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Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,498
A mountain in the US
This is tangential but can we please stop referring to women as "females"? It's dehumanising.
I completely understand what you're saying, but there are definitely times where there's not another good word. "Female viewership" works while "women viewership" doesn't. "Female protagonists" vs. "women protagonists." Is it just me? Sounds super off.

Obviously, though, saying something like "females objectify just as much as males do" sounds awkward as hell.
 

Common Knowledge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,256
There's a lot of discourse in feminist and critical analysis spaces regarding what the female gaze would look like if it can exist at all. Laura Mulvey's "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" is a touchstone text in this consideration; it should be fairly easy to find online. It's been some time since I read it but, if my memory serves, I think she more or less implies that it's impossible for a female gaze to exist as the male does because women lack the power to impose that gaze. In the context of this discussion, women do not sexualize or objectify men in the same pervasive, socially-condoned, universal ways that men do women. There's no parallel to the breasts or ass on the male body; one could maybe argue the penis is, simply because it is genitalia, but even then, it's frequently a symbol of male power and domination.

It's difficult to establish a female gaze when women lack the institutional power to create and implement it in works of media.

Hm, interesting. As a male, I tend to think about this stuff quite often as I become more and more informed of feminism, and the issue of sexual objectification. The female body has become such a universal symbol of a throwaway sex-object, and even as a straight guy I've become more and more put off by it the older and more educated I get. I quite literally roll my eyes now whenever I see an action movie trailer that has that 2 or 3 second shot of a woman in her bikini or lingerie with absolutely no context in between all the action scenes. Seriously, has any studies been done on that phenomenon? I swear there's hardly any exceptions to it.

And stuff like this has made me quite empathetic (well as much as I can be without actually being a woman and experiencing it first-hand) of how women have a real struggle when it comes to taking control of their sexualities. They're shoehorned into a specific role by society that permeates nearly everything in our culture. And it gets me when these discussions pop up and you get guys chiming in thinking they know exactly what women want, even going so far as saying, "women like sexualized, half-naked women too!" I mean, sure, on an individual basis, you might get that from time to time, but to have a guy making such blanket, unsubstantiated claims like that when they're literally in a discussion with women who very much do have a problem with it is such a grossly condescending, and entitled, mentality that frankly kind of pisses me off, almost as if they're saying a women's sexuality should be whatever a man tells her it should be.

Men, I feel (and probably because male sexuality is the most ubiquitous, and most glorified, type of sexuality in the majority of culture), have a pretty big issue in projecting their own sexuality onto everyone else in the world, thinking that what they like and find attractive and are ok with almost universally applies to everyone else, even for people with clearly defined differing sexualities. Like the fact that female objectification is so prominent all the time must be some sort of untold signature of approval from everybody that they're perfectly ok with it, without realizing that the only reason that is everywhere is because men with the same mentalities as theirs have been in charge of nearly every position of power since forever. Like what you brought up in your post I quoted, nobody knows if a "female gaze" can even really exist in the same way cause women have never been able to be in enough power to have such a concept become a widely utilized thing outside of niche forms of entertainment.

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling now, but these sorts of topics always let me see the sheer arrogance of some guys in a way that I don't witness otherwise, and it's frustrating to see what women have to deal with.
 
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Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,455
I completely understand what you're saying, but there are definitely times where there's not another good word. "Female viewership" works while "women viewership" doesn't. "Female protagonists" vs. "women protagonists." Is it just me? Sounds super off.

Obviously, though, saying something like "females objectify just as much as males do" sounds awkward as hell.

Oh no, female as adjective is fine. But "females" is nasty.
 

Elshoelace

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,375
Let me preface this by saying I agree with you that there needs to be less sexualization in games.

I think the reason people bring this up is because your thread title has you speaking for women, when it's only you for whom you speak. Then when people bring up other women who disagree, you say (rightfully) that they don't speak for women, only themselves. Neither do you, is their point. And your thread title suggests you do.
I don't get this at all. Should every thread be prefaced by this "some". It isn't a false thread title, women do criticize oversexualization in games and this is why. If you saw a thread titled "Why people don't like lootboxes" would we see the amount of users jumping in and saying well I know a person that likes lootboxes so you really should put "some" in your title and quit trying to speak for everyone? No we wouldn't.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
If we had more movies, television, and game representations of female doctors, I would guess that that riddle would be a lot less vexxing for people, because they would be used to the association.

That means you're looking to media to define gender roles to things that aren't gendered which just seems odd to me.

