I think that post was agreeing with Morrigan and highlighting the post. Where it says 'everyone talking... let me ask you this' it's directed at others making those points.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
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I didnt' feel he was talking to Morrigan but to the people that deflects discussion with the "I like these designs" or "I know a girl tha likes to cosplay".... so, basically agreeing with Morrigan.
While that's an idiotic channel, the counter examples seem pretty solid.
Just wanted to weigh in on this, and hope my opinion isn't controversial.
I think a big part of the reason you see a lot of sexualised designs is that in reality, video games aren't made to target everyone. As a user researcher I get to see a lot of the marketing side of video game development, and it's not uncommon that a game developer will assign a persona of a user that's a 20-40 year old male (obviously this is just an example, and will vary quite a bit, sometimes the target audience will be female, particularly for mobile games). The game is then designed to attract that audience of players.
Some of the criticism of sexualisation in games operates around the assumption that games are made for everyone, but this isn't true. And I would imagine that the reason genders aren't given equal representation is likely that this contrasts the data that the publishers have, suggesting that their target audience likes sexualised female characters. This is particularly true for Eastern developers, who in my experience, describe the sexualisation as an issue that only impacts their Western audience.
Personally I think many of the issues that we label as sexism stem from how boys and girls are treated in early childhood. Not just video games, but the tech industry in general is marketed towards boys, and not girls. Girls have to deviate from the social norms of their peers if they want to play something like video games. It's not just video games either, and sexualisation of women isn't at the heart of the issue - if I think back to playing Pokemon, Magic, or Dungeons and Dragons at school, those are all activities that were marketed towards males, and a girl would often need to deviate from the social norms of her peers, if she wanted to play with them. I think those social norms for females are curated by the toys and whatnot, that are marketed towards them, and I think this is a the root of the problem. Why would developers start making games for women, if our society teaches women from an early age, that games, and activities analogous to them, are not designed for them.
Note that boys toys are analogues with activities we see in popular video games, girls toys are not. I think this is at the heart of the problem. By the time you're looking at these mainstream video games like Street Fighter V, League of Legends, Paladin's etc that are featuring sexualised representations of women, the target audience has been exposed to the same type of experience for the last 15 years of their lives. Shooters and action games are played to predominantly male players, and it is this way, because males are taught to like this type of experience from an early age. This then, leads to the sexaulisation of female characters, because in honesty, the reality is that many males do find those designs appealing. I would argue that it wouldn't be this way if we had more gender overlap between the activities both sexes of children enjoy. This, I argue is the cause of the issue, and the sexualisation of females we see in, for example, Dead or Alive, is just a symptom of it. Getting the developers to adjust their representation of women doesn't remedy the issue - in Dead or Alive's case, the only thing it would be likely do would be to negatively impact the comercial performance of the game.
This isn't to say that I feel that any of this is the way things should be, just giving my opinion on why things are the way they are.
I think a big part of the reason you see a lot of sexualised designs is that in reality, video games aren't made to target everyone. As a user researcher I get to see a lot of the marketing side of video game development, and it's not uncommon that a game developer will assign a persona of a user that's a 20-40 year old male (obviously this is just an example, and will vary quite a bit, sometimes the target audience will be female, particularly for mobile games). The game is then designed to attract that audience of players.
Some of the criticism of sexualisation in games operates around the assumption that games are made for everyone, but this isn't true. And I would imagine that the reason genders aren't given equal representation is likely that this contrasts the data that the publishers have, suggesting that their target audience likes sexualised female characters. This is particularly true for Eastern developers, who in my experience, describe the sexualisation as an issue that only impacts their Western audience.
Personally I think many of the issues that we label as sexism stem from how boys and girls are treated in early childhood. Not just video games, but the tech industry in general is marketed towards boys, and not girls. Girls have to deviate from the social norms of their peers if they want to play something like video games. It's not just video games either, and sexualisation of women isn't at the heart of the issue - if I think back to playing Pokemon, Magic, or Dungeons and Dragons at school, those are all activities that were marketed towards males, and a girl would often need to deviate from the social norms of her peers, if she wanted to play with them. I think those social norms for females are curated by the toys and whatnot, that are marketed towards them, and I think this is a the root of the problem. Why would developers start making games for women, if our society teaches women from an early age, that games, and activities analogous to them, are not designed for them.
What you get if you google girls toys said:
Boys toys said:
Note that boys toys are analogues with activities we see in popular video games, girls toys are not. I think this is at the heart of the problem. By the time you're looking at these mainstream video games like Street Fighter V, League of Legends, Paladin's etc that are featuring sexualised representations of women, the target audience has been exposed to the same type of experience for the last 15 years of their lives. Shooters and action games are played to predominantly male players, and it is this way, because males are taught to like this type of experience from an early age. This then, leads to the sexaulisation of female characters, because in honesty, the reality is that many males do find those designs appealing. I would argue that it wouldn't be this way if we had more gender overlap between the activities both sexes of children enjoy. This, I argue is the cause of the issue, and the sexualisation of females we see in, for example, Dead or Alive, is just a symptom of it. Getting the developers to adjust their representation of women doesn't remedy the issue - in Dead or Alive's case, the only thing it would be likely do would be to negatively impact the comercial performance of the game.
