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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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This is why I originally made a female character in FFXIV. At the launch of both the original and A Realm Reborn, FFXIV actually did a very good job with treating the genders equally. Plate mail was plate mail regardless of your character's gender, and while there were scantily clad outfits to be had (like the coliseum garb), it was just as revealing when worn by men. I found this all very appealing. However, it has been slowly but surely changing over time. Unarmored thighs have become more and more prevalent, important NPCs have gotten new outfits that are more sexualized, and there's a lot more female-only "sexy" glamour gear than there used to be.
I guess I understand why people want to have this sort of thing available, but I also understand the concerns the OP laid out. I'm not sure what the resolution is beyond talking about it as much as possible so people are aware of the fact that this is a real issue.
The problem with Cindy is the problem with a large portion of games we are discussing. Her design would be fine if it was contexualized with the rest of the world but it isn't. It doesnt make sense, its like that for gaze.
A recent example is Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I think Pyra is a good design. Too bad it literally doesn't make any sense in context with the rest of the world and characters. It's just stupidly out of place because male gaze guided it.
I get it, it's fantasy and she's a sword girl and they fight dinosaurs and shoot fire but at some point I feel like people are justified in saying "come the fuck on".
To be fair, I was a Dragoon/Bard male hume in 1.0 and switched to a female cat in ARR... suddenly my Dragoon armor had a hole in the stomach for no reason at all and my bard outfit had a cleavage because a shirt was removed.
AF2 in Heavensward were a big improvement though, outfits were the same men and women. Heavensward' AF2 looked fantastic!
I dunno about how it is in Stormblood, not playing anymore.
If Netherlands is anything like Finland, then I very much doubt Netherlands is some kind of gender equality utopia where differences don't exist anymore or where women even have it better. I assume that, being fairly similar countries in a lot of aspects, in Netherlands girls do better in school than boys but otherwise men still come ahead in the long run when it comes to having more senior positions, better job prospects in general, better wages, how they are generally treated (i.e. amount of sexual harassment of men vs. women & such) etc.
The majority of Japanese developed games with women are centered on their fashion and sexualization. If they're not completely sexualized they're supposed to be cute baby faced innocent girls.
The cost to buy anime in Japan is extremely high and relying on otaku with money to burn is probably a good portion of why we get the shows we get now.
Also, for the record, I find the whole "It's their game, let them make it how they want to! If you don't like it, play something else." schtick to be insulting. It's like seeing a problem and being told to get over it and move on while the adults talk.
Just because a developer has creative freedom doesn't give them the right to reduce women to objects in order to satisfy horny boys. Make a porn game if that's what you're after, but don't put it in, say, an RPG that both genders may enjoy.
Just because a developer has creative freedom doesn't give them the right to reduce women to objects in order to satisfy horny boys. Make a porn game if that's what you're after, but don't put it in, say, an RPG that both genders may enjoy.
Well you see, i have never been suggesting that sexualized characters shouldn't exist. So I have no problem with it, nor do i think the game would particularly be better off if those characters weren't like that.
The only time I have an issue with it is when the women are unfairly sexualized in by comparison...and i dont think Tekken 7 really fits the bill here.
I've never really had an issue with Cammy, even when her nipples were visible (though I understand removing them obviously). Menat and Laura are very obviously trying to be sexy while they fight, Juri as well (in a different way anyway). But I don't really have an issue with that. I think the reason is because the Street Fighter V characters all put off a vibe of confidence and personality that falls in line with all of their animations. The sexuality is definitely obvious, but it doesn't feel as though it's there for no reason other than to be sexual. With Mika? Again, even when she had her ass slap, nothing about Mika or how she animates is sexually suggestive. It's flamboyant, yeah, and that makes sense, considering what she is.
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Caulifla has parachute pants. A tube top isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't like Kale's design. She's a typical anime girl in her mannerisms.
Caulifla has a great personality and is the leader of a gang. She's badass.
The studies were relevant in terms of the overall state of games where the spaces clearly are constructed to exclude certain people who are put off by the nonsensical sexually objectifying pandering to straight dudes. Then I also mentioned the link between misogyny in games culture overall and how the broader palette reinforce these norms with e.g. the examples of organized terror campaigns, individual harassment cases, the treatment of women in the industry, and the general silencing of women in games culture. With this misogynist culture in mind, I tried to illustrate that perhaps treating female characters as objects for straight male pleasure might not be the best form of creative production a major game developer or publisher might introduce.