And oh man, the amount of threads where normal looking ladies are dragged through the dirt as being "purposefully uggo'd". The most famous example is probably Mass Effect's PeeBee. Another example I can think of was the final design for Alloy in Horizon.

Fair enough call out that it happens, but, and maybe this is just a result of where I hang out online, that certainly doesn't come across as the bulk of conversation. Also there should probably be a distinction between attractiveness in general and sexualization. Would Alloy be more sexualized with a face certain individuals found more attractive while leaving everything else intact?

A fandom sexualizing a character does not equal that character getting sexualized in the actual game they are in. Otherwise people would find Sonic fanart totes normal.

And yet you're taking a piece of fanart designed to juxtapose against the characterizations of those established characters as feeling weird. It feels weird for going against their characters alone as opposed to their genders, at least as I see it, while appealing to something someone wants within that context. If we're ignoring fan context than that image seems less than fair to even bring up and suggest an automatic disassociation based on gender roles.
 

HypedBeast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,058
Because your post is a false premise; you are bottlenecking the pool of examples by saying games that you know about it, this year we got Fates/GO, a big mobile game, isn't that game full of sexist crap? Also GBF? Or pretty much any gatcha game? Sure, some games have moved on from that. but you must consider all the stuff before saying such argument.

This year we got not one but TWO schoolgirl games in big consoles with breaking clothes.

The problem is as big as always, by reducing the scope the way you want, you will get, of course, the reply you want, but if you look at the whole picture, the problem is still there.
Sure and I understand that, I dont play every big game out there(though the games like Fate you just mentioned sound pretty niche).
My main issue is how you confronted me.Like do you not see how defensive you come off as when you immediately think "I owned you" or just summarize my post as "sigh".
Like if I don't know something man don't patronize me and expect me to hear what you have to say.Just talk to me as if you were talking to me in real life. Even for people I don't like I speak to respectfully to them.But you respond to me a stranger with malice and that rubs me the wrong way.
I just dont want us to get off on the wrong foot so Im sorry for bottlenecking the games I was talking about.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,498
A mountain in the US
I'd like to second this. "Females" (and "males") refer only to gender, not to species. "Women" means female humans. It really is literally dehumanizing. (Note: as a noun. Female as an adjective is another story.)
You rarely ever hear the opposite, unsurprisingly. "Males always act like that!" is something I've never heard. "Ugh... males... am I right, ladies?" This doesn't happen. It really does sound offensive.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402
I think the reason people bring this up is because your thread title has you speaking for women, when it's only you for whom you speak. Then when people bring up other women who disagree, you say (rightfully) that they don't speak for women, only themselves. Neither do you, is their point. And your thread title suggests you do.
No, saying "Why women do ___" is not "speaking for all women". See this:
I don't get this at all. Should every thread be prefaced by this "some". It isn't a false thread title, women do criticize oversexualization in games and this is why. If you saw a thread titled "Why people don't like lootboxes" would we see the amount of users jumping in and saying well I know a person that likes lootboxes so you really should put "some" in your title and quit trying to speak for everyone? No we wouldn't.
Pretty much.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I would argue the objectification in this example is more based on making homosexuality palatable/enjoyable for a heterosexual audience.
This is true. I was largely using it as example for which there was no possible scenario in which the male gaze could have occured. i could have also used an example in which the point of view is male from a women with their personality/ body is not in view and thus sole focused on their partner. But like I said before this purely about simple sexual desire not an insinuation that effects and perverts the life of men which would be ridiculous.
 

Talraen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
268
Connecticut
You rarely ever hear the opposite, unsurprisingly. "Males always act like that!" is something I've never heard. "Ugh... males... am I right, ladies?" This doesn't happen. It really does sound offensive.

I agree, if you do see "males" it's almost always used in tandem with "females." But I find it pays to fully understand the background of why this is a problem. I mean, I've seen people use "females" in a misguided attempt to be more respectful to women. This is one of those things I never thought about before someone explained it, but then immediately resolved never to do.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
You rarely ever hear the opposite, unsurprisingly. "Males always act like that!" is something I've never heard. "Ugh... males... am I right, ladies?" This doesn't happen. It really does sound offensive.

I have heard it, and never really thought of it as offensive, but will bear that in mind.
 
Oct 25, 2017
185
There's a lot of discourse in feminist and critical analysis spaces regarding what the female gaze would look like if it can exist at all. Laura Mulvey's "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" is a touchstone text in this consideration; it should be fairly easy to find online. It's been some time since I read it but, if my memory serves, I think she more or less implies that it's impossible for a female gaze to exist as the male does because women lack the power to impose that gaze. In the context of this discussion, women do not sexualize or objectify men in the same pervasive, socially-condoned, universal ways that men do women. There's no parallel to the breasts or ass on the male body; one could maybe argue the penis is, simply because it is genitalia, but even then, it's frequently a symbol of male power and domination.

