Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Phoenix RISING · Nov 7, 2017

Pirate Bae said:
I mean, I'm totally in love with Yen too, but what's your point? If you're gonna come in here and talk about your body preferences on video game women, then don't. It's detrimental to the discussion and it only further proves our point.

Literally nowhere in your post do you discuss the topics presented in the OP.

I disagree. Look:

Persephone said:
I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming when one of the biggest examples of that--that serves to both reinforce and reflect sexist viewpoints--is consistently let slide?

Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure. It's not "puritanism", it's wanting to be treated like **** people.

There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. Complaining about that would be prudishness, and a little ridiculous. But it often seems like developers are so desperate for boobs that they're willing to break the audience's suspension of disbelief and hurt their own narrative in the process, and it's like, wow, do you really want to objectify women that badly? Can't you just leave us alone for five **** minutes? Because Quiet breathing through her skin is not a compelling reason for a trash bag bikini, within the narrative or outside of it. If you really, really want to stick with the skin-breathing, **** , just dress her in a sports bra and running shorts. At least that would be practical, and not grossly out of character. Cindy is a mechanic in the **** desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please? We're just so **** tired of this. And then we get steamrolled by dudes who barge in and try to insist that this **** is actually empowering and we're just prudes, and, like, we get it, you don't want anyone to take your boobs away, stop pretending it's some righteous cause, thanks.

(I've talked about objectified female characters in gaming before, and I have received some amazing responses: I'm jealous because I'm a fat ugly loser; I have no idea what I'm talking about and Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist; "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"... you get the idea. Still, hopefully this time will go a little better.)

In my very first sentence, I say that I'm a prude, which directly addresses the OP's first sentence.

I did not address the specific examples that the OP uses because I have not played MGSV or whatever game Noctis and Cindy come from, so I had to produce my own examples of what I find tasteful and practical.

Elsewhere in the topic, OP includes the example of a topless female barbarian that they believe is better in design than one that isn't, because of proportions, lack of breast support, etc. And so I provided an example of my ideal female barbarian, ideal fighting game character (not Dead or Alive).

Maybe you just glossed over my post and did not see the parallels.

Phoenix RISING said:
I *am* a prude. Therefore, I don't really see the need for all the displays of skin.

But if I have to look at it, I prefer it as follows:

The best design of a female character ever is Yennifer.

And unlike all the other sorceresses, she's fully-clothed (there are arguably aesthetic/cultural/story reasons for this given where she was during Witcher 1 and Witcher 2), and reveals flesh strategically (grandmothers use to say show one or the other; never both). At any rate, there isn't a more intelligent woman players can encounter over the span of 3 Witcher games...probably in any game I've played.

In the first 25 seconds of this video is the greatest comeback line I've heard a woman say in a video game. Made me chuckle and miss the rest of the conversation the first time I played.

I also enjoyed what she had to say about the bed.

She has her soft moments, too. Exquisitely balanced, exciting character. In every scene she's in, she enraptures. Massive contrast from what I am accustomed to, from eye candy to designs that ask me to suspend disbelief even beyond disbelief.

Second best design goes to the female barbarian in Diablo III.

She is a biiiiig gurl, and I LOVE it. I mean, if you want to talk about sex appeal, this woman can commit demonic genocide while dual-wielding gigantic axes and keep you warm atop a cold mountain. If folks want to talk about body positivism, compare those wide hips that are for bearing armor that would crush most men.

OG Vanessa from VF4 is my third all-time favorite female character design. She looks like if Serena Williams picked up MMA instead of a tennis racket. That booty is skronk, and she will kick your butt hard!

Fauxpaw · Nov 7, 2017

Phoenix RISING said:
I disagree. Look:

In my very first sentence, I say that I'm a prude, which directly addresses the OP's first sentence.

I did not address the specific examples that the OP uses because I have not played MGSV or whatever game Noctis and Cindy come from, so I had to produce my own examples of what I find tasteful and practical.

Elsewhere in the topic, OP includes the example of a topless female barbarian that they believe is better in design than one that isn't, because of proportions, lack of breast support, etc. And so I provided an example of my ideal female barbarian, ideal fighting game character (not Dead or Alive).

Maybe you just glossed over my post and did not see the parallels.

But we're talking from the point of view of women, and how for most of us, it's not about prudishness (something we are often accused of).

Pirate Bae · Nov 7, 2017

Phoenix RISING said:
I disagree. Look:

In my very first sentence, I say that I'm a prude, which directly addresses the OP's first sentence.

I did not address the specific examples that the OP uses because I have not played MGSV or whatever game Noctis and Cindy come from, so I had to produce my own examples of what I find tasteful and practical.

Elsewhere in the topic, OP includes the example of a topless female barbarian that they believe is better in design than one that isn't, because of proportions, lack of breast support, etc. And so I provided an example of my ideal female barbarian, ideal fighting game character (not Dead or Alive).

Maybe you just glossed over my post and did not see the parallels.

I read your post several times, actually. I see nothing but you talking about different female body types and why each of them are, to you, so great.

You even say it yourself. "I prefer character designs as follows..." and "she's a big girl and I LOVE IT". No one asked for your preferences. The topic is about oversexualization of female characters and why it's bad and harmful to women as a whole. You provide ideals, for you, but have yet to elaborate on why they're good examples to the topic.

NickMitch · Nov 7, 2017

I think it is fair to be tired of, provoked by, insulted by, entertained by, excited by, infuriated by, humored by the sexualization of characters in games. It's a part of it being a work of art albeit infused with ideology or politics in some extent. I believe that artists aim for perfection and tend to let their own interpretation of that concept, their knowledge of general behaviour and their fear of breaking conventions lead to further cement the tropes and stereotypical portrayals.

It is much safer to stay on the established path than to head into new frontiers. That don't make it justifiable or "right" but until it's definitely not morally justifiable from a business point of view, we will continue to be exposed for these tropes. Sexyness is overall very safe and has been for a veeery long time.
I personally dont get offended but i wouldn't be opposed to see a shift away from sexualisation where it is obviously not part in the whole intent of a piece of art or entertainment. #lookingatyoushadowofwar
#iwouldhavelikedquietevenifsheworeahazmatsuit

Deleted member 8001 · Nov 7, 2017

Persephone said:
I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming when one of the biggest examples of that--that serves to both reinforce and reflect sexist viewpoints--is consistently let slide?

Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure. It's not "puritanism", it's wanting to be treated like goddamn people.

There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. Complaining about that would be prudishness, and a little ridiculous. But it often seems like developers are so desperate for boobs that they're willing to break the audience's suspension of disbelief and hurt their own narrative in the process, and it's like, wow, do you really want to objectify women that badly? Can't you just leave us alone for five fucking minutes? Because Quiet breathing through her skin is not a compelling reason for a trash bag bikini, within the narrative or outside of it. If you really, really want to stick with the skin-breathing, fuck, just dress her in a sports bra and running shorts. At least that would be practical, and not grossly out of character. Cindy is a mechanic in the fucking desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please? We're just so fucking tired of this. And then we get steamrolled by dudes who barge in and try to insist that this shit is actually empowering and we're just prudes, and, like, we get it, you don't want anyone to take your boobs away, stop pretending it's some righteous cause, thanks.

(I've talked about objectified female characters in gaming before, and I have received some amazing responses: I'm jealous because I'm a fat ugly loser; I have no idea what I'm talking about and Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist; "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"... you get the idea. Still, hopefully this time will go a little better.)

Exactly my thoughts that I've been attempting to get across for years. Absolutely agree with this and good job on this well written, well thought out post.

Sturm · Nov 7, 2017

Brotherhood93 said:
Yeah, this is kinda the point I was trying to make. I don't like sexualised characters but others do, I'm not sure if there's anything inherently wrong with that. I'd be interested to see if there's any studies between exposure to sexualised characters and sexist behaviour, I must admit I am pretty ignorant as to whether they exist or not, but part of me feels like those who blame misogyny on depictions of female characters are similar to those who blame real-world violence on violent video games. Most people are old enough and mature enough to know the difference between a sexy video game character and a real human being although I can also see the argument that it can warp people's perception of reality when the women are sometimes only there for titillation, especially for younger, adolescent players. It's not a simple issue to dissect that's for certain because everybody seems to have differing opinions on what is or isn't acceptable/tasteful.

In case it helps you in something you talk about adolescent players., I'm 40 years old I'm married and I have two children. That is, there is no concrete profile of age or status for any type of taste. I simply have the same tastes as millions of men on the planet and it is very natural.

Furnace Inferno · Nov 7, 2017

Redcrayon said:
What do you mean by cognitive differences here? Can you expand on that?

Seeing as men in shooters seem to be able to shrug off dozens of bullet wounds and heroes in RPGs regularly take down monsters and gods twenty times their size, I don't really see how the comparatively small differences between men and women matter too much in heroic games. Even in fighting games where trained male/female athletes are directly opposed, magic powers, jumps twice the height of a man and insane gravity-defying skills are regularly shown off, so the female characters perhaps having less strength is a minor issue compared to the variety of blokes body shapes ranging up to eight feet tall while the women are all tiny.

There's always some dramatic license and suspension of disbelief required for heroes- a distant offshoot of this is comedy characters in RPGs beating up special ops troops with improvised weapons. If you can cope with a bloke shrugging off gunfire, I don't really see why a heroine running faster or beating up a guy is so fantastical in comparison.

I'm not bothered in games which aren't realistic to begin with but those which are semi-realistic I just find it dumb. What's the point of even having female characters if they are just reskinned male ones? That's why I find it worse than what they are wearing because I don't even pay attention to clothes unless it's really outrageous (men or women not dressed for the cold for example, Drake would have died almost instantly in Uncharted 2).

Things like adding women as character players just to make it look like they care I find more insulting when you have AC Syndicate where there are no differences or COD WW2 where they were never there.

I mean different cognitive reasoning of things women are generally better/worse at and having puzzles geared towards those. I also meant personality traits but I realise now that's irrelevant anyway because it's not as if any male characters are particularly deep.

CannonFodder52 said:
Games allow people to play out extremely fantasised feats of strength regardless of gender.
I get what you're saying and I'd definitely be happy to see more diverse body types of women in games, but I don't have any issue with average bodied characters doing inhuman things especially when we see it across both genders. Do you get cognitive dissonance when someone uses bullet time?

If there is an explained reason for it I don't mind but if you are playing GTAV and you drive into a cop who for no apparent reason has super powers and just punches your car instantly exploding and killing you then sure it would bother me.

shintoki · Nov 7, 2017

Good female design doesn't necessarily mean more clothed at times. Though, it doesn't hurt. Kaine from Nier is a great example of a good character, but shitacular design.

While Triss, even though her initial design was shit in Witcher, her character was solid. Glad they fixed the design in II and III.

Pancracio17 · Nov 7, 2017

Gabe said:
I can relate to this completely as a fellow Makoto fan, but it raises another interesting question: especially in fighting games you have fat male characters usually having a "fat moveset".

By that i mean many moves play on the fatness of the character itself.

I 'm wondering if having an extremely fat woman in a fighting game with "fat movesets" wouldn't raise shitstorms around the web as well.
And yes you can of course have "normal" movesets (like rufus for example which is super nimble despite the size) but that's a whole different argument.

You dont have to make them fat. Putting someone like Zarya in a fighting game wouldnt be hard at all.

Syril · Nov 7, 2017

Furnace Inferno said:
What's the point of even having female characters if they are just reskinned male ones?

Why does there need to be some special reason for representing half the human population though?

Fairy Godmother · Nov 7, 2017

Persephone said:
I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming when one of the biggest examples of that--that serves to both reinforce and reflect sexist viewpoints--is consistently let slide?

Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure. It's not "puritanism", it's wanting to be treated like goddamn people.

There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. Complaining about that would be prudishness, and a little ridiculous. But it often seems like developers are so desperate for boobs that they're willing to break the audience's suspension of disbelief and hurt their own narrative in the process, and it's like, wow, do you really want to objectify women that badly? Can't you just leave us alone for five fucking minutes? Because Quiet breathing through her skin is not a compelling reason for a trash bag bikini, within the narrative or outside of it. If you really, really want to stick with the skin-breathing, fuck, just dress her in a sports bra and running shorts. At least that would be practical, and not grossly out of character. Cindy is a mechanic in the fucking desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please? We're just so fucking tired of this. And then we get steamrolled by dudes who barge in and try to insist that this shit is actually empowering and we're just prudes, and, like, we get it, you don't want anyone to take your boobs away, stop pretending it's some righteous cause, thanks.

(I've talked about objectified female characters in gaming before, and I have received some amazing responses: I'm jealous because I'm a fat ugly loser; I have no idea what I'm talking about and Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist; "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"... you get the idea. Still, hopefully this time will go a little better.)

Nicely put together! Good work, OP.

Also I have to comment on the way some people who would provide examples of male power fantasy as if it's as humiliating as female objectification.

One other thing that irks me is when people jokes on making the man's crotch area larger and assimilate it to sexualised big breasts in women.

Phoenix RISING said:
I *am* a prude. Therefore, I don't really see the need for all the displays of skin.

But if I have to look at it, I prefer it as follows:

The best design of a female character ever is Yennifer.

And unlike all the other sorceresses, she's fully-clothed (there are arguably aesthetic/cultural/story reasons for this given where she was during Witcher 1 and Witcher 2), and reveals flesh strategically (grandmothers use to say show one or the other; never both). At any rate, there isn't a more intelligent woman players can encounter over the span of 3 Witcher games...probably in any game I've played.

In the first 25 seconds of this video is the greatest comeback line I've heard a woman say in a video game. Made me chuckle and miss the rest of the conversation the first time I played.

I also enjoyed what she had to say about the bed.

She has her soft moments, too. Exquisitely balanced, exciting character. In every scene she's in, she enraptures. Massive contrast from what I am accustomed to, from eye candy to designs that ask me to suspend disbelief even beyond disbelief.

Second best design goes to the female barbarian in Diablo III.

She is a biiiiig gurl, and I LOVE it. I mean, if you want to talk about sex appeal, this woman can commit demonic genocide while dual-wielding gigantic axes and keep you warm atop a cold mountain. If folks want to talk about body positivism, compare those wide hips that are for bearing armor that would crush most men.

OG Vanessa from VF4 is my third all-time favorite female character design. She looks like if Serena Williams picked up MMA instead of a tennis racket. That booty is skronk, and she will kick your butt hard!

Okay I'm biased. If the woman has big ass muscle I would like to see more of her body in game. I think muscular women are awesome!

Gabe · Nov 7, 2017

Pancracio17 said:
You dont have to make them fat. Putting someone like Zarya in a fighting game wouldnt be hard at all.

I know you "don't have to", but providing a different scenario to what i used as an example doesn't really answer the question.
I just wonder if that would open a new can of worms.
Aswell as making a female character, let' say, super ugly and dumb as a brick and have that be her main trait (like the new guy in sfv whose name i forgot).

EDIT: for more context, since we talk about representation, this is how Zarya is described

"Aleksandra Zaryanova is one of the world's strongest women, a celebrated athlete who sacrificed personal glory to protect her family, friends, and country in a time of war."

Now, i wonder how the female public would react to a character that has the same ugly looks and bio as this one:
"Zarya is shown to be quite dimwitted, hot tempered and childish." (From Abigail's page)

Morrigan · Nov 7, 2017

Furnace Inferno said:
What's the point of even having female characters if they are just reskinned male ones?

Furnace Inferno said:
Things like adding women as character players just to make it look like they care I find more insulting

I'm sorry, what? Women exist. They don't need a "point" or a "justification" to be included and/or represented. This... insults you?

Trup1aya · Nov 7, 2017

I always find Overly sexualized women in games always confusing rather than titilating.

We are about to go fight off a swarm of hellspawn determined to destroy humanity... so why are you half naked instead of wearing armor like everyone else?

Who actually buys games BECAUSE of the female eye candy? Is there a pocket of gamers who would overlook stellar gameplay if the female lead was dressed practically?

CannonFodder52 · Nov 7, 2017

Furnace Inferno said:
If there is an explained reason for it I don't mind but if you are playing GTAV and you drive into a cop who for no apparent reason has super powers and just punches your car instantly exploding and killing you then sure it would bother me.

I mean, they almost never explain why men act far beyond the physical capability of even the strongest or most agile humans. Why do you need explanations specifically for women?

Your example seems kinda unrelated, as it's usually the player character that acts beyond human capability as opposed to the grunt enemies you fight.

endlessflood · Nov 7, 2017

Fauxpaw said:
But we're talking from the point of view of women, and how for most of us, it's not about prudishness (something we are often accused of).

The cringeworthy character designs are self-evident I think. In some cases though I think that people arguing against them can go a little too far in order to make a point, and then it can come off as prudishness.

