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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
This kind of stuff creeping into long standing series without a history of sexualisation is what really bothers me. I don't have any issue with games like Senran Kagura existing, they're open and honest on what they are and the kind of audience they're looking for but please, please, please don't start tarnishing existing franchises with something so cheap and tacky. The changing representation of Samus in smash bros is another example in giving her highly impractical footwear for bounty hunting.

Funnily enough, if it wasn't for the jet high heels, I'd actually think the changes to Smash 4 ZSS was good as I liked every other change made to Zero Suit Samus in Smash 4. The change in colors to the suit means the design is finally more visually appealing. Her character art is no longer a boobs-and-butt pose like in Brawl (funnily enough, that pose went to Captain Falcon of all people), and the design in general is a lot better than Brawl's. It's just those damn heels. Who thought that was a good idea?
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,403
Canada
I FULLY agree with the sentiment in OP's post but sometimes its poorly directed at games that do it as an artistic statement.

Take Dragon's Crown. It is clearly a stylized game that tries to capture the late 70s/early 80s swords and sorcery use of bare skin and marble sculped, oily bodies. Its Heavy Metal X Fabio X Frazetta with a Japanese twist.
The use of batshit, over the top sexual poses are totally there as a homage to the trashy/pulpy flavour that defined an era of everything fantasy/sci-fy.
You can argue that its paying homage to an outdated style mostly created by men just to give kids of the pre-internet porn-age something to pop a boner to, but to deny an artist of that creative well (and now established piece of pop-culture) as an artistic foundation for his expression? I cant roll with that either.



You can't just look at this and go "NO, NO, NO!!! This has no place in a modern world!!!" regardless of general context or the creator's intent.
There is a unique flavour to this era specific art style that while potentially off-putting to some, was legitimized by being adopted by countless renowned and highly influential artists of its time, to the point where it should be admired outside of current sociopolitical issues, when its done properly and with a very clear and strong artistic voice backing it up.

Judging art on a surface level is just a goddamn shame all together. One should take the time to understand the thing they wish to criticize before grouping it with more clearly creatively bankrupt crap meant to bank on shitty social biases.

RE: Dragon's Crown...that warrior nun pose is soooome bullshit
3dkae28.jpg

Ddmittedly the chastity belt was funny and a great subtle touch, but the rest of this is hardly subtle...and I think that's a big part of the problem, it's never subtle sexy... IT'S SEXY-SEXY, it's "look-at-these-tits" sexy, it's the framing, it's that men are often dressed from HEAD TO TOE, but women seem to find arbitrary reasons to show off skin

3N1Kffp.gif
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
"Some women are into BDSM, therefore every woman is okay with the objectification of their entire gender."
TBF most people into BDSM I've heard from hate BDSM. Largely because the novels ignore the core foundations of what many practioners consider it to be.
This all completely off topic though.

Regardless these are the usual sorts of arguements made whenever issues like this are raised.
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
TBH I hear dudes complaining about sexualized designs wayyyyy more than women.

And most of the cosplayers I know will actively flock to those designs way quicker than any others.

It may be bad in practice, but people seem to enjoy it regardless.



Gladio is at minimum just as bad as Cindy. The dude is wearing black leather pants with a leather jacket and no shirt.

I switched his outfit to alternate almost immediately.

A thread made by a woman gets dismissed as "pfft dudes complain more than women".. like... what....
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
50 shades is a smut novel by a woman for other woman.

Quiet was a character that was the brainchild of a horny guy for other horny guys.

Can you not see the difference in this?

Yeah, male vs female objectification for different audiences. Audiences that due to their sex, routinely show observable differences in behaviour when it comes to stimulation. Said differences are then zoned in on by the markets for products, or maybe the creators projecting their own fantasies into their works, resulting in potential sales success and positive feedback from the audiences.

To begin with, it's essential to note that the literature specifically studying men's arousal patterns (gay as well as straight) has repeatedly emphasized their sensitivity to visual cues. As soon as the lust-inspiring image registers in their brain, they become turned-on—not only physically but psychologically, too. Exposure to such erotic stimuli immediately activates the parts of their brain related to getting an erection. And, as Ogas and Gaddam suggest, "Men's greater sex drive may be partially due to the fact that their sexual motivation pathways have more connections to the subcortical reward system than in women" [or, in short] "men's brains are designed to objectify females." Frustrated women have frequently (and cynically) complained that men's brains are located between their legs. But the authors' more scientifically grounded viewpoint seeks to elucidate the strategic—and frankly, unwilled—connection between the male's brain and his genitals. (See also an earlier two-part post of mine called "The Testosterone Curse.")