It's difficult to establish a female gaze when women lack the institutional power to create and implement it in works of media.

Wonderfully said.

Also, yaoi is a niche that portrays homosexual relationship in less than ideal ways. Female objectification is pervasive in all forms of media, yaoi isn't. I would argue that yaoi didn't objectify men, but homosexual relationships themselves.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
You rarely ever hear the opposite, unsurprisingly. "Males always act like that!" is something I've never heard. "Ugh... males... am I right, ladies?" This doesn't happen. It really does sound offensive.
I use males an females coming when talking in a general case coming from a academic background. I don't refer to random people I see as females but your right it is extremely weird.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,498
A mountain in the US
I agree, if you do see "males" it's almost always used in tandem with "females." But I find it pays to fully understand the background of why this is a problem. I mean, I've seen people use "females" in a misguided attempt to be more respectful to women. This is one of those things I never thought about before someone explained it, but then immediately resolved never to do.
"I'm totally not a sexist guy! I love females!"
talking in a general case coming from a academic background
My degree involved reading and writing lots of essays, so I'm confused by this. It's usually men/women rather than male/female, unless you were doing something in science?
 

ShinkuTachi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,874
imo, people have varying ideas of how much sexualization is an "acceptable" amount of sexualization. Personally, I don't have an issue with sexy and even sexualized characters in general, but I feel like it should be spread out more evenly amongst male and female character designs. I mean, sure, there are some sexy or sexualized dudes out there in games, but the ladies really have that monopolized. That is the larger problem regarding this, imo
 
Oct 29, 2017
6,265
I feel compelled to add that personally, I don't even find many of those stereotypically sexualized outfits to be tillitating in the first place. They just look awkward and cringe-inducing. It's always a buzzkill when in a typical RPG you find a cool piece of armor which defaults to a male tooltip/UI icon, but when you put it on a female character it suddenly looks terrible.

And that's what I find especially grating about it.

Even if you're willing to look past the sexist nature of it AND what a shallow and cynical marketing ploy it is, more often than not the "sexy" designs are cringe-inducingly stupid on their own merits. Its a middle school kid's idea of sexiness.

For me, fanservicey character designs are only marginally better than stupid shit like microtransactions and lootboxes (and often ARE sold as microtransactions anyway). Like those, it is a lazy way of selling more product that ends up cheapening the experience overall.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
"I'm totally not a sexist guy! I love females!"

My degree involved reading and writing lots of essays, so I'm confused by this. It's usually men/women rather than male/female, unless you were doing something in science?
Yeah academic as in science. I read males and females all the time in various paper and you have to write in specific way when talking about certain sorts of things. Done it so much that talking about men and women in certain ways without using those terms feels a bit weird. Sorry for any offense.

I completely understand what you're saying, but there are definitely times where there's not another good word. "Female viewership" works while "women viewership" doesn't. "Female protagonists" vs. "women protagonists." Is it just me? Sounds super off.

Obviously, though, saying something like "females objectify just as much as males do" sounds awkward as hell.
Oh yeah this too.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
17,973
I'd like to second this. "Females" (and "males") refer only to gender, not to species. "Women" means female humans. It really is literally dehumanizing. (Note: as a noun. Female as an adjective is another story.)

This deserves to be its own thread, stickied if necessary. It might even make more progress on the issue than this thread is making, valiant try it may be.
 

HypedBeast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,058
imo, people have varying ideas of how much sexualization is an "acceptable" amount of sexualization. Personally, I don't have an issue with sexy and even sexualized characters in general, but I feel like it should be spread out more evenly amongst male and female character designs. I mean, sure, there are some sexy or sexualized dudes out there in games, but the ladies really have monopolized. That is the larger problem regarding this, imo
Yeah I feel everyone has a different level of tolerance towards sexualization, and depending on your history, background, and experiences you will have a different reaction to it.
The same kind of applies to violence in a way. I don't like very realistic violence, and my limit is bone and limbs being broken, or small things like teeth and nails being destroyed. Some people really like extreme violence because it gets them into the game, but for me personally it makes me squirm. And that is fine, because I don't expect everyone to think exactly as I do.
That was a great point Pyrofrost.
 

Talraen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
268
Connecticut
This [...] might even make more progress on the issue than this thread is making, valiant try it may be.

