Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Deleted member 2595 · Nov 8, 2017

GUMDROP said:
Is that not a factual statement? I definitely qualify it immediately afterwards to imply that this bolded statement has a complex cause rather than being some ingrained biological fact of life. Every single one of these threads go along the same general pattern but rarely do I see the opposition becoming convinced by the arguments here.

Progressive change sits in this difficult position of often being actively hampered by its proponents. Understanding these issues is essential for coming up with effective policies and strategies to combat them.

rnh94 addressed your point perfectly:

rhn94 said:
also to the dude who said men and women have different interests and hence different types of games... i love how you ignore that men and women have similarities that games could share too; do we have inherent biological differences? yeah.. but has that stopped us from overcoming it? plenty of things only women should do/have done or men should do/have done are being done interchangeably nowadays; so I feel like that reason isn't entirely valid

Gumdrop: I perhaps wouldn't go as far as rhn94, but plenty of women have the same tastes as 'men'. And plenty of men have the same tastes as 'women'. My point in responding to you was that making generalisations that broad (e.g. 'men and women ALWAYS like different things in ALL contexts') is a big rhetorical blunder in the argument.

UltraMagnus · Nov 8, 2017

Paraside said:
At no point have I ever said there are none. There are more every year. Which is great.

Also watch out for saying 'strong' re female characters. Would you ever say 'strong male characters'?

No, no, your point was perfect. I was quoting you as a rebuttal against Chronospherics. Hence why I quoted him, wrote cf., and then quoted you :) edited the post to be clearer.

Again, the problem is that A) there's no male equivalent, it's only ok for women to be sexualised like this, and B) maybe DOA is a fringe example but the core issue isn't a fringe one at all - biased oversexualisation of women permeates all of media and videogames more deeply than most.

Do women even want a male equivalent? The market for a DOA game is fairly tiny to begin with, if women want something similar, have at it I say. But it's also easy for me to say when I'm just sitting behind a keyboard and not investing millions of my money in a business where one flop can potentially sink a studio that's 20-30 years old (we see it all the time). I would like to see more risks taken, but there's a business reality to that.

Dary · Nov 8, 2017

endlessflood said:
I feel like in fantasy there's a definite trope where both men and women are scantily clad:

Ax Battler wears a pair of budgie smugglers, and Tyris Flare wears a bikini. Conan isn't running around in a three piece suit either, nor is Red Sonja. I think all of those character designs are fine.

Yet the designs are still primarily aimed at men. The big, burly barbarian look isn't designed to appeal to women, but to men. It's their fantasy.

UltraMagnus · Nov 8, 2017

Dary said:
Yet the designs are still primarily aimed at men. The big, burly barbarian look isn't designed to appeal to women, but to men. It's their fantasy.

That's highly subjective. Women seem to like big, burly men with long hair on their romance novels over say a "regular" looking man. And even if it is aimed at men ... it's not the worst thing in the world, so long as there are games aimed at women as well.

Zephyrus · Nov 8, 2017

Dary said:
Yet the designs are still primarily aimed at men. The big, burly barbarian look isn't designed to appeal to women, but to men. It's their fantasy.

I've never fantasized about big, burly men. Love how the defense is always "but power fantasy".

Deleted member 888 · Nov 8, 2017

Virtua said:
I think the point that women aren't interested in certain things isn't true but I do think that it's ok if a developer decides that their game is going to be targeted towards a certain demographic and therefore makes design decisions that may not be very appealing to other demographics.

Note the difference between not very appealing and offensive. I don't think anyone should be offended by Bayonetta, because it has a very specific demographic target. Vanquish has a similar demographic target but no male sex appeal, all testosterone and man grunts.

In the same way something like life is strange has an entirely different demographic target and probably won't appeal to every call of duty and grand theft auto player.

Basically I think as long as the developer doesn't intend to offend they should just make whatever they want to make, whether that targets a few limited demographics or it strives to be interesting to as many people as possible.

Certainly in the mobile space you see games targeted directly and with laser accuracy at younger women by the gameplay design, graphic design, sound, and all other things.

That's an incredibly difficult issue to work around though.

I'm pretty certain if you one on one interview, Taro, Kojima, Kamiya, Randy (Gearbox/Moxxi from Borderlands) or any other developer/creator of a female character that skimpily dresses/is sexualised, they'll say that they didn't do it to offend anyone. Does that mean people aren't going to take offence? Heck no. Sure they are.

You could even bring in violence here, considering the ruckus the new TLoU 2 trailer caused. Do you think ND/Druckmann would go on record to say we created this trailer/are creating TLoU 2 to offend? I seriously doubt it. I'm pretty certain you'd be told we're a diverse studio of many ethnicities, genders and beliefs, and this is a work of fiction. I mean, ND and Jim Ryan's response to the trailer was to pretty simply say it's an 18+ event and an 18+ game.

Taking offence is largely a personal issue. It can depend on a whole host of factors, but ultimately it's largely a personal response inside of you, that may not be shared by others. Someone saying they are offended should maybe mean we will listen to what they have to say, to understand and reflect. Being offended however doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to pressure/force some sort of change to remove you feeling offended. Many times in life when it comes to taking offence it's about you finding a way to cope, rather than the world changing for you. That's part of being human, and it's why when it comes to some things within hobbies like games or movies, stating your opinion/criticism and following it up with not buying/watching/listening might be all that is going to unfold. As I said you won't always manage to twist a creator or developers arm to roll out some sort of change/apology/etc to satisfy you.