It's therefore no coincidence that many adult sites targeting men zero in on body parts. Ogas and Gaddam (as the computational neuroscientists that they are) cite Fantasti.cc to point out that of their 100 top-rated images no fewer than 23 exhibit close-ups of female anatomy without a face. Although, unquestionably, the dehumanizing implications of such calculated cropping are saddening, many of the authors' characterizations are nonethelesslaugh-worthy. For instance, alluding to one website's presentation of female body parts, they observe: "The site looks like a Victoria's Secret catalog passed through a paper shredder." And they're forced to conclude (lament?) that "men's brains scrutinize the details of arousing visuals with the kind of concentration jewelers apply to the cut of a diamond" (p. 47).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01205/the-triggers-sexual-desire-men-vs-women

If there's such a thing as porn for women, it revolves around the romance novel. And the amazing popularity of this literary genre suggests the vast differences that distinguish what arouses a woman's libido vs. a man's.

As mentioned earlier, the volume that represents the basis for this extended series of posts on human sexual desire is Ogi Ogas and Sai Gaddam's A Billion Wicked Thoughts (2011). These authors carefully describe the nature of women's escapist fiction, tailor-made to so many of their tastes. And they also take pains to underscore how prevalent—and profitable!—it's been as a form giving voice to female eroticism. For example, they report that in 2008 the genre generated some $1.37 billion in sales, constituting "the single largest share of the fiction market." Additionally, in that year at least 74.8 million people read a romance novel, over 90 percent of whom were women (p. 87).

These numbers are compared with the approximately 100 million men in the U.S. and Canada who accessed porn online in 2008. And the authors note that although women aren't willing to pay for such typically male-oriented visual porn, they're quite happy to pay for the privilege of reading romance fiction. So happy in fact that such erotica actually produces more revenue than does online pornography for men.

Visual cues do matter for women, but not really more than other sensory ones. And to become significantly aroused, women definitely need more cues than men. As already suggested, a man's voice and scent is important—as is the sensuality of his touch. Visual cues—which do not focus on sex organs at all—include a man's face, eyes (as in, the more intense the better), color of his hair, and his general body shape. And (actually similar to men here) women do care about butts. As Ogas and Gaddam observe: "The gluteus maximus is a 'universal cue': it's the one piece of anatomy that straight men, gay men [and women], and straight women all find exciting" [not to mention primates!] (p. 166). Still, more than anything else, it's the combination of many physical and psychological cues that succeeds in turning women on. And this is why romantic stories, using the written word to capture both their imagination and libido, have from the start been the most popular form of erotica for them.

There are additional triggers that activate female (and, somewhat differently, lesbian) sexual desire. But here I'll refrain from exploring them, since these stimuli are more appropriately discussed in later segments of this series (e.g., "Paradox and Pragmatism in Women's Sexual Desire" and "Why Erotic Illusions Can Turn You On Much More Than the Real Thing"). Instead, I'll conclude this post by quoting from Ogas and Gaddam's succinct summary on how women's sexual cues contrast with men's:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...iggers-sexual-desire-pt-2-what-s-erotic-women


The argument of gaming having too much catering for men, or it being in games where it isn't needed, isn't the same as understanding why it plays out how it does. I've tried to argue the above, at length, countless times, but some just won't accept even a little science, biology and psychology to explain the whys and hows.

To carry on from the above, a short thought experiment for everyone. Where do the freest, most tolerant and liberal places on earth tend to be? I'll tell you where they don't seem to be. Where women have to cover up their arms, let alone legs, because societies are taught any sort of depiction of the female body is an abomination/sin. Penises, boobs, butts and vaginas are to be feared, misunderstood, viewed as icky, embarassed about, not tolerated, etc. I mean, that to extents still happens with Conservative Christians/Catholics here, where sex before marriage is a sin, condoms are a sin, women need to wear long skirts, keep everything sexual behind closed doors and in the bedroom and so on. That is really the worst of patriarchal societies in effect actually controlling expression, freedom, and sometimes leading to violence/laws being broken/etc. Yes, societies that are "sex mad" still have their issues with abuse/harassment and so on, but many of the European countries that carry out in-depth sex education throughout youth with children end up producing some of the most well-rounded individuals who understand sex/nudity and the roles biology and psychology play, without internal mass panic and fearing the worst all the time.

I plug this documentary a lot, but I never really get any feedback anyone has watched it http://www.channel4.com/programmes/sex-in-class

Belgian sexologist Goedele Liekens launches a new kind of sex education for 15-16 year olds at a Lancashire school

Pay close attention to how education brings around the young boys displaying genuinely problematic behaviour. Which is what I continually argue is the best disinfectant for trying to prevent many of the teenagers/adults we now see on the internet behaving like assholes and totally failing with women.
 
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deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,100
I can understand why women would be frustrated. Quite simply, there are a ton of products out there that simply are not made for them. Which is a shame, and probably a big mistake given their growing percentage of the gaming population, and the reality of AAA development which needs every sale they can get.

But at the same time, to me its just all about freedom and choice. Are some games highly sexualized (with a strong slant obviously to appeal to straight males)? Sure, but the games industry is there to entertain us (which like it or not is an audience that is still mostly straight males) and in doing so they create fantasy worlds, and sometimes that involves some fan service. And for me...that is alright. There are games that are 100% fantasy, and titillation is the clear mission statement, and that is fine. There are also games that are more realistic and "respectful" if you will, and that is fine too.