This isn't to say that I feel that any of this is the way things should be, just giving my opinion on why things are the way they are.
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That's not true
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...iggers-sexual-desire-pt-2-what-s-erotic-women
Or if you want a secondary source
https://www.rwa.org/page/romance-industry-statistics
Or you can take the "poster books" of the last generation, and do note the translation into many different languages/cultures as unsurprisingly women in different corners of the world may seek after the same fantasy stimulation. Just as games are translated into many different languages, and porn, heck it doesn't even matter what language is spoken (briefly) in it. The whole world can be watching the same video.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/fifty-shades-grey-sales-hit-683852
They simply cater for many women who to the irony in this topic often get brushed aside/not listened to because they do not conform to certain opinions. Opinions/sources that often show that women do and can enjoy taking part in sexualisation/sexual fantasy, but due to some of what that psychology today link I posted states it may manifest in a different way than men, on average. Look at the poll above, 84% female bias for romance novels. Over 90% in the first link. Compare and contrast that to how some genres in gaming are heavily male dominated
https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/
And the above is based on looking at what male/female interests are IN the actual game
https://quanticfoundry.com/2016/12/15/primary-motivations/
Unsurprisingly, a lot more is going on under the surface to influence what the sexes may, on average, seek out in video games. You can't just cook the books to try and hit 50/50 as some target of equality. This is a hobby, and like other hobbies, sometimes there can be a predominant difference between the sexes. Not necessarily for a nefarious reason. I mean look at sports games
Is anyone really panicking about trying to get that 2% higher? That more female gamers need to be playing FIFA and Madden? Could it be that HIGHLY competitive games like that, as per men having competition lead the way primarily in their motivation, ends up favouring a sports game? Worth thinking about.
A difference with gaming though as I mentioned earlier in this topic is more female gamers are trying to get into games, and play games. Yes, even some of the genres stacked 60~70%+ in favour of males above. With romance novels I seriously doubt many men at all are even trying to get into them. It's just not much of a cross-over interest, largely because they aren't visually stimulating. This is why we do see more female gamers asking for diversity and more opportunity, which is indeed healthy. Understanding why things happen though, such as why if 80~90% male developers are creating content it's going to largely cater to themselves, should be somewhat enlightening when backed up with science/reasoning. As I'll say below though, sometimes knowing why, on a deeper level, doesn't seem to be what some truly want. It's much easier just to try and reinforce your already made up opinion/belief with soundbites and sassy one-liners to expain what is undoubtedly a more complex reality.
This is why debate happens in such topics as this, as when people start throwing around pretty serious accusations and/or believing their worldview is 100% representative of the larger world, it can cause others to challenge them. It's not necessarily personal, it's challenging opinions/representation of facts. Or summed up in one word, debate. Everyone wants a debate, until a debate gets tricky/hits close to home/really challenges you, then it's not as comfortable or fun. Easier to just state anyone not sharing my opinion is my enemy/one of those in the other camp. It should be fun though, we exist to have our innermost feelings and beliefs constantly under threat to make sure we're always learning and growing.
Thanks for the response, I presume some wouldn't feel comfortable speaking as openly. As I mentioned earlier I think to try to get some wider scope research done into some of the questions I asked you would be interesting. A poll of a few hundred, if not thousands, would be enlightening. I don't have the ability or financial backing to do that properly, a survey on surveymonkey or something isn't as robust as a proper MSM gaming outlet or gaming stats think-tank doing it. Maybe I'll ask politely if Kotaku (Jason even) or if anywhere else would consider trying to do a well-thought out piece, with polling, of what male gamers are looking for in games when it comes to sexual stimulation (purely visual vs all the other considerations). My guess hypothesis is as I said earlier, as games routinely last 10~40+ hours, actually liking the character may well play a bigger role than some think, alongside their breasts, butt and tight clothing. Many love 2B and Bayonetta, but besides being sexy they are well fleshed out and pretty bad ass characters. Quiet, as much as she's the most polarizing of all, is still a bad ass character, from the point of view she's totally overpowered. Both in gameplay and through story-telling. I still think her story is pretty garbage, as is much of the storytelling in MGS5, but I can be honest and accept that she is a powerful character. People often state they want this kind of feedback, to try and explain why, but sometimes when it appears it may be more multi-faceted/complicated than "asshole disrespectful sexist male gamers" some aren't as interested in deeply exploring the hows and whys.
I'm not surprised you stacked things in order of importance at the end, as it's pretty "normal" that many while they enjoy fantasy, and all the craziness it can display due to dealing with make-believe, it still doesn't top real intimacy/real life. Even if real life isn't about having sex on top of a flying dragon in a world made of candy like something from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. When it comes down to it real life isn't just visual stimulation, it's touch and feelings sensitivity too. Feelings, something that I'm trying to propose can play more of a role in fantasy in games, if it can be proven male gamers do appreciate a fun/enjoyable/friendly character.... with the big breasts. At the end of the day, for most of us, the real "wish" is to find a partner we are best friends with... shocker, love. Most relationships that exist purely based on cosmetics/looks, often end up incredibly depressing/empty after any hooneymoon period. Couples that don't get along as friends either don't manage to stay together long-term, or they make each others lives miserable. Ironically, you do not have any of that issue with fantasy, as if it's either romance novels, or video games, or even porn, whoever is in it exists to satisfy and pleasure you without any of the baggage of real life. As you said though, while that may be stimulating to some extent, like a sex doll would be a subservient sex toy, you can't beat everything real life brings along with intimacy, friendship, feelings and of course not many people are going to stack masturbating/imiginary sex above actual sex.
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Just to clarify: My post was quoting Morrigan as proof of how men concern trolling in threads like these are actively keeping women out of the discussion. The men who keep bringing up examples of "but this sexualized characters is perfectly fine!" are actively missing the point and are knowingly or not creating a toxic discussion environment that side-steps the real issues of systemic sexism in video games.
I think that there is a systemic issue with sexism and how sex is portrayed in general in video games. Video games, even today, still seem to suffer from the same type of sexist issues that Hollywood movies had decades ago. The difference is that while the movie industry moved on and now offers a plefora of different ways to portray genders and relationships videogames, for the most part, have remained the same. Yes there are outliers like the Last of Us or Gone Home but we'd be lying if said the issue isn't still prevalent.
One of the biggest reasons, in my opinion, why this harmful portrayal of genders isn't looked at more seriously is because most of the more vocal or popular voices defending this issue tend to pick the wrong examples to showcase the issue and because of that end up being mocked and diminish the value of their arguments.
Another of the biggest reasons is because people tend to be very passionate when it comes to defending things they love and appreciate and some fans take the criticism or pointing our sexist issues in some of the games they appreciate as a criticism against themselves. Some fans see it as "this game I like isn't sexist because I'm not sexist" which is an understandable but misguided position to have.
Then, of course, you have people who clearly are sexist and take opportunity to troll whenever even the most miniscule flaw with a feminist argument creeps up.
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The highest grossing superhero origin story is an action adventure movie about a female superhero in world war 2 punching the shit out of nazis. I think you're underestimating how many women are into supposedly "dude stuff" or have the potential to be into it if they see themselves represented within it. Case in point, Wonder Woman. I understand what you're saying, but the idea that well-formed female characters doesn't remedy the issue seems wrong to me, especially when you look at the state of pretty much every single other artistic medium.
In fairness to gaming, it's still I think by far the most asexual of all the mainstream entertainment mediums (movie, music, TV, etc.).
The level of "sex" or even "titilation" in a video game rarely even rises to the level of a pop star's music video, which no one really bats at eye lash at these days.
I think the main issue is that gaming has traditionally been a "boys toy" market segment, and now that it's maturing as a medium, there's more women wanting to play as well, which I think is terrific. But you have game designers who are used to making games that aimed at teenage boys/college age men, and in fairness that market segment is still probably the overwhelming majority of the AAA gaming market.
If the market for AAA games was 75% female, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say there probably would be character designs made first and foremost to female tastes and what boys/men wanted would be secondary.
On another hand, i think Vanessa from P.N.03 (see below) was not oversexualized as much as Bayo, and her "dance" was aesthetically beautiful.
I may be in the wrong here but I remember seeing a study number a while ago that showed that the number of women playing games was much closer to men than I previously assumed.
I found a reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games
According to that link the number of female gamers is now closer to 50% in the US. I don't think the issue is that there aren't enough women playing games, I think the issue stems from the fact that most games aren't made by women or by a more diverse range of people.
One thing I don't understand about these discussions is when people act like fanservice is still a huge thing in gaming...it barely exists anymore. Maybe some of these discussions would have been prevalent seven or so years ago, but these days, fanservice in gaming is relegated to generally niche games. There are a few rare exceptions, but that's what they are, exceptions.
I question the spread on a lot of those numbers as it relates to the core AAA types of console games that are usually referenced.
Factoring in mobile, absolutely I think it could be a 50-50 split, but if you're talking something like Metal Gear Solid or The Witcher or even the new Zelda game ... I highly doubt that is anywhere close to a 50-50 split.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Again, let me just underline that I'm merely speaking from my own perspective and from a very limited sample size but all of the women I know who play games own and love the Witcher 3, one of them likes Metal Gear Solid V and made artwork for it that even got her a freebie Collector's item from Konami. I'm the only one of my friends right now that owns a Switch and I only know of one male gay friend that has Breath of the Wild.
Again, really small sample size but I think that men underestimate the idea that some women like to play male power-fantasy games as much as men do.
It depends on whatever your definition of niche is then. Like sure, Naughty Dog isn't doing it but this is a massive issue with Japanese games, which themselves are a huge part of the market.
Well that's great that you have friends/family like that. My experience is pretty much the polar opposite, but I think it's better to look at actual data, I think Nintendo even supplied it for the Switch, and the player base does definitely lean more than a little towards men.
It's great that some women like to play "power-fantasy" games, but I don't think the majority consumer for a game like say Metal Gear Solid is women, and Konami/Kojima certainly tailor the game to fairly specific market I would say. Beyond that there's just the history of the game market is that it was largely tied to the "boys toy" market for many decades. Things are changing, but it's probably not something that happens at the snap of a finger either.
It's not the same in film, though. The Avengers movies, for instance, are actually targeted towards both men and women. Thor for instance, arguably features more scenes with sexualised male characters, than it does female.
Here's some data from The Avengers
http://deadline.com/2012/05/marvels-the-avengers-records-factoids-267389/
40% male, 60% female.
It's not split that way across individual games / platforms across the video game industry, and is directly analogous of how it's not split evenly, across the tech sector.
In general, I think film is pretty nicely portrayed for both men, and women, even from an early age. While I would argue that girls cartoons are pretty bad, but films targeted towards kids accommodate both sexes pretty well. Look at Dreamworks and Pixar. There films are very much, gender neutral with their marketing. Kids are exposed to that content in film from an early age, it's not outside of the social norm for a girl to watch the latest Marvel movie, as it would be for a girl to play the latest Call of Duty.
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I remember my 10 year old self writing down the cheat codes for Naked Lara Croft
How I cringe now thinking about it
It's definitely aimed at our younger audience
How I cringe now thinking about it
It's definitely aimed at our younger audience
So much this. Look, my avatar is from friggin' Bayonetta. To me, that game and character feel incredibly empowering. Some others feel a different way about that particular game. That doesn't mean that the game is bad or that their opinion is invalid at all. Its all in the eye of the beholder and I can definitely appreciate the argument that Bayonetta in particular can be just as harmful as she can be empowering depending on who is interpreting the content. It's just incredibly frustrating to see people over and over again being completely unable to make this mental separation. To me, its not hard to accept that what is positive for me can be negative for someone else. It's basic empathy.
This only means that there is a huge market of female gamers being left untapped because AAA console games aren't being designed with enough diversity. As developers have become more aware of this issue, we have gotten more varied games and that has already paid off. For all its faults, the diversity in Overwatch has clearly resulted in way more women playing it than other fps games. The demand is there, but the supply is only now starting to catch on.
Not to mention who cares about that distinction? A game is a game, why do you get to decide that AAA console games catered to men weigh more than mobile games catered to women? The latter is arguably raking in more money for this industry nowadays.
This is wrong, by the way. Marketing and consumption of early games consoles was specifically gender neutral. There was an active push to push it into the "boys toy" segment later on.
Nier Automata
Persona 5
Final Fantasy XV
Metal Gear Solid V
Witcher 3 (character design)
GTAV
Street Fighter V and probably some other fighting games
And that's just off the top of my head. I wouldn't call the above niche
I'm not defending the way Metal Gear portrays women, in fact I find the way Kojima portrays many of his female characters distasteful, at best, and upsetting when he implies there is a justification for their ridiculous sexualization which, outside of only one case, is never true ("she breathes through her skin").
I do agree with you that there is a tendency to prolong the typical "toys for boys" marketing because it has never failed them or never impeded sales and I guess that from a financial perspective it would be hard to look at the numbers and still decide to take the risk of bringing a female protagonist because that's not a decision that is just about representation but also one that can influence profits or livelihood of the developers.
It will take time for things to change, I agree with you there, but I think having a more diverse range of developers of different backgrounds and genders/identities will do more to diversify games than the market demographics ever will.
Well I mean I think you kind of prove your own point by using actual data there. There is a sizable female market for superhero movies. And what do you see in the latest Thor film? The main actor has his shirt off for no real reason for an entire dialogue scene, that scene is obviously there because they probably looked at some of the demographic splits they've been getting.
Movies and games are not directly comparable always though. Games are a very active medium that are very demanding of its user, if you're not someone who hasn't been gaming from young age regularly it's not easy to get into games, so that does also contribute to a polarization in the type of audience gaming gets. Movies are an easy medium, the only demand they have is that you sit down for 2 hours and they don't have the history of being a "boys toy" that the video game market has had for 30+ years.
that video just proves how different is current sexualization of women and his examples of "Sexualization" of men. It made no sense IMO.
Atleast for me this is how I interpreted your original post.
this is a valid argument and plenty of actual criticism about women's portrayal in video games, but you're not going to convince anyone when there's also naked sweaty dudes and the answer you come up with that is "uh male power fantasy" ... yeah... because women don't like sexuality? didn't you say you're a sex positive feminist?
So should we cover men and women up in burqas now? there's no logical consistency in your complaints.. if you make a valid complaint (which you have) while attributing it to the right cause (there's no single monolithic cause and no one inherently to blame, so you should stop getting angry and annoying people who can help you fix it), and offering a real world practical solution that isn't based on emotion... and that solution involves not freaking out emotionally everytime a female or male shows some skin...
