to gain adequate support in the UK is tantamount to a prison sentence - albeit a sentence within a prison made of flesh rather than brick and mortar. Some of the worst horror stories are awful.

"Oh great. You've had the bravery to announce something deeply personal, and literally dangerous to your safety even in 2018, with the intent of moving on with your life at last. Hold that thought. We'd like to spend several months or even years asking "are you sure?" like a Microsoft Office popup while doing nothing to halt the damage being done by a cocktail of unwanted hormones. Before we actually decide to help you, however, you may even be asked to "publicly present" as your actual gender identity to satisfy us that you actually want help and are not just making life more challenging for yourself for the lulz. But we'll do nothing to alleviate the difficulty of that challenge in the meantime. Have fun with a target painted on your back for the time being as we likely exacerbate your dysphoria with our requirements for aid. See you in six months!"

As you identified in your earlier post, time is invaluable in treating gender dysphoria. Act at the earliest opportunity or else risk irreversible anguish. "But no, we should wait until teens are 18 before applying beta blockers!" say many people even now. What a crock of shit.

As for what I do for trans causes. Not enough, honestly. I try. I really do. I have revised much of the literature and company policies at work to be explicitly trans-inclusive. I make trans health awareness a factor in the public health campaigns we take part in, where previously I don't think anybody would have noticed (e.g. including transmen cervical cancer screening advice and checks in our cervical cancer awareness campaign that previously only tackled women).

It still feels like nothing compared to all the shit transpeople have to deal with. I'm sorry for not being a more effective aid.
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
No disagreements there. I went to Primary/Junior school with a trans person who had to essentially go through puberty living outwardly as her correct gender but denied the surgery she needed to transition fully. There was never a question of her identity, yet the system was not in place to serve her needs.
....nobody should be giving gender reassignment surgeries to people in fucking primary school anyway. What. That's way too young.

Considering the operations cost a lot of money, I think the NHS does an ok job of providing. I know of 4 trans individuals that have had surgeries, MtF and FtM in the last few years. All different ages and situations.
 

How About No

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
The Great Dairy State
As for what I do for trans causes. Not enough, honestly. I try. I really do. I have revised much of the literature and company policies at work to be explicitly trans-inclusive. I make trans health awareness a factor in the public health campaigns we take part in, where previously I don't think anybody would have noticed (e.g. including transmen cervical cancer screening advice and checks in our cervical cancer awareness campaign that previously only tackled women).

It still feels like nothing compared to all the shit transpeople have to deal with. I'm sorry for not being a more effective aid.
Just me

But from this you're doing fucking great <3
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,004
....nobody should be giving gender reassignment surgeries to people in fucking primary school anyway. What. That's way too young.

Considering the operations cost a lot of money, I think the NHS does an ok job of providing. I know of 4 trans individuals that have had surgeries, MtF and FtM in the last few years. All different ages and situations.

It's not about surgery, but from what I understand the use of blockers(Puberty blocker IIRC) and starting hormone treatment, surgical stuff can come till later.

Edit: It seem like we agree and I misread. I do think that they might be too young at such an age but I'd like to know if there is a recommended age to fully transition.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,324
Some people see the advances other groups, which that they never even thought of before, get in terms of law and curtosy and instead see 'concessions' they have to make. Suddenly their view of the world is 'wrong', and their natural instinct is to push back against it.

So you get louder voices experiencing that, and then a lot of more apathetic people either not countering that view or lazily throwing support. People don't usually fight unless they have a personal stake after all.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
I think that the reason is that people think that not caring is already being helpful in that, if they wanted, they could easily be harmful and that would be worse.

Like, whatever concerns trans people is perceived to be a deeply personal matter, rather than a more institutionalized problem, so the attitude of many people is that of not getting involved, and that already feels to them like doing something. The reasoning I think is like "I'm already being helpful in not actively getting in your way".
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
It's not about surgery, but from what I understand the use of blockers(Puberty blocker IIRC) and starting hormone treatment, surgical stuff can come till later.