There are some decent scraps to read through here,here, here and here. It's such a subjective thing though, taking offence, but I just thought I'd highlight due to that "not intending to offend" is quite hard to quantify. I mean, sure, I expect the developers of Postal to shout loud and proud, we want to offend, that's our selling point. Examples like that aside, though, I doubt many of the mainstream targets in topics like these will ever say their goal was to offend. That's not however going to stop people saying they are offended, irrespective of intent.

Lime said:
Chronospherics and Audioboxer I didn't notice the 270k survey by Quantic Foundry, that looks super interesting. The point is nevertheless that relegating women to "non-hardcore" genres is misleading and provides a form of erasure of how women exist in video game spaces, because as other studies (and the actual women playing these games and in this very thread & forum :lol) show, there is and always have been women playing games throughout all of games history. From that same study, it is a good question for game developers to ask themselves how this is a thing:

Maybe Ubisoft and Bioware did something interesting with these games as to foster such audiences and that there is not specifically an aversion to genres as such, but aversion to other things that make up some of the "hardcore" games. The data I provided from EEDAR and Supercell should be indicative enough of disproving the false and alienating notion that "only men play hardcore console games, while women play browser/phone games."

I know, I was just continuing the conversation and adding to your wikipedia link. Sorry for not being clear and thanks for the post :)

I think if anyone is trying to relegate anyone unfairly based on their sex, that is indeed discrimination/hostile intent. As any of these studies/polls/stat collection would disclaimer, you'll always find people interested in things others might not be.

The overall point was to highlight that naturally there are sometimes differences in interests and that's just life. We aren't talking about equal pay here, or equal representation under the law. This is a hobby, and within many hobbies, genres exist. Sometimes certain genres interest others, on average, more than their counterpart. What people do with that information/data is above and beyond the data existing. Sometimes it may lead to thinking can we try and be more appealing to people that aren't playing this game/genre, but other times even doing that might not change much.

UltraMagnus said:
Do women even want a male equivalent? The market for a DOA game is fairly tiny to begin with, if women want something similar, have at it I say. But it's also easy for me to say when I'm just sitting behind a keyboard and not investing millions of my money in a business where one flop can potentially sink a studio that's 20-30 years old (we see it all the time). I would like to see more risks taken, but there's a business reality to that.

It probably would flop, sales wise, because the visual stimulation bias for men is probably highlighted best by DOA. Ironically, Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 not coming to the West only made it more alluring and "taboo" and probably gave it even more sales from mass importing lol (as it was translated into English).

You'd probably be best to try and focus more on a fleshed out dating sim to go after a female audience with the "equivalent" of DOA. It could be an 18+ rated sim as it has nudity/sexualisation/etc in it, graphically, but I doubt practically naked men playing 5~10-minute volleyball matches is going to sell well. This isn't to say there isn't a female audience for a 1:1 female DOA, it's to question how big is that audience? Can it hit hundreds of thousands of sales to justify the budget of a fairly graphically flashy DOA game? If not, something literally the equivalent is not going to get made as it would lose a fair bit of money.

Money/sales can sometimes play a factor, and even with me being incredibly critical of loot boxes/MTs, no, this industry isn't a charity and I understand that. Games that sell are required to make a profit.

SledGod · Nov 8, 2017

GUMDROP said:
This viewpoint is only slightly less harmful than the idea that sexualization is not an issue. The reality is that women and men have different interests. Acknowledging that lets us move on to the next step of finding out what social issues cause that and how we can address the underlying problems. I love reading these threads but there are too many good intentions and not enough working on ways to actually solve the issue. As it stands, the majority of people in this thread are just setting themselves up for a glorious defeat.

Good lord you are smug.

GUMDROP · Nov 8, 2017

Paraside said:
Gumdrop: I perhaps wouldn't go as far as rhn94, but plenty of women have the same tastes as 'men'. And plenty of men have the same tastes as 'women'. My point in responding to you was that making generalisations that broad (e.g. 'men and women ALWAYS like different things in ALL contexts') is a big rhetorical blunder in the argument.

I agree. That is why I didn't say the bolded part. I wrote, "Men and Women have different interests." It should be read exactly as it was written. This does not exclude women from having the same interests as men. It does not exclude men from having the same interests as women. It does not imply all men and women have the same interests or no common interests at all. Unfortunately, my mistake is that is does not stop the reader from applying their own connotation to bend its meaning.

So to be clear, "In many, if not most cases, men and women have different interests." I'll add an addendum to my initial post along with a newfound appreciation of specificity. Thanks for the discourse.

SledGod said:
Good lord you are smug.

To add to your assumption of my smugness, do you think, if I disagreed with whatever opinion you were trying to convince me of, that this post would have any meaningful impact whatsoever? Or did you just waste the time it took to write it for.. what? Someone else to appreciate your biting wit? Thank you for giving me an example of the exact issue I had in mind though. That's honesty, by the way. I feel like I am derailing things so I won't reply to whatever you post. Feel free to post it though and I will read it. Feel free to PM me if you actually have an opinion you feel I need to respond to.

Deleted member 2595 · Nov 8, 2017

Welp.

GUMDROP said:
"Men and Women have different interests."

Is not the same as

GUMDROP said:
"In many, if not most cases, men and women have different interests."

So if that's what you really meant, then cool. We still can't say it for a fact, but it makes some sense. Guess the discussion's over.

Alek · Nov 8, 2017

Lime said:
Chronospherics and Audioboxer

Maybe Ubisoft and Bioware did something interesting with these games as to foster such audiences and that there is not specifically an aversion to genres as such, but aversion to other things that make up some of the "hardcore" games. The data I provided from EEDAR and Supercell should be indicative enough of disproving the false and alienating notion that "only men play hardcore console games, while women play browser/phone games."