Its great that something like Horizon can come out and make a really respectable, non-sexualized female protagonist in a big AAA game, and I hope we see more game efforts with this spirit. At the same time, I like me some Senran Kagura now and then too. Choice is a wonderful thing, and I would hate to see any genre of game be excluded or not made because one group doesn't approve. Likewise, if a female dev wants to make an equally shallow "hot guy" game, go for it. Might it get some mocking from some idiot portions of the male population- sure, but honestly, who cares about them? Such an effort wouldn't be aimed at them anyway. If a female audience bought and supported such a game to make the project successful, that would be great.

In the end, everything out there is going to face the scrutiny of the public's reaction- see Kojima and Quiet in MGS5- that was pretty heavily lampooned, and I would like to think that will come into future consideration in his games. (or maybe not!) At the end of the day, its his sales numbers on the line if he makes products that aren't pleasing his audience- and he is seeking a mass audience for sure given the scope of his games- so he probably SHOULD be trying hard to please everyone. This philosophy really should apply to any AAA production- they can't afford to lose sales when they need something like 5 million plus sales to just pull even on a project.

On the flip end- something like Senran Kagura- not really intended for (straight) women at all, and likewise could offend many others too, but they are obviously catering to their smallish niche, and that's where that product exists- and that is perfectly fine too.
 
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CO_Andy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,514
I could be wrong but i've been under the assumption that women in Japan just don't care about the slug factor in their media.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,403
Canada
TBH I hear dudes complaining about sexualized designs wayyyyy more than women.

And most of the cosplayers I know will actively flock to those designs way quicker than any others.

It may be bad in practice, but people seem to enjoy it regardless.

Maybe cuz more guys play and many women have been scared off with toxic comments, rape/death threats, and other bullshit like putting bikini-clad women on covers.

Cosplayers go to that because it can be fun. It's FUN to be sexy, to dress sexy, to act sexy... it's not fun when perverts eye you up like it's their first time meeting a woman, when they start asking where you live, when they try to do upshots or grab you because allegedly "cosplay=consent". Also cosplaying is a business to some women, they know wearing the skimpy stuff will sell posters.

There's no black or white answer to this. Sexy can be fun, but it's very easy to step over the line.

Gladio is at minimum just as bad as Cindy. The dude is wearing black leather pants with a leather jacket and no shirt.

I switched his outfit to alternate almost immediately.

What men and women find attractive is not nearly 1:1. Gladio is okay, but we're not nearly as switched on by a shirtless person as men seem to be. I think Gladio and Prompto were way more the fan favorites --- Gladio is the muscle, which some women probably like, but I doubt the majority.

I could be wrong but i've been under the assumption that women in Japan just don't care about the slug factor in their media.

Japan is a surprisingly far cry from gender equality for a first world nation; they're incredibly traditional (day time in Japan is largely mums and kids and there is still a pretty big assumption that women not only won't move ahead with work but will put it as a back seat to child rearing when it happens).

There's also an over-conflation of how "important" otaku culture is over there.
 

Deleted member 6733

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,441
It is a bane on the industry but nothing will change. Same for the music industry which is way way worse. I can't watch any music television when the kids are around because there are tits and arse everywhere, shaking about and clearly objectifying women. But apparently this is ok. All the stars are doing it. These 'role models' - really setting a good example for their young fans. /rant
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
In the case of Kojima, it's his game.
He can design the way he wants.
And we are allowed to criticize it for how horrible it is in context of the game and even outside of it. Kojima's games don't exist in a vacuum and these things, especially in the case of a horribly handled character like Quiet, affect the overall enjoyment many have of the end product.

Creative people aren't above criticism. They can be racist, sexist, homophobic and there's absolutely nothing wrong with calling them out on it. Maybe they'll take some of the criticism to heart and CHOOSE TO DESIGN DIFFERENTLY, not treating women as mere sex objects to be gawked at.

In real life women often all over the world also dress differently than men.
That's why there is women clothing and women clothing stores.
The girl in FFXV really isn't something you won't see in the real world.
Please show me even a single professional female mechanic who dresses they way Cindy does. (Some) women dress differently (though a lot have t-shirts & jeans, just like men), but they don't run around in bikini armors in a blizzard. They dress appropriately for the climate & situation at hand.
 

atomsk eater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,830
This isn't about completely removing all attractive characters, sexy clothes, and sexuality from games. I'd be happier if companies put even a little more thought into it rather than the standard "slap her in a string bikini and then shove the camera into her crevices." Make your sexy outfit make sense. Cindy wearing a jumpsuit that can be zipped down achieves the goal of showing at a glance what kind of job she does, while still showing cleavage and being sexy.

Aside from that I'd like to see more female characters own their sexuality. There's a difference between a character dressing sexy and actually being shown in some way to be in charge of their sexuality. Zero from Drakengard 3 (and her sisters) are unusual to me because they all express their sexuality to different degrees (even 4 is assumed to have desires although she ignores them for whatever reason). Zero straight up just says "hey let's do it" and the camera fades to black. She implies at one point she's going to peg a guy.
D3 isn't perfect by any means, but I can't bring myself to dislike it because when I wrack my brain I have a hard time thinking of other games where female characters are allowed to be so frank about wanting sex.

It's rare to see a female character be aggressive and desire sex, and actually carry it out vs. being there to be ogled in a skimpy outfit or hit on (or even touched in some games with those mechanics) whether she likes it or not. Seriously, it bothers me in games where there are touching minigames or whatever and the character is yelling "Nooo" "Yamete" "Stop" and all variations, clearly not enjoying it. Even changing it so that the character doesn't mind or even enjoys it would make that more palatable.

I kinda lost the handle on my own post, but I guess my main point is that I wish game developers just put more thought into it. Have your sexy characters, but make sure the costume still fits into the world or that you have more ways to make a character sexy than amount of sheer exposed skin and camera angles. And still give characters qualities and purpose beyond being sexy, of course. And if you're going to say games should tackle sexuality, don't be afraid to write female characters that actually act on theirs.
 

StoveOven

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,234

So, most of this post isn't a response at all to what I was saying. You go into a large diatribe about "internet outrage cutlure" and "name calling", which I don't think is representative of my posts at all, and you also bring up someone like Yoko Taro, a creator whom I actually have a lot of respect for, despite me never mentioning him. So when I pick and choose quotes from it, it's more to engage with legitimate arguments than it is an attempt to misrepresent you.

It's not the developer's responsibilities to act as parents for the assholes who play their games.

So this is part of an argument where you imply that I'm calling developers bad people (I'm not) and implying that they should spend their days arguing on forums (fucking lol), but the idea that artists aren't responsible for their fans is a popular one, so I'll address that point. All art, either explicitly or implicitly communicates values of some sort. Those values might not be intentional and might actually be something that the creator strongly disagrees with. If, as an artist, you see a large amount of people doing something you find morally reprehensible and using your art, again either explicitly or implicitly, as a justification for those horrible acts, you might want to examine your creation, see how those values were communicated, and try to avoid those issues in the next thing you create.

As an offshoot to the above, it wouldn't surprise me if some developers are socially awkward and unsuccessful males. Jumping into creating their own fantasies where they do get the girl. As I higlighted above though, social awkwardness, being a virgin and sucking with the sex you wish to be with, does NOT instantly mean you actually harass/abuse/name-call and threaten. What I have said in the topic is those who DO turn to harassing, threatening and anti-social behaviour allow their inexperience, awkwardness, low-status, exclusion from the world to turn into hate and resentment.

Men are not entitled to "getting the girl". Your association of men who don't have a lot of sex as "unsuccessful males" is really the heart of this whole issue. The characterization of women as 'thing men pine over and compete for' as opposed to 'regular people with their own agency in the world' is the root problem of objectification. I'm not saying this is your worldview, but it is the worldview expressed by a lot of games. And when games that are targeted at people who are socially awkward and don't have a lot of real relationships (not sexual relationships, just relationships in general) with actual women, those people are more likely to buy into that worldview.

tl;dr Artists do have some responsibility (the degree of which is debatable) when the terrible worldview exhibited by their fans is the same terrible worldview exhibited by their art.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I can understand why women would be frustrated. Quite simply, there are a ton of products out there that simply are not made for them. Which is a shame, and probably a big mistake given their growing percentage of the gaming population, and the reality of AAA development which needs every sale they can get.

But at the same time, to me its just all about freedom and choice. Are some games highly sexualized (with a strong slant obviously to appeal to straight males)? Sure, but the games industry is there to entertain us (which like it or not is an audience that is still mostly straight males) and in doing so they create fantasy worlds, and sometimes that involves some fan service. And for me...that is alright. There are games that are 100% fantasy, and titillation is the clear mission statement, and that is fine. There are also games that are more realistic and "respectful" if you will, and that is fine too.

Its great that something like Horizon can come out and make a really respectable, non-sexualized female protagonist in a big AAA game, and I hope we see more game efforts with this spirit. At the same time, I like me some Senran Kagura now and then too. Choice is a wonderful thing, and I would hate to see any genre of game be excluded or not made because one group doesn't approve. Likewise, if a female dev wants to make an equally shallow "hot guy" game, go for it. Might it get some mocking from some idiot portions of the male population- sure, but honestly, who cares about them? Such an effort wouldn't be aimed at them anyway. If a female audience bought and supported such a game to make the project successful, that would be great.

In the end, everything out there is going to face the scrutiny of the public's reaction- see Kojima and Quiet in MGS5- that was pretty heavily lampooned, and I would like to think that will come into future consideration in his games. (or maybe not!) At the end of the day, its his sales numbers on the line if he makes products that aren't pleasing his audience- and he is seeking a mass audience for sure given the scope of his games- so he probably be trying hard to please everyone. This philosophy really should apply to any AAA production- they can't afford to lose sales when they need 5 million plus sales to just pull even on a project.

On the flip end- something like Senran Kagura- not really intended for (straight) women at all, and likewise could offend many others too, but they are obviously catering to their smallish niche, and that's where that product exists- and that is perfectly fine too.

I mean yeah but it's worth noting stuff like Horizon doesn't just come about just because. There was noticeable push back against this sorts of stuff that developers too notice of and acted according (even Japanese developers are aware of this push back). It takes effort and risk for products like Horizon to come about in comparison to sticking with the status which is why discussion like this is important. If these sorts of dicussions didn't happen many developers wouldn't know how important this sort of stuff actually is and thus make multi-million dollars bets to capitalize on. AAA Games and games in gamers in general are a risky business. This ongoing discourse in important for any sort of change to other or did occur.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
The point is clearly some women like erotic stories that involve erotic domination.

Just like some one like to watch porn that brothers having sex with their sisters, or mothers, or whole family.

Learn the difference between sexual fantasy and reality.

If you think that many women only want a dominant man in bed in fiction, you're wrong

I want to say that there can also be a place for games, and it's just a small part of all the games that get made, where a game with Quiet can exist
Thats all

I understand some people dont like it
But others do

And no you can not say the same of racism for many reasons
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,697
Honest question for female members: since this sort of stuff is likely not going away any time soon, would you prefer the developer/designer just being more up front about titillating male-focused fan service rather than making up bullshit post-rationalized excuses for its existence within certain games? It would certainly be nice to see less objectification and more interesting and varied roles for women within games in general, but insofar as a developer going down the objectification route, wouldn't it just be better to be more up front about it?
 

Deleted member 29939

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,572
RE: Dragon's Crown...that warrior nun pose is soooome bullshit
3dkae28.jpg

Ddmittedly the chastity belt was funny and a great subtle touch, but the rest of this is hardly subtle...and I think that's a big part of the problem, it's never subtle sexy... IT'S SEXY-SEXY, it's "look-at-these-tits" sexy, it's the framing, it's that men are often dressed from HEAD TO TOE, but women seem to find arbitrary reasons to show off skin

What's bullshit about the nun image though?
Its not trying to be subtle about putting a nun in a stripper pose at all. Its going for it 100% fully knowing its not an accepted outlook on how we should view women or spirituality/religion, and its doing it in an exagerated enough way that you should not be wondering if the artist was being straight faced about it.
Dragon's Crown was never made as a window to current social views. Its deliberately stuck in the past, from its style to its gameplay/genre and artistic influences. And it does it with tons of care, talent and research.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,910
I just prefer hot characters, both male and female, in my games. Games are fantasy and I want, at the very least, for the main characters to be easy on the eyes. Again this goes for the male and female characters. I'm not opposed to "realistic" portrayals but I prefer unrealistic in my games lol. I'm not faulting others for being offended just saying what I prefer.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
So we've got Quiet, Cindy
Cammy?
What other games recently?
Nier Automata I read
Skull Girls
What are others?
 

Deleted member 6733

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,441
I just prefer hot characters, both male and female, in my games. Games are fantasy and I want, at the very least, for the main characters to be easy on the eyes. Again this goes for the male and female characters. I'm not opposed to "realistic" portrayals but I prefer unrealistic in my games lol. I'm not faulting others for being offended just saying what I prefer.

I'm cool with hot characters but it's how they're presented. I find Lara Croft (cliche I know) incredibly hot in the TR remakes. She's wearing clothes just as you'd expect women to. Shocking. She's hot but not objectified, in my opinion. And that's ok.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,736
I agree with everything OP.

Don't get me wrong, I love strong sex-ed up women designs ONLY if she is the main character and she's entirely bad bitch. I live for it (aka, OG Tomb Raider, Bayonetta)...

But sexualizing female characters for the sake of sexualizing then is so tired and eye rolling. Quiet is a piece of shit character. If she was say like a Mystique, I can deal with that because her skin issue would pretty much explain all of that but in her current form, it's just a waste

But, men are also sexualized in a way. Gladious is pretty much sexualized with his no shirt, tattoo having slick back hair hot guy so it's fair to call this out. And many other male characters are created in this dude bro kind of way that can also show on the other spectrum who it can look for men who look nothing like that. But at the same time, those are design choices that does not come at the cost of power, or clothing choices, weird camera angles to appeal to women, the way they do for men and that's the disconnect.

Now if Hot Ryu was wearing a jock strap with a huge bulge up front, then sure, we can question whether or not this is also true for male characters but that rarely barely ever happens because video games aren't there to appease women. Women get the bad end of the stick when it comes to design and it sucks. That doesn't mean she can't be great, but why dismiss her character with a shitty overly sexualized costume that takes away from what makes her great. It's not fair and it's so frustrating.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
So, most of this post isn't a response at all to what I was saying. You go into a large diatribe about "internet outrage cutlure" and "name calling", which I don't think is representative of my posts at all, and you also bring up someone like Yoko Taro, a creator whom I actually have a lot of respect for, despite me never mentioning him. So when I pick and choose quotes from it, it's more to engage with legitimate arguments than it is an attempt to misrepresent you.



