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DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Whether Quiet's character design is justified by the in-world explanation is debatable though, as evidenced by the fact that we are still debating this years later. I'm not sure what point you're making in regards to TLOU and Bayonetta.

I though I was pretty direct there, but let me try again: None of the Bayo designs visually fit in the world of TLOU, the fact that some are sexualized isn't the core of that; even the non-sexualized ones don't fit. As such the comparison seems to fall apart for the sake of this conversation.

On top of that, over the top does fit in MGS, further alienating the comparison.
 

JayBabay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
700
California
Disagree with Cidney she is a sexy pretty mechanic in a fantasy setting where the group of main protagonists are hot and attractive Otome game stereotypes looking like a boyband. There is nothing out of place about Cidney in a setting with main characters like this

Right, so the setting is Fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with the way Noctis, Prompto, and Ignis are dressed even in our world, besides the fact that they are coincidentally all in black. However, Gladiolus and Cindy don't dress like what I would expect people in this society to dress like in their particular positions (mechanic and bodyguard). Now the kicker for me is that this fictional society follows ours fairly closely, moreso than past Final Fantasy games did with the focus XV has on replicating real locations on Earth.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
I've yet to see anyone villanize all sexy things. You're projecting.

It should be everyone problems because it haves material repercussions in this reality that could end in the death of women or sexual abuse. One thing is the sexualization done by men to reduce women to mere flesh for men to consume and another is someone deciding that they want to dress sexy or however they want.

(in response to a quote using drinks to represent sexualized and non-sexualized content)
Perhaps if one of the drinks was tinted slightly with poison might the analogy work but... No, no it doesn't.

This analogy doesn't work.

On any level.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402

Interesting choice of channel:
- "Perpetuating Ape Culture since 2015" -- cute, making fun of rape culture
- "Apeshitly awesome": endorses channels from Milo, Sargon of Akkad, and Thunderf00t
- Links to a site that features tons of hateful anti-feminist sources, and even KotakuInAction
- Twitter account is... suspended, lol.
- And of course the video descriptions containing words like "cuck"

Sooo. Care to explain why you're linking to an alt-right channel?
 

Gabe

Verified
Oct 25, 2017
200
Italy
The issue with your analogy is that this isn't a subject that comes down purely to taste. For things like food and genre preferences your analogy is applicable. Heck, I'd say it'd work for Microsoft vs Sony vs Nintendo video game debates which can consist of more than just taste, but ultimately it's a low stakes argument. Somebody shits on one of the 3 and it doesn't matter because they're all huge corporations raking in cash and our arguments here don't mean much to them. Bringing that kind of analogy in here is problematic because women face inequality on a daily basis in their real lives. So coming home and looking for an escape in video games only to find that women are treated like objects can hit too close to home. This subject has plenty of room for discussion about how sexuality is employed in video games for men and women, when that crosses into objectification, and how that impacts gamers, the industry, and society.

TL:DR- The subject of sexualization and objectification of women in games needs to be treated with respect and a certain level of decorum because it can negatively affect people and has societal implications. Comparing it to forum warrior fights misses the important nuances specific to the subject at hand.

You are doing (with a very light approach, i have to admit) exactly what i said people do, i never diminished the importance of the discussion (you can look at my previous posts...they might surprise you). The analogy was about THE WAY these discussions go...and just as i had to do in many previous post, i need to clarify useless stuff because it's far too common for people to inject their thoughts in other people's posts and read what they want to read into them rather than taking the simplest approach and just read the actual words.

But i get the appeal of "proving people wrong", however misguided that might be.

EDIT: the point is that there is a HUGE problem with the manner in which these issues are both expressed AND received, so to focus on "it's not coca cola and oj, man!!!" out of my previous post, pretty much proves my point and it's also a bit depressing.

P.S. i'm out btw, arguing is the last thing i wanna do. Cheers :)
 
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Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Disagree with Cidney she is a sexy pretty mechanic in a fantasy setting where the group of main protagonists are hot and attractive Otome game stereotypes looking like a boyband. There is nothing out of place about Cidney in a setting with main characters like this
She's a mechanic. No mechanic dresses like that. No male mechanic Cids have ever dressed like that despite FFs having fantasy settings. Heck, we even HAVE a mechanic male Cid in FFXV who dresses like you could imagine a somewhat stylized mechanic dressing like. The main male characters are a bit stylized but they wear casual clothes normal people wear when out & about.