So should we cover men and women up in burqas now? there's no logical consistency in your complaints.. if you make a valid complaint (which you have) while attributing it to the right cause (there's no single monolithic cause and no one inherently to blame, so you should stop getting angry and annoying people who can help you fix it), and offering a real world practical solution that isn't based on emotion... and that solution involves not freaking out emotionally everytime a female or male shows some skin...
It's important that you divorce yourself from anecdotal evidence of genre and platform preferences by virtue of gender. The conception that women aren't interested in certain genres or certain platforms is demonstratively false and it has been used to erase women from games culture since the 80's.
But is there anything we can do to change that? We did the same thing with japanese Games what we did with western titels. One changed for the most part (outside of mmos and f2p games) and the japanese publishers shrugged and changed some little things to make the noise go away.
I think you mistook which side I'm on, or which argument I'm defending.
It's important that you divorce yourself from anecdotal evidence of genre and platform preferences by virtue of gender. The conception that women aren't interested in certain genres or certain platforms is demonstratively false and it has been used to erase women from games culture since the 80's.
Well 1/3 is fair sized minority but it's still minority, it means almost 70% of the console market is male, and the splits probably tilt more in that favor for some of the more high profile games that people go on about (MGS, GTA, etc.).
I'm just saying I don't think game designers are assholes or something, they are adjusting to changing demographics, but gaming's history is rooted in being a "boys toy" and that is still a very large demographic.
I don't think any game company actively wants to turn down money, they are doing business in a way that they think makes them the most money and some of that is rooted in the fact that they've done business a certain way for many years.
It's important that you divorce yourself from anecdotal evidence of genre and platform preferences by virtue of gender. The conception that women aren't interested in certain genres or certain platforms is demonstratively false and it has been used to erase women from games culture since the 80's.
Look at my lengthy post above Lime. Do you see sports games sitting at 2%? Why can't that data have a correlation drawn that it may just be the reality, women, on average, aren't that interested in FIFA and Madden as men are? That isn't saying no women play sports games, it's taking data and drawing a conclusion from it. One that in terms of stats is as heavily one-sided as it can get. 98% one-sided.
Would you flip your statement around and state its demonstratively false men aren't as interested in farming/family sims as women? An almost 70% bias in favour of women above with farming/family sim. What about stepping outside of gaming, and applying your statement to novels? From the same post I made, 84%/90% of romance novels being bought by women. Is it okay to make a conclusion men aren't as interested in the novel genre of romance as women?
Before anyone asks the sample size above, it says it in my post, but here it is again
Keep in mind I did say this above
At the end of the day though, sometimes hobbies and interests in life will have very heavy one-sided biases when it comes to specific genres. These genres can be as welcoming and easy to pick up and play by everyone as possible, but that still doesn't mean personal preference, on a global scale, is just going to shift so that you or anyone else can have a 50/50 split. Or near a 50/50 split. I don't even know if thats what you're after to be fair, so sorry if it isn't, but your statement I bolded is soo loaded and hostile to statistical reality I have to ask you to consider it a bit more.
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Don't really appreciate being used to further your 'villainisation' argument here.
The entire point of my post was that the analogy doesn't work.
And I wasn't villainising anyone - my argument was that the choice has real-world ramifications. It's not an arbitrary thing like 'coke or orange soda'.
He just linked data from the Quantic Foundry survey of 270,000 gamers, and you're rebuttal is a survey with a minimal, 1000 player sample size. Alongside some other arbitrary infographics. I get your point but the data you presented is meaningless.
I don't think anyone is using that data to suggest that women couldn't be interested in certain games or genres, however, I do feel that the data indicates that there are likely issues beyond the sexaulisation of women in games, that make the genre unpopular with women. For example, going back to what I was saying above, I think the gender designation of childhood toys, and how many boys toys are direct analogues to male-dominated video game genres, is likely a significant factor and arguably a huge part of the issue.
Of those games that you mentioned, I'd only really say that GTAV and Witcher 3 aren't niche. Maybe MGSV as well, though I feel that's generous. Automata would be a sales failure by most modern metrics (mainly due to issues with AAA gaming), fighting games hold nowhere near the sway they once did, JRPG's have always been a small niche (FFVII has only sold around 11 million units worldwide in all of it's incarnations as of 2015 and it's generally considered one of the top selling JRPG's of all time). Japan is making bigger and better games, but they still aren't up to the role of a major player yet.
Because other audiences are making their voice heard and that's great. But I'm not sure if saying well all games now need to fit into that formula and you can't make games that fulfill (admittedly somewhat juvenile) fantasies of a 14-19 year old boy is the right way. As long as there's a good amount of choice for all demographics I think that's fine.
I mean going back to the "romance" novel genre ... do I think the women that read these books are degenerates or terrible people? No.
Is that a realistic depiction of a man? Is there even a reason for the dude in the last shot to ripping his shirt open? No. It's a fantasy. And a certain demographic of women are the main consumer base there, it's what they want.
These covers are awesome.
Why can't we get some games + game covers like this.
Right, and it's a fair enough point, but what you're doing is rhetorically minimising the discussion to 'both sides are being idiotic and arguing in a circular fashion!' rather than actually engaging with the discussion. If you tried to actually cut through the 'loop' as you describe it, rather than commenting on the loop itself, people might have responded better.
Most people criticising biased female sexualisation in this thread are not arguing for censorship. People will have seen your comment without the context of someone implying censorship and assumed you were another one of the blunt-headed 'feminism is censorship' folk.
"but you're not going to convince anyone when there's also naked sweaty dudes and the answer you come up with that is "uh male power fantasy""
Don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Almost every male we have in gaming currently is a 'male power fantasy'. But there are practically no 'female power fantasies', while there are many sexualised women, and very few sexualised men. Sexualisation does not always = power fantasy. If there were more men in gaming like on the covers of the novels above, nobody would be calling it a power fantasy. It would just be sexy men designed to titillate women (and homosexual/bisexual men). Which is fine, as long as it goes both ways in the medium (which it currently doesn't).
English isn't my native tongue so my post might have been slightly confusing. But it honestly goes to prove my point even further: all the men posting false equivalence arguments left and right create this toxic discussion where I'm honestly not shocked whenever a woman misinterprets posts like mine at a glance because there's just so much dismissive tripe being posted over and over again. Threads like these should have a god damn FAQ edited into the OP addressing arguments like "but what about sexualized men!?" so derails of that sort can be avoided. Now we have 20 pages of people refuting the same arguments. Its frustrating and like I've said before, I'd much rather see us A) having a more welcoming debate climate where women's opinions aren't being dismissed and B) talk about much more interesting analysis and reflection of exactly HOW different examples have impacted culture and individuals in regards to their view on inclusion, diversity and gender identity. But every time those questions come up they just get run over with the same old boring deflection from men "who just want boobs in their video games", as if those would go away.
See, that's where Bayonetta specifically comes in for me in particular. Its the one female character in video games that has made me actually wish I was her in real life. I wish I could be as powerful and dominating and feminine as she is. Not to say that others should feel the same way because I can definitely see how someone would feel the complete opposite, but that's the effect that character has on me and I think its pretty cool. As a man, I relate way more to her than to Kratos.
This viewpoint is only slightly less harmful than the idea that sexualization is not an issue. The reality is that women and men have different interests - note the edit below. Acknowledging that lets us move on to the next step of finding out what social issues cause that and how we can address the underlying problems. I love reading these threads but there are too many good intentions and not enough working on ways to actually solve the issue. As it stands, the majority of people in this thread are just setting themselves up for a glorious defeat.
to clarify: In many, if not most cases, men and women have different interests.
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cf.:
Chronospherics even if we're currently in a problematic place, the point of discussions like this is to proactively move away from that.
Sorry, but you can't drop a high-horsey post like this with such a massive generalisation like the bolded. It's more complex than that.
But you're right that looking at the underlying causes and how to change them moving forward is the really important thing. Unfortunately most people don't care about progress and think things are just fine and not harmful at all as they are.
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I don't play a lot of games targeted to women, but I do play and really like Style Savvy, which I think is indicative of how to target your game at one gender without excluding the other. The game doesn't overly sexualize men or do anything overt to make men uncomfortable playing it. (Society is another story.) I think it's pretty reasonable to ask that, even if a game is not designed for you, it shouldn't make you feel entirely unwelcome playing it.
I...agree? I'm saying that toy companies are moving away from targeted marketing and have been very successful in doing so, therefore there's no economic reason for games to be targeted solely at boys. Sorry if that didn't come across before.
Yes. If you can look past the gross-ness the DOA games are a lot of fun. I remember early in the development of DOA5 Team Ninja got out there and basically said that they decided they were going to very lightly dial back some of the sexy-ness. They put out a demo of DOA5 and a small but VERY vocal segment of the fanbase complained that some of the characters breasts were now smaller than they used to be. They complained until Team Ninja panicked and relented. Thankfully this happened after NG3 launched so they didn't go back and uh "retool" the female lead in that game. Don't get me wrong, even before fans complained Team Ninja was still fully planning to objectify the DOA women in DOA5 but they at the very least weren't originally going to be the boobie monsters that they are now.
I think there are quite a few strong female lead characters in gaming today.
I'd like to see more, but I don't think there's a none of them either. I think definitely the gaming industry has been making more games with female leads over the last few years for sure.
In regards to Games, there is an audience though, even if they don't just play the games that get talked about a lot on here. A wide range of studies concludes that women do play games at around the same rate as men even though less of them identify as gamers. Here's some data below.
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/27/report-men-play-more-mmos-fpses-women-rule-mobile-rpg/
http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/12/15/attitudes-about-video-games/
http://ukie.org.uk/sites/default/files/cms/UK Games Industry Fact Sheet 26 January 2016.pdf
Women are here and I think we need to acknowledge that, and not create art that deliberately excludes them in order to stroke the egos of an existing male userbase.
I'm a guy, so my perspective on the matter is obviously incomplete, but my perception of the issue is that - at least listening to the female opinions I can more easily reference, that of my sister and my wife - sexyness isn't a problem as long as it's coerent with the context and it doesn't get in the way of reliability.
For example, none of them has a problem with Nu Lara Croft being a beautiful woman on top of being an accomplished adventurer, while both find Ivy from Soul Calibur a bothersome design because even if you could conjure in-lore explanations for her skimpy outfits, there's really nothing to relate to beyond the sexyness. For example, my sister really liked Chloe in Uncharted 2, and when the infamous ladder scene came up she laughed at the joke. I questioned if it was sexist, and her opinion was that it may be possible but A) it made sense within a bigger, more believable fiction, in an extabilished relationship (I constantly make remarks on my wife's b side, but we're not strangers) and she didn't feel she would have minded Nate's comment if she was Chloe (which is the point about immersion) as she filed it under "flirting with friends" and B) it didn't detract from Chloe's character, as the entire scene shows she can more than handle Nate and in fact in their flirting skirmish she definitely comes on top.
Again, my own perspective is definitely less qualified than the contributions from the girls who answered the question, but I'm under the impression that "proportions" play a part in the matter. Sexyness isn't problematic if it's not the most prominent aspect of the character, if it doesn't get in the way of how relatable the heroine is.
Which is something I always try to point out to people who bring up examples like DMC3's Dante to say "it's the same for male characters and we don't complain". The underlying problem is that yes, DMC3's Dante is a teenage-dream Cosmo cover model who looks straight out of a firemen's calendar, but he is that ON TOP of being an accomplished badass with a rich backstory who spends his time pulling cool stunts and throwing cooler one-liners.
The reason why the oversexualization of female characters in videogames is that more often than not said female characters are second rate citizens whose sexyness is usually the most remarkable aspect.
Are 99% of male characters superhunks with six packs and impossibly perfect teeth? Yes, but they're that on top of being actual characters. I don't think any woman is advocating for "ugly" female characters, they're simply asking for attractiveness to be a perk and not the defining factor.
Of course all of that applies to sexualized designs that don't fall into the category of "Ivy/Prince of Persia porn piratess/Playboy Playmate Swordbabe of the Week". Those are irredeemable and beyond salvaging - or discussing.
For example, none of them has a problem with Nu Lara Croft being a beautiful woman on top of being an accomplished adventurer, while both find Ivy from Soul Calibur a bothersome design because even if you could conjure in-lore explanations for her skimpy outfits, there's really nothing to relate to beyond the sexyness. For example, my sister really liked Chloe in Uncharted 2, and when the infamous ladder scene came up she laughed at the joke. I questioned if it was sexist, and her opinion was that it may be possible but A) it made sense within a bigger, more believable fiction, in an extabilished relationship (I constantly make remarks on my wife's b side, but we're not strangers) and she didn't feel she would have minded Nate's comment if she was Chloe (which is the point about immersion) as she filed it under "flirting with friends" and B) it didn't detract from Chloe's character, as the entire scene shows she can more than handle Nate and in fact in their flirting skirmish she definitely comes on top.
Again, my own perspective is definitely less qualified than the contributions from the girls who answered the question, but I'm under the impression that "proportions" play a part in the matter. Sexyness isn't problematic if it's not the most prominent aspect of the character, if it doesn't get in the way of how relatable the heroine is.
Which is something I always try to point out to people who bring up examples like DMC3's Dante to say "it's the same for male characters and we don't complain". The underlying problem is that yes, DMC3's Dante is a teenage-dream Cosmo cover model who looks straight out of a firemen's calendar, but he is that ON TOP of being an accomplished badass with a rich backstory who spends his time pulling cool stunts and throwing cooler one-liners.
The reason why the oversexualization of female characters in videogames is that more often than not said female characters are second rate citizens whose sexyness is usually the most remarkable aspect.
Are 99% of male characters superhunks with six packs and impossibly perfect teeth? Yes, but they're that on top of being actual characters. I don't think any woman is advocating for "ugly" female characters, they're simply asking for attractiveness to be a perk and not the defining factor.
Of course all of that applies to sexualized designs that don't fall into the category of "Ivy/Prince of Persia porn piratess/Playboy Playmate Swordbabe of the Week". Those are irredeemable and beyond salvaging - or discussing.
I think the point that women aren't interested in certain things isn't true but I do think that it's ok if a developer decides that their game is going to be targeted towards a certain demographic and therefore makes design decisions that may not be very appealing to other demographics.
Note the difference between not very appealing and offensive. I don't think anyone should be offended by Bayonetta, because it has a very specific demographic target. Vanquish has a similar demographic target but no male sex appeal, all testosterone and man grunts.
In the same way something like life is strange has an entirely different demographic target and probably won't appeal to every call of duty and grand theft auto player.
Basically I think as long as the developer doesn't intend to offend they should just make whatever they want to make, whether that targets a few limited demographics or it strives to be interesting to as many people as possible.
Certainly in the mobile space you see games targeted directly and with laser accuracy at younger women by the gameplay design, graphic design, sound, and all other things.