Edit: It seem like we agree and I misread. I do think that they might be too young at such an age but I'd like to know if there is a recommended age to fully transition.
Yeah, I'm sure it's reallt difficult to work out that age. On one hand, you want to make sure people are making the right decision, on the other, you don't want to have them wasting time being unhappy. It's all a very complex issue imo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Seeing the military ban thread and the sexual misconduct by a prison guard thread is a little disheartening. I understand that some people don't want to deal with situations like that where it's just going to be "well that's awful" and not have much more to say. Yet, and I point no fingers, but I feel that we do not see that reluctance or disinterest on a general level for threads about an awful thing happen. At times it feels like disinterest, period.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
....nobody should be giving gender reassignment surgeries to people in fucking primary school anyway. What. That's way too young.

Considering the operations cost a lot of money, I think the NHS does an ok job of providing. I know of 4 trans individuals that have had surgeries, MtF and FtM in the last few years. All different ages and situations.

I'm not saying surgery is to be offered to children in primary school, but she was not treated medically throughout her school experience - I was at the same secondary school also. It was only after 16, after she had left secondary school, that she was able to move forward with proper treatment.

The waiting times for gender clinics in the UK are ludicrous. 2 years in Nottingham......

Don't get me wrong, it's not the only type of waiting time that is ludicrous - Step 4 psychotherapy waiting times for example, where patients first assessed in June (after having waited likely 2-3 months for that) are only now at the top of the list for contacting this month. For us here at a university practice, students who come to us with certain requirements, may not realistically be seen more than once or twice in their 3 year course before they return home and require re-referral into their local system.
 

Melody Shreds

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,550
Terminal Dogma
I admit that I often avoid topics on this issue,.not because I'm apathetic, but because as a white cis gendered man I don't think the trans community needs to hear my perspective.
However as a still-in-the-closet bisexual who has only really come out to my girlfriend irl Im not going to pretend I understand what your going though, but I do sympathize heavily.
I do know 2 trans women in real life, a friend and a family member and living in Ohio I can say from experience that this place is very transphobic and homophobic.
The shit I see people say to them is fucking disgusting and vile.
 

BeeDog

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,549
I honestly think it's due to the fact that (1) the relatability factor is quite low in many parts of the world, and (2) there are always very immediate, situation/country-specific issues that take precedence. Most people simply can't cope with too many topics, otherwise we'd all be depressed, jaded and cynical. I usually console myself with the fact that there are enough torch-bearers and forward-thinking proponents for all topics where I don't have any experience, which allows me to focus on topics that have affected me greatly, one way or another. For example, my mother passed away not too long ago in cancer, and trying to puzzle together my life, and my dad's, doesn't give me any headroom to really care about much else.
 

Deleted member 21380

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
528
Germany
Or we can have something more serious like the Trump military ban or a transperson being discriminated against in someway and we'll just hear almost nothing on it from users that aren't trans themselves.

What actually do you want to see in such a situation? No sane, non-shitty person can legitimately speak IN FAVOR of discrimination of trans people in those threads, so no discussion will take place, so the thread will be short. Or do you just want to see pages of pages of people posting some variety of "that's shitty, fuck Trump!"?
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,932
This might seem like a weird answer but the reason why I rarely participate in threads about trans issues is because as a non-native English speaker I don't feel properly equipped to discuss the subject at times. I simply lack the vocabulary. And I doubt I'm the only person like that on ERA. It's happened a couple of times that I started a post and then stuggled for a few minutes to articulate my thoughts properly, tried to google translate a few words and then gave up. It's the same reason why I don't post in political threads anymore aside from those about my own country or the occasional "Trump is an idiot" post. I hope this doesn't seem like too much of a cop out. I acknowledge that I could do better, sure. But when I see people post some incredibly ignorant shit in threads about France, it makes my blood boil. In a way, I just want to avoid being that person.

Maybe that doesn't mean much but I will say that ERA (and GAF previously) are the corners of the internet where I've seen the most trans representation by far. I feel like the trans community and trans issues are very visible here (probably not enough) and I've learned a lot about the subject by simply being here for a few years.
Good post. I wish i was as eloquent in english as i am in my own language. It does make us less effective in discussions.
Personally i don't think i am (or we are) that apathic. But that doesn't mean i won't laugh at a good hard joke. I have no problem with good jokes about my own personal stuff. Even when it's hurtful i can still think: damn, that hurt, but it was a good fucking joke.
There are also cultural differences in humor. Maybe living in a country like The Netherlands free speech is much more accepted and using humor as a way of dealing with the horrors of daily life and the crazy events happening on our tiny planet.

But Era is way more aware and empathic than many other places on earth, imo.
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
It might be a mix of apathy and fear of saying the wrong thing/upsetting the person they are trying to support.

I know from my friends circle that many of them support Trans people and would like to speak up more often, but they feel they can't because saying the wrong thing (even if it's well meaning) usually results in them getting blasted on Facebook, Twitter, wherever else they decide to post about these issues.

People are too on edge, rightly so when they feel their identity and who they are is being threatened/attacked, but any mistake is seen as an attack and people descend in a way that forces people to withdraw from the discussion and not engage in the future.
 
Oct 28, 2017
233
I think an honest answer to this is that ppl born prior to acceptance of transgender issues now can still find it "weird".

So 1980's and greater are still trying to accept it and in rural areas especially the likelihood of meeting and interacting with transgender ppl is slim to nil, so they're judgement or care probably won't budge from what they are taught.

Kind of like a rural area that lacks any Asians or black ppl - good luck bypassing their beliefs if there aren't may ppl of that color or race in that community.
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
I think an honest answer to this is that ppl born prior to acceptance of transgender issues now can still find it "weird".

So 1980's and greater are still trying to accept it and in rural areas especially the likelihood of meeting and interacting with transgender ppl is slim to nil, so they're judgement or care probably won't budge from what they are taught.
1980s? Gonna be honest here... transgender issues weren't taken seriously in any mainstream way until the 2010s.

This is an issue so new to most people that even older millennials studying at college in the 2000s wouldn't have been exposed to it much, even if they embedded themselves in particularly lefty social sciences. I'm sure some gender studies types were woke on it long ago, but wasn't on the radar of mainline discussion until very recently.
 

Arjen

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,025
On here I don't engage in discussion about the issue because I lack the knogledge, i see a lot of terms on here I never heard before, so if I engage in a discussion changes are I might say something stupid or offensive. In real life, I will correct people if they say something hateful about the issue though. Basicly, the level of the discussion about the issue between my real life and here are miles and miles apart.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,944
Most of the time, people care only about issues that affect their own lives, or people close to them.
It's human nature, you can't expect any single person to care about every problem in the world.
Our world sucks, there are too many problems than you can even imagine and they're all over the world, most people rather just live their lives minding their own business.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,015
This might seem like a weird answer but the reason why I rarely participate in threads about trans issues is because as a non-native English speaker I don't feel properly equipped to discuss the subject at times. I simply lack the vocabulary. And I doubt I'm the only person like that on ERA. It's happened a couple of times that I started a post and then stuggled for a few minutes to articulate my thoughts properly, tried to google translate a few words and then gave up. It's the same reason why I don't post in political threads anymore aside from those about my own country or the occasional "Trump is an idiot" post. I hope this doesn't seem like too much of a cop out. I acknowledge that I could do better, sure. But when I see people post some incredibly ignorant shit in threads about France, it makes my blood boil. In a way, I just want to avoid being that person.

Maybe that doesn't mean much but I will say that ERA (and GAF previously) are the corners of the internet where I've seen the most trans representation by far. I feel like the trans community and trans issues are very visible here (probably not enough) and I've learned a lot about the subject by simply being here for a few years.

This example reminds me of a comment I saw some time ago, regarding Rowling's apparent support for a TERF (and potential indication she herself was one), which basically dismissed her as having outdated views that 'the rest of the world has moved on from'. And the response that kinda ticked over in my head was... really? They thought that was the case?

It feels like among progressive circles when it comes to various issues - not even just trans ones, but mental health, ethnic discrimination, so forth - there is a trend towards underestimating how widespread harmful views are and remain, while overestimating the degree to which people are even aware of countering positions, nevermind actually embracing them. That is not to say any of those (dis)affected are under any kind of obligation to be a 'teacher' for others in such regards - particularly in contexts where information is readily available and projected that one has to be in some part deliberately ignoring it to not take it onboard - but I think it is worth bearing in mind how far the problem of people's bigotry truly is from being solved, or even properly recognised, particularly globally, which is rather key in a global internet.
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,786
It might be a mix of apathy and fear of saying the wrong thing/upsetting the person they are trying to support.

I know from my friends circle that many of them support Trans people and would like to speak up more often, but they feel they can't because saying the wrong thing (even if it's well meaning) usually results in them getting blasted on Facebook, Twitter, wherever else they decide to post about these issues.

People are too on edge, rightly so when they feel their identity and who they are is being threatened/attacked, but any mistake is seen as an attack and people descend in a way that forces people to withdraw from the discussion and not engage in the future.

I see a lot of this, but more so for me I feel it's more important to listen than ask questions. It's hard to ask questions sometimes, because you really don't know how people can take it and I feel it's more important to let Trans people feel accepted and comfortable than to satify my own curiosity of confusion.

That said, when I do see people who are trans under attack either online or in real life, it's not hard to say something to defend them. At the end of the day, trans people are people who don't deserve to be bullied, harassed or made to feel shitty for living the life they live, no matter how much you understand that life.
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,206
It might be a mix of apathy and fear of saying the wrong thing/upsetting the person they are trying to support.
I notice the trans threads are often littered with banned accounts.
Being transphobic will get you banned here, and you can be seen as such by misgendering, deadnaming, or even concern-trolling someone. All of those things are easy to do if you aren't paying attention to what you are typing, and aren't aware of the concepts in the first place.
So, while I'm interested in the issues discussed, I just stick to browsing those threads without posting, for fear of somehow upsetting someone and getting banned.
I don't post much on these forums, but I'd still rather keep my nose clean anyway.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
Because the transgender population is like .06 percent of the population in the US. Most people don't even know a trans person, therefore you have a lot of apathy.
 

UltimateHigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,500
I actually do see the apathy, and I'm probably a little guilty of it myself.

My support hasn't wavered in the slightest but I don't actively engage like I used to (I read it all though), and it is kind of bugging me.

Perhaps it's because trans issues aren't getting the attention elsewhere in the media to get people riled up, to the point where it bleeds into offline and you gotta battle all those ignorant ass people for real (happened plenty in '16), even if Trump is still being evil about it on the sly.
 

Jombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
Most people don't know anyone in the LGBTQ community, and only know what they fucking see on TV. Moreover, many have never evolved past the 90s with their mistrust of them.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Long post incoming, but I know someone will read it.

For starters, I would give most the benefit of the doubt that it is not an inherent dislike, hatred or wanting to deny your identity. The vast majority of forum-goers, offline, probably have next to no real-life experience with trans people. I don't. I have friends that are under the LGBT banner, but not trans. In high school sex education for me was weak, but not terrible. Some topics around LGBT were covered, but trans? Nothing at all. Like, literally, nothing. I've had some experience with trans from the media growing up, but most of that is always face value or very limited in scope. An ignorance issue is most certainly at the front of reasonable/decent people who may fumble on terminology, or the correct way to call something or refer to conditions, or make some sort of transgression they can and will learn from. Most people are starting to understand gender dysphoria a little better, but there is the ignorance of simply stating that means everyone has gender dysphoria when that might not necessarily be the case, as that is a clinically diagnosed condition, not something you just assign to people.

Putting genuine ignorance aside, on a forum, you do also face the complexity of 30,000 plus people, all together, everyone pretty much not knowing anyone else properly, and on a forum, grouping occurs. People who like each other, group together, and they understandably take note of other people they maybe don't like so much. Just how friends form in real life, and people in real life judge other people. Take the average person, you probably have a close social circle in the tens, maybe reaching a hundred if you are still counting all those school FB friends you don't even know or see anymore. Then narrow that down to possibly a handful of very close friends who know/trust you inside out, know your humour, know your personality, know when to give you the benefit of the doubt, know you're human and can fuck up, but also really know the "bones" in your body are decent and you are a good person. Etc, etc. This is still observable on a forum, grouping is very real, and heck, it even happens in the moderation ranks. Something that actually got out of control a bit on GAF where some of the community ended up feeling that it was the mods vs the users. Which isn't great for a forum.