There's a fine line between an attractive character and a very sexualized character. Context matters too.
As a guy who loves women... there's been times even I cringed at designs and then there's been times where I didn't think it was so bad. It really depends on the character, context, etc.
I don't get why people are attacking OP. Let OP live. Lol sheesh.
As a guy who loves women... there's been times even I cringed at designs and then there's been times where I didn't think it was so bad. It really depends on the character, context, etc.
I don't get why people are attacking OP. Let OP live. Lol sheesh.
You think going to fight for the survival of the universe in a tube top (one the magically stays on at that) makes sense?
Not really saying I have a problem with it. Just saying you are missing the hypocrisy in your statement.
You know what? No matter how much we can wring our hands about what is or isn't a problem Japanese creators will keep making sexy female characters to acclaim. If 2B or Bayo had remained sketches Era would think that they were sexist and trashy, but since they're out there we like them and rationalize it as "them owning their sexuality" or whatever. That's power, and all you can do is consume something else or just enjoy it, because foreign companies don't give a fuck
I think what people find silly is that men funnily enough never try to be sexy while they fight. They don't fondle their abs, nor do they needlessly flex and display their muscles during intros or special move animations. Again, they don't get dramatic close-ups to their butts either. See, Chun Li is sexualized in SFV but she still feels way classier and purposeful than Laura, because she's animated in a way that displays her skills first. Laura's intro tells you everything you need to know about her: tits here, ass there. Story mode: hey look, I'm almost topless, haha, I'm silly like that. Honestly regardless of blatant pandering, she's just a terrible character, period. And Mika is honestly okay, except her default costume asks you to pretend nipples don't exist in order for her to be practically topless. I don't even mind the butt slap, really.
There's no hypocrisy. If anything, it's a little stupid of you to think that a tube top is less than a karate gi. They're both thin ass layers of protection.
Not to mention, Dragon Ball is stupid. I won't deny it.
That's true, I forgot about the Dragoon AF. That was a pretty rare exception, though. None of the Stormblood AF I've seen so far has been that questionable, although they did finally start splitting the designs across gender to cater to male characters that don't want to always be wearing dress-like robes while healing. Which means the female White Mage AF is super girly (not in a sexualized way).
I don't mind hot attractive Normal real life clothes worn by women themselves everyday in real life as an optional clothes that I may equip them from time to time and exchange with other clothes for fun and That includes Swimsuits for example , They are Digital Characters after all and those are clothes worn in Real Life by Women themselves given the occasion , But My problem is when Developers forces me to play with a female character with disgusting extreme Slutty oversexuallized costumes as the only costume to play in the whole game , I was finally glad in MGSV when I had the option to get the XOF Costume and the Sniper Wolf Costume for Quiet instead of her default extreme slutty costume
Also The Bigger Issue than the clothes are the nerdy Camera Angles and The Focus on Certain Body Parts , This Will look disgusting even on normal modest clothes
Also The Bigger Issue than the clothes are the nerdy Camera Angles and The Focus on Certain Body Parts , This Will look disgusting even on normal modest clothes
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The freedom a creator has to make anything in whatever way, shape or form he/she wants has the same basis that grant you the absolute freedom to criticize it however you want. I'd be careful about suggesting someone can't express him/herself.
I don't think you've sufficiently justified the existence of this link. Misogyny exists in any culture, not just gaming culture, as it's fundamentally a societal problem.
So just because some games developers choose to create female characters that exist as sexual objects, and misogyny exists in gaming culture, doesn't mean that there is an inherent causal link there at all.
In fact, I'm yet to find any sufficiently convincing evidence that any kind of sexual objectification can directly effect an unhealthy and misogynistic view of women in males in society; which is puzzling given how matter-of-factly this is often stated.
The funny thing about this is that I actually think Chun Li's Dress outfit is probably the worst example i can think of in the game. But as for characters like Laura, or Menat...:
This is why i'm okay with alot of the SFV characters. A character who's self-aware of her body is not the same as one who is just kind of wearing something because the designers know it's going to be titilizing. It sounds like there's no difference, but there totally is.
Perfect example here would be Quiet from MGSV and EVA from MGS3.