So this is part of an argument where you imply that I'm calling developers bad people (I'm not) and implying that they should spend their days arguing on forums (fucking lol), but the idea that artists aren't responsible for their fans is a popular one, so I'll address that point. All art, either explicitly or implicitly communicates values of some sort. Those values might not be intentional and might actually be something that the creator strongly disagrees with. If, as an artist, you see a large amount of people doing something you find morally reprehensible and using your art, again either explicitly or implicitly, as a justification for those horrible acts, you might want to examine your creation, see how those values were communicated, and try to avoid those issues in the next thing you create.



Men are not entitled to "getting the girl". Your association of men who don't have a lot of sex as "unsuccessful males" is really the heart of this whole issue. The characterization of women as 'thing men pine over and compete for' as opposed to 'regular people with their own agency in the world' is the root problem of objectification. I'm not saying this is your worldview, but it is the worldview expressed by a lot of games. And when games that are targeted at people who are socially awkward and don't have a lot of real relationships (not sexual relationships, just relationships in general) with actual women, those people are more likely to buy into that worldview.

tl;dr Artists do have some responsibility (the degree of which is debatable) when the terrible worldview exhibited by their fans is the same terrible worldview exhibited by their art.

You're misconstruing my argument there. I'm giving the foundations for how some of the minds in people who are harassing/abusive/confrontational and aggressive think/behave. They turn their frustrations at not being successful males into resentment and aggression. Hate the world, hate everyone else that has what they want and so on.

I've made it very clear multiple times, being a virgin, being unsuccessful with women and being socially awkward doesn't always mean you becoming hateful and resentful. It's simply that the factors around such social exclusion and social retardation can lead many males to foster resentment and anger. Instead of working on their own problems, their own lack of education, their own life, it's much easier to just throw hate and resentment at other people. It's an intoxicating drug not to better yourself, but just hate others to make yourself "feel better". Try and make others cry/feel pain/be upset and that means someone else is "more miserable" than you. Therefore you're in a better position. It's a bastardized form of jealousy. People attempting to tear down other people in order to make themselves feel better.

Humans are a social species, as much as they are sexual. If you're failing socially you'll probably be suffering, and if you're failing sexually on top, even more, suffering. People can try to combat their self-confidence issues, anxiety and depression and build paths to social contact, sexual contact and so on in healthy ways. It's just that many don't achieve or strive for this, and hunker down and seek out others like themselves. Sometimes leading to young men being radicalised into aggressive hate groups, like a form of tribalism.

As for fantasy being used to "get the women". Welcome to fantasy. Why do people read novels that play up financial success, beauty, popularity and so on? Fantasy in whatever medium is often used by people to feel better about what they think they're missing in their own lives. Often that is "the women" so to speak, just like for some women it is "the man of their dreams".

For everything else we'll just agree to disagree, I just wanted to come back and say the way you worded the bolded part of your post didn't personally seem like what I was trying to convey.
 
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Clix

Banned
Sexualization is not inherently bad. But sexualizing men and women does not have the same societal effects. Like at all. Which is why you don't have anything resembling equivalent rates of sexual harassment and assualt amoung men vs women.

Even if we balanced out the sexualization with more of males (and this is a moot point because that is not going to happen) as long as the female characters are objects before characters you still have a problem. The sexualization of male character still has decades of precedence that they primarily can exist as anything. Not the same for women in the gaming sphere.

I don't think the base of the argument is that big boobs and butts on characters is bad inherently. It's that the portrayal of women in games places them as objects first and everything secondary and that is problematic.

And that is a fair point, but where I diverge is that I have no issue with a male content creator indulging in sexualized fantasy. What we need is more female content creators creating and indulging in that as we see in other media. And that is where I circle back that I want more equal opportunity sexualization.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I just prefer hot characters, both male and female, in my games. Games are fantasy and I want, at the very least, for the main characters to be easy on the eyes. Again this goes for the male and female characters. I'm not opposed to "realistic" portrayals but I prefer unrealistic in my games lol. I'm not faulting others for being offended just saying what I prefer.
A character can be good-looking, even sexy, and not be overly objectified & trashy. Quiet could be less non-sensical and less objectified while still looking otherwise the same.

