That's why I said it's mostly shown in JRPG games. I didn't play much WRPG games but Mass Effect have the same cloth for both genders.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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The problem isn't women who choose to depict themselves in a sexual way, it's the fact that they're often not given many other choices.
Ah sorry, I was focused on trying to discern your core point - didn't read your whole text closely enough. Yup, pretty grim that it's such a strongly JRPG thing.
A lot of non-J games definitely do it too but the whole high school thing is way too distinct and distinctly Japanese.
Absolutely this, too. And the thing is, these things wouldn't bother me as much as they do if it wasn't such a damn one way road. You want to have a monster race where the females still look kinda hot? Sure, whatever, but pls make the dudes look hot, too, it's only fair.
What's even worse is when you realize it extends to irl, too. Ever stop to look at a halloween costume poster that has outfits for both guys and girls? As far as skin goes you'll be lucky if you can see a guy's face in his costume. Girls it's like how much skin CAN I show and not get arrested for public indecency?
It's just makes me so tired to see it like every day in every aspect of life.
So your argument is that sexualization is okay as long as it's made by women aka. Teyana Taylor, which means that as long as sexual imagery in the video game industry depicting was made by women, you'd be okay with it? I don't think that's the argument you want to male.
And second, no. My argument doesn't assume that no one takes issue with the objectification of women in pop music. My argument is that with 1.7 billion views plenty of women are okay with sexuality in pop music and have been for decades. Individuals slut-shaming women for how they choose to dress, whether in pop music or otherwise, are usually considered pretty fringe and hateful in general.
Five out of those ten games feature sexualized women.
The problem with this argument is that yes music videos DO get criticism for sexualization, just like video games, whataboutism about other mediums ignores the issue and context of this medium specifically.
In the context of the game medium yes it is. There's no mainstream game equivalent to 50 shades of grey or twilight. Meanwhile some of Japan's biggest games feature characters like Quiet and Cindy in the mainstream.
And at the same time, a lot of women are completely turned off by the pointless sexualization in the medium. It's almost like they aren't a monolith or something. And you think it's a coincidence that at the time where more and more women are playing games is also the time where games like Horizon Zero Dawn is incredibly successful and a game like TLOU2, aka one of the most anticipated games of this gen, has almost solely been advertised with women at the forefront?
It should be everyone problems because it haves material repercussions in this reality that could end in the death of women or sexual abuse. One thing is the sexualization done by men to reduce women to mere flesh for men to consume and another is someone deciding that they want to dress sexy or however they want.
You're being reductive and purposefully misrepresenting my argument while not addressing my actual point. And the fact that you think slut shaming and criticizing women's appearances is fringe shows that you're pretty out of touch.
Your arguments don't support each other. The idea of sexualization being problematic due to society doesn't really support the idea that indulging in ones natural preferences is not natural. And ultimately, yes, as expressions created by people games will ultimately reflect the desires of their creators. That's in large part the reason why many aspects of games exist. But we do consider sexuality different for it's societal context for good or bad.
¿What? O_____o Seriously do you think Horizon's sales are because there are more women playing video games and this has had an impact on the sales of this?
Really well put, I completely agree. So many replies in this thread highlight the mindset that has to be overcome here; dudes feeling threatened by feminism.
Exactly. Thank you. That's my point. Women aren't a monolith.
But just like women can like Horizon Zero Dawn and TLOU2, they can enjoy each of those 5 games you said were sexualized.
I very much doubt it would've been as successful if Aloy was designed like Bayonetta or that girl from X-blade. The game has a huge following of women and Aloy being the posterchild of the game is definitely part of the reason for that. I have no idea how you could argue otherwise as if these things are mere coincidences.
Hell Dragon Age is an example of this, everyone in DA is the pinnacle of whatever archetype they fulfill as romance is a huge part of it.
But media also has an effect on the audience. If media is constantly catering to one gender it's gonna have an effect not just in how the audience itself views that gender but also when it comes to the workplace. There's not really any data for the amount of women who prefer sexualized character designs in gaming that don't boil down to anecdotes but there sure are a metric fuckton of articles talking about how games like Horizon and TLOU are positive representation that the medium needs more of.
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So many posts in this topic. I wonder.. how many were made by guys speaking for all women? I try to play a variety of games, but when I play something where female characters are probably excessively sexualized, my girlfriend seems to just laugh it off as being silly.
I think it crosses a creepy line when the game takes itself too seriously, like a Hideo Kojima game or Nier Automata. Maybe I'm just using those examples since those fanbases are pretty vocal in the defense of the game's creators.
