Why do you keep citing peace treaties of North Korea and the U.S.?October 2015: North Korea willing to sign peace treaty with US to end conflict.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...o-end-conflict-with-us-with-peace-treaty.html
Can some of you see how those of us who followed this stuff or lived it in the past are so annoyed by people who think this is all new?
October 2002: North Korea seeks non-aggression pact with US
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/north-korea-seeks-non-aggression-pact-with-us-1.443402
They lie again and again and again hoping to ensnare a new generation of people who have forgotten the last time.
damn this thread reads like the_donald in reverse. straight conspiracy theories. fuck trump, but if he helped make this happen, then mad props to him.
damn this thread reads like the_donald in reverse. straight conspiracy theories. fuck trump, but if he helped make this happen, then mad props to him.
True. I hope both happen because world peace is awesome.. but crooks still need to serve time.
How did he make this happen? Use a reason other than "because Moon said so".
How did he make this happen? Use a reason other than "because Moon said so".
Why do you keep citing peace treaties of North Korea and the U.S.?
Are you purposely being dense here or did you think no one would click your links? Peace treaties between NK and the U.S. flopping, like the ones you linked, are not equivalent to NK and SK officially ending their six decade long war. The latter is of far more importance . That's why you can't find relevant links -- it's unprecedented and hasn't been offered before.Because finding articles from the past is difficult with all the new articles about NK popping up routinely. The point is, these proposals have been on the table before.
Because he's taken a far harder stance rhetoric wise than the previous administration.
This guy was threatening military action via twitter.
He also comes across as far more unpredictable than prior generations.
I'm not saying he's a bastion of world peace, but I don't know it anyone could honeslty say they weren't surprised at how this has gone recently.
Maybe, just maybe, it's worked!
Trump's pick for Secretary of State just traveled to NK to meet Kim Jong Un a couple weeks ago.
I don't want to admit this, but Trump for all this brazen stupidity has somehow pulled this off.
I remain unconvinced. There's no real through line to this.
1. KJU threatens nuclear action
2. Trump goes apeshit
???
4. KJU is willing to talk.
The "???" is where I'm getting at. While everyone simply says "look Trump acted like a maniac and that seems to have magically changed KJU's entire stance!", there's very little analysis into how this is actually being put together. KJU didn't literally wake up one day thinking "you know maybe this entire thing that my father was doing and I was doing isn't really the way to go, let's just do a 180".
It is mostly unexplained. For seemingly a lot of people, that's just a pesky detail that we not need to be bothered with. For myself, that's kind of a big "detail" to just gloss over.
And that was an extremely terrible move on Trump's part to put Pompeo on a plane to conduct Secretary of State duties while not being Secretary of State. If anything it should give you LESS confidence that this will go over well.
"Somehow" is just not good enough for me, not for something that is this tectonic. Too many "ifs", too many handwavy explanations, too much shrugging, too much "dunno how this is gonna work but if it works then great!" That's not how you successfully negotiate something this monumental and delicate.
I remain unconvinced. There's no real through line to this.
1. KJU threatens nuclear action
2. Trump goes apeshit
???
4. KJU is willing to talk.
The "???" is where I'm getting at. While everyone simply says "look Trump acted like a maniac and that seems to have magically changed KJU's entire stance!", there's very little analysis into how this is actually being put together. KJU didn't literally wake up one day thinking "you know maybe this entire thing that my father was doing and I was doing isn't really the way to go, let's just do a 180".
It is mostly unexplained. For seemingly a lot of people, that's just a pesky detail that we not need to be bothered with. For myself, that's kind of a big "detail" to just gloss over.
And that was an extremely terrible move on Trump's part to put Pompeo on a plane to conduct Secretary of State duties while not being Secretary of State. If anything it should give you LESS confidence that this will go over well.
"Somehow" is just not good enough for me, not for something that is this tectonic. Too many "ifs", too many handwavy explanations, too much shrugging, too much "dunno how this is gonna work but if it works then great!" That's not how you successfully negotiate something this monumental and delicate.
Props to him for being a crazy mentally unstable piece of human feces, and so awful and crazy that he scares Kim? Yeah wow, that's our leader!!Because he's taken a far harder stance rhetoric wise than the previous administration.
This guy was threatening military action via twitter.
He also comes across as far more unpredictable than prior generations.
I'm not saying he's a bastion of world peace, but I don't know it anyone could honeslty say they weren't surprised at how this has gone recently.
Maybe, just maybe, it's worked!
Are you purposely being dense here or did you think no one would click your links? Peace treaties between NK and the U.S. flopping, like the ones you linked, are not equivalent to NK and SK officially ending their six decade long war. The latter is of far more importance . That's why you can't find relevant links -- it's unprecedented and hasn't been offered before.
North Korea has been pushing for a formal end to the war for quite some time. There is a logic to this. If a peace treaty is concluded, it will become somewhat easier for North Korea to lobby for the withdrawal of U.S. forces from the Korean Peninsula. Additionally, a treaty would, in the eyes of the North Korean state at least, confer upon them more legitimacy, as well as making it more likely that they will eventually be recognized as a de facto nuclear power.
This rather transparently hidden agenda may be one of the reasons why neither the U.S. nor South Korea is particularly enthusiastic about a peace treaty. This not, however, the only reason why it will be difficult to get a peace treaty signed.
I refuse to believe that you all think posturing and threatening on Twitter has NK on the ropes. This isn't a beef between two Youtubers, this is geopolitics.
Props to him for being a crazy mentally unstable piece of human feces, and so awful and crazy that he scares Kim? Yeah wow, that's our leader!!
October 2015: North Korea willing to sign peace treaty with US to end conflict.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...o-end-conflict-with-us-with-peace-treaty.html
Can some of you see how those of us who followed this stuff or lived it in the past are so annoyed by people who think this is all new?
October 2002: North Korea seeks non-aggression pact with US
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/north-korea-seeks-non-aggression-pact-with-us-1.443402
They lie again and again and again hoping to ensnare a new generation of people who have forgotten the last time.
The US and South Korea have called their bluff literