I haven't seen Ciri's main outfit in a while, admittedly. I played with her Kaer Morhen alternative outfit, which is awesome.
Please explain then, why the women in this topic are being disregarded when they say that they are hurt by depictions of women in the video game sphere. Surely, those men should be listening to them? Since the women are speaking to them, the problem should now be solved?I do know originally a lot of the developers or gamers where males that were kind of 'rejects' of society. You were a geek or loser in the past as it wasn't as mainstream. I saw and have read some articles and it seems a lot of those design came from the era and glorification of scifi/fantasy females that used that style. I think to Heavy Metal and stuff like that.
Gaming has become totally mainstream, but those "rejects" are still there and it is still their thing/hobby first as they were there first.
I guess a lot of it has been because of missed conversations. I saw female critics actively attacking those guys in the past because of the design instead of having a conversation and maybe understanding where it came from.
So my conclusion is that a lack of a real conversation that should've started a long time ago has led to this behavior from gamers. Both sides have valid points, they just needed to speak about them.
Yet, all the women in this topic have said otherwise. From where does your opinion come? It does not appear to be from listening to women, who say they are put off by sexualization (and not sexuality, it seems that you are not understanding the difference).I don't believe reducing sexuality is the solution. It's like saying women can't enjoy beer because of the bent over blonde girl in the Budweiser commercial.
Off topic.Oh thanks, so Sniper Elite 4 on PS4 I see, came out this year, I'll have a look
I must say though, all this killing, especially sniping, is really violent
Shouldn't we also be more offended about ourselfs that we kill people all the time in so many games?
I dont know
Anyway, thanks for the tip
I never heard my girlfriend complain about all that stuff in Game of Thrones either
It's not about you. Of course many girls game.
It's about the 40%
That's really a lot. These girls should be everywhere. I should have statistically stumbled upon them a 100 times more often.
Where are they hiding!?!?!
I want to date a girl that really loves games. Just to see how it is. Maybe a girl that even likes jrpgs....
Maybe some day....
Lol
Yea you're right man
So Rayne, if you ever are in Holland, send me a message and maybe we can have a drink in Amsterdam :-)
I'm referring specifically to TW3. NPC townswomen are all moderately dressed, unless its the brothel. I never bothered to play the first two, and read the books instead.
Which are problematic in their own right, but I digress.
I'm only referring to TW3. It was incredibly distracting and I'm not talking about being in a brothel. If I have time, I'll boot the game up and take screens of what I'm talking about.I'm referring specifically to TW3. NPC townswomen are all moderately dressed, unless its the brothel. I never bothered to play the first two, and read the books instead.
Which are problematic in their own right, but I digress.
I must say though, all this killing, especially sniping, is really violent
Shouldn't we also be more offended about ourselfs that we kill people all the time in so many games?
I dont know
I had this problem with Cortana until I spoke with people involved with Halo development at a party.
My problem was that they made her more and more slutty every time, and that it was degrading to women. But apparently this was done because Cortana has romantic feelings for Master Chief which become stronger each time which is why she becomes more slutty in every title as well. She thinks that is what the Master Chief likes. From that perspective it is her own decision to want to please the Master Chief.
I still think she is dressed inappropriate, but at least it has real meaning behind it.
did you forget these gems:
unless you make a habit of creepily soliciting women online whilst being taken, come up with a better counterpoint than your non-existent girlfriend
I haven't seen Ciri's main outfit in a while, admittedly. I played with her Kaer Morhen alternative outfit, which is awesome.
Makeup is not the same as a sexually gratifying outfit, though. I don't really see how that has anything to do with the topic.That's some seriously ridiculous eyeshadow. Looks to me like she's got makeup on in her design, at least from main images of the game and gameplay images. It's stuff like that that takes me out of a game (aside from the stuff I already mentioned). Men aren't wearing makeup.. I don't get why anyone in this time period would, unless they're preparing for a formal event or something.
I'm only referring to TW3. It was incredibly distracting and I'm not talking about being in a brothel. If I have time, I'll boot the game up and take screens of what I'm talking about.
But isn't he right that if it's sexualisation that pushes women away that the switch should have a much higher female player ratio? Most games featured on that platform a very tame when it comes to anything sexual and yet it doesn't seem to pay off.You can copy your same post twice it won't make it less of a mansplaining bullshit about what makes women not welcomed in gaming.
If you want to truly know why women are not involved in gaming listen to them.
I had this problem with Cortana until I spoke with people involved with Halo development at a party.
My problem was that they made her more and more slutty every time, and that it was degrading to women. But apparently this was done because Cortana has romantic feelings for Master Chief which become stronger each time which is why she becomes more slutty in every title as well. She thinks that is what the Master Chief likes. From that perspective it is her own decision to want to please the Master Chief.
I still think she is dressed inappropriate, but at least it has real meaning behind it.
Makeup is not the same as a sexually gratifying outfit, though. I don't really see how that has anything to do with the topic.
If you design a good character you'll make it appear as if they have their own agency by making those decisions consistent with their character. You'd never get anywhere analyzing a book if you just argue that the author wanted to write it this way.This made me laugh out loud. Sounds like whoever was telling you this was feeding you arbitrary nonsense to excuse the demand from executives and marketers to sexualize Cortana to increase sales from horny straight men. Cortana doesn't have her own agency, it's what the character designers and writers and most importantly the people in charge of the product who decide how the character is supposed to look.
This is why I avoided this thread. I just don't have the energy to engage these buffoons.
I don't either. :( Just reading the responses is so disheartening. Sometimes I feel like men would rather talk to each other about what women think than actually listen to any of us.
Put me down as someone agreeing with what MaskedNdi said.Also, I'm fairly certain we're all considered fringe forum feminists, even though we are actually perfectly normal people.
I often feel like both women and men are trying to speak for me so I just don't even bother posting in those threads. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I saw enough of those on the other site to know how they go.
Yeah. I went in there with big intentions but after reading just a page, I just couldn't deal with it and left. So exhausting. Turns out I just don't have the spoons for it anymore.
I did not realize this thread was a thing until I saw it mentioned in the other thread (I just can't engage with threads like that anymore, takes too much out of me.)
Why WOMEN criticize sexualised character design? <--- I thought this is a good self-explanatory thread title about why (some) women have issues with certain aspects of the rampant female figures sexualization in our media contents
Holy socks, how wrong was I
:|
If you notice, all the women have ditched the thread for the most part. Happens all the time, unfortunately.
I do dislike those threads and avoid them since they're so exhausting.
I definitely hold the same thoughts as others in that it is just detrimental to my mental health to discuss it. It's just an endless circle of non-empathetic men shouting their biased opinions as to where they do not have the nerve to accept that they might be wrong.
I also tend to avoid posting in threads like that. They're always filled with guys trying to shut down the women talking about their issues with female representation in games while using other women as a shield. That thread is no different.
I'm sorry you're basically left on your own there. I did go through and read your posts though and mostly agree with you.
It's awful in there. I just went in, read a couple of posts and it's a depressing mess. And it's obvious there's no point in even engaging at all when I see the souls who are still willing to get in there being burdened with proving that sexual objectification is even problematic.
I'm pretty well convinced that the majority of men arguing against our interests are guys whose IRL prospects with women have been bad, and I don't think you can override that with internet interactions, but it's worth a shot.
But yeah, I really can't be bothered with those types of threads. Most people do not want to hear minority's opinions. It's very selfish.
It might be a while as I think that game is pretty huge and I'll have to install it. But I'll try to get around to it as soon as possibleDo it, please. I can't do the same at the moment and I'm having a really hard time remembering what you are referring to.
But apparently this was done because Cortana has romantic feelings for Master Chief which become stronger each time which is why she becomes more slutty in every title as well. She thinks that is what the Master Chief likes. From that perspective it is her own decision to want to please the Master Chief.
You are using a graph that specifies the "most interested in purchasing a switch household member" to assume the player base of actual games. This shows a poor understanding of reading statistics - the graph shows nothing about who then PLAYS the system once it exists in a household. Also, the hardware is less than a year out, and hasn't been through the major holiday retail season, so any data must be quantified as showing only early adopters at this point.But isn't he right that if it's sexualisation that pushes women away that the switch should have a much higher female player ratio? Most games featured on that platform a very tame when it comes to anything sexual and yet it doesn't seem to pay off.
Unless you have a survey on why women aren't buying the switch it's open to debate the causes.
Oh wow I missed this. Well, there we have immediate proof of dishonest trolling. He's taking a break from ERA for a while.did you forget these gems:
unless you make a habit of creepily soliciting women online whilst being taken, come up with a better counterpoint than your non-existent girlfriend
It might be a while as I think that game is pretty huge and I'll have to install it. But I'll try to get around to it as soon as possible
I think it's a little bit different in this case because of the source material. I see where you're coming from, but for example, Yen is a total drama queen in the books. She likes the frilly things, and does Ciri's makeup for her, and likes smelling nice and dressing in nice clothes. It's really not abnormal in the world of the game or the lore for them to wear makeup. By contrast, poor women on farms don't wear it, because they can't afford the luxury. You can see the difference in game. It's a very prevalent topic in the books, and it kind of makes sense in the game.My point is that it seems to fit into the entire theme of "lots of women are in this game for the pleasure of player", and throwing makeup on a female character simply for the sake of making them look "prettier" fits in with that theme. Instead of portraying characters in a more realistic way for that time period, for that context. Men don't have makeup/eyeshadow on, from what I can see. And that's probably because they're not being included for the sake of being attractive or desirable, which was the impression I got when I played TW3 in regard to the women I saw, just walking around in town.
But isn't he right that if it's sexualisation that pushes women away that the switch should have a much higher female player ratio? Most games featured on that platform a very tame when it comes to anything sexual and yet it doesn't seem to pay off.
Unless you have a survey on why women aren't buying the switch it's open to debate the causes.
For years, Nintendo's video game platforms have had an almost equal split between male and female consumers but, probably with such a background, the male-female user composition for the Nintendo 3DS at this point in time must be about 6 to 4 in favor of male users. Of course, there are a large number of female users of the product, but the ratio is more male-favored at present.
Comparing the Nintendo 3DS's current 19 million units sold after four years in Japan to the Nintendo DS's total 30 million, Iwata noted that while the gender ratio of Nintendo consumers during the DS/Wii era was about 1:1, that ratio has shifted in favor of male gamers during the 3DS era. The lack of female players could explain the discrepancy in total units sold.
"What I find interesting is that the 3DS core users consist of 69% male and 31% female, but when I look at the numbers of people that bought Animal Crossing: New Leaf and the 3DS handheld together recently, I see 44% male and 56% female users. It's quite an astonishing figure."
As to the third point I don't really get why it would be not sexist to depict a sexualised woman in the porn game, but put them in a different scenario and it suddenly it is.
This made me laugh out loud. Sounds like whoever was telling you this was feeding you arbitrary nonsense to excuse the demand from executives and marketers to sexualize Cortana to increase sales from horny straight men. Cortana doesn't have her own agency, it's what the character designers and writers and most importantly the people in charge of the product who decide how the character is supposed to look.
If there is a relevant explanation as to WHY she wears makeup that exists in the story, then I concede. I didn't know that. But if it just randomly exists on women and not men, especially coupled with some of the shit that I've PERSONALLY experienced in the game itself (ie shots that linger on a woman's ass while she's leaning in a sexualized position, coming on to the player who literally just walked through the door), then I think it's a problem in that the creators feel like they NEED to put makeup on women for the sake of making them more attractive for male players. If there's more information that I'm missing out of the story that provides a decent explanation for why Ciri and other women wear makeup, then I apologize for not having all of the context.I think it's a little bit different in this case because of the source material. I see where you're coming from, but for example, Yen is a total drama queen in the books. She likes the frilly things, and does Ciri's makeup for her, and likes smelling nice and dressing in nice clothes. It's really not abnormal in the world of the game or the lore for them to wear makeup. By contrast, poor women on farms don't wear it, because they can't afford the luxury. You can see the difference in game. It's a very prevalent topic in the books, and it kind of makes sense in the game.
It's also different because makeup doesn't showcase tits and ass, and it's not revealing in regards to the female anatomy. It doesn't make a woman a sex object, if that makes sense.
Makeup, also, isn't done for the pleasure of men. Usually. I mean, some women do it, for sure. I don't do it for men. I do it because I like looking nice.
In Cid's defence i think context might matter a lot for those posts, Cid said they were in lighthearted back and forths when they were made - at least the latter one about a drink.Oh wow I missed this. Well, there we have immediate proof of dishonest trolling. He's taking a break from ERA for a while.
How often do you notice men wearing makeup in real life? Why should it be different in TW3?If there is a relevant explanation as to WHY she wears makeup that exists in the story, then I concede. I didn't know that. But if it just randomly exists on women and not men, especially coupled with some of the shit that I've PERSONALLY in the game itself (ie shots that linger on a woman's ass while she's leaning in a sexualized position, coming on to the player who literally just walked through the door), then I think it's a problem in that the creators feel like they NEED to put makeup on women for the sake of making them more attractive for male players. If there's more information that I'm missing out of the story that provides a decent explanation for why Ciri and other women wear makeup, then I apologize for not having all of the context.
I didn't mean to assert that makeup exists, in all context, to please men. That was not at all my intention. I was referring to the context of TW3, which I may not have all the context for.
But like I said, there were multiple camera angles and blatantly sexualized moments that turned me away from the game. I will do my best to find them as this was a couple years ago.
This really needs more visibility.For those thinking "only a few internet radical feminists have a problem with this", well, not only this is not true as we can see with the multiple women talking about this here and largely agreeing on major points, but here are some voices from women left unheard simply because defending these ideas are too exhausting, annoying, or frustrating for them (posted these quotes from the REgals OT with their permission):
Because the context of living in the specific time period in TW3 and real life are far different, unless we're talking about wealthier people who can afford the resources and time to do it.How often do you notice men wearing makeup in real life? Why should it be different in TW3?
If there is a relevant explanation as to WHY she wears makeup that exists in the story, then I concede. I didn't know that. But if it just randomly exists on women and not men, especially coupled with some of the shit that I've PERSONALLY experienced in the game itself (ie shots that linger on a woman's ass while she's leaning in a sexualized position, coming on to the player who literally just walked through the door), then I think it's a problem in that the creators feel like they NEED to put makeup on women for the sake of making them more attractive for male players. If there's more information that I'm missing out of the story that provides a decent explanation for why Ciri and other women wear makeup, then I apologize for not having all of the context.
I didn't mean to assert that makeup exists, in all context, to please men. That was not at all my intention. I was referring to the context of TW3, which I may not have all the context for.
But like I said, there were multiple camera angles and blatantly sexualized moments that turned me away from the game. I will do my best to find them as this was a couple years ago. And this isn't some new phenomenon for this developer. This shit has existed since TW1, which had even more instances and far more blatant than what we see in the third title.
Porn games are not released from the accusation of sexism; however they are also not the target of this particular discussion, which is regarding games that are allegedly NOT porn games, yet include similar problematic content.As to the third point I don't really get why it would be not sexist to depict a sexualised woman in the porn game, but put them in a different scenario and it suddenly it is. I don't see it as sexist to include titillation in entertainment outside of porn in that way at all. Why should it be? Why can't titillation just be another tool a director uses to make someone enjoy a product? Why do people think that it causes men to see women only as sex objects? Is it so hard to believe that people can be valued for their beauty AND respected for other aspects of their personality? That men can appreciate the titillation aspect of a character while respecting her personality / story / abilities etc. That all of that can coexist? Or that men can separate such fanservice in entertainment from the very real and three dimensional women they meet every day?
No, there is not. Censorship is when a government, by law, forces content or lack of it. Creators self adjusting due to moral criticism is in fact following market forces, or could also be a creator self adjusting because of their personal beliefs shifting.So there's a fine line between that kind of moral criticism and censorship.
Yes, the women posting here have expressed how harmful it is to be suddenly confronted with sexualized content when it is out of place. Ergo, it is harmful.But is it really harmful to real women to put sexualised designs in a game to please male fans? Is it harmful to make a game that occasionally caters to those fans and their sexuality? When I look at it from this angle I can't see the issue, I can't see anything worthy of that kind of moral judgement. I can't attach any of the issues with the designs to issues women face in the real world.
Like I said, if I have the time to install the game and run through the intro, I'll return with screens/context.I really don't know what scene(s) you're talking about. I've played the game numerous times and the only one I can think of is the intro scene with Yen and Geralt. Which, yes, I'm not a big fan of.