I think it crosses a creepy line when the game takes itself too seriously, like a Hideo Kojima game or Nier Automata. Maybe I'm just using those examples since those fanbases are pretty vocal in the defense of the game's creators.
Just want to point out that I'm 100% in agreement here, provided the outfit is actually functional and not, y'know, a bikini top and thong or some such crap. Sports bra and spandex shorts? I ain't complainin' if she's packin' some real heat. But that's the thing - it's extremely rare to find that sort of body type represented in video games, making it extremely transparent what the developers' aims were. Even in games with character creation, it just doesn't happen very often.
I find it very unfortunate that a lot of guys in this very thread don't seem to understand the distinction between a woman who is skimpily dressed for male consumption and a woman who just happens to be skimpily dressed for other reasons (like running a marathon).
Okay, but so what? We have a bunch of women in this very thread complaining about these games and you're just going to what, completely ignore us as though we don't exist? Do our voices not matter?
I'm hallucinating. You are telling me that the elves who leave with little clothes in D&D are one of the serious problems that exist on the subject so serious that you comment. I can not believe what I just read. If you really believe that, I think that you are really very disconnected from reality.
Not sure if the concensus on male gamers is oversimplified or draws too much from more polarized corners of the internet, but there isn't too much conversation here about why those who like it do so. As such I'd say i really have no idea if my position is typical or not. would be interesting to dig into.
When you have real data on the proportion of women and men who have bought Horizon you come and tell me again. Until then your opinion is just that, your opinion, not something real.
There's nothing wrong with naked lady elves. But there is something wrong with a culture where many women constantly feel they're either being objectified or undermined. That's a big issue in the D&D scene.
Very few? I don't know why that would be your first thought entering this thread.
I do find it a bit interesting that sexual content gets a focus here as nearly an exclusive incitement to violence or force without even the consideration of similar situations in the content itself in some cases. Is it something specific here that makes it so uniquely effective?
I do not feel threatened by feminism. I feel threatened by the censorship that comes after in videogames, destroying the freedom of expression and the art of its creators.
As I said media has an effect on the audience. It's not at all a coincidence that Anita Sarkeesian got harassed and straight up threatened by thousands of people,(an overwhelming majority of whom were men), over basic feminism 101 critiques of the representation of women in this medium. It's not at all a coincidence that devs like Neil Druckmann receives tweets like this or that his push for diversity in the medium, (and yes, including women who aren't sexualized is part of that), has received an overwhelming amount of positive reception: These things don't happen in a vaccuum.
I guess I just imagined the major shift in the representation of women in the medium as a whole in the mainstream market thanks in part to the success of indie games and the changing demographics where more and more women are playing games and thus, from a marketing standpoint it's ok to have characters like Ellie or Emily leading the sequel to an IP made from a time where brunette white males were borderline mandated by pubs.
Eh, my best guess would be relatively typical. The best hypothesis I can make on short notice is due to games often taking 8-40+ hours to complete, many men will enjoy the characters that are sexualised also being enjoyable to be around/play as for that length of time. Tie that into some of what I said in that quote about the attraction some have to being overpowered/dominated.
Porn tends to exist for the 5-10 minute don't give a shit visual sensory overload. I guess more in depth surveys could be attempted to be carried out to ask male gamers in female characters they find sexy what is important? Ranging from just the looks (or looks are 100% priority), to the characters strengths/determination and likeability across things such as personality/humour/attitude and so on mattering as well. I'm actually a bit surprised more effort hasn't been put into doing this, considering it's such a hot topic to always ask why games are full of female sexualisation and why male gamers enjoy that.
I mean, I'm sure there are examples of sexualised characters out there that people absolutely hate, regardless of looks. Like from the modern Star Ocean games lol. I don't actually think Cindy is all that liked a character either, even in male gamer circles.
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I always see this confusion: "Where did this phenomenon come from?!"
Look at who creates these games + who these games main audience are. You will get your answer.
You see those DLC addon-packs for various outfits that seem to have less and less clothes on the characters? I guarantee you people buy the fuck out of those.
Highest downloaded mods for games like Skyrim? "Complete Nude Mod", "Perfectly Shaped Bosoms", etc.
There's a demand so there is a supply, unfortunately.
Look at who creates these games + who these games main audience are. You will get your answer.
You see those DLC addon-packs for various outfits that seem to have less and less clothes on the characters? I guarantee you people buy the fuck out of those.