Uncharted's female characters are this way, especially Chloe. She's sexy but the game doesn't treat her like a sex object.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
Honest question for female members: since this sort of stuff is likely not going away any time soon, would you prefer the developer/designer just being more up front about titillating male-focused fan service rather than making up bullshit post-rationalized excuses for its existence within certain games? It would certainly be nice to see less objectification and more interesting and varied roles for women within games in general, but insofar as a developer going down the objectification route, wouldn't it just be better to be more up front about it?
I would prefer honesty than some fake excuse, especially when the latter often falls apart due to other characters set in the same universe not abiding by the same reasoning given in the excuse.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
If you think that many women only want a dominant man in bed in fiction, you're wrong

I want to say that there can also be a place for games, and it's just a small part of all the games that get made, where a game with Quiet can exist
Thats all

I understand some people dont like it
But others do

And no you can not say the same of racism for many reasons
No shit that's true for almost everything. We're talking about objectification in gaming here. An industry that is male dominated and doesn't listen to female wants anywhere near as much as men. How about you them decide what they do or do not want in their media.

To illustrate my point name me offf your head how many games/series that you know of that exclusive cater/pander towards woman?
 

Ln Wanderer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
46
I find myself voting with my wallet on this issue more and more. I just don't dig the over sexualization of women in these games and I tend to not buy them. It takes me right out of the game when a female character sticks out like a sore thumb. I just want them to exist in the game world as a character that makes sense. Not because I want to look at tits. Luckily, it seems that some western developers are starting to get the hint and are making female characters that have goals and desires of their own. Senua from Hellblade springs to mind.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,403
Canada
What's bullshit about the nun image though?
Its not trying to be subtle about putting a nun in a stripper pose at all. Its going for it 100% fully knowing its not an accepted outlook on how we should view women or spirituality/religion, and its doing it in an exagerated enough way that you should not be wondering if the artist was being straight faced about it.
Dragon's Crown was never made as a window to current social views. Its deliberately stuck in the past, from its style to its gameplay/genre and artistic influences. And it does it with tons of care, talent and research.

It's a fucking nun dying with her legs spread apart; it's FAR from subtle and if Dragon's Crown is trying to hark back to them olden times where that stuff was "acceptable" then I'd say the art reflects inspiration rather than any sort of parody. Furthermore, if it was JUST knocking on spirituality and religion, it sure loves sending the same theme to every female character in this game. Vanillaware games clearly enjoy 'ogling' the female body and have often exaggerated features for most of them. To say what you're saying ignores that this hasn't been done in a BUNCH of their titles where virtually every adult female.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
And we are allowed to criticize it for how horrible it is in context of the game and even outside of it. Kojima's games don't exist in a vacuum and these things, especially in the case of a horribly handled character like Quiet, affect the overall enjoyment many have of the end product.

Creative people aren't above criticism. They can be racist, sexist, homophobic and there's absolutely nothing wrong with calling them out on it. Maybe they'll take some of the criticism to heart and CHOOSE TO DESIGN DIFFERENTLY, not treating women as mere sex objects to be gawked at.


Please show me even a single professional female mechanic who dresses they way Cindy does. (Some) women dress differently (though a lot have t-shirts & jeans, just like men), but they don't run around in bikini armors in a blizzard. They dress appropriately for the climate & situation at hand.

So you want me to find a Final Fantasy character in the real world?

But I see the problem now
It's not her clothing, but her clothing as a mechanic
If she would dress like that when off work, then there would be no problem right?

I guess what you are saying does make some sense
 

Bio

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Denver, Colorado
I can understand why women would be frustrated. Quite simply, there are a ton of products out there that simply are not made for them. Which is a shame, and probably a big mistake given their growing percentage of the gaming population, and the reality of AAA development which needs every sale they can get.

Women have been a big percentage of overall players for a very long time now; a surprising number of them simply mask that when playing online to avoid being harassed. Given the examples I've seen of what a lot of female gamers go through, I can't say I blame them. The majority of the games industry still insists on pandering to the vocal male minority who clamors for this stuff. Also, I don't think it's just women who are frustrated, or should be frustrated. As a man I'm frustrated and insulted that game developers so consistently seem to think this is what I want from a game, that big tits and bouncy asses are the only qualities in females I could possibly admire.

I'm bothered because games can only get much better when it starts treating women like real people who actually contribute to the world being the way it is, because when that happens we get better storytelling in general. Good narrative, regardless of medium, speaks to the truth of the human condition, and video games are often completely removed from that kind of storytelling by treating half of the population like sexpots to be won, traded and used for gratification.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
I like that Cindy redesign, but the way Cindy was designed was very obviously made for cosplay. I still think its a flawed design, but thats obviously what they were going for.
 

Deleted member 29939

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,572
I never for a second looked at Cindy and went "this broke my immersion because mechanics dont wear this". They were clearly going for the pin-up girl/americana asthetic with Cindy and the autoshop in FF15.
The problem was the game doesnt have enough of this era-specific look and feel to not make it stand out I guess. Should've went all out.
 

鬼作.

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
394
In addition to the countless testimonies of women (including in this thread), you have research that underlines why overall sexual objectification is "a bad thing" ->

And then even a literal organized harassment campaign against women in games. Like literally sites to doxx and harass anyone who is a woman in games.