Plus it's not just how she looks & is designed, but how she is framed. She's very much objectified in the game.
 

marimo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
612
I though I was pretty direct there, but let me try again: None of the Bayo designs visually fit in the world of TLOU, the fact that some are sexualized isn't the core of that; even the non-sexualized ones don't fit. As such the comparison seems to fall apart for the sake of this conversation.

On top of that, over the top does fit in MGS, further alienating the comparison.

Over the top in the context of MGS generally refers to batshit storylines, weird villains, humor and 4th wall breaking, though. MGSV is by far the MGS game with the least significant female character representation and the most egregious sexualization. MGS fans know and love the over the top nature of MGS, but a lot of us had a problem with Quiet. So it isn't a foregone conclusion that she fits, even considering the tone of the series and the flimsy story justification.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Over the top in the context of MGS generally refers to batshit storylines, weird villains, humor and 4th wall breaking, though. MGSV is by far the MGS game with the least significant female character representation and the most egregious sexualization. MGS fans know and love the over the top nature of MGS, but a lot of us had a problem with Quiet. So it isn't a foregone conclusion that she fits, even considering the tone of the series and the flimsy story justification.

Sure, not disagreeing with that interpretation, though even that isn't universally agreed upon, just found that comparison to Bayo-Joel to miss the mark and weaken its own point for it.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402
Over the top in the context of MGS generally refers to batshit storylines, weird villains, humor and 4th wall breaking, though. MGSV is by far the MGS game with the least significant female character representation and the most egregious sexualization. MGS fans know and love the over the top nature of MGS, but a lot of us had a problem with Quiet. So it isn't a foregone conclusion that she fits, even considering the tone of the series and the flimsy story justification.
Can you imagine the reactions if the new MGS had Snake's default outfit be nothing more than a speedo (insert any "lore" justification for that you can think of) and the camera lovingly panned over his ass constantly, etc? I wonder if the "it fits the MGS craziness!" excuse would be so widespread then. People already complained about pretty-boy Raiden, can't imagine the meltdowns, hah. Well actually I can, I remember the meltdowns from the FF mobile game -- Square Enix actually changed the dude's costume because it was "too revealing".

So maybe we can stop pretending there isn't a double standard already.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Pointing out that sexist portrayals of women have real life cosnsequences/effects does not equal villanization of all things sexy.

So, again, sorry, try again.

Except those posts weren't in response to "sexist portrayals" but sexualized content. So saying they villainize sexual content sees pretty factual as opposed to moving someone else's goal post after the fact.

Edit: That or you're claiming the direct advocacy of "sexist portayals" on some other posters parts.
 
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Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,562
She's a mechanic. No mechanic dresses like that. No male mechanic Cids have ever dressed like that despite FFs having fantasy settings. Heck, we even HAVE a mechanic male Cid in FFXV who dresses like you could imagine a somewhat stylized mechanic dressing like. The main male characters are a bit stylized but they wear casual clothes normal people wear when out & about.

Plus it's not just how she looks & is designed, but how she is framed. She's very much objectified in the game.

And Gladiolus is quite literally Noctis' shield. His duty is to protect Noctis at all cost. And he runs around in leather pants and a open shirt. The designs are meant to look good nothing more nothing less.

And how is Cidney framed? A talented Mechanic who can get the group's car running again no matter what shitty condition it is in, can upgrade it to the point where it becomes an airship and has a fun personality. Yes visually they go full on sexy mechanic including camera angles but that isn't all there is to her and just because she is sexualized shouldn't mean you can just reduce her to the visual aspect of the character
 

Jubbe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,779
I'm a guy but I totally understand. Like, I'd feel uncomfortable if I played a game where all of the female characters were fully clothed and the few guy characters were all dressed in really bad outfits that only cover what they're not allowed to show.

Eh, people need to quit using false equivalency arguments like this. I'm a guy and I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with this at all because I've never felt that my entire gender has historically and continuously been reduced to nothing more than sexual objects for others throughout all forms of media.

In fact a game doing this would be an interesting way to subvert cultural norms and help to highlight how ridiculous the whole thing is.
 

marimo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
612
Eh, people need to quit using false equivalency arguments like this. I'm a guy and I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with this at all because I've never felt that my entire gender has historically and continuously been reduced to nothing more than sexual objects for others throughout all forms of media.