Highest downloaded mods for games like Skyrim? "Complete Nude Mod", "Perfectly Shaped Bosoms", etc.
There's a demand so there is a supply, unfortunately.
Because that's usually how these types of discussions go when regarding video games.
I repeat, when you have real data we talk again. You see coincidences where I do not see them. It's called opinions, not reality.
You undermined your first sentence with the next one. You really think feminism is about destroying freedom of expression? It's not about quelling voices, it's about hearing more of them.
EDIT: I'm a dummy and confused Sturm with another poster who made this argument.
Your argument that men should not speak about issues that effect women because we are "speaking for women" is just a diversion and not any kind of argument. In fact, it has a pretty sexist undertone, assuming that we would speak for women instead of having opinions influenced by the women in our lives.
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I think people get threatened and defensive because people frame it as a problem that needs to be changed, when it's not really. It's just something they don't like about video games.
Yea man that major shift is just a coincidence. Do you also think Anita Sarkeesian also had no affect on the industry?
GG and the way Anita Sarkeesian was treated for again, literally just showing the state of things and offering very base critiques of how things could be better showed that it was a major problem that DID need to be changed. And look where we are, it has. Shouldn't feel threatened by the notion that women could and can be represented better in the same way that minorities can be.
It's kind of weird when you think about it. The sort of people giving those responses in the OP want to see boobs, but "out of context". For example, away from the beach example you gave.
They probably don't want to play DoA Xtreme, because that would be too blatant. They want to see scantily clad females juxtaposed with the context of an open world soldier sim, or a sprawling fantasy RPG.
And the problem is, it's pretty easy to understand why. I don't think MGSV is better for Quiet's design, and I don't think FFXV is better for Cindy's. But the fact is that they provide a sweet little spike of arousal in an otherwise all-male, all-business environment. Why exactly that's appealing, I don't know. I'm not a psychologist, but it feels like it's tapping into some weird part of our subconscious where we like to hide or obscure our fantasies.
If you enjoy that aspect, then I don't think that necessarily make you a bad person. But you're kidding yourself if you think people are buying the justification for them looking the way they do. Just be honest and accept these designs for what they are.
Also, for the record, I think even these games with dumb designs have the right to co-exist with other games where sexualisation makes sense, and others where sexualisation isn't present at all.
However, it should be universally understood they are completely subject to criticism, and should not be held as the standard for female representation throughout the hobby. That perception is something we do need to try and change.
They probably don't want to play DoA Xtreme, because that would be too blatant. They want to see scantily clad females juxtaposed with the context of an open world soldier sim, or a sprawling fantasy RPG.
And the problem is, it's pretty easy to understand why. I don't think MGSV is better for Quiet's design, and I don't think FFXV is better for Cindy's. But the fact is that they provide a sweet little spike of arousal in an otherwise all-male, all-business environment. Why exactly that's appealing, I don't know. I'm not a psychologist, but it feels like it's tapping into some weird part of our subconscious where we like to hide or obscure our fantasies.
If you enjoy that aspect, then I don't think that necessarily make you a bad person. But you're kidding yourself if you think people are buying the justification for them looking the way they do. Just be honest and accept these designs for what they are.
Also, for the record, I think even these games with dumb designs have the right to co-exist with other games where sexualisation makes sense, and others where sexualisation isn't present at all.
However, it should be universally understood they are completely subject to criticism, and should not be held as the standard for female representation throughout the hobby. That perception is something we do need to try and change.
To be fair, when there are voices villainizing all sexualization in games and no general dismissal of those ideas then yeah, one might see feminism as synonymous with censorship.
There are a lot of voices in this conversation, it's no one's fault but yours if you choose not to hear them.
I already argued there's nothing innately wrong with sexualization in games, so could you be a little less lazy before you post?
Tell me about it
Lol, you summed it up in one sentence xD
Yeah, sometimes I wish I never noticed that in the first place.
I'd be ok with it. I mean, I'm generally ok with it anyways, but if a woman designs a character to flaunt her sexuality, sure, why not?
Now obviously some people will still take offense or not like it, and they have every right to. But I don't see anything wrong with a female designer creating a character who flaunts her assets.
It's really sad to see how little has changed for male gamers in the last 5-7 years in general, despite the very public and concerted push against misogyny in games culture and the ensuing terrorism and backlash from gamer bigots. This constant refusal to learn and acknowledge while women are terrorized makes me understand the humorous "men are garbage" sentiments that some friends joke about. Because no wonder people think this when men constantly dominate, terrorize, and refuse to listen to the ones they oppress.