Not to be self-promoting, but I agree. This is something I was told about at a time when I was significantly more resistant to being told specific terms were offensive, and it still hit me hard. I think it's something people honestly do not realize the implications of. Kind of like how I've heard countless stories which parallel my own of learning that "gypped" is a slur, and almost no stories of anyone continuing to use it despite knowing that. Education works!
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
No, saying "Why women do ___" is not "speaking for all women". See this:

Pretty much.
So if a woman made a thread titled "Why women don't mind sexualised character designs" you wouldn't take umbrage with that title? Even if you did not, I feel confident that many would chime in about how they don't speak for women. You think we wouldn't see that? You wouldn't see women saying that they're a woman and they do mind?
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,699
"I'm totally not a sexist guy! I love females!"

My degree involved reading and writing lots of essays, so I'm confused by this. It's usually men/women rather than male/female, unless you were doing something in science?

When delving into the area of biological tendencies for a particular sex or comparing and contrasting the differences between them, I think using the terms "males" and "females" is pretty standard. In that context, I'm not sure why it would be offensive.
 

Fauxpaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
330
1.) That means you're looking to media to define gender roles to things that aren't gendered which just seems odd to me.



2.) Fair enough call out that it happens, but, and maybe this is just a result of where I hang out online, that certainly doesn't come across as the bulk of conversation. Also there should probably be a distinction between attractiveness in general and sexualization. Would Alloy be more sexualized with a face certain individuals found more attractive while leaving everything else intact?



3.) And yet you're taking a piece of fanart designed to juxtapose against the characterizations of those established characters as feeling weird. It feels weird for going against their characters alone as opposed to their genders, at least as I see it, while appealing to something someone wants within that context. If we're ignoring fan context than that image seems less than fair to even bring up and suggest an automatic disassociation based on gender roles.

I'm numbering these because it will be a pain for me to split them up properly:

1.) No, it means our brains are not rational, and that our brains our lazy. There's a reason why minorities want better representation in media, and it's not only to see someone they can relate to more. They want to have better representations of themselves that defy lazy stereotypes, because they are aware that those stereotypes reinforce beliefs. Media affects us and our values. If it didn't, propaganda wouldn't be popular or effective, and Coca-cola wouldn't pay $1 million+ dollars for a two minute ad during the Super Bowl.

2.) It usually comes across in the fact that people are so used to seeing a specific way women are represented, that when they don't see it, they think it was "made intentionally worse". With Alloy, I think you raise a good point about the distinction between "sexualized" and "attractive" (I believe I am getting off-topic from the OP there). Attractiveness does play a large role in sexualization, however. You often see sexualized women in the 16-24 age range. This is very prominent in movies. Once an actress hits 30, she's relegated to the "witch" role.

3.) My main point with Morri's post was that to most of society, that picture will be really fucking odd, because we are not used to men being sexualized in that way. There is almost no male equivalent. I have no clue who those characters are, and yes, that picture looks crazy odd because men are usually sexually shown in a position of power and dominance. They aren't twisting around to show us "the goods".

Flight of the Conchords touched on this brilliantly with their song "Suga Lumps". It's funny and absurd because we are not used to men being sexualized in such a way (but yes, it's also because their lyrics are hilarious). https://genius.com/Flight-of-the-conchords-sugalumps-lyrics . It is at odds with how we view the sexual male and his role in society, and it adds to the humor. Make this song about a woman's ass, and it loses part of the absurdity because those songs already exist.
 

Aurica

音楽オタク - Comics Council 2020
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,498
A mountain in the US
When delving into the area of biological tendencies for a particular sex or comparing and contrasting the differences between them, I think using the terms "males" and "females" is pretty standard. In that context, I'm not sure why it would be offensive.
Right. That's what I was saying. It would be weird outside of a scientific context.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
It may not cause an obvious, physical result. The problem is that the change is often more insidious and affects the lazy part of your brain that likes to immediately reaffirm things it already believes. For example: The thought experiment involving the child who gets in a car wreck with his dad, and the doctor says "I can't operate on him, he's my son". I have yet to meet a person who automatically is like, "Oh well duh, it's the mom!" Usually people are like, "Huh? What? How?" If you asked a person on their own, "Are there female doctors?", they would definitely say yes. But this experiment taps into the part of your brain that assumes and makes quick judgements, so unless you have a lot of experience with female doctors, the answer doesn't come to you right away because your brain equates "doctor" with "male".