People don't actually rag on Quiet because she's hypersexualized. They rag on her because there is NO acknowledgement of her appearance or sexiness in the game itself. All the NPCs actually pretend to be disgusted with her despite her damn near objective attractiveness. The main character seems to be completely unaffected as well. And to make everything worse, the actual narrative reason of her sexualization was obviously only there to justify the fact that she's sexualized. 100% of the sexualization aspect of her character exists only for the player. If you were to alter her appearance, literally nothing about her or the game would be any different.
By comparison, nobody seems to ever complain about EVA from MGS3, but she was very clearly hypersexualized. The difference is probably because EVA uses her body and its effects to her advantage in the narrative itself. It's part of her character, it affects her surroundings within the game, it even affects the character you're controlling. There's no room to really criticize her the same way people criticize Quiet, because you literally can't remove the sexualization from her. That doesn't apply to most fighting game characters the way it does in that example, but it's still an aspect to consider when people have conversations about this.
This reminds me of the time one of the WoW devs said he liked playing female characters in WoW because he'd rather look at a woman's butt than a man's as he's running around Azeroth.
This is such a broad reach I'm not even sure how to react other than I guess you haven't been playing games too long because there are plenty that don't do this
I think it's a primarily an issue of ignorance and lack of appropriate socialisation rather than a willful desire to reinforce the idea that women exist for male pleasure.
The patriarchy has given rise to a culture that focuses on the differences between men and women rather than the similarities, so men often end up failing to form platonic friendships with women and end up fetishising them. I think that's what we're seeing in the type of media being discussed.
It's the same reason so many guys feel they're owed a woman's time simply because they overcame great discomfort and made themselves vulnerable in order to introduce themselves at a bar or a party. They're only focused on their experience because they haven't been taught to empathise with the experiences of the women they approach. And this stuff does have to be taught, either actively through learning communication skills, or passively through exposure to a more inclusive and mindful culture.
Women are not a minority, but just as white men had to be taught about gay men and men of colour through greater social integration before they could portray them as more than stereotypes in their writing, similar ignorance about and empathy for women is still in the process of being eroded. I think great progress had been made in the West, while Japan remains much more resistant to breaking down these barriers.
I think the issue of sexuality being portrayed in way that alienates women is symptomatic of a poor understanding of women, and that greater diversity amongst creatives and throughout culture will correct it - alongside all the other problematic areas of media that exist due to ignorance. Strides are being made in the right direction in the West, which is why Japanese games contrast so profoundly with western games these days in a way that they didn't back in the PS2 generation.
The patriarchy has given rise to a culture that focuses on the differences between men and women rather than the similarities, so men often end up failing to form platonic friendships with women and end up fetishising them. I think that's what we're seeing in the type of media being discussed.
It's the same reason so many guys feel they're owed a woman's time simply because they overcame great discomfort and made themselves vulnerable in order to introduce themselves at a bar or a party. They're only focused on their experience because they haven't been taught to empathise with the experiences of the women they approach. And this stuff does have to be taught, either actively through learning communication skills, or passively through exposure to a more inclusive and mindful culture.
Women are not a minority, but just as white men had to be taught about gay men and men of colour through greater social integration before they could portray them as more than stereotypes in their writing, similar ignorance about and empathy for women is still in the process of being eroded. I think great progress had been made in the West, while Japan remains much more resistant to breaking down these barriers.
I think the issue of sexuality being portrayed in way that alienates women is symptomatic of a poor understanding of women, and that greater diversity amongst creatives and throughout culture will correct it - alongside all the other problematic areas of media that exist due to ignorance. Strides are being made in the right direction in the West, which is why Japanese games contrast so profoundly with western games these days in a way that they didn't back in the PS2 generation.
I got a warning for posting this. This warning reinforced me in avoiding this topics like the plague. I was going to post lots of examples of games where this is not a problem but I don't wan't to risk my account because I really enjoy this forum for the most part. Have a nice discussion everybody, I am out of here.
And the thing is when games do design for women in mind, I have seen far too many guys going on about "PCness and SJWs have ruined my game!", "why are you making ugly females to satify feminists!" etc.. I don't see anyone going on about the dev's vision or art censorship to those guys. When it's guys asking for more sexy female characters, they are just giving feedback or "feeling ignored by devs even though they where super supportive fans". It feels like you can't win either way. My money is as good as a mans. I don't see why I can't ask for what I want: women characters with variety and who could actually be real people.
You don't think media has any effect on society???
On track though, haven't you heard Hollywood actresses complain how they're less paid up than their male stars, or that Wonder Woman was the FIRST solo female superhero in 11 years, or how younger actresses are being chosen/paired with older actors as love interests, or how women are still often saddled with less significant/secondary mom-roles?