Purely anecdotal evidence, but my sister, who typically avoids western rpgs, bought Dragon Age Inquisition because it was 'one of the only Western RPGs with a good story and characters'.

She also liked the Witcher 3, but the most part isn't interested in Western RPGs because they are more combat rather than story orientated.

Something to bear in mind, is that the wrpg and jrpg labels are pretty arbitary. What we see in the data is that women find games with a story focus, appealing (the ratio of women playing 'Interactive Drama' and 'Atmospheric Exploration' is close to 40%).

As for Assassins Creed syndicate. It might have benefited from having a women as a female character, and if I recall, she was also central to the games marketing. Whatever it was though, they decided not to take the same approach with Origins.

Deleted member 2595 · Nov 8, 2017

UltraMagnus said:
Do women even want a male equivalent?

I don't think that's for you or I to say. This thread is about a discussion of the culture - why it's problematic.

You're right there's a business reality to such a decision, but you've got to remember that none of this is in a vacuum - media and culture has an actual influence on what people want, what they think they want, what they think of other people, etc. So if there's no media being created for women like this, then they won't see it, buy it or access it. The market is bypassed. Furthermore, the rest of the market might be overly catering to men, making the whole thing seem like a boys club, putting a lot of women off.

Metal B · Nov 8, 2017

Crossing Eden said:
Not in mainstream gaming there aren't. And that's quite literally on purpose, ignore the title, as this video specifically is about how male characters tend to by design not be sexualized in anyway shape or form, even despite the fact that they have perfect chins, are muscular, have perfect skin, etc.

Oh man, this video shows, how presenting butts this way, just looks stupid (or funny stupid). If you as a guy, find the display of serious characters like Snake's or Nighwing's butt wired and against the tone of the game, then you know how woman feel like, every time they see female characters presented in a similar way. Can we just have characters designed in a way, which fit the context of the game, the character and the situation? And not look stupid, if there aren't supposed to look stupid?

thepenguin55 · Nov 8, 2017

UltraMagnus said:
This is the thing about this though is that are the DOA games silly? Yes. Do they even pretend not to be? No. Are they for a particular market? I'd say that's a yes.

Is the game in bad taste? Sure that can be argued. But I guess ... so what? Every medium has things that are in bad taste. A Tarantino move, a South Park episode, a Game of Thrones episode, a Louis CK stand up ... there are things there that while I can laugh at or enjoy, I also understand they are in very poor taste.

It's part of an open, liberal society that things that skirt the edge like that be allowed. Not everyone is going to be happy with artistic expression in entertainment mediums. In movies/TV/fiction writing though I think it's been accepted now that there's such a wide breadth of content that if you don't like something, you just watch/read something else. Quite frankly the amount of sex/sexualization in games versus the amount of gore/violence is also miniscule.

Now when someone says "well I'm playing MGS and it pisses me off that I thought it would be a serious game but right in the middle of it you have a naked woman and it's ridiculous" ... and I get that. I think that's a valid complaint. I guess it feels like "false advertising" in a way, though granted it's not like the MGS series was ever really great for this issue. It's clearly a series made for teenage boys/men.

I get what you're saying but I would argue that there's literally nothing negative about DOA and fighting games in general massively dialing back their fanservice. The only thing it does is make the game more welcoming. The idea of getting upset because a game dev made a characters breasts smaller and clothes less revealing is hilariously absurd to me. In my eyes Bayonetta is fine because sex is the core of what that character is.

That's not true of almost any of the DOA women. As someone who has played every numbered DOA since 1 the characters sexiness isn't actually core to almost any of those (admittedly vapid) characters, so dialing that sexiness back does nothing but open the game to a potentially wider audience as nothing of importance or value is lost. The core fighting of DOA is so fun but nobody knows those games for their mechanics. They're known for being the dumb boobie games that had that one commercial where the dude says "she kicks high" and sometimes they play volleyball in bikinis. With that in mind, Tecmo would really have to lean into the fact that they're dialing that shit back to attract anyone.

nel e nel · Nov 8, 2017

CptPusheen said:
For many publishers teenage boys are main target and what sells games to them better than boobs. This is sad and I don't think it will end soon. It's all about money

For many publishers, they employ teenage boys as developers.

SeventhEvil · Nov 8, 2017

nel e nel said:
For many publishers, they employ teenage boys as developers.

This is some Jason "Big tits pedophilia" Schreier level of BS.

Alek · Nov 8, 2017

nel e nel said:
For many publishers, they employ teenage boys as developers.

That's not because they are biased to employing male developers. It's because the gender split on game dev courses is like 10/90 in favour of male. In general, there are very few women in the tech sector. It's a huge issue, and yes it does influence game development.

With that said, there are a fair number of women in game dev, that sit in marketing, production and management roles.

Again, it goes back to an issue that's likely rooted in societal attitudes towards gender across childhood development. Barbie doesn't influence girls to become video game developers, she influences girls to become fashion vloggers.

nel e nel · Nov 8, 2017

SeventhEvil said:
This is some Jason "Big tits pedophilia" Schreier level of BS.

This wouldn't be a constant topic of discussion if developers stopped doing it. Considering the rampant sexism and harassment that has been getting exposed in all areas of the entertainment industry and society, it's not a stretch to say that the general attitudes towards sex in our society is immature at best, and toxic at worst.

Chronospherics said:
That's not because they are biased to employing male developers. It's because the gender split on game dev courses is like 10/90 in favour of male. In general, there are no women in the tech sector. It's a huge issue, and yes it does influence game development.

With that said, there are a fair number of women in game dev, that sit in marketing, production and management roles.

Again, it goes back to an issue that's likely rooted in societal attitudes towards gender across childhood development. Barbie doesn't influence girls to become video game developers, she influences girls to become fashion vloggers.

Absolutely agree, but if the gender split is 10/90 in favor of male, how does that NOT make it about hiring biases?

Attitudes regarding gender, sex, race, etc get ingrained in everyone and cut across all of those social lines, and affect all kinds of behavior, including hiring practices. This is well documented in tons of research and studies.

Google released a really great video of a bias training session they held for their employees. This was after Yahoo and Google voluntarily released their internal diversity reports that showed how homogeneous their workforce was. It's long, but it touches on a lot of the topics and unconscious mechanics at work in these types of things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLjFTHTgEVU

Deleted member 888 · Nov 8, 2017

thepenguin55 said:
I get what you're saying but I would argue that there's literally nothing negative about DOA and fighting games in general massively dialing back their fanservice. The only thing it does is make the game more welcoming. The idea of getting upset because a game dev made a characters breasts smaller and clothes less revealing is hilariously absurd to me. In my eyes Bayonetta is fine because sex is the core of what that character is.

That's not true of almost any of the DOA women. As someone who has played every numbered DOA since 1 the characters sexiness isn't actually core to almost any of those (admittedly vapid) characters, so dialing that sexiness back does nothing but open the game to a potentially wider audience as nothing of importance or value is lost. The core fighting of DOA is so fun but nobody knows those games for their mechanics. They're known for being the dumb boobie games that had that one commercial where the dude says "she kicks high" and sometimes they play volleyball in bikinis. With that in mind, Tecmo would really have to lean into the fact that they're dialing that shit back to attract anyone.

Have you seen dead or alive xtreme 3? Dialing back in that game would mean... the game not existing lol.

It doesn't stand much of a chance going up against Street Fighter or Tekken sales-wise, so Tecmo made their own patch of turf by basically being a soft-core porn game. It worked sales wise as most aren't thinking I'll just get SF instead as DOA isn't as good a fighting game. People are buying it largely due to not much else existing as sexually blatant as DOA.

For anyone unaware, I think this trailer should tell you everything you need to know

RM8 · Nov 8, 2017

Speaking of DOA, I'd say it's the only fighting game out there that also sexualizes men. Obviously not to the same level by a long shot, but the men in DOA are handsome (for the most part) and have conventionally attractive bodies. They also have revealing swimsuits like the ladies. No one else does this, really.

Sony · Nov 8, 2017

To be honest, I have trouble sympathisizing with sentiments like this given that the vast majority of male characters in games, while mostly covered, are unrealistic ideal images of the male physique. Yes, Quit is is a porn-star in a game, but let's not forget that Snake is wearing a skin tight suit where practially his muscle vibers are visible.

gutter_trash · Nov 8, 2017

If I notice it as a man, for sure women will notice.

Quiet from MGS5 was a badly designed character with a tacked on story angle to justify the part of the creators, that was blantlant from the creators of that character.
Photosensis? Really? LOL Konami

hotcyder · Nov 8, 2017

gutter_trash said:
If I notice it as a man, for sure women will notice.

Quiet from MGS5 was a badly designed character with a tacked on story angle to justify the part of the creators, that was blantlant from the creators of that character.
Photosensis? Really? LOL Konami

I dunno when I found about it, I was ashamed of my words and deeds :(

Arkage · Nov 8, 2017

Persephone said:
There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks.

So, you cool with DOA beach volleyball? :D

SeventhEvil · Nov 8, 2017

nel e nel said:
This wouldn't be a constant topic of discussion if developers stopped doing it.

This is only a constant topic of a extreme fringe minority in a very tiny bubble. And devs obviously are not going to stop something enjoyed by men and women all across the world just because "5" people on some forum don't like it. You need to give them a reason to stop doing it. And just a little free hint....calling them children is not the way you get them to listen to you.

Dary · Nov 8, 2017

Zephyrus said:
I've never fantasized about big, burly men. Love how the defense is always "but power fantasy".

Because that's what it is.

RM8 · Nov 8, 2017

Sony said:
To be honest, I have trouble sympathisizing with sentiments like this given that the vast majority of male characters in games, while mostly covered, are unrealistic ideal images of the male physique. Yes, Quit is is a porn-star in a game, but let's not forget that Snake is wearing a skin tight suit where practially his muscle vibers are visible.

You have to wonder why Quiet couldn't have gotten a skin tight suit. Or older age, and wrinkles. And some privacy when she takes a shower and stuff :P

Kinthey · Nov 8, 2017

Dary said:
Because that's what it is.

Which doesn't mean that they can't be eye candy.

Ferrs · Nov 8, 2017

RM8 said:
Speaking of DOA, I'd say it's the only fighting game out there that also sexualizes men. Obviously not to the same level by a long shot, but the men in DOA are handsome (for the most part) and have conventionally attractive bodies. They also have revealing swimsuits like the ladies. No one else does this, really.

DOA5 has the same issue diferentiating men and women that have every fighting game, men have more diverse body styles, with Bass, or ages with Genfu.

DOA5 has hot young ladies with the same body type (almost literally if you analize their models)... and a sexualized loli.

They also don't have the destructive clothes DLC if I'm not mistaken.

Dary · Nov 8, 2017

Sony said:
To be honest, I have trouble sympathisizing with sentiments like this given that the vast majority of male characters in games, while mostly covered, are unrealistic ideal images of the male physique. Yes, Quit is is a porn-star in a game, but let's not forget that Snake is wearing a skin tight suit where practially his muscle vibers are visible.

Quiet: what men want.
Snake: what men want to be.
It's all about what men want.

Is this really so hard a concept to grasp?

SledGod · Nov 8, 2017

gutter_trash said:
If I notice it as a man, for sure women will notice.

Quiet from MGS5 was a badly designed character with a tacked on story angle to justify the part of the creators, that was blantlant from the creators of that character.
Photosensis? Really? LOL Konami

Seriously, it's weird how many people are missing the point when it comes to Quiet. The story elements are just there to enable her framing as a sexual object.

I consume my fair share of "blanksploitation" content, so I'm not saying there's no place for it. But when women are so underrepresented in the medium, it's hard not to be critical of these designs.

Cid · Nov 8, 2017

UltraMagnus said:
That's highly subjective. Women seem to like big, burly men with long hair on their romance novels over say a "regular" looking man

This is true

It's basically the same guy everytime

Zephyrus · Nov 8, 2017

Dary said:
Because that's what it is.

again, I've never fantasized about being a big burly man.

Ferrs · Nov 8, 2017

Are we really us men talking about what women like or not like?

Aomame · Nov 8, 2017

Zephyrus said:
I've never fantasized about big, burly men. Love how the defense is always "but power fantasy".

That's not how power fantasies work; you don't fantasize about the men's bodies in the way you would women's bodies in a sexual fantasy. A male power fantasy appeals to what the man wants for himself, i.e. domination, power, control, represented in a mesomorphic body. The man does not necessarily find the hulking, muscular bodies sexually attractive, nor does he necessarily desire to have that body himself. But he is socially conditioned to believe he has that power or that he should gain it.

It's why nerdy, skinny teenage boys idolize buff video game heroes. Because these characters make those boys feel dominant. The point is that these characters are there for men, not for women. They are not sexualized the way women in games are.

Saikar · Nov 8, 2017

There's a definite grey area where this exists.

On one side, you got your games where it's not an issue at all. Your Marios, your Splatoons, even XCOM treats men and women exactly alike (you can barely tell female soldiers are girls at all under all that armor, which is for the best when fighting aliens). And I think these games make up a lot of the gaming market.

And on the other, you have games that are so sexist that there's no real point in trying to complain about them, because that's what they are. Your Senran Kaguras, your Beach Volleyballs, that sort of thing. Complaining about how women are objectified there is absolutely missing the point.

Sure, there's the Witchers and MGSs and stuff that fall in the middle, but its honestly that big of a segment. It feels like blaming all games for what a few of them do is just creating a lot of smoke where there isn't much fire. This is definate vote with your wallet territory; if those games offend your sensibilities, don't buy them. That means and has always been the only way the market can react to what products do. A thousand forum posts mean a lot less than one lost sale to these guys. That's the only way to force market change.

Incidentally, to that one guy saying that super muscles are male fantasies... gunna go with no on this one. When I play a male character, its hard not to compare myself to them, and they're chiseled out of granite whereas I am... well, not. Comparing myself to them is uncomfortable in roughly what I imagine the same way that women can be made uncomfortable by a bunch of impossibly proportioned girls running around. It's one of the reasons I always pick a girl character if possible: its so far away from what I am that there's no real comparison to me as a person, so I can do whatever I want and get swept up with the fantasy world of the game. I realize everyone's got different views on this, and this anecdote is purely personal, and I accept that. And I think it would be better if others around this topic realized that what claims they're making do not apply to all men or all women either.

IwazaruK7 · Nov 8, 2017

Audioboxer said:
DOA isn't as good a fighting game

Shame, cause DoA 5 is best 3d fighting currently regarding mechanics (Only Virtua Fighter 5 was better). But they decided to sell it more by using "fan service" instead of making it even better...

As for Marie Rose, i don't know. Some 20yo look like her, but don't behave like her obviously. Btw her fighting style is spectacular with all those salto, cartwheels and spinning moves.

Deleted member 22585 · Nov 8, 2017

I think it goes both ways. The classic picture of Barbie vs He-Man is a nice analogy, not far away from the situation in videogames.

Yes, the portrait of women in videogames is pretty bad most of the time and it has to change. Though not all women have to be strong, independend etc. because not all women are, I'd like to have a more diverse representation. In addition, the portrait of men as is also pretty one-sided. Just look at protagonists in games, I mean Gears of Was is so ridiculous.

Ferrs · Nov 8, 2017

IwazaruK7 said:
Shame, cause DoA 5 is best 3d fighting currently regarding mechanics (Only Virtua Fighter 5 was better). But they decided to sell it more by using "fan service" instead of making it even better...

I agree, DOA5 gameplay is so good that it's a shame that gets drowned by all the fanservice. It's not really a trash game with tits.

Kemono · Nov 8, 2017

Dary said:
Quiet: what men want.
Snake: what men want to be.
It's all about what men want.

Is this really so hard a concept to grasp?

Aomame said:
That's not how power fantasies work; you don't fantasize about the men's bodies in the way you would women's bodies in a sexual fantasy. A male power fantasy appeals to what the man wants for himself, i.e. domination, power, control, represented in a mesomorphic body. The man does not necessarily find the hulking, muscular bodies sexually attractive, nor does he necessarily desire to have that body himself. But he is socially conditioned to believe he has that power or that he should gain it.

It's why nerdy, skinny teenage boys idolize buff video game heroes. Because these characters make those boys feel dominant. The point is that these characters are there for men, not for women. They are not sexualized the way women in games are.

And why do men want that?

Why do men want power, wealth, a nice body, etc.?

Isn't it solely to impress women and gain their favour?

Not to say that women are at fault here but it's the reason imo why men want these things.

We can surely overcome this and we're not powerless against this but why is fairly simple and proven at this point in our development.

Dary · Nov 8, 2017

Aomame said:
It's why nerdy, skinny teenage boys idolize buff video game heroes. Because these characters make those boys feel dominant.

I've always found it sadly telling how so many people completely missed the core theme of both FF7 and MGS2.

Deleted member 888 · Nov 8, 2017

IwazaruK7 said:
Shame, cause DoA 5 is best 3d fighting currently regarding mechanics (Only Virtua Fighter 5 was better). But they decided to sell it more by using "fan service" instead of making it even better...

As for Marie Rose, i don't know. Some 20yo look like her, but don't behave like her obviously. Btw her fighting style is spectacular with all those salto, cartwheels and spinning moves.

The mainline DOA series has sold pretty well, but I'd argue it's still always been in the shadows of Street Fighter/Tekken. Tecmo just seemed to decide to embrace the sexualisation in their series that was always a bit more in your face than the other games. I mean, DOA makes SF look reserved.

Obviously, the "xtreme" branch goes above and beyond the mainline series, but there's a reason it's kept coming back since 2003 ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_Xtreme_Beach_Volleyball It sells.

This is also hilarious

More so the EGM hoax. Nude mods have been around for games since... who knows when.

Heck, here's a trip down memory lane to action replay codes

Nowadays you don't even really need an action replay. Content warning for some, as if you thought the Xtreme 3 trailer above was bad, this is also part of the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuKGeLZlzI4

I won't embed that video in case I get a warning for it haha.

Dary · Nov 8, 2017

Kemono said:
And why do men want that?

Why do men want power, wealth, a nice body, etc.?

Isn't it solely to impress women and gain their favour?

Because it's what other men have told them they need. Not women: men.

spman2099 · Nov 8, 2017

Audioboxer said:
That's not true

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...iggers-sexual-desire-pt-2-what-s-erotic-women

Or if you want a secondary source

https://www.rwa.org/page/romance-industry-statistics

Or you can take the "poster books" of the last generation, and do note the translation into many different languages/cultures as unsurprisingly women in different corners of the world may seek after the same fantasy stimulation. Just as games are translated into many different languages, and porn, heck it doesn't even matter what language is spoken (briefly) in it. The whole world can be watching the same video.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/fifty-shades-grey-sales-hit-683852

They simply cater for many women who to the irony in this topic often get brushed aside/not listened to because they do not conform to certain opinions. Opinions/sources that often show that women do and can enjoy taking part in sexualisation/sexual fantasy, but due to some of what that psychology today link I posted states it may manifest in a different way than men, on average. Look at the poll above, 84% female bias for romance novels. Over 90% in the first link. Compare and contrast that to how some genres in gaming are heavily male dominated

https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

And the above is based on looking at what male/female interests are IN the actual game

https://quanticfoundry.com/2016/12/15/primary-motivations/

Unsurprisingly, a lot more is going on under the surface to influence what the sexes may, on average, seek out in video games. You can't just cook the books to try and hit 50/50 as some target of equality. This is a hobby, and like other hobbies, sometimes there can be a predominant difference between the sexes. Not necessarily for a nefarious reason. I mean look at sports games

Is anyone really panicking about trying to get that 2% higher? That more female gamers need to be playing FIFA and Madden? Could it be that HIGHLY competitive games like that, as per men having competition lead the way primarily in their motivation, ends up favouring a sports game? Worth thinking about.

A difference with gaming though as I mentioned earlier in this topic is more female gamers are trying to get into games, and play games. Yes, even some of the genres stacked 60~70%+ in favour of males above. With romance novels I seriously doubt many men at all are even trying to get into them. It's just not much of a cross-over interest, largely because they aren't visually stimulating. This is why we do see more female gamers asking for diversity and more opportunity, which is indeed healthy. Understanding why things happen though, such as why if 80~90% male developers are creating content it's going to largely cater to themselves, should be somewhat enlightening when backed up with science/reasoning. As I'll say below though, sometimes knowing why, on a deeper level, doesn't seem to be what some truly want. It's much easier just to try and reinforce your already made up opinion/belief with soundbites and sassy one-liners to expain what is undoubtedly a more complex reality.

This is why debate happens in such topics as this, as when people start throwing around pretty serious accusations and/or believing their worldview is 100% representative of the larger world, it can cause others to challenge them. It's not necessarily personal, it's challenging opinions/representation of facts. Or summed up in one word, debate. Everyone wants a debate, until a debate gets tricky/hits close to home/really challenges you, then it's not as comfortable or fun. Easier to just state anyone not sharing my opinion is my enemy/one of those in the other camp. It should be fun though, we exist to have our innermost feelings and beliefs constantly under threat to make sure we're always learning and growing.