How does this relate to videogames and other popular culture? Well, the more you see a specific gender in a certain role, the more you associate that role with that gender. You do this subconsciously. If you see ten male nurses and one female nurse, you can get the opposite effect. Your mind makes quick associations with what it's familiar with. So if you see 100 sexy women for every 1 "normal" one, the normal one is the one that feels weird, and to think that this does not extend beyond the media you consume isn't realistic. Yes, these are short, fleeting thoughts, but they are still thoughts and they build on themselves. Morrigan's picture of the "sexy dudes" is a perfect example of this.

I fully accept this as it's most likely also demonstrable in a lab setting with showing people images and asking for responses. As many internal biases can be demonstrated clinically. People feeling "more comfortable" with roles such as nursing is something I'm especially aware of too. I'm in a field where many prefer a female voice to talk to, when it comes to therapy, emotions, feelings and so on. Does this mean men can't be nurses, psychologists, care takers, etc? Of course not, but that's sometimes as you pointed out what biases can lead to. However, psychological and biological differences can sometimes play a role in partly why the caretaking industry, psychology and psychiatry is heavily female dominated. Women can generally be more nurturing, caring and able to talk emotions than some men (a generalisation yes, but one with some grounding in behavioural psychology). Not all biases are inherently sinister either, it's going to be quite easy to have a male brain respond positively or in a certain way to a provocative female body image/slides if they are attracted to the opposite sex.

Well educated and reasonable people can still accept in their brains that "the real world" isn't necessarily what excites them the same as idealised beliefs, bias or fantasy. Part of this is relayed in education about porn. Helping people understand that acting and highly graphic stimulation is often spliced up and presented how it is to exploit your brain, eyes, beliefs and so on. As long as individuals understand all of this and can react accordingly, then it's all part of being human. The human mind is still an animal mind and has all our glorious years of evolution backing it, but what we have is a higher intelligence to handle that, understand it and make sure behaving and acting like a decent fucking person is important.
 
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Pirate Bae

Edelgard Feet Appreciator
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,799
??
So if a woman made a thread titled "Why women don't mind sexualised character designs" you wouldn't take umbrage with that title? Even if you did not, I feel confident that many would chime in about how they don't speak for women. You think we wouldn't see that? You wouldn't see women saying that they're a woman and they do mind?
I mean, you've got a number of women in here, posting their experiences, perceptions, and thoughts regarding the issue at hand, and they still get dismissed, so does the wording of the thread title really matter? I don't really see your point, other than that you're kind of splitting hairs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
Yeah I feel everyone has a different level of tolerance towards sexualization, and depending on your history, background, and experiences you will have a different reaction to it.
The same kind of applies to violence in a way. I don't like very realistic violence, and my limit is bone and limbs being broken, or small things like teeth and nails being destroyed. Some people really like extreme violence because it gets them into the game, but for me personally it makes me squirm. And that is fine, because I don't expect everyone to think exactly as I do.
That was a great point Pyrofrost.

Maybe there is a worthwhile discussion to be had on the prevalence of violence in the media as well. But, that shouldn't be a used to dance around or devalue the topic of sexualisation.

Also as a side, violence for the most part doesn't discriminate.
 
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OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,455
I mean, you've got a number of women in here, posting their experiences, perceptions, and thoughts regarding the issue at hand, and they still get dismissed, so does the wording of the thread title really matter? I don't really see your point, other than that you're kind of splitting hairs.

People will use any excuse they can to delegitimise women's opinions and complaints ‍♀️
 

Valcrist

Tic-Tac-Toe Champion
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,710
To be honest the whole subject is confusing. To put it in MMO terms, a lot of my female friends wear the sluttiest glamours possible in FFXIV. But then there are some who dress like I would, just stylishly. I feel like there is room for both? For all genders, for that matter. For me though, sex never sold me a game. Even though I'm pretty sure 2B sold a fuckload of copies of Nier Automata, I went in for a crazy Yoko Taro story.
 

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,198
Las Vegas
I want to stay far away from discussions like this... but I'd like to say... I only have a problem with people condemning such outfits as "Bad Design"... Artistically it's all opinion based anyway... but I have seen people criticize an artists work as bad design because they disagree with the sexualization of it. Many times it is not bad art or design just a bad Idea...
 

Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,102
"Female viewership" works while "women viewership" doesn't. "Female protagonists" vs. "women protagonists." Is it just me? Sounds super off.

When you say "women protagonists", you're using "women" as an adjective to describe "protagonists". I've seen people to do it, but it sounds off to me too.

Use "female" when you need an adjective, and "women" when you need a noun.
 

HypedBeast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,058
Maybe there is a worthwhile discussion to be had on the prevalence of violence in the media as well. But, that shouldn't be a used to dance around or devalue the topic of sexualisation.