So perhaps building up a culture that views women as pleasurable objects for straight dudes was not a good thing, considering the rampant misogyny in video games culture. And with that in mind, maybe it's not the most creative or interesting thing to have another penis-pleasure representation for the millionth time. I mean it's not like these 'crybabies' can't get their penis stroked elsewhere - basically most of our visual culture revolves around sexualizing the female body, so these dudes can just get aroused by the billionth of other media that is made for them.

None of this is really relevant to my post though? I said that porn games are not a replacement for fanservice content, the appeal is different, so the argument that "nooo, I don't want to take away your boobies, DOAXtreme is fine, see!", makes no sense. You want to take aways something that is of value to others, the least you could do is actually stand by it, without pretending that you come from of a position that benefits everybody.

Enjoying tits and ass in video games becoming a catalyst for misogyny is really not a concept that becomes more tangible with you posting a study how women tend to prefer female protags with more clothes, so that was random.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
And that is a fair point, but where I diverge is that I have no issue with a male content creator indulging in sexualized fantasy. What we need is more female content creators creating and indulging in that as we see in other media. And that is where I circle back that I want more equal opportunity sexualization.
It's not a problem if someone specifically makes such sexual fantasy games (i.e. Senran Kagura, lots of Japanese visual novels), it is a problem in a game like Metal Gear Solid that tries to convey a somewhat serious & realistic world & story for the most part (with scifi elements & some goofy shit), but then you've got Kojima mo-capping female models nude and treating a big portion of the female characters as something you are pretty much forced to oggle at in completely ridiculous scenarios.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,411
I kind of wish people who start to focus more and more on anime. It's getting worse and worse, and creepier and creepier, but no one seems to be making a big deal about it. Everyone seems to be focusing on stuff like Quiet in MGSV or Lara Croft, while ignoring how fucking gross a lot of anime and anime-themed games are getting. I mean, anime, in my opinion, was always kind of creepy before, but it keeps hitting new levels of creep every year.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,403
Canada
So we've got Quiet, Cindy
Cammy?
What other games recently?
Nier Automata I read
Skull Girls
What are others?

ffproject-ff2-04a.jpg

This has been everywhere for a very long time
1988's Maria (form Final Fantasy 2) with....single metallic breast cup held my silk.

Personally have more of a problem with Japan still sexualizing children in games

I really hate this one. The fact a lot of Japanese games have a whole loli-fascination is just....strange and ugly.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,910
I'm cool with hot characters but it's how they're presented. I find Lara Croft (cliche I know) incredibly hot in the TR remakes. She's wearing clothes just as you'd expect women to. Shocking. She's hot but not objectified, in my opinion. And that's ok.

Oh ya I don't want Dragon's Crown levels of sexualization lol. More like what you are saying. I just want the main characters(men and women) to be attractive not necessarily sexualized.
 

StoveOven

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,234
For everything else we'll just agree to disagree, I just wanted to come back and say the way you worded the bolded part of your post didn't personally seem like what I was trying to convey.

I went out of my way to state (and even bolded) that I'm not talking about your worldview but the worldview of the games you're defending. It's pretty clear that you understand that worldview is fucked up. I then just don't see how you can't understand that games (and other media, but this is a videogame forum) that reinforce this worldview have some sort of culpability, especially if their primary audience is people who, according to you, are so prone to being radicalized.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,910
A character can be good-looking, even sexy, and not be overly objectified & trashy. Quiet could be less non-sensical and less objectified while still looking otherwise the same.

Uncharted's female characters are this way, especially Chloe. She's sexy but the game doesn't treat her like a sex object.

Totally.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
Netherlands

And no, do they really exist?
I mean, when a thread pops up bringing up better women representation in games and you JUMP out saying everything is fine and women like being subjected by men as evidenced by a movie so nothing needs to change ... people might jump to conclusions.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,501
And that is a fair point, but where I diverge is that I have no issue with a male content creator indulging in sexualized fantasy. What we need is more female content creators creating and indulging in that as we see in other media. And that is where I circle back that I want more equal opportunity sexualization.

What if what women want is not to have the ability to objectify men for their tastes but rather not be objectified at all?

I am not a woman so I'm not saying that is what they want. I am saying you're approach works from the basis that since you enjoy sexualization in games for your tastes, we should give women the chance to do it. That works from the assumption that women want to do this.

Do you actually know if that's the case?
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I kind of wish people who start to focus more and more on anime. It's getting worse and worse, and creepier and creepier, but no one seems to be making a big deal about it. Everyone seems to be focusing on stuff like Quiet in MGSV or Lara Croft, while ignoring how fucking gross a lot of anime and anime-themed games are getting. I mean, anime, in my opinion, was always kind of creepy before, but it keeps hitting new levels of creep every year.
That's why I'm holding out hope for weakening effect of male otaku and stronger effect female otaku's have. You'll never be able to reverse course on that stuff without top down massive industry changes likely brought upon by a crash so the hope is for these studio's to focus less on very specific creepy groups.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
That's why I don't play 99% of Japanese games and I roll my eyes at people who do. Especially anime inspired games. Just wow. Being Japanese doesn't excuse it.
 
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