If people listened more often they'd see that people don't inherently have a problem with sex as a concept, or even sexualization, but rather the context, (and in the majority of cases, lack there of), of how both are shown in this medium.
Most of the men posting in here in support of OP are expressing their own discomfort with the objectification of women in games, their reasons could be extensive, but that reaction is all their own and doesn't have much to do with "speaking for all women".
You can be a man and care about these issues without just wanting to get sex out of it.
I do not think that in feminism is that, I think that in this issue, we talk about video games, we usually talk about censoring, which is not the first time that we get games censored unfortunately. I repeat, we are talking about video games. By the way, where I wrote that men should not talk about women's problems? O_____o
What of value is lost by treating your female characters with the same respect that should be shown to women irl?
How would you feel if Joel rocked up in TLOU2 dressed as Bayonetta? Would that break immersion for you at all? Now apply that to 80% of games. It's not a question of creative freedom in videogames, it's treating people equally irrespective of gender.
You're right, someone else made that argument, not you. My mistake.
No one is talking about censorship. This is not a thread about asking the government to step in and stop developers from sexualizing women. I have no idea why you would think that.
I think the second part of his response was supposed to be regarding this post: https://www.resetera.com/posts/668898/report
Edit: beaten
The only reason you wouldn't call it a relativistic endeavor is due to the volume of acceptance. If the masses decide something means X, you may be looked at crazy if you decide it means Y. But using that same logic, you can assign a binary view of pretty much any work which is just as constraining. If we're using Quiet as an example, the very fact she's a great discussion point kind of confirms the divisive nature of her depiction. Or are we to assign tiers to people based on their interpretation, with those that buy Kojima's words being on the lowest rung? All that does is undermine the work itself when a large portion of the consumer-base is told they're flat out wrong about their view on said product.
Also, we're not in a classroom right now. We're in a discussion thread on a video game message board. Interpretations exist outside of the world of academia as well, whether it be because it's more digestible for the layman or because it's just interesting to think about in general. Why do you think Youtube channels like Game Theory are so popular? Your Super Mario Bros 2 example wouldn't be out of place there. The purpose isn't necessarily to lock down an agreed upon meaning of a work, it's to give people something to think about via the shared pool of ideas without outright denying any particular interpretation.
Yep. Even in this thead, which has had a LOT of great resopnses and discourse, we still have the usual whataboutism and people caring more about their own intetests and the business side of the industry rather than the artistry and its impact on culture.
But the thing is, it is a problem that needs to change. Media does not exist in a vacuum, it represents the thought process of the creators and also influences the consumer. In other words it normalises this behaviour, this view of women as objects for gratification.
People defending the sexualization of women in games get threatened and defensive because they see others stating their distaste for it or the potential social problems it contributes to and see it as a personal attack. They think people are judging them personally based on this stance and thinking they're immoral or horn dogs or something when (at least in this thread) that's not happening.
What is a problem is when people shut out other voices because it doesn't agree with their lived experience. Like here, we have women stating their issues with sexualization and objectification of women in games and they're getting ignored or told it isn't a problem. And that's what you've done here. You're downplaying the issue as "just something they don't like about video games". For you it may come down to preference, but for others its about the constant barrage seen in all forms of media and the way they're treated in real life. All these conversations really require is listening to other people and trying to understand the experience from their perspective. I think the OP made a pretty good point about how they're sex positive and have no issues with certain portrayals, but responses like this aren't looking at the with any degree of granularity.
It's not about censorship, by any means. It's about offering viewpoints that hopefully cause people who makes games to think about how they're portraying women, that not all of them need to show lots of skin to be sexy, or that they all don't need to be sexy to begin with. For example I'm pretty sure there's an interview floating around where someone at ND said that discussions about female character representation in games affected how they approached the women in LoU. Not all devs are making bikini battle armor because it's what they personally like and it's some grand artistic vision, but because the pervasiveness of sexy designs makes them think "it won't sell without this" or "this is what everyone does so guess I'll go with it." And even if it is their artistic preference, art has been open to criticism since it's been a thing. People still draw, paint, and sculpt what they want.
This image was on my mind when I made the post, lol
This is not about censorship. This is about people wanting the industry to mature to even the level that the film industry's low bar sets. This is about videogame creators taking accountability for the role they play in reinforcing the objectification and marginalization of women in society. Art does not exist by itself; it is informed by and influences the society it's created in.
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