On a forum, I refer to as the mods as having to do the job of an adult day care centre. Adults get together, in the thousands, and chaos ensues because no one really knows anyone, everyone is making assumptions, screwing up often means I'm going to assume this person doesn't have the capability to learn or was just having a bad day, but they are literally a piece of shit, my enemy, and aggression/defensiveness often reigns supreme. Forums are fun, I've been on forums for ages, it's great to learn shit you don't know much about in your limited daily life, it's easy to find lots of people who play games your real life friends might not, and yes, in terms of trans people, you can actually speak to people that are in that small a minority you may have never spoken to face to face. There is a lot of good from forums, and while I understand bad people exist, as well as trolls, the number one things mods AND users need to try and do is make complex behavioural assumptions and decisions on people they don't really know and that they've never met. It's frequent to see groups on a forum all pointing fingers and saying we don't like this person, they've done wrong, punish them, etc, but sometimes a cool head needs to evaluate everything before responding. The forum users might be right to do that classicly referred to phrase "dogpiling", but even still, the role of the daycare centre runners is to try and evaluate that person and punish accordingly.

Are some punishments necessary? Of course. Just like the saying goes, what you do in the world, even when it comes to speech, can have consequences. I made a bad mistake in overreacting to a remark about Dark Souls being transphobic. I'm a massive Dark Souls fanboy, a discussion around something else was heated, emotions were running high like they do during passionate debates, and when I heard an objective claim that the Dark Souls series is transphobic I ridiculed that claim by subjectively stating I think that isn't true. It ended up being a partial call out topic, which was locked and I have now been what was referred to as junior'd on GAF (I can't create topics anymore ~ Much to the delight of some probably >_> lol). An administration decision made because it was decided I had to be punished for stepping out of line within the rules of this forum. The main difference between GAF and here is you can actually speak to the people who hand out punishment, whereas on GAF you were either shit scared to, incase that ended up in personal mod retaliation, or you just couldn't because the PM system when banned didn't work. There was no warning system either, just flat out bans. While it was often stated perm'ing juniors was progressive, at times it did get to the point where the most obnoxious shit ended up with a public celebration of someone being permanently banned. Something like port-begging, annoying as fuck, and maybe deserving of a timeout, but a permanent ban for a stupid post saying "Sony port Bloodborne to the PC!"? Nah, there did come a point where you have to objectively look at decisions to permanently kick the thing that actually runs your forum, the people. Without people, you don't have a forum. You have a glorified Facebook hangout chat. Balancing the people who can stay from those you don't want around is mission impossible, but when it is attempted it has to be attempted in... drum roll please, good faith. A favourite term of this forum :P