In Dragon's Dogma you can make support characters (that other people can use in their game), and when I dressed my female one (a mage) in a full length robe with shorts underneath, because it was the best I could do with the starting equipment, I copped bad reviews from two members at the other forum because too much skin on her legs was showing. My character was sent back in completely different clothing, with a long tunic and trousers underneath the full length robe so that no skin was visible whatsoever. It seemed like an overreaction to me, especially since I had been playing a shirtless barbarian! It definitely came across as prudish, at least to me.

Furnace Inferno · Nov 7, 2017

Morrigan said:
I'm sorry, what? Women exist. They don't need a "point" or a "justification" to be included and/or represented. This... insults you?

The fact they are just reskins of a male model rather than their own design is what I find to be an insult. A toggle switch between male and female really shows the devs don't care.

someday · Nov 7, 2017

I'm a lesbian that loves video games. I only give my sexuality so that y'all can understand that I absolutely love women and their bodies.

That said, I agree with the women here saying that this sexualized design of so many female characters makes me wildly uncomfortable and will guarantee that I skip playing and paying money for a game that relies on it. The idea that because straight men like women and therefore it's only natural that they reduce female characters to sex objects is utterly ridiculous. You can like women and still treat their representations with respect.

Poketune · Nov 7, 2017

Jmdajr said:
I like Street Fighter. Always have. But when I play V with my daughter I feel, well...embarrassed. The character designs/outfits are absolutely preposterous. Ridiculous. I can't defend it. When we play I just refer to them as "silly."

It's why I've taken the time to install mods for the PC version so that everyone is dressed sensibly.

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 7, 2017

Sturm said:
In case it helps you in something you talk about adolescent players., I'm 40 years old I'm married and I have two children. That is, there is no concrete profile of age or status for any type of taste. I simply have the same tastes as millions of men on the planet and it is very natural.

It is not natural, it is socially constructed. A better word would be normal, since that is the way it is expected for mens to act. If we lived in another reality where womens would not be seen / treated as an object for men pleasure then sexualization might not be a problem, but we do not live in that reality and games and other media reinforcing that image of womens is problematic. Specially in games where womens are sexualized just because the author wants it and it does not bring anything to the game.

Morrigan · Nov 7, 2017

Furnace Inferno said:
The fact they are just reskins of a male model rather than their own design is what I find to be an insult. A toggle switch between male and female really shows the devs don't care.

Got examples of what you have in mind that is so insulting? A lot of games have low budgets and I'd personally prefer a simple model swap over not having representation at all. Going with the "lazy devs" rhetoric isn't very cool.

cosmicblizzard · Nov 7, 2017

Elshoelace said:
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...

I don't see what's wrong with what I said. Media is transformative once it's consumed. It's why death of the author is a valid form of analysis. It goes much further than "Ashamed of your words and deeds", and yet it can apply to Quiet all the same. You can't force me to accept whether something is shoddy justification or not and I can't do the same for you. And sometimes, that includes the creator of the work as well.

I think a good example for the latter is Yoko Taro. He is on record saying 2B's design is purely because he likes hot girls. And yet that completely undermines how ridiculously well (yet subtle) sexuality is woven into the plot of Nier: Automata which the designs can be included in. Or at least that's my and many other's interpretation. Now it's totally possible Yoko Taro was lying there seeing as the guy's a massive troll, so who knows. Either way, my point is creator intent shouldn't be an authority on what we take away from media. Another recent example for me is the meaning of the ending for Danganronpa V3, but that has nothing to do with sexualization.

Crossing Eden · Nov 7, 2017

shintoki said:
Good female design doesn't necessarily mean more clothed at times. Though, it doesn't hurt. Kaine from Nier is a great example of a good character, but shitacular design.

While Triss, even though her initial design was shit in Witcher, her character was solid. Glad they fixed the design in II and III.

The reason why non sexualized designs tend to be better designed are due to the fact that a lot more tends to go into them. It's amazing how much creative freedom you have when a cleavage window or a shapely butt isn't a priority for every woman in the game.

Furnace Inferno said:
The fact they are just reskins of a male model rather than their own design is what I find to be an insult. A toggle switch between male and female really shows the devs don't care.

Within the context of many games, a swap of skin makes more sense thematically than one where the gameplay is suddenly different due to gender. Evie and Jacob are both assassins, Drake and Chloe are both thieves, women and men in COD are always trained soldiers, etc. etc. etc., the equal footing and context is what makes the design decision justified.

Kin5290 · Nov 7, 2017

Trup1aya said:
I always find Overly sexualized women in games always confusing rather than titilating.

We are about to go fight off a swarm of hellspawn determined to destroy humanity... so why are you half naked instead of wearing armor like everyone else?

Who actually buys games BECAUSE of the female eye candy? Is there a pocket of gamers who would overlook stellar gameplay if the female lead was dressed practically?

There's also a fair amount of "practical clothing", from a video game logic sense, that is also sexually flattering. A character design doesn't have to consist of a string bikini and spike heels to be sexy.

Nu Lara Croft is a good example of a character that is obviously is designed to be sexy without tipping over the line into being objectifying, IMO.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 7, 2017

Sexualized video game characters are okay for the same reason Teyana Taylor's hypercharged choreography in "Fade" is okay and Magic Mike is okay. They're entertainment mediums. People didn't stop watching music videos after "Fade" came out nor accuse Teyana Taylor of helping to sexualize music.

The reason for this comes from the baggage that because game industry being primarily a boys club, such content can't appeal to women. The truth is that such sexualization appeals to tens of thousands of women and that's perfectly okay. Sexuality, no matter how gaudy, trashy, or poorly done is okay and appeals to more than men. Unless you're arguing that women are incapable of enjoying joyous showcases of sexuality, which I just don't believe to be true.