In fact a game doing this would be an interesting way to subvert cultural norms and help to highlight how ridiculous the whole thing is.

This is an excellent point.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,857
Japan
It's not "villainizing" vehicles to suggest that driving a car contributes to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. It just does. Being critical of highly sexualized female characters throughout games doesn't mean someone is making an argument that there's a direct connection between playing games and abuse. They contribute to an atmosphere that isn't healthy.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
I get the OP's point but just to perhaps look at the other side of the coin ... is there anything expressly wrong with games targeted at what 13-19 year old boys like? They are a large portion of the gaming community. I'm all for games that target other/broader demographics too and I think we are definitely seeing more varied representations of women in gaming and that's cool.

But I understand too that when I look at the cover of a romance novel that a lot of those are for a certain female demographic, hence the depiction of men on the cover is usually with long flowing hair, tall, shirtless, muscular, etc. It's a fantasy.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Except those posts weren't in response to "sexist portrayals" but sexualized content. So saying they villainize sexual content sees pretty factual as opposed to moving someone else's goal post after the fact.
The way games sexualize characters is sexist most of the time. That's why it's such a big issue that progressively minded people want to change, finally. And nowhere in that post does he/she say ALL sexualization. This thread is about the kind that people find issue with, not all sexy things. People don't have to specify not-so-problematic kind in their posts.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
And how is Cidney framed? A talented Mechanic who can get the group's car running again no matter what shitty condition it is in, can upgrade it to the point where it becomes an airship and has a fun personality. Yes visually they go full on sexy mechanic including camera angles but that isn't all there is to her and just because she is sexualized shouldn't mean you can just reduce her to the visual aspect of the character

The game itself seems very uninterested in Cidney when we aren't leering at her uncomfortably... The car wash scene is particularly egregious. Her "fun personality" is rarely put to use; we cannot say the same for her cleavage.
 

Bylgaryen

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16
I think there are more shades of grey than that. Not every instance of a scantily clothed female character in a video game is objectification & it's sometimes down to interpretation what objectification is and what an artistic expression is. Not that it was the case with, for example, Chloe from Life is Strange, but if she was dressed more "slutty", I wouldn't think she'd be objectified. Why? Well there is so much more to her character than how she's dressed. For some, though, yes, it is objectification and no that isn't fun & I agree it's sexist.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,430
Canada
In fact a game doing this would be an interesting way to subvert cultural norms and help to highlight how ridiculous the whole thing is.

They kinda DO do that, and it IS played up for ridiculousness when it is.

That's kinda what sucks: If a girl is dressed in a metal bikini, no one really asks questions and it's totally in the norm; if a guy does it, it's often as the butt of a joke.

And Gladiolus is quite literally Noctis' shield. His duty is to protect Noctis at all cost. And he runs around in leather pants and a open shirt. The designs are meant to look good nothing more nothing less.

And how is Cidney framed? A talented Mechanic who can get the group's car running again no matter what shitty condition it is in, can upgrade it to the point where it becomes an airship and has a fun personality. Yes visually they go full on sexy mechanic including camera angles but that isn't all there is to her and just because she is sexualized shouldn't mean you can just reduce her to the visual aspect of the character

Do people see that part of her first or her giant knockers? You ruin a character's character when you frame them as a sex object.
Totally relevant (since this one deals with a sexy mechanic too):


And don't compare male and female sexualization to each other. It's not going to work because women are scrutinized and ogled significantly more for their body. Cindy's thong, work-regulated bikini, and "necessary" high heels isn't vindicated because Gladio can't find a t-shirt.

EDIT:
I doubt we'd see a cutscene if Cid or his grandson (Mid?) were taking point.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,562
The game itself seems very uninterested in Cidney when we aren't leering at her uncomfortably... The car wash scene is particularly egregious.