Here's a bit from Meryl Streep:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/meryl-streep-i-wanted-to-be-tom-sawyer"From the time we're little girls," she said, "we read all of literature, you know, all of history. It's really about boys, most of it. But I can feel more like Peter Pan than Tinkerbell.... I wanted to be Tom Sawyer, not Becky."
Streep went on to say that male audiences' difficulty empathizing with a female protagonist comes from this historical bias. It's already hard to argue against that point, but when a 19-time Oscar nominee and three-time winner says it, it's pretty much impossible.
Women are still and always have been considered secondary citizens. Media may not be directly responsible, but it can enforce unfortunate stereotype or work to reaffirm and redemonstrate that.
Like I said before, Cammy does not even make sense storywise.
Cammy was a doll (bison minion) that was brainwashed and managed to escape and hate her time there so much that she is now using every fiber of her being to fight bison and free the other dolls.
This is cammy as a doll in a time that traumatized her for life
This is Cammy free of her traumatized life
ARE YOU FUCKING JOKING ME?
It is the same clothing but without sleeves!!!!!!
There are zero design changes to show that she regrets her past and is traumatized by it.
She is pratically wearing a trigger to her traumatical life.
I can criticize whomever and whatever I feel is necessary to get the point across that this shit isn't okay.
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You got warned because you're trying to put down the debate with a sweeping "Let's just play games" remark.
Furthermore, it's hard to find these non-sexualized games when SO MANY include it and furthermore it neglects the fact I can have two contrasting opinions (HOW HUMAN OF ME). Xenoblade is probably one of my FAVORITE series' out there, but I see every installment make women look ridiculous in some way with revealing outfits and awkward camera framing that chooses to show off these assets. I can have two opinions on the matter and I'd hate to stop playing the series because it does this dumb thing.
What gets me more is also bad rhetoric about why something that upsets me (and specifically, my gender) shouldn't upset me.
Except Gladiolus (or whatever his name is). You can apply the exact same criticisms of Cindy on him. Dude has no business dressing like that while fighting dangerous monsters.
Uhm...what? Maybe re-read my post...as i never said you can't criticize, quite the contrary.
Hey, I love Onechanbara and Blood Rayne. There's a place for games like that, just as there's a place for porn in a sex-positive but inclusive culture. The reason you'd get warned for saying "just go play something else" is because the issue being discussed affects so many games in so many genres. Don't like cheesecake? Don't play a cheesecake game. But people are being force-fed cheesecake in games that don't really need it to be what they're trying to be, due to developers' lack of awareness, and based on outdated assumptions about their target demographics. That's what's being discussed.
This is why I often make a case that's less against a sexy outfit and more against a perverted cameraman.
The Karen beach outfit was that:
It's a beach, so sure, there's probably a bikini. I also agree that women do and even enjoy wearing something sexy from time to time. But the way the camera pans outward from her ass as the focal point and eyes her up and down is just.... transparent. Furthermore, very few of the ladies in the SF series show much body distinction, they're all incredibly well-endowed and often have super moves that have the camera pan around them.
Usual rule of thumb: it's sexist if men don't get the same treatment. No male super has a body-ogling camera at work, whereas most of the female characters get tits, ass, or both highlighted.
Oh, was there a point he's bent over the car with his ass up front to the camera?
Did he wink at the screen, or does the camera fit his nipples in to the shot?
AND OH MY GOD GIRLS, THERE'S GLADIO, we can stop this debate, let's go lust for the one beefy male in the party, sexism is over <3 <3 <3
.... : /
Comparing Cindy and Gladio ignores a MASSIVE history where women have frequently been the attention of sexualization. But hey, thanks for the crumb, we got Gladio.
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In the case of FE: Warriors, its supposed to be fan service.
In the case of FE: Fates and Awakening, the whole marriage/kids deal is excessive, but particularly in fates with the face rubbing thing that mind you guys, a large majority of the fan base hated ( Even half the developers thought it was crossing the line). So, don't expect anything like this again in future FE games.
Calling FE 100% 'weeaboo' fanservice only tells me you havent even played the most recent game in the series ( Echoes), and not all the developers agree with some of the design choices of recent FE games. Theres a divide between older and newer developers at IS.