It's like saying women can't enjoy sex comedies like American Pie.

gcwy · Nov 7, 2017

Gabe said:
I know you "don't have to", but providing a different scenario to what i used as an example doesn't really answer the question.
I just wonder if that would open a new can of worms.
Aswell as making a female character, let' say, super ugly and dumb as a brick and have that be her main trait (like the new guy in sfv whose name i forgot).

It absolutely would. Unless I'm missing the point, I think there's a reason why we mostly see attractive people in all forms of media, because they are guaranteed to sell, majority of consumers like seeing these actors or attractive video game characters. Going with something that's conventionally different would be a difficult sell.

DerpHause · Nov 7, 2017

Audioboxer said:
Not to pick on you directly, but for my own interests as I've been rabbiting on about psychology and biology, and as one individual who as outright admitted to enjoying sexualised content (I bolded it in your post what you said), is it because it is visually stimulating? Like, would you prefer a love story roleplay (like some games attempt), or is it just a visually accented or highly stimulating design getting the internal wink wink in your head? I'm not criticising you, by the way, I'm just asking. Quite honestly most of the visual stimulation experiments and research around men understandably focus on porn, advertisements, male magazines and real-life depictions of women. I think it would be quite interesting if we could see more research done into fantasy, pixels, and video games. Fantasy is often tackled in research, but a lot of that has been around romance novels and women. Porn while obviously often acting/drama, still involves real people/real nudity, where as books are purely imagination. I think sex dolls and AI are currently taking the limelight for research right now though.

To be more specific if you'd elaborate is it the fact skin is often on display, such as boobs, sometimes only with a tiny nipple covering and outfits that are skin tight? Or do other aspects of the character like VA come into play, hair colour, hair style, and so on? A combination of all, from nudity to finer details like hairstyle and accent? For an example, I'm currently playing Mass Effect Andromeda and while Suvi's accent seems "normal" to me, as I'm British, I've seen quite a few online exoticize her accent because to say, Americans, or some Europeans, a Scottish accent might stand out and add to the fantasy. It's something different/unique to some as due to geographical location some things like accent stand out. I mean her character model by typical average beauty standards is still quite "ideal" for many men. Although the irony in Andromeda for anyone who has played it is Suvi bats for the other team lol. No luck thirsty male gamers.

If you don't want to answer anyone else is free to answer. Hey, maybe if I spend more time doing actual research and work into child psychology around sex education, I'll do more myself on how video games play a part and it's not all just about porn, lads mags and nude pictures of women on the internet.

For me it's more of a background kind of thing. You notice it overtly at first but over the course of gameplay it's not something you're overly noticing continually, that said when something does highlight it the tingle of satisfaction tends to emerge. As far as the elements, it's basically a whole package, but with some conditions. Simply showing as much shin as possible not so much, but rather than the outfit stands out as unique in some way. As such there isn't necessarily one visual aspect to point out. Also helps if the character is generally likable or act as if they belong in the world according to my own definition of the words, which really applies to all characters for me.

Crossing Eden · Nov 7, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Sexualized video game characters are okay for the same reason Teyana Taylor's hypercharged choreography in "Fade" is okay and Magic Mike is okay. They're entertainment mediums. People didn't stop watching music videos after "Fade" came out nor accuse Teyana Taylor of helping to sexualize music.

The reason for this primary this baggage that because the game industry is primarily a boys club such stuff can't appeal to women. The truth is that such sexualization appeals to tens of thousands of women and that's perfectly okay. Sexuality, no matter how gaudy, trashy, or poorly done is okay.

If you don't like it, change the channel, click another Youtube video, or trade your game in and pick something else up.

"Don't like it don't buy it" is such a lazy response to critique. Ask for more out of the medium. Objectification is "okay' in the sense that excessive violence is technically "ok." Theoretically a person could just not play violent games, and if enough people don't there's no reason not to make games that don't appeal to those who don't right? You see how that sort of logic is self defeating and incredibly limiting for not only the treatment and perception of the audience but the medium itself? Games can be so much more than a boys club where objectification is "ok." Just like how the music industry is so much more than sexualized music videos.

Ace-0 · Nov 7, 2017

There's this thing with female character designs that I personally don't like. And I think this thread is a good place to mention it. I personally hate it but it's not like I criticise or hate the actual game because of it. So take it as a personal preference.
So the thing is I hate it when they put a female version of a hero or a female mc and then there's like this rule on her to have "less cloth" or a skirt by default. Other than the "cute" look sometimes that doesn't fit the game at all and I noticed that mostly happens in JRPG games. And there's this thing that guys must be cool while girls should be cute.
here are some examples:

Corrin from FEfates:

What's the point of changing her armor.

Pokemon series:

Again, it's not like I despise the designs because some of them are actually pretty cool (specially the b&w ones) but it bothers me that there's like an unspoken rule in this series and some other games that females should always wear shorts or skirts and look cute.

Some other games:

Lime · Nov 7, 2017

cosmicblizzard said:
I don't see what's wrong with what I said. Media is transformative once it's consumed. It's why death of the author is a valid form of analysis. It goes much further than "Ashamed of your words and deeds", and yet it can apply to Quiet all the same. You can't force me to accept whether something is shoddy justification or not and I can't do the same for you. And sometimes, that includes the creator of the work as well.

I think a good example for the latter is Yoko Taro. He is on record saying 2B's design is purely because he likes hot girls. And yet that completely undermines how ridiculously well (yet subtle) sexuality is woven into the plot of Nier: Automata which the designs can be included in. Or at least that's my and many other's interpretation. Now it's totally possible Yoko Taro was lying there seeing as the guy's a massive troll, so who knows. Either way, my point is creator intent shouldn't be an authority on what we take away from media. Another recent example for me is the meaning of the ending for Danganronpa V3, but that has nothing to do with sexualization.