I made a stupid mistake, which trans people could rightfully say upset them, and I got punished. I'm a psychologist in training and in terms of politics, vote for a left/socialist party and since day 1 of voting in my life have never voted Tory/right. Does this necessarily matter? Does it mean I'm perfect? Does it mean everything I do is right? No, that would be the height of arrogance and selfishness for me to think any of that in an absolute sense. But rightly or wrongly, being part of a forum sometimes has you almost have to air your "credentials" because of the nature of thousands of eyes all primed to make 100% definitive assumptions and decisions on your character. Because people don't really know you, they make judgements based on the avatar/the text. I've already had claims I'm alt-right, or *wink wink* I must be far right if not alt-right. Those suggestions are patently ridiculous, but, I do concede, it's a forum and in amongst 30,000+ people everyone's tolerances are different and the things people feel passionate about are different. We're all different. If someone appears not to take something as seriously as you do, or thinks differently, it's human nature to get defensive and possibly go on the offensive. The only thing I can say is it's always better to talk/ask first, accuse later. You can be wrong with your accusations, even if you think you are 100% in the right in that moment. Remember the concepts of ignorance and remember people trying to express themselves through text, on a forum, is a minefield for picking up things wrong and people muddling themselves up not doing a good job of expressing themselves. Also remember that on some of the big philosophical questions of life, like religion, it will be a battlefield of arguments. Even people who are as left-leaning as they come, speak correctly in public, never purposefully try to hate or abuse, will still make objective and subjective arguments around the concept of "tolerating the intolerant". Where are your lines drawn on opinions around religious practices or ideas, or even just ideas in general? We sometimes come to similar conclusions, but we don't always get there in the same way, and that is okay. If you can argue your feelings in a respectful way, opinions that aren't the same as yours are okay in a society with 7 billion people. You can choose to only surround yourself in real life with people who think 1:1 with you, and that is quite normal to do, but if a forum wants to have 30,000+ people, that is not going to be possible unless you literally ban every single person that you don't deem as being in your group. Then you will have that glorified facebook friends group, with maybe 20~30 people in it. You can certainly do that if you want if you own the forum, but my understanding from the mission statement of Resetera is it wants to try and grow into a large forum, where there is debate, not just be an exclusive friends club.

I'll finish on the note of comedy, because it is becoming an "issue" on the forum. It always has been to be fair, comedy has caused arguments since before any of us were born. An argument here you routinely see is "why won't you talk about trans issues when I ask you to?" I have to be honest here, I think some posters don't because they are at this point, slightly fearful of very quick moderation. This is not calling out moderation, it's my subjective opinion on a few occasions bans have come very quickly where SOME benefit of the doubt might have been better applied, first, then a ban if a double-down. So in return, you probably have posters who know they aren't transphobic who will just say "I enjoyed this comedy show" and refuse to respond to or even debate posters who quote them going "Tell me what you thought about the trans joke?". It's not a simple conversation to have when it comes to comedy, it CAN be multi-faceted. The art of comedy is often subjective, and context and intent can allow offensive things to be joked about, without it meaning the comedian and all of the audience are now instantly hateful of trans people, let alone hateful of any other offensive content of the comedy show. I've always said comedians are not above criticism, and if you try to handle a so-called taboo subject, and largely subjectively get told you failed terribly at it, you should listen to the criticism that comes your way. I think for some who would say I think that joke didn't work and the comedian needs to rethink, but I'm not sure they are totally transphobic, as in they hate and actively want to discriminate against trans people is 100%, will worry that will be an instant ban and a message saying THEY have now been transphobic themselves. Whereas, what they originally really did, is try to make a judgement call on if they think the comedian is transphobic. So in effect, you attempting to make a judgement call if the comedian is straight up transphobic, ends up getting you accused of being transphobic.

Basically, I think comedy has to be allowed to be spoken about up to a level where if you actually want posters on a forum to try and express themselves and maybe be corrected and challenged if they are wrong, you can't just want the moderation of the forum to ban everyone on the spot. All that does is ironically not have your needs met for people to talk to you. The thing you claim you want, more people to speak. They will just not respond to you, which then has you assume they aren't responding because they are transphobic or support transphobia. So if they respond in an incorrect way, they are transphobic (this could be true), and if they don't respond, they are transphobic (this verges more on mind-reading). Some people who watch offensive comedy and laugh will be transphobic to their core, but not everyone is, and it's important to strive to try and get those sorts of accusations handed out as objectively, and correctly, as possible.
 
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John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
i would say most people are apathetic towards everything except maybe one or two things they happen to care about, at least relatively speaking.
 

Torres

Member
Oct 29, 2017
265
There's a lot of issues that aren't as sexy or trendy. I don't think trans issues are alone in that, any identity group on the media fringe has that issue. And that really sucks. I know I save my outrage for a handful of things I really care about, or else I'd be angry forever. On threads here people usually say just about what there needs to be said on trans issues so I don't participate.

If I see someone's transphobia go unchecked, I'll check them both on and off line. But I won't be performative, to appear as a better ally. That seems even worse to me!