That doesn't mean her character is just that. She is a side character who i wish had a much bigger role in the game as i really liked her. Personality, design, jp. VA.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402
The way games sexualize characters is sexist most of the time. That's why it's such a big issue that progressively minded people want to change, finally. And nowhere in that post does he/she say ALL sexualization. This thread is about the kind that people find issue with, not all sexy things. People don't have to specify not-so-problematic kind in their posts.
Pretty much. Hell, I often give examples of portrayals of scantily clad women, or even sexualized women, that I wouldn't consider sexist. Problem is, almost all of them are hypothetical because apparently writing actual expressions of female sexuality is legit difficult for the video game industry... :D
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,338
I get the OP's point but just to perhaps look at the other side of the coin ... is there anything expressly wrong with games targeted at what 13-19 year old boys like?
Teenage boys inherently like the content of sexual imagery, sure, but the context in which it is delivered(in this case, the objectification of women via character design choices) makes all the difference in forming the minds of those same boys.
 

marimo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
612
I get the OP's point but just to perhaps look at the other side of the coin ... is there anything expressly wrong with games targeted at what 13-19 year old boys like? They are a large portion of the gaming community. I'm all for games that target other/broader demographics too and I think we are definitely seeing more varied representations of women in gaming and that's cool.

But I understand too that when I look at the cover of a romance novel that a lot of those are for a certain female demographic, hence the depiction of men on the cover is usually with long flowing hair, tall, shirtless, muscular, etc. It's a fantasy.

It becomes a problem when it's the norm. Romance novels are a niche, not the norm.

Edit: also, 13-19 year old boys are not as large a portion of the gaming audience as women.
 
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DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
The way games sexualize characters is sexist most of the time. That's why it's such a big issue that progressively minded people want to change, finally. And nowhere in that post does he/she say ALL sexualization. This thread is about the kind that people find issue with, not all sexy things. People don't have to specify not-so-problematic kind in their posts.

I didn't comment on the thread as a whole, I'm commented on a subset of posts and arguments that pop up from time to time on the progressive side that don't leave room for non-sexist sexualization. And I did it in posts that were in response to individuals liking sexual content, not sexist content, and implying specific direct results. If there is a distinction intended to be present there you'd think those posters would expend the effort of making it.

Otherwise it really does read as it's written. And it seems off that this is the only spot that I'm apparently supposed to pick up on the fact that these individuals were commenting on something other than what they were responding to, but don't need to make that clear because no one would assume there is a relationship between what they quoted and their own words.

Wat?
 

Jubbe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,779
They kinda DO do that, and it IS played up for ridiculousness when it is.

That's kinda what sucks: If a girl is dressed in a metal bikini, no one really asks questions and it's totally in the norm; if a guy does it, it's often as the butt of a joke.

This is why I'm saying it's a false equivalency. It's not the sort of thing you could do straight-faced in a way that would make men feel uncomfortable, because men don't have the same kind of insecurities that women have imposed on them by society.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
And Gladiolus is quite literally Noctis' shield. His duty is to protect Noctis at all cost. And he runs around in leather pants and a open shirt. The designs are meant to look good nothing more nothing less.

And how is Cidney framed? A talented Mechanic who can get the group's car running again no matter what shitty condition it is in, can upgrade it to the point where it becomes an airship and has a fun personality. Yes visually they go full on sexy mechanic including camera angles but that isn't all there is to her and just because she is sexualized shouldn't mean you can just reduce her to the visual aspect of the character
Yes, she has her good aspects too. That just makes the blatant objectification even more unnecessary and crappy. Criticizing her objectification is not "reducing her to just her visual aspect", it's wanting better for an otherwise ok character.

And sure, Gladio's clothes are kind of goofy for the role he has. Still, there's a big difference in how the devs treat him vs. how Cindy is treated.
 

mandiller

Member
Oct 27, 2017
573
Australia
Well do you dislike the designs because they are sexualized, or do you dislike them because they are really bad character designs. I think it's important to make a distinction because more often than not bad design tend to be embarrassing anyway.

Well, it's because there is cleary a big imbalance between how male and female characters are designed. Eg: Xenoblade 2 with the 'boob window' and armor design.

2_AA2_D200-_A88_C-46_BF-_BA22-5_B4_F58841_DFB.png


Characters can be designed to be sexy, sure. But it's the imbalance between sexes that I hate. This sort of thing like in the picture is just ridiculous.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,857
Japan
There's a difference between characters being attractive and being sexualized. Yes the male characters of FFXV are designed to be attractive. But games aren't just happy to have "attractive" female characters. I may disagree with a few posters in this thread and do think Gladiolus' design isn't just power fantasy. It does appear to be a design where a degree of sexualization is at play. But it's nothing compared to what other female characters see. Even if the design is sexualized he's but objectified in game. The camera doesn't zoom, slow pan, and Leer. You can notice that it's a bit out of place, while more or less ignoring it. The game doesn't let you ignore Cindy's sexualization in game, and guess what, she's wearing far less than Gladiolus is.