Note the difference between not very appealing and offensive. I don't think anyone should be offended by Bayonetta, because it has a very specific demographic target. Vanquish has a similar demographic target but no male sex appeal, all testosterone and man grunts.
In the same way something like life is strange has an entirely different demographic target and probably won't appeal to every call of duty and grand theft auto player.
Basically I think as long as the developer doesn't intend to offend they should just make whatever they want to make, whether that targets a few limited demographics or it strives to be interesting to as many people as possible.
Certainly in the mobile space you see games targeted directly and with laser accuracy at younger women by the gameplay design, graphic design, sound, and all other things.
Aren't most male characters mostly brain dead idiots with huge muscles and super macho mentalities
Or super douchebags
Or super douchebags
Is that not a factual statement? I definitely qualify it immediately afterwards to imply that this bolded statement has a complex cause rather than being some ingrained biological fact of life. Every single one of these threads go along the same general pattern but rarely do I see the opposition becoming convinced by the arguments here.
Progressive change sits in this difficult position of often being actively hampered by its proponents. Understanding these issues is essential for coming up with effective policies and strategies to combat them. If I come off as being on a high-horse, it is because I think that the discussion happening here is important but I wish it was more effective.
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This is the thing about this though is that are the DOA games silly? Yes. Do they even pretend not to be? No. Are they for a particular market? I'd say that's a yes.
Is the game in bad taste? Sure that can be argued. But I guess ... so what? Every medium has things that are in bad taste. A Tarantino move, a South Park episode, a Game of Thrones episode, a Louis CK stand up ... there are things there that while I can laugh at or enjoy, I also understand they are in very poor taste.
It's part of an open, liberal society that things that skirt the edge like that be allowed. Not everyone is going to be happy with artistic expression in entertainment mediums. In movies/TV/fiction writing though I think it's been accepted now that there's such a wide breadth of content that if you don't like something, you just watch/read something else. Quite frankly the amount of sex/sexualization in games versus the amount of gore/violence is also miniscule.
Now when someone says "well I'm playing MGS and it pisses me off that I thought it would be a serious game but right in the middle of it you have a naked woman and it's ridiculous" ... and I get that. I think that's a valid complaint. I guess it feels like "false advertising" in a way, though granted it's not like the MGS series was ever really great for this issue. It's clearly a series made for teenage boys/men.
At no point have I ever said there are none. There are more every year. Which is great.
Also watch out for saying 'strong' re female characters. Would you ever say 'strong male characters'?
No, no, your point was perfect. I was quoting you as a rebuttal against Chronospherics. Hence why I quoted him, wrote cf., and then quoted you :) edited the post to be clearer.
Again, the problem is that A) there's no male equivalent, it's only ok for women to be sexualised like this, and B) maybe DOA is a fringe example but the core issue isn't a fringe one at all - biased oversexualisation of women permeates all of media and videogames more deeply than most.
we agree, let me rephrase;
You're not going to convince people of that who don't care for this argument/have made up their mind already/don't care to hear the argument because all they want to do is turn off their brain and want to play the game (the vast vast vast majority of people)
even if the vast majority in the gaming industry agree with you it's not going to happen because of social inertia.. you really need more women to be involved in the whole thing to produce something that doesn't feel catered (that again you can't ignore people bringing that up even if it seems like a silly excuse) and is more natural.. also you won't do that by making niche boring indie games ; does this seem like a large hurdle? yeah, but unfortunately that's how the game has been set.. i hate bringing up the race card, but as a minority i have some experience with but fortunately less and less
also to the dude who said men and women have different interests and hence different types of games... i love how you ignore that men and women have similarities that games could share too; do we have inherent biological differences? yeah.. but has that stopped us from overcoming it? plenty of things only women should do/have done or men should do/have done are being done interchangeably nowadays; so I feel like that reason isn't entirely valid
Chronospherics and Audioboxer I didn't notice the 270k survey by Quantic Foundry, that looks super interesting. The point is nevertheless that relegating women to "non-hardcore" genres is misleading and provides a form of erasure of how women exist in video game spaces, because as other studies (and the actual women playing these games and in this very thread & forum :lol) show, there is and always have been women playing games throughout all of games history. From that same study, it is a good question for game developers to ask themselves how this is a thing:
Maybe Ubisoft and Bioware did something interesting with these games as to foster such audiences and that there is not specifically an aversion to genres as such, but aversion to other things that make up some of the "hardcore" games. The data I provided from EEDAR and Supercell should be indicative enough of disproving the false and alienating notion that "only men play hardcore console games, while women play browser/phone games."
I know, I was just continuing the conversation and adding to your wikipedia link. Sorry for not being clear and thanks for the post :)
Maybe Ubisoft and Bioware did something interesting with these games as to foster such audiences and that there is not specifically an aversion to genres as such, but aversion to other things that make up some of the "hardcore" games. The data I provided from EEDAR and Supercell should be indicative enough of disproving the false and alienating notion that "only men play hardcore console games, while women play browser/phone games."
I know, I was just continuing the conversation and adding to your wikipedia link. Sorry for not being clear and thanks for the post :)
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