Death of the author does not absolve "the meaning of a text" from being entirely up to one person's opinion. There are still a constraint of what is possible to interpret from "the text", e.g. if you follow scholars like Stuart Hall and Umberto Eco, among many others who have clearly laid out why textual/media analysis is not simply epistemological relativism where one interpretation is as good as another. I.e. of course it is not possible to simply think that a sexually objectified character like Quiet is supposed to be some sort of transformative allegory because you think media analysis is some relativistic endeavor where interpretation A is as good as B. Just like I wouldn't be justified in a silly claim like Super Mario Bros 2 is about the Rio de Janeiro Stock Exchange Crash in 1989.

If you were a student and came up to a teacher and told her that "You can't force me to accept whether something is shoddy justification or not and I can't do the same for you" after handing in an analytic paper on a given novel, film, or game without giving reasons for this, you would get laughed out of the room and retake the course.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 7, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
"Don't like it don't buy it" is such a lazy response to critique. Ask for more out of the medium. Objectification is "okay' in the sense that excessive violence is technically "ok." Theoretically a person could just not play violent games, and if enough people don't there's no reason not to make games that don't appeal to those who don't right? You see how that sort of logic is self defeating and incredibly limiting for not only the treatment and perception of the audience but the medium itself? Games can be so much more than a boys club where objectification is "ok."

But "don't like it, don't buy it" wasn't my only response to the critique. You're limiting your criticisms specifically to video games because the second you start incorporating other media into the equation which also showcase sexualization your argument falls apart. Sexualization doesn't exist in a void in the video game industry. Nor is the video game industry strictly beholden to sexualization. There are more games without sexualization than there are with. The top-selling games of 2017 have nearly no sexualization. Which of these games is actually guilty of what you're talking about?

Top 10 Selling Games of 2017

Ghost Recon: Wildlands
Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
Grand Theft Auto V
For Honor
Horizon: Zero Dawn
Injustice 2
Mass Effect: Andromeda
Madden NFL 18
NBA 2K17
Resident Evil 7

Source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/top-10-best-selling-games-in-the-us-during-august-/1100-6453357/

But that's not my point.

My question isn't why does Teyana Taylor get to sexually dance for minutes on end without criticism while Bayonetta gets bashed to hell. I already know the reason why society doesn't give Teyana Taylor shit is that there is one certain truth that individuals like yourself in the video game community have troubling come to grips with: sexuality in media is okay and it doesn't chase people away. "Work" by Fifth Harmony is NOTHING BUT SEXUALIZATION. Ass-shots. Gyrations. 1.7 BILLION views. And those 1.7 billion views weren't from only from men I can guarantee you.

Sexuality in video games is not representative of a boys club, no more than sexuality in music or movies is representative of a boys club. Women can enjoy sexuality the same as men, whether that's in movies, music, or video games. The criticism that reducing sexualization in video games will somehow make video games more welcoming is akin to saying women are scared off by all sexualization which I already know for a fact is bullshit because it never happens with any other media.

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 7, 2017

Ace-0 said:
There's this thing with female character designs that I personally don't like. And I think this thread is a good place to mention it. I personally hate it but it's not like I criticise or hate the actual game because of it. So take it as a personal preference.
So the thing is I hate it when they put a female version of a hero or a female mc and then there's like this rule on her to have "less cloth" or a skirt by default. Other than the "cute" look sometimes that doesn't fit the game at all and I noticed that mostly happens in JRPG games. And there's this thing that guys must be cool while girls should be cute.
here are some examples:

Yeah, that is something that bothers me, specially in a game I love, Monster Hunter. In MH women Gunner armor usually haves skirts or show way more skin than men armor. Blade Master armor is usually better represented, but still you can find some of those examples.

Jotakori · Nov 7, 2017

Ace-0 said:
There's this thing with female character designs that I personally don't like. And I think this thread is a good place to mention it. I personally hate it but it's not like I criticise or hate the actual game because of it. So take it as a personal preference.
So the thing is I hate it when they put a female version of a hero or a female mc and then there's like this rule on her to have "less cloth" or a skirt by default. Other than the "cute" look sometimes that doesn't fit the game at all and I noticed that mostly happens in JRPG games. And there's this thing that guys must be cool while girls should be cute.
here are some examples:

Corrin from FEfates:

What's the point of changing her armor.

Pokemon series:

Again, it's not like I despise the designs because some of them are actually pretty cool (specially the b&w ones) but it bothers me that there's like an unspoken rule in this series and some other games that females should always wear shorts or skirts and look cute.

Some other games:

This. This right here, this drives me up the wall. And once you notice it, you just can't stop noticing it in absolutely everything.
It makes me really uncomfortable that the standard for female designs is they always have to show skin, whereas the equal male counterpart never does.

Weltall Zero · Nov 7, 2017

Furnace Inferno said:
The fact they are just reskins of a male model rather than their own design is what I find to be an insult. A toggle switch between male and female really shows the devs don't care.

It's not everyday that you find a post that neatly mixes "but only if there's a reason / the writing is good" fallacy with the good old "lazy devs".

Actually, wait, it pretty much is everyday. Never mind.

Hell, might as well post the ol' bingo card.

I just realized Furnace Inferno also used "historical accuracy" in another post, so if I'm not mistaken we got 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 16 down so far in this thread.

Deleted member 888 · Nov 7, 2017

DerpHause said:
For me it's more of a background kind of thing. You notice it overtly at first but over the course of gameplay it's not something you're overly noticing continually, that said when something does highlight it the tingle of satisfaction tends to emerge. As far as the elements, it's basically a whole package, but with some conditions. Simply showing as much shin as possible not so much, but rather than the outfit stands out as unique in some way. As such there isn't necessarily one visual aspect to point out. Also helps if the character is generally likable or act as if they belong in the world according to my own definition of the words, which really applies to all characters for me.