It's easy to get lost in the weeds here and talk about what women find sexy and how it compares to men. So let's drop that and stop and think about what it would look like if men sexualized men. There are, in fact, men in this world who attracted to other men and they're generally not just interested in some washboard abs or a muscular character.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
and why do you think we're seeing better representation?

Because other audiences are making their voice heard and that's great. But I'm not sure if saying well all games now need to fit into that formula and you can't make games that fulfill (admittedly somewhat juvenile) fantasies of a 14-19 year old boy is the right way. As long as there's a good amount of choice for all demographics I think that's fine.

I mean going back to the "romance" novel genre ... do I think the women that read these books are degenerates or terrible people? No.

f5a9b6d310f68a21efef1fe50b8a38b1--nook-books-books-to-read.jpg


677070.jpg


n91643.jpg


9780425219607_custom-ed32142ab89b23df26f770528a366f98ed4723d5-s400-c85.jpg


Is that a realistic depiction of a man? Is there even a reason for the dude in the last shot to ripping his shirt open? No. It's a fantasy. And a certain demographic of women are the main consumer base there, it's what they want.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,562
Yes, she has her good aspects too. That just makes the blatant objectification even more unnecessary and crappy. Criticizing her objectification is not "reducing her to just her visual aspect", it's wanting better for an otherwise ok character.

And sure, Gladio's clothes are kind of goofy for the role he has. Still, there's a big difference in how the devs treat him vs. how Cindy is treated.

She is a npc. Gladio, while yes not playable in the main game, is a main protagonist. Of course he is going to get treated differently and if Cidney was part of the main group she would have also been treated differently aswell.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
Is that a realistic depiction of a man? Is there even a reason for the dude in the last shot to ripping his shirt open? No. It's a fantasy. And a certain demographic of women are the main consumer base there, it's what they want.

Is your argument that video games are for boys so all the girls should piss off? Is that what you are going for?

Christ, dude.

As for the romance novels... they are pandering trash that exist in a very, very niche market. The comparison isn't even close.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I didn't comment on the thread as a whole, I'm commented on a subset of posts and arguments that pop up from time to time on the progressive side that don't leave room for non-sexist sexualization. And I did it in posts that were in response to individuals liking sexual content, not sexist content, and implying specific direct results. If there is a distinction intended to be present there you'd think those posters would expend the effort of making it.

Otherwise it really does read as it's written. And it seems off that this is the only spot that I'm apparently supposed to pick up on the fact that these individuals were commenting on something other than what they were responding to, but don't need to make that clear because no one would assume there is a relationship between what they quoted and their own words.

Wat?
You come in this thread demonizing feminazis horrible censorship based on a single post that never utters the words "all sexualization is bad". Saying "sexualization can have real life consequences that relate to sexual abuse & harassment" is not the same as saying "all sexualization is bad". Again, you are projecting.
 

Jubbe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,779
Because other audiences are making their voice heard and that's great. But I'm not sure if saying well all games now need to fit into that formula and you can't make games that fulfill (admittedly somewhat juvenile) fantasies of a 14-19 year old boy is the right way. As long as there's a good amount of choice for all demographics I think that's fine.

I mean going back to the "romance" novel genre ... do I think the women that read these books are degenerates or terrible people? No.

Is that a realistic depiction of a man? Is there even a reason for the dude in the last shot to ripping his shirt open? No. It's a fantasy. And a certain demographic of women are the main consumer base there, it's what they want.

Pretty sure in those covers the implication is that those characters are about to fuck. There is nothing wrong with a sexualised character if that plays into the character. Like if the character is supposed to be a seductress or something then it makes sense. The issue is when we have female warriors that are charging into battle with metal plating that barely covers their areolas.

EDIT: Also, I haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think anybody is arguing that people that play MGSV are horrible people. Just that MGSV could probably be enjoyed by even more people if Quiet put a shirt on.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893


As a piece of satire, this works okay. As long as it is primarily just trying to be petulant. It certainly doesn't prove any points. None (or at least very, very few) of those butts are being framed sexually. Also, you may want to ask some hard questions about the kind of content you want to be associated with...
 

marimo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
612
Because other audiences are making their voice heard and that's great. But I'm not sure if saying well all games now need to fit into that formula and you can't make games that fulfill (admittedly somewhat juvenile) fantasies of a 14-19 year old boy is the right way. As long as there's a good amount of choice for all demographics I think that's fine.