For those thinking "only a few internet radical feminists have a problem with this", well, not only this is not true as we can see with the multiple women talking about this here and largely agreeing on major points, but here are some voices from women left unheard simply because defending these ideas are too exhausting, annoying, or frustrating for them (posted these quotes from the REgals OT with their permission):
Because the context of living in the specific time period in TW3 and real life are far different, unless we're talking about wealthier people who can afford the resources and time to do it.
For those thinking "only a few internet radical feminists have a problem with this", well, not only this is not true as we can see with the multiple women talking about this here and largely agreeing on major points, but here are some voices from women left unheard simply because defending these ideas are too exhausting, annoying, or frustrating for them (posted these quotes from the REgals OT with their permission):
Early Adopters of most new tech invariably skews towards men. I suspect it's ownership will even out a bit due to Animal Crossing etc in time, but at the moment the main visable demographic is going to be 'early adopters'. It'll be an interesting stat in time but at the moment I don't think it's particularly relevant here.But isn't he right that if it's sexualisation that pushes women away that the switch should have a much higher female player ratio? Most games featured on that platform a very tame when it comes to anything sexual and yet it doesn't seem to pay off.
Unless you have a survey on why women aren't buying the switch it's open to debate the causes.
Your inability to understand the problem doesn't negate it's existence. Consider the position of privilege you speak from wherein these things you question don't exist for you because you are not on the receiving end of their toxicity.But is it really harmful to real women to put sexualised designs in a game to please male fans? Is it harmful to make a game that occasionally caters to those fans and their sexuality? When I look at it from this angle I can't see the issue, I can't see anything worthy of that kind of moral judgement. I can't attach any of the issues with the designs to issues women face in the real world.
WhatDoes the context of tw3 support equal makeup usage between genders?
https://youtu.be/6O8qgBuWDbk?t=535 (nsfw)Like I said, if I have the time to install the game and run through the intro, I'll return with screens/context.
But I don't really see how that would lead to men wearing makeup. That has to do with beauty ideals and not accessibility.Because the context of living in the specific time period in TW3 and real life are far different, unless we're talking about wealthier people who can afford the resources and time to do it.
Hmmm. "What do women think men need?"
That would be...interesting.
Thanks Morrigan.
Throughout your post you're ignoring the other side of the coin - that men AREN'T being sexualised when women are.
Eg Quiet would be fine if, say, she had an equally sexy twin who equally tried to woo Snake. But she doesn't and such things never happen - it's only ever women, and basically only ever "giving" themselves to the player.
And yes, you could say it's the sexualisation of men that's harmful - in that it doesn't happen, creating an unbalance.
High heels is the oddest choice design wise. The core concept of Ciri is that her outfit is rough and almost borderline hapharzardly together to reflect her travels and history as a former bandit as well as some hints that she's also former royalty. No idea why they decided to add high heels when she's constantly on the run.Can't really comment on the rest, but Ciri is a supposed hardened warrior who wears high heel, a corset, and has her bra visible. They just can't help themselves.
Dragon Age's entire existence kinda flies directly in the face of this logic. As it's near 50:50 split player base is most assuredly a direct result of them catering to so many types of people.Right, but you won't get sexualisation of both genders in the same game because people have no interest in seeing the sex they're not attracted to sexualised. You're either doing the sexualisation for people who like guys or people who like girls, you can't really do both and please everyone, you know? If a game was full of sexualised men in situations I couldn't avoid, I wouldn't buy it. That simple. I'd have no problem with it - and would love to see games like that out there for gays and women! - but it wouldn't interest me.
And I think even if you did have the twin (male) Quiet, that people would still have tons of issues with the female one, frankly. I'm not sure you're right about that.
This really isn't about the sexualisation of men, though - I've barely seen that topic in this conversation. It's about whether the sexualisation of women in games is acceptable or sexist, surely.
And if we DO start talking about the lack of sexualisation of men and the 'gap' between the level of that (not much) and the level of it with women (tons of it), we need to start talking about stuff like what actually sells to men and women. I have no doubt that women are very visual, sexually, like men are, but I DO doubt that they buy products en masse based on attractive male character designs to the extent that men do and I suspect that's a huge reason we don't see more games with male sexualisation. We also need to talk about the fact that it seems very easy for a group of men to say what a sexualised woman is but getting a group of women to agree what a sexualised male character is seems much harder and more subjective. People denying that Gladio is a sexualised character design, for example, shock me (even if the camera doesn't treat him like a woman).