Also as a side, violence for the most part doesn't discriminate.
I would agree that sexualisation can be a big part for some genres in particular (nowadays it's most present in fighting games and JRPGs), however I feel that for the most part the industry has moved away from sexualising female characters.

And I know you may be thinking"thats just the western side of the industry," but the Western video game industry is more influential nowadays, so the AAA games like Horizon, Dishonored, Wolfenstien, Uncharted, Last of Us, etc won't contain that kind of content. You do have outliers like Overwatch and MOBAs, but I feel you can have both, as long as the audience that dislikes sexualization gets catered to as well.
 
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HypedBeast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,058
I want to stay far away from discussions like this... but I'd like to say... I only have a problem with people condemning such outfits as "Bad Design"... Artistically it's all opinion based anyway... but I have seen people criticize an artists work as bad design because they disagree with the sexualization of it. Many times it is not bad art or design just a bad Idea...
I made a thread about this yesterday
https://www.resetera.com/threads/sexualized-designs-do-not-equal-bad-designs.4361/
 

CrazyHal

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,327
My standards are pretty high when it comes to character design and more often than not, when i see a female character in a sexy/revealing outfit in a game that's meant to be taken seriously, it's a case of bad character design.

See, there's 1 very important things to consider when designing a character's outfit.

Does the outfit match the personality of the character?

I'm my experience, i see japanese devs failing at this pretty often. How many times have you seen a female character in a japanese game that expect you to take it seriously, wear a sexy and revealing outfit despite said character not having a sexual and seductive personality? Pretty often i bet. Way i see it, this is sex appeal done poorly. It's force, jarring and just feels out of place.

Recent examples: Ann from Persona 5. Velvet from Tales of Berseria. Pyra from Xenoblade 2.

It feels to me like these characters designers just slap provocative outfits on these girls without any though or reason. It's lazy. They can't honestly expect us to take these characters seriously. (I certainly can't at least). If your gonna go the *ridiculous design that makes no sense* route, then either go all out or don't. Senran Kaguya, Deception 4, the disgaea series. These are games that embrace their own ridiculousness and certainly don't expect the player to take seriously which is why it works. What doesn't work is putting a little bit of that ridiculousness in a game that you expect players to take seriously.

It's not gonna happen.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,539
These topics are quite interesting to read through, even if they also tend to bring a lot of conflicting thoughts and emotions.

On the one hand, I do fully agree that the best possible depictions of sexually attractive male or female characters are those that match the surrounding context. This is something that a lot of games have failed at accomplishing. However, it's still valid to come up with various combinations of contexts within the same fictional world, not just limited to those based on strictly defined genre (or, for that matter, gender) lines. That requires a more thoughtful and careful crafting of a game's presentation and its implications. Most game developers just don't seem to put a lot of time and effort into thinking about this topic.

Therefore, it's also worth mentioning how certain character designs can still be judged as subjectively bad even within a fitting context. I believe another thread on this forum has already provided a platform for discussing how any given piece of artwork can either succeed or fail in terms of its own visual merits, beyond whatever degree of nudity, skin exposure or sexualization is involved. Art can still have inherent value in our eyes, one way or another, regardless of whether it happens to be considered clean or dirty.

On the other hand, I believe that the question of agency is a key part of the equation. I am going to argue that a lot less people would be mad about Quiet, regardless of her silly outfit, if the game's storytelling treated her much better as a whole. Not with respect to Kojima's almost literally incredible explanation for her lack of clothing, but in terms of improving her entire portrayal and giving it more complexity or relevance. As things stand, there's a couple of interesting themes being thrown around during the events of MGS V that you can connect back to Quiet, on paper, yet the game doesn't really attempt to give her enough attention nor agency to argue it somehow respected her as a person. She could be written out without requiring major changes to the plot (and yes, I know we can already tell this much in practice).

In that sense, I feel game developers need to focus on providing more options and variety to female players in order to continue addressing and eventually overcoming the problems discussed here. There can and should be many more female characters, including both sexualized and non-sexualized individuals, with both small and large active roles within a game's narrative, rather than just having a token girl or two. It's not a question of erasing all sexuality or sexualization. That's not even a realistic outcome.

I think most people realize that games are a reflection of the state of society, rather than the other way around. The act of changing games can only produce a very limited and marginal impact on society and culture, especially in the middle of such a fragmented gaming and media consumption landscape. Games have become more mainstream, but we spend less time playing each of them. There are occasional exceptions, yet I would suggest that every individual game, no matter how good or bad it is, has far less of a relative or absolute influence on its target audience in 2017 than in 1997 or 2007.