Thanks for the response, I presume some wouldn't feel comfortable speaking as openly. As I mentioned earlier I think to try to get some wider scope research done into some of the questions I asked you would be interesting. A poll of a few hundred, if not thousands, would be enlightening. I don't have the ability or financial backing to do that properly, a survey on surveymonkey or something isn't as robust as a proper MSM gaming outlet or gaming stats think-tank doing it. Maybe I'll ask politely if Kotaku (Jason even) or if anywhere else would consider trying to do a well-thought out piece, with polling, of what male gamers are looking for in games when it comes to sexual stimulation (purely visual vs all the other considerations). My guess hypothesis is as I said earlier, as games routinely last 10~40+ hours, actually liking the character may well play a bigger role than some think, alongside their breasts, butt and tight clothing. Many love 2B and Bayonetta, but besides being sexy they are well fleshed out and pretty bad ass characters. Quiet, as much as she's the most polarizing of all, is still a bad ass character, from the point of view she's totally overpowered. Both in gameplay and through story-telling. I still think her story is pretty garbage, as is much of the storytelling in MGS5, but I can be honest and accept that she is a powerful character. People often state they want this kind of feedback, to try and explain why, but sometimes when it appears it may be more multi-faceted/complicated than "asshole disrespectful sexist male gamers" some aren't as interested in deeply exploring the hows and whys.

I'm not surprised you stacked things in order of importance at the end, as it's pretty "normal" that many while they enjoy fantasy, and all the craziness it can display due to dealing with make-believe, it still doesn't top real intimacy/real life. Even if real life isn't about having sex on top of a flying dragon in a world made of candy like something from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. When it comes down to it real life isn't just visual stimulation, it's touch and feelings sensitivity too. Feelings, something that I'm trying to propose can play more of a role in fantasy in games, if it can be proven male gamers do appreciate a fun/enjoyable/friendly character.... with the big breasts. At the end of the day, for most of us, the real "wish" is to find a partner we are best friends with... shocker, love. Most relationships that exist purely based on cosmetics/looks, often end up incredibly depressing/empty after any hooneymoon period. Couples that don't get along as friends either don't manage to stay together long-term, or they make each others lives miserable. Ironically, you do not have any of that issue with fantasy, as if it's either romance novels, or video games, or even porn, whoever is in it exists to satisfy and pleasure you without any of the baggage of real life. As you said though, while that may be stimulating to some extent, like a sex doll would be a subservient sex toy, you can't beat everything real life brings along with intimacy, friendship, feelings and of course not many people are going to stack masturbating/imiginary sex above actual sex.

Neat fact about the size, and significance, of the romance genre in fiction. I had no idea it was such a huge portion of the market. Now, on to your data from Quantic Foundry, because that is your smoking gun…

The size of that survey is impressive. However, while it does say what percentage of the claimed 270,000 participants were female (18.5%, or just under fifty thousand). What it doesn't indicate is the demographics of those women who were polled. So, what about the demographics…? Well, we know that those polled were self-selected. What was the average age of these participants? We have no idea. Quantic Foundry has indicated that they believe their data is more representative of "core gamers", primarily because their participants bothered to answer a survey titled Gamer Motivation Profile. I am not sure I am convinced by this argument. Especially since they received that majority of their participants through facebook, a haven for social games. Beyond this gripe (and I don't think it is a minor one), I don't necessarily doubt the quality of their data itself, as they are absolutely, impressively transparent. However, there are definitely lot of potential problems in the way you presented their data here. You conveniently skipped past where Quantic Foundry highlights how unstable some of this data is, as the ceiling for this data on these genres is not a hard one. Quantic Foundry even gives examples of how some games showed a dramatic divergence from its genre (Dragon Age: Inquisition had double the genre average of female players), showing some real instability in the data.

However, let us assume that the ceiling IS a hard one, that this data perfectly encapsulates the entire market… At what point is something vulgar enough that a company pandering to their supposed target demographic cannot justify its existence. If I am selling a hunting game, and I find that a large percentage of my target demographic is white, is it acceptable for me to include racist stereotypes of African-Americans? Would you defend such depictions with the same level of benevolent neutrality, Audio? Because at the end of the day, that is what we are talking about here.

I mean, there are a ton of other questions worth asking. Such as how stifling to growth among female gamers are these sexist designs… This point is even briefly touched on by Quantic Foundry when they talk about how "[l]ow female gamer participation in certain genres may be a historical artifact of how motivations and presentation have been bundled together and marketed". But that isn't something we have data on, and that isn't something Quantic Foundry can do anything but contemplate with its own data. But once again, this really shouldn't be a conversation about the composition of sales data, outside forces, or unknown variables. This is a conversation about women resenting culture as a whole treating them like garbage. Especially in our popular media. Especially in our video games.

I don't think a lot of people are going to engage with you. Primarily because you bury people in text, stifling the conversation. I don't have time to combat your essays with my own (not after this one, at least). However, I don't think you are the pillar of neutrality that you present yourself as.

Zephyrus · Nov 8, 2017

Aomame said:
That's not how power fantasies work; you don't fantasize about the men's bodies in the way you would women's bodies in a sexual fantasy. A male power fantasy appeals to what the man wants for himself, i.e. domination, power, control, represented in a mesomorphic body. The man does not necessarily find the hulking, muscular bodies sexually attractive, nor does he necessarily desire to have that body himself. But he is socially conditioned to believe he has that power or that he should gain it.

It's why nerdy, skinny teenage boys idolize buff video game heroes. Because these characters make those boys feel dominant. The point is that these characters are there for men, not for women. They are not sexualized the way women in games are.

Ok then. I've never fantasized about being in a big burly body where I image I have power, control and dominate others.

When I talked about not fantasizing about it, I wasn't talking about sexual attraction.

Women are also socially conditioned to believe they should be sexy too. Not seeing you make an argument about that.

Different people like different things.

This is irrelevant to the conversation, but I'm big, burly, I have a large chest and wide shoulders and I wish I was leaner. I'm constantly trying to starve myself so I don't look intimidating next to others.