I mean going back to the "romance" novel genre ... do I think the women that read these books are degenerates or terrible people? No.
[snip]
Is that a realistic depiction of a man? Is there even a reason for the dude in the last shot to ripping his shirt open? No. It's a fantasy. And a certain demographic of women are the main consumer base there, it's what they want.

Point us to where anyone is arguing that men who play these games are "degenerates or terrible people". Or, for that matter, that no one should ever be allowed to make a game with sexualized women. You are reading personal insult into a general media critique thread.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Pretty sure in those covers the implication is that those characters are about to fuck. There is nothing wrong with a sexualised character if that plays into the character. Like if the character is supposed to be a seductress or something then it makes sense. The issue is when we have female warriors are charging into battle with metal plating that barely covers their areolas.

Well, it's part of what that demographic perhaps likes. It's not what I look for in a game, but I don't think every character aesthetic decision needs to be rationalized. It's a game that is choosing to mainly target itself to the desires of 13-19 year old boys that OK *so long* as there are alternatives for people who don't want that.

Just like romance novels ... are those realistic depictions of a man? You're not finding too many tubby, short, or balding guys represented there. That's because the women who read those books don't want to see that on the cover on those novels, and there's nothing expressly wrong with that.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
You come in this thread demonizing feminazis horrible censorship based on a single post that never utters the words "all sexualization is bad". Saying "sexualization can have real life consequences that relate to sexual abuse & harassment" is not the same as saying "all sexualization is bad". Again, you are projecting.

You've just generated a giant bowl of word soup based on literally nothing that has actually happened over the course of my posts. I showed you what was said which didn't leave room for a lack of consequence, nor for a distinction between good and bad sexualization.

Even your later rationalization doesn't leave much room for good sexualization in existing works by calling it bad the majority of the time. If those posts didn't lend to that intepretation why did you give that follow up without solicitation?
 

Garf02

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,420
Just that MGSV could probably be enjoyed by even more people if Quiet put a shirt on.
any game would be enjoyed by more people if X or Y change were made, is a pure mater of person to person opinion. sexuallity is something we all perceive different, if someone goes around calling everything sexual, that means that person see it as such. and such the world should not bend backwards to please that person.
 

Jubbe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,779
Well, it's part of what that demographic likes. They like fantasy and hey they like sexy women. It's not what I look for in a game, but I don't think every character aesthetic decision needs to be rationalized. It's a game that is choosing to mainly target itself to the desires of 13-19 year old boys that OK *so long* as there are alternatives for people who don't want that.

Just like romance novels ... are those realistic depictions of a man? You're not finding too many tubby, short, or balding guys represented there. That's because the women who read those books don't want to see that on the cover on those novels, and there's nothing expressly wrong with that.

Jesus, dude. The difference is that those novels are about fucking. Like they have graphic descriptions of men inserting their penises inside women. That is what they are about and why they exist. They are allowed to have sexualised characters, that is literally the point.

A video game about fighting dragons in the desert doesn't need a mechanic with her tits out and it alienates 50% of the population that already feel objectified by society at large.

You're argument is "I don't feel offended by the sexy men, why should women feel offended by the sexy women", which is the most immature, false equivalency bullshit there is.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
She is a npc. Gladio, while yes not playable in the main game, is a main protagonist. Of course he is going to get treated differently and if Cidney was part of the main group she would have also been treated differently aswell.
They both are featured in cutscenes. They both get plenty of character specific animations.

Heck, it's even more damning that Gladio, despite getting even more screentime, does not have a single moment of the kind of blatant objectification that Cindy gets the first moment we see her in the game.
 

Fishious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
You are doing (with a very light approach, i have to admit) exactly what i said people do, i never diminished the importance of the discussion (you can look at my previous posts...they might surprise you). The analogy was about THE WAY these discussions go...and just as i had to do in many previous post, i need to clarify useless stuff because it's far too common for people to inject their thoughts in other people's posts and read what they want to read into them rather than taking the simplest approach and just read the actual words.

But i get the appeal of "proving people wrong", however misguided that might be.