Even so, we still need to have more women as game directors, writers, character designers and creative personnel in general in order to let their voices, preferences, interests and concerns contribute to the game development process. Those who are afraid that listening to more women will lead to all games suddenly removing all sexy clothes are overreacting and also underestimating the kinds of deeper contributions that would have a more useful effect than that on any given game.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
I mean, you've got a number of women in here, posting their experiences, perceptions, and thoughts regarding the issue at hand, and they still get dismissed, so does the wording of the thread title really matter? I don't really see your point, other than that you're kind of splitting hairs.
As I said in my first post, I agree with OP's view. I was answering a specific musing OP had about why people were bringing up counter-examples. She didn't like those, and felt they were dismissive. I think changing the title to "Why I criticise" or "Why some women criticise" or "Why many women criticize" would cut down on the number of replies she sees as dismissive, and improve the quality of her thread.

And yes, I'm a big believer in qualifiers. While they may seem obviously implied to the speaker, the receiver very often doesn't get the implied qualifier on their end. I mean, we've all known people who DO believe they speak for an entire group, so how is the receiver to know without a verbalized qualifier? Some will guess it's implied, some will not. Verbalizing it removes doubt with very little effort.
 

HypedBeast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,058
My standards are pretty high when it comes to character design and more often than not, when i see a female character in a sexy/revealing outfit in a game that's meant to be taken seriously, it's a case of bad character design.

See, there's 1 very important things to consider when designing a character's outfit.

Does the outfit match the personality of the character?

I'm my experience, i see japanese devs failing at this pretty often. How many times have you seen a female character in a japanese game that expect you to take it seriously, wear a sexy and revealing outfit despite said character not having a sexual and seductive personality? Pretty often i bet. Way i see it, this is sex appeal done poorly. It feels force, jarring and just feels out of place.

Recent examples: Ann from Persona 5. Velvet from Tales of Berseria. Pyra from Xenoblade 2.

It feels to me like these characters designers just slap provocative outfits on these girls without any though or reason. It's lazy. They can't honestly expect us to take these characters seriously. (I certainly can't at least). If your gonna go the *ridiculous design that makes no sense* route, then either go all out or don't. Senran Kaguya, Deception 4, the disgaea series. These are games that embrace their own ridiculousness and certainly don't expect the player to take seriously which is why it works. What doesn't work is putting a little bit of that ridiculousness in a game that you expect players to take seriously.

It's not gonna happen.
I agree, which is why I think fighting games are able to get away with theses kind of designs. Not only are they just cool looking characters with a lot of personality, but fighting games have a ridiculous tone that suit these designs
ino-dbguitar.jpg

kinu_nishimura___chun_li_juri_ibuki_by_hes6789-daicu50.png
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
So if a woman made a thread titled "Why women don't mind sexualised character designs" you wouldn't take umbrage with that title? Even if you did not, I feel confident that many would chime in about how they don't speak for women. You think we wouldn't see that? You wouldn't see women saying that they're a woman and they do mind?
Your point should then result in a thread full of women gamers disagreeing with the thread title right here and now.

Could you please point to them? I haven't seen any.
 

mandiller

Member
Oct 27, 2017
573
Australia
On the issue of Quiet in MGSV. I actually haven't played the game yet but I've got it in my PS Plus queue. Now that the Pro patch has come out I was actually interested in playing it, but the character design of Quiet is actively putting me off starting. The character's clothing is ridiculous and cringy, to the point that it'd make me a bit embarrassed to be playing the game. My wife would rightly flip out about how dumb it is if she saw that in the TV. (And yes. I did read the story reason why she's dressed like that)

Just an example of this sort of thing totally backfiring. Skimpy crap like this or Xenoblade Chronicles 2 actively puts me off playing. The designs are just too dumb and sexist.
 

HypedBeast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,058
On the issue of Quiet in MGSV. I actually haven't played the game yet but I've got it in my PS Plus queue. Now that the Pro patch has come out I was actually interested in playing it, but the character design of Quiet is actively putting me off starting. The character's clothing is ridiculous and cringy, to the point that it'd make me a bit embarrassed to be playing the game. My wife would rightly flip out about how dumb it is if she saw that in the TV. (And yes. I did read the story reason why she's dressed like that)

Just an example of this sort of thing totally backfiring. Skimpy crap like this or Xenoblade Chronicles 2 actively puts me off playing. The designs are just too dumb and sexist.
Well do you dislike the designs because they are sexualized, or do you dislike them because they are really bad character designs. I think it's important to make a distinction because more often than not bad design tend to be embarrassing anyway.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Why are men here so incredibly aroused by the idea of questioning every experience and criticism brought forward by women on this topic? I mean, I get that a discussion is a discussion, but what makes you think that your super original opinion about shit like "men are sexualized too!" is even remotely worthy of discussion yet again on every single page of every single thread on the matter even though the same arguments have been rebutted just as many times?