I know you want to defend women and I do applaud that. Just don't treat men like a monolith in the process.

Deleted member 888 · Nov 8, 2017

spman2099 said:
Neat fact about the size, and significance, of the romance genre in fiction. I had no idea it was such a huge portion of the market. Now, onto your data from Quantic Foundry, because that is your smoking gun…

The size of that survey is impressive. However, while it does say what percentage of the claimed 270,000 participants were female (18.5%, or just under fifty thousand). What it doesn't indicate is the demographics of those women who were polled. So, what about the demographics…? Well, we know that those polled were self-selected. What was the average age of these participants? We have no idea. Quantic Foundry has indicated that they believe their data is more representative of "core gamers", primarily because their participants bothered to answer a survey titled Gamer Motivation Profile. I am not sure I am convinced by this argument. Especially since they received that majority of their participants through facebook, a haven for social games. Beyond this gripe (and I don't think it is a minor one), I don't necessarily doubt the quality of their data itself, as they are absolutely, impressively transparent. However, there are definitely lot of potential problems in the way you presented their data here. You conveniently skipped past where Quantic Foundry highlights how unstable some of this data is, as the ceiling for this data on these genres is not a hard one. Quantic Foundry even gives examples of how some games showed a dramatic divergence from its genre (Dragon Age: Inquisition had double the genre average of female players), showing some real instability in the data.

However, let us assume that the ceiling IS a hard one, that this data perfectly encapsulates an entire market… At what point is something vulgar enough that pandering to their target demographic cannot justify its existence. If I am selling a hunting game, and I find that a large percentage of my target demographic is white, is it acceptable for me to include racist stereotypes of African-Americans? Would you defend such depictions with the same level of benevolent neutrality, Audio? Because at the end of the day, that is what we are talking about here.

I mean, there are a ton of other questions worth asking. Such as how stifling to growth are these sexist designs… This point is even briefly touched on by Quantic Foundry when they talk about how "[l]ow female gamer participation in certain genres may be a historical artifact of how motivations and presentation have been bundled together and marketed". But that isn't something we have data on, and that isn't something Quantic Foundry can do anything but contemplate with its own data. But once again, this really shouldn't be a conversation about the composition of sales data, outside forces, or unknown variables. This is a conversation about women resenting culture as a whole treating them like garbage. Especially in our popular media. Especially in our video games.

I don't think a lot of people are going to engage with you. Primarily because you bury people in text, stifling the conversation. I don't have time to combat your essays with my own (not after this one, at least). However, I don't think you are the pillar of neutrality that you present yourself as.

This is patently ridiculous

If I am selling a hunting game, and I find that a large percentage of my target demographic is white, is it acceptable for me to include racist stereotypes of African-Americans? Would you defend such depictions with the same level of benevolent neutrality, Audio? Because at the end of the day, that is what we are talking about here.

We're not talking about that here at all.

I appreciate your input on the QF research, but I really can't be bothered engaging if you're just going to take low-effort snipes at me spending the time to write posts as them needing to be combatted. Please don't make this us vs them, as some often do. You disagree with me, respond and let me know, I'm not your enemy to be combatted. My posts are there for reading and debating, if you don't want to do that, don't do it. There's little need to tell me you don't want to respond to my posts. Just don't do it.

For what it is worth, I often find it pretty crazy how people who take the time to write a lot for critique and debate get told they're the ones stifling debate. What it really comes down to is you obviously disagree with me and don't like what I'm posting (nothing wrong with that in of itself), so to you that is stifling the ability for you to only read things you agree with. That's not how a forum should work. Everyone here is a member of a forum, you have to accept that will entail you constantly reading things that don't conform to your worldviews or opinions.

Cid · Nov 8, 2017

Dary said:
Quiet: what men want.
Snake: what men want to be.
It's all about what men want.

Is this really so hard a concept to grasp?

And why shouldn't Kojima make his game like that again?
He is a man. And maybe he wants to make games mainly for men?
Why shouldn't that be allowed?

All artists in all entertainmant forms are allowed to cater to whoever they want. Except Kojima somehow...

And at least 98% of the games I have played this generation have no women at all like Quiet in them.

spman2099 · Nov 8, 2017

Audioboxer said:
This is patently ridiculous

It is patently ridiculous about it, Audio? Care to explain? Is it patently ridiculous because it doesn't conform to your narrative?

Deleted member 888 · Nov 8, 2017

spman2099 said:
It is patently ridiculous about it, Audio? Care to explain? Is it patently ridiculous because it doesn't conform to your narrative?

We're not talking about racism. It's a low effort debate "trap card". Do better.

CannonFodder52 · Nov 8, 2017

Zephyrus said:
Ok then. I've never fantasized about being in a big burly body where I image I have power, control and dominate others.

When I talked about not fantasizing about it, I wasn't talking about sexual attraction.

Women are also socially conditioned to believe they should be sexy too. Not seeing you make an argument about that.

Different people like different things.

This is irrelevant to the conversation, but I'm big, burly, I have a large chest and wide shoulders and I wish I was leaner. I'm constantly trying to starve myself so I don't look intimidating next to others.

I know you want to defend women and I do applaud that. Just don't treat men like a monolith in the process.

The poster was talking about generally in society. It's not specifically about you, if you are an outlier.

spman2099 · Nov 8, 2017

Audioboxer said:
We're not talking about racism. It's a low effort "trap card". Do better.

We are talking about sexism, which isn't so dissimilar. It isn't a trap, it is an analogy. If any one of us needs to do better, you could definitely represent your sources better. You know, respect the facts and such.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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