Anime, both for men and for women, is a fringe hobby. Still is. To be upset about Anime is like being upset about Deviantart. Anime caters to people who pay money to support it, and that meant things that cater to fetishes of both men and women of Japan.
I don't find it appealing when an attractive anime man have both his hands nailed to the floor and have blood flowing everywhere, but apparently some women find that irresistibly hot. I don't judge them, that's their private business. And if such women pay money to support that sort of thing to be made, I am not going to claim they are doing something wrong. After all, no real human is being harmed.
You said to be careful of "criticizing creative expression" or whatever.
It's almost headache-inducing the speed and regularity with which the equal-opportunity objectification/sexism retort comes up.
It's real simple: The sexual objectification of a man isn't the same as with a woman because a man being sexually objectified doesn't remove his agency to be all the other things a man is normally (stereotypically) seen as being: powerful, smart, authoritative, etc. The sexual objectification of women is done almost to the exclusion of any other possibilities of what a woman can be. Women are sex objects by default. Men are sex objects as a derivation from the norm and often played for a laugh.
Pointing out instances of sexual objectification of men (or pointlessly announcing your openness to it) doesn't tip an invisible scale back toward the middle. A man in hot-pants doesn't suddenly make it okay to remove a woman's agency or autonomy.
It's real simple: The sexual objectification of a man isn't the same as with a woman because a man being sexually objectified doesn't remove his agency to be all the other things a man is normally (stereotypically) seen as being: powerful, smart, authoritative, etc. The sexual objectification of women is done almost to the exclusion of any other possibilities of what a woman can be. Women are sex objects by default. Men are sex objects as a derivation from the norm and often played for a laugh.
Pointing out instances of sexual objectification of men (or pointlessly announcing your openness to it) doesn't tip an invisible scale back toward the middle. A man in hot-pants doesn't suddenly make it okay to remove a woman's agency or autonomy.
To add to this, it's also quite difficult for women (or anyone bothered by the sexualization of women) to go and "play something else" when it's such a pervasive issue in game design and gamer culture. There are certainly games which treat women better than others, games that treat women well even, but they are the minority, and that we have to search for them at all is a disgrace.
People can express themselves, sure. But that doesn't absolve them from the consequences of their shitty opinions/creations, nor does it change the necessity to express your ideas in appropriate contexts. Personally I don't feel that a game rather E or T by the ESRB, or which targets these audiences, is an appropriate place for your creepy sexual fantasies. As Pirate Bae said, if you want to create virtual sex dolls, make a porn game. Go wild. Have a blast. Don't put it into something that isn't meant for sexual titillation, though, like a narrative or action game.
Feminism is everyone's problem. Men and women need to work together on it. It ultimately benefits everybody in the end. I respectfully recommend listening to Emma Watson's UN address because it's a great place to start with understanding this if you're at all interested.
And I actually disagree that sexy designs are only done because they always have been done. There is a reason why these designs are done. It sells to the largest games audience: men. Yes, a developer may "just like girls" but still, sex sells. It always has and it always will. It's attention grabbing.
Why does this expression have to frequently be at the detriment of women's representation to frequently be these silly sexualized play things?
I agree that a bit of sexy can be 'okay'. I think it's the level that developers try just WAAAAAY toooo hard:
There is nothing subtle about this. And it's fine if you like it, but can't expect everyone to just be silent about something overly ridiculous either.
Yeah they already talked about that.
Well i guess our conversation is over.
I never said they should be absolved of consequences, is my english REALLY that bad?
I don't know why you people are acting like i said things i, in fact, didn't. Did i say "this expression have to frequently be at the detriment of women's representation" ?
Great conversation -_-
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That's true, you didn't. That was more of a general comment. The second half of my sentence was more directed to you. Sorry if that was unclear.
It is when only the girls where outfits like that and the guys are wearing traditional martial arts clothing, spandex outfits or armour. You're just deflecting.
You can have fanservice without creating 13 year old characters or titty monsters whose sole purpose is to love the main character and who don't have much of a personality otherwise. And Echoes is unfortunately the exception, not the norm.
The paradox regarding this issue is that many of the franchises that heavily feature sexulised women (e.g. Dead or Alive, Skullgirls, Senran Kagura) tend to have lots of anecdotes about how much higher the proportion of women who buy/play them compared to their genre peers. I have absolutely no idea why this seems to be a trend, and I'd love to see if this applies to other franchises (in particular, if Fire Emblem saw an uptick in the proportion of women who buy/play them with Awakening and Fates).
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