So in some ways a likable character is equally important? Obviously, some would say male gamers as a collective literally just see breasts and ignore the rest. It would be interesting to poll just how much the character being liked, and why that is important plays a role in attraction/visual stimulation (such as relating to being integral to the story or a friendly personality or funny/impressionable, etc).

You do occasionally see some that say they didn't just see Quiet as tits and ass, but they genuinely enjoyed her being overpowered, what little story she has and her holding her own. I guess this is somewhat the male projection of the female fantasy where you as a man are overpowered by a woman you find attractive who could kick your ass/dominate you. Such as the way the stories go in romance novels around the world in all different languages and across cultures. Dominance/being overpowered roleplays. Heck, there's a reason milf porn is soo popular among men, and it's not just guys with mummy issues. It's that perception an older woman is more experienced, more disciplined and is more demanding/in control. I've not really thought about this transferring over into games, but I guess why wouldn't it?

My personal satisfaction from female characters comes from those like Ellie or Alloy who kick ass and hold their own. Some sass is appreciated as well, although I've always enjoyed NDs handling of humour and sass. Even from male characters. So I understand why people are attracted to confidence/empowerment/domination.

I can however see how an empowered ass kicking female who is also sexual/objectively attractive for many might place quite highly on the fantasy totem pole. 2B and Bayonetta seem to fit this trope as well. I actually bet many male gamers get turned off by the sexy damsel in distress after witnessing some characters who are overtly sexual but also kick ass. I would also guess this is why cosplay often favours sexy characters who also kick ass. Empowerment (from the character being a strong female/ass kicker) + sexuality = confidence + feel good factor.

I mean Cindy in FF15 is pretty damn ditzy/boring compared to Bayonetta or 2B. Or even Quiet. Even although her design fits right in with the ideal fantasy play for many men. Tall, skinny, breasts on display and blonde hair.

Deleted member 2595 · Nov 7, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Sexualized video game characters are okay for the same reason Teyana Taylor's hypercharged choreography in "Fade" is okay and Magic Mike is okay. They're entertainment mediums. People didn't stop watching music videos after "Fade" came out nor accuse Teyana Taylor of helping to sexualize music.

The difference (albeit minor) here is that at the very end of Fade we see the hypersexualised Teyana with a hypersexualised nude man.

If this were a videogame parallel the man would be completely normally clothed. Indeed, if it were Bayonetta he'd have a lot of ridiculous clothes on. Let's be honest: there probably wouldn't be a man in the scene at all.

I know it's only at the very end, but plenty of music videos show hypersexualised blokes while... barely any videogames do.

Imo the solution isn't to erase sexualisation entirely (like you're implying) but to deploy it even-handedly and in the appropriate contexts. Videogames completely fail at both those things while other media, even if it's still far from ideal, do a better job. I can't imagine getting something like Magic Mike in gaming.

CannonFodder52 · Nov 7, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
But that's not my point.

My question isn't why does Teyana Taylor get to sexually dance for minutes on end without criticism while Bayonetta gets bashed to hell. I already know the reason why society doesn't give Teyana Taylor shit is that there is one certain truth that individuals like yourself in the video game community have troubling come to grips with: sexuality in media is okay and it doesn't chase people away. "Work" by Fifth Harmony is NOTHING BUT SEXUALIZATION. Ass-shots. Gyrations. 1.7 BILLION views. And those 1.7 billion views weren't from only from men I can guarantee you.

Sexuality in video games is not representative of a boys club, no more than sexuality in music or movies is representative of a boys club. Women can enjoy sexuality the same as men, whether that's in movies, music, or video games. The criticism that reducing sexualization in video games will somehow make video games more welcoming is akin to saying women are scared off by all sexualization which I already know for a fact is bullshit because it never happens with any other media.

-I'm going to retract this particular statement, as it may have been worded poorly considering the context.

Trup1aya · Nov 7, 2017

Kin5290 said:
There's also a fair amount of "practical clothing", from a video game logic sense, that is also sexually flattering. A character design doesn't have to consist of a string bikini and spike heels to be sexy.

Nu Lara Croft is a good example of a character that is obviously is designed to be sexy without tipping over the line into being objectifying, IMO.

I agree. In general, being stylish is sexually flattering without dipping into objectification.

I'm sure we all see people daily, who we consider sexy despite not having their butt cheeks hanging out.

Alastor3 · Nov 7, 2017

Persephone said:
I'm pretty sure it's fairly well known that Kojima is a huge horndog.

Do you think there will be some in his next game?

Dmax3901 · Nov 7, 2017

Not sure if it's because of the more specific topic of this thread, but I just wanna say it's really encouraging to see way more posters confidently identifying themselves as women in here and on this site in general. Definitely more than I remember seeing on The Forum That Must Not Be Named.

atomsk eater · Nov 7, 2017

Jotakori said:
This. This right here, this drives me up the wall. And once you notice it, you just can't stop noticing it in absolutely everything.
It makes me really uncomfortable that the standard for female designs is they always have to show skin, whereas the equal male counterpart never does.

This + "men of a non-human race can look like literally anything, but make sure the female counterpart still looks more or less like a hot human woman." Now that I've noticed it I can't stop noticing it, and it annoys me each time. Lizard people with big ol' titties. Please stop.

Ace-0 · Nov 7, 2017

Jotakori said:
And once you notice it, you just can't stop noticing it in absolutely everything.

That's my hell

Deleted member 2595 · Nov 7, 2017

Ace-0 said:
There's this thing with female character designs that I personally don't like. And I think this thread is a good place to mention it. I personally hate it but it's not like I criticise or hate the actual game because of it. So take it as a personal preference.
So the thing is I hate it when they put a female version of a hero or a female mc and then there's like this rule on her to have "less cloth" or a skirt by default. Other than the "cute" look sometimes that doesn't fit the game at all and I noticed that mostly happens in JRPG games. And there's this thing that guys must be cool while girls should be cute.
here are some examples:

Corrin from FEfates:

What's the point of changing her armor.