EDIT: the point is that there is a HUGE problem with the manner in which these issues are both expressed AND received, so to focus on "it's not coca cola and oj, man!!!" out of my previous post, pretty much proves my point and it's also a bit depressing.

P.S. i'm out btw, arguing is the last thing i wanna do. Cheers :)
You said you're out, but for anyone else reading along (or if you do decide to come back later) I'd like to clarify. And I'm trying to take care with my words, but in case it doesn't come across know this: I'm trying to be informative. I don't post a lot because usually I feel like other people have beaten me to it and done it better. I'm chiming in now because I think I can add something of value.

I never said you were diminishing the importance of the discussion. I was pointing out why people were taking issue with your analogy and I was trying to explain how some of the details of this particular conversation make it different from other conversations on this forum. And that aside, you're not wrong that somewhere along the line people start dropping the pretense of civility and that tends to escalate things. And this is a subject that has been trod many times. Many of the regulars who post in these threads and the ones who have been posting in here all day have made their arguments dozens of times and they've gotten grouchy. I don't blame them. I'm assuming that you're posting in good faith. In your original post you said:

"Trying OJ won't kill you once in a while even if you love Coca Cola, maybe it'll turn out you're actually a big fan of OJ and you didn't know it.
On the other hand, nobody should force OJ down anyone's throat or fight to make it the only drink ever."

So I wanted to point out that this is not the kind of discussion where the two things being weighed are on equal footing and it just comes down to preference. And obviously my retort seemed specifically aimed at you since I quoted you, but I responded because I thought it was something that might be relevant to the other people reading along as well since it comes up pretty often.

Regarding your thing about injecting thoughts and reading posts, there's always going to be some interpretation that comes into play when talking with other people whether we intend it or not. Even more so with the written word. For example, you got a bit defensive saying you "never diminished the importance of the discussion" and follow up with the parenthetical which, by my reading, suggests that you were under the impression I'd mistakenly responded since, if I had read your previous posts (I had) I'd realize we had some ideas in common. Then the "But i get the appeal of 'proving people wrong', however misguided that might be" implies to me that you're assuming I replied for the sake of a "gotcha" moment. I didn't. So the hilarious sitcom-esque scenario is in all this is you've asserted that I misread your post when in fact you seem to have misinterpreted mine. And now, like you I'm writing in excruciating detail trying to make sure my tone comes across correctly and you understand there are no hard feelings and I'm not picking on you :)
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
The issue with your analogy is that this isn't a subject that comes down purely to taste. For things like food and genre preferences your analogy is applicable. Heck, I'd say it'd work for Microsoft vs Sony vs Nintendo video game debates which can consist of more than just taste, but ultimately it's a low stakes argument. Somebody shits on one of the 3 and it doesn't matter because they're all huge corporations raking in cash and our arguments here don't mean much to them. Bringing that kind of analogy in here is problematic because women face inequality on a daily basis in their real lives. So coming home and looking for an escape in video games only to find that women are treated like objects can hit too close to home. This subject has plenty of room for discussion about how sexuality is employed in video games for men and women, when that crosses into objectification, and how that impacts gamers, the industry, and society.

TL:DR- The subject of sexualization and objectification of women in games needs to be treated with respect and a certain level of decorum because it can negatively affect people and has societal implications. Comparing it to forum warrior fights misses the important nuances specific to the subject at hand.
Thank you!

I do suppose it is quite difficult for a lot of the (mostly heterosexual and cisgendered) male posters to imagine what it's like to live in a universe where your gender is marginalized in so many ways, and that's where a lot of this discussion gets tripped up from the start. Like, I can try to tell guys to imagine a world in which every game had beefcake female protagonists with generic samey features and all the male characters are side characters and frequently relegated to eye candy with exceptions that prove the rule; or imagine a world in which character creators frequently biased towards generically bishounen males with no ability to make a tough-looking or spindly-looking guy, while female characters got the whole nine yards. And then put that into context in a society in which every guy is expected to put out or else he's a "prude", but also only to one specific lady at a time or else he's a "slut", and also often (unspoken, but implied) considered his lady's property because that's just how things work in that society. Unfortunately a lot of folks apparently lack the imagination to fully understand just how all-encompassing that reality is.

I want some easy way to verbalize what this world is really like for me. It's not easy, though, and I guess that's just the nature of the problem.
 
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