We could be discussing how to solve these issues, how to inspire more female devs to take on lead design roles by challenging the stereotypes that shut out their ideas thanks to management/marketing and how to educate people who aren't well versed in basic feminist critique of art/entertainment. Instead we have to go in circles explaining the same basic stuff ad nauseum. Sigh. More power to all of you great folks who still have the patience for this.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
My standards are pretty high when it comes to character design and more often than not, when i see a female character in a sexy/revealing outfit in a game that's meant to be taken seriously, it's a case of bad character design.

See, there's 1 very important things to consider when designing a character's outfit.

Does the outfit match the personality of the character?

I'm my experience, i see japanese devs failing at this pretty often. How many times have you seen a female character in a japanese game that expect you to take it seriously, wear a sexy and revealing outfit despite said character not having a sexual and seductive personality? Pretty often i bet. Way i see it, this is sex appeal done poorly. It's force, jarring and just feels out of place.

Recent examples: Ann from Persona 5. Velvet from Tales of Berseria. Pyra from Xenoblade 2.

It feels to me like these characters designers just slap provocative outfits on these girls without any though or reason. It's lazy. They can't honestly expect us to take these characters seriously. (I certainly can't at least). If your gonna go the *ridiculous design that makes no sense* route, then either go all out or don't. Senran Kaguya, Deception 4, the disgaea series. These are games that embrace their own ridiculousness and certainly don't expect the player to take seriously which is why it works. What doesn't work is putting a little bit of that ridiculousness in a game that you expect players to take seriously.

It's not gonna happen.
Oh my goodness, this post is so many of my thoughts exactly! It really irritates me how often these kinds of stupid designs are given a pass because so many people commenting on these games can't be arsed to apply even the most basic of critical thought to how they're portrayed vs how they're characterized. I mean, it's really surface-level stuff, yet apparently even that much is too much to ask from a lot of people.

It's an intellectual wasteland out here on the Internet, is what I'm saying. I really would rather like to talk about this and far, far less often about the stupid and cheap justifications people use to justify this pandering.
 

Pirate Bae

Edelgard Feet Appreciator
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,799
??
As I said in my first post, I agree with OP's view. I was answering a specific musing OP had about why people were bringing up counter-examples. She didn't like those, and felt they were dismissive. I think changing the title to "Why I criticise" or "Why some women criticise" or "Why many women criticize" would cut down on the number of replies she sees as dismissive, and improve the quality of her thread.

And yes, I'm a big believer in qualifiers. While they may seem obviously implied to the speaker, the receiver very often doesn't get the implied qualifier on their end. I mean, we've all known people who DO believe they speak for an entire group, so how is the receiver to know without a verbalized qualifier? Some will guess it's implied, some will not. Verbalizing it removes doubt with very little effort.
Yeah but...we're all in a pretty strong agreement. All the women here are saying the same thing. I still don't see your point.
 

Evon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
180
Austria
Not to be a grammar Nazi, but woman is a noun. You should have said female gamers, because female is an adjective.

Both women gamers and female gamers can be used and in contrast to using females as a noun, women gamers is not dehumanizing.

You can read more on it here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/opinion/18iht-edsafire.4943390.html
New York Times said:
In modifying another noun, woman is what the O.E.D. labels an apposite noun — explaining, even identifying, the noun it "stands next to" — but syntactically stronger than an adjective. Both words can be used as modifiers of nouns, but the noun woman has more weight.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
Your point should then result in a thread full of women gamers disagreeing with the thread title right here and now.

Could you please point to them? I haven't seen any.

Yeah but...we're all in a pretty strong agreement. All the women here are saying the same thing. I still don't see your point.

To answer both of these, I think "Why women on ResetERA criticize" would have been a strong enough qualifier (although overly limiting, since obviously many women not on ResetERA also agree) to reduce the amounts of posts OP finds dismissive. The demographic of people here doesn't really match the demographic of most people's real life experiences, so you're going to have people bring in outside anecdotal tales if they take umbrage with the breadth of the title.

But yes, you're both right that, as far as I can tell, the women on ResetERA are pretty much unanimous in this regard. The question I was answering didn't have to do with the opinion of people on this message board, it had to do with how language is generally perceived and received, and an attempt to help OP cut down on replies she didn't like.
 
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