Pokemon series:

Again, it's not like I despise the designs because some of them are actually pretty cool (specially the b&w ones) but it bothers me that there's like an unspoken rule in this series and some other games that females should always wear shorts or skirts and look cute.

Some other games:

This seems like an even more pointedly Japanese phenomenon than usual.

Are 'traditional' school uniforms obligatory across Japan?

SledGod · Nov 7, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
But that's not my point.

My question isn't why does Teyana Taylor get to sexually dance for minutes on end without criticism while Bayonetta gets bashed to hell. I already know the reason why society doesn't give Teyana Taylor shit is that there is one certain truth that individuals like yourself in the video game community have troubling come to grips with: sexuality in media is okay and it doesn't chase people away. "Work" by Fifth Harmony is NOTHING BUT SEXUALIZATION. Ass-shots. Gyrations. 1.7 BILLION views. And those 1.7 billion views weren't from only from men I can guarantee you.

Sexuality in video games is not representative of a boys club, no more than sexuality in music or movies is representative of a boys club. Women can enjoy sexuality the same as men, whether that's in movies, music, or video games. The criticism that reducing sexualization in video games will somehow make video games more welcoming is akin to saying women are scared off by all sexualization which I already know for a fact is bullshit because it never happens with any other media.

Teyana Taylor is an autonomous individual who, arguably, has a choice in what she does. I think your argument is fundamentally flawed, since it assumes that no one takes issue with the objectification of women in pop music.

CannonFodder52 · Nov 7, 2017

someday said:
I'm a lesbian that loves video games. I only give my sexuality so that y'all can understand that I absolutely love women and their bodies.

That said, I agree with the women here saying that this sexualized design of so many female characters makes me wildly uncomfortable and will guarantee that I skip playing and paying money for a game that relies on it. The idea that because straight men like women and therefore it's only natural that they reduce female characters to sex objects is utterly ridiculous. You can like women and still treat their representations with respect.

It's interesting to hear this perspective, especially since I often see guys trying to make a different argument on behalf of lesbian women.

Thanks for sharing.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 7, 2017

CannonFodder52 said:
Your argument may cross over into, this is a systematic problem across all media.

Let it cross over into the "this is a systematic problem across all media" territory then.

Teyana Taylor did her own choreography. Do you really want to start shaming women for how they depict themselves in media? Or should we start shaming cosplayers who take character designs that showcase designs that were created with objectification in mind at public conferences?

http://www.deviantart.com/art/BAYONETTA-265666273

SolidSnakex · Nov 7, 2017

Alastor3 said:
Do you think there will be some in his next game?

I'm sure the general response will be yes, but you never know. He does have a good understanding of market and how media can be appealing to different genders. His Wonder Woman review paints this picture really clearly

However, upon the initial announcement of her role as Wonder Woman, there were some who criticized it as a mismatch for the character's traditionally glamorous image. Perhaps this dissent was a result of the primarily male image of Wonder Woman as a sex symbol. Though, had the casting been guided by this same principle, there is no doubt the movie would never have been so wildly successful. Super heroines have appeared in countless super hero movies, but almost always in support of the male fantasy. If that had been the case here, female viewers certainly wouldn't have taken to her like they have.

The brains behind this movie were well aware of this fact, which is precisely why they chose Gal Gadot and director Patty Jenkins. As a result, the film appeals to both men and women. A wise decision, given the climate of today's film industry, and one that the film's success only serves to highlight.

Like-minded thinking can be seen in the recent Star Wars movies, The Force Awakens and Rogue One, which both feature female leads. Airing from September of this year, the star of the new Star Trek: Discovery series is also a female first officer. These days it's not unusual to see women in leading roles. Hollywood has turned a corner: previously the just savior role was played by, or exclusively reserved for men, but is now played by women as well, and audiences love it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/reviews/hideo-kojima-reviews-wonder-woman-w492779

So we may very well see a different Kojima with DS now that he's broken away from Metal Gear and Konami and has a chance to make a clean start.

Sturm · Nov 7, 2017

Devenir Ácrata said:
It is not natural, it is socially constructed. A better word would be normal, since that is the way it is expected for mens to act. If we lived in another reality where womens would not be seen / treated as an object for men pleasure then sexualization might not be a problem, but we do not live in that reality and games and other media reinforcing that image of womens is problematic. Specially in games where womens are sexualized just because the author wants it and it does not bring anything to the game.

Maybe it's the reality for you, because you see it from your point of view, and it's a problem for you, but not for me. You can not generalize. I'm sorry but I do not share your opinion .I worry that every time a female character with little clothes comes out due to her design, some of them take their hands to the head shocked, but it is not my case, nor that of thousands of people who do not see any problem in it.

CannonFodder52 · Nov 7, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Let it cross over into the "this is a systematic problem across all media" territory then.

Teyana Taylor did her own choreography. Do you really want to start shaming women for how they depict themselves in media? Or should we start shaming cosplayers who take character designs that showcase designs that were created with objectification in mind at public conferences?

I don't know anything about this particular artist, nor would I shame them for anything.

But it seems to be a poor argument to say that sexualisation is fine in games and then cite similar content in movies or music videos as evidence.

Either way, the other poster made a better response than I did.

SledGod said:
Teyana Taylor is an autonomous individual who, arguably, has a choice in what she does. I think your argument is fundamentally flawed, since it assumes that no one takes issue with the objectification of women in pop music.

Kickmaster Kim · Nov 7, 2017

Tell it girl! It's a damn shame you have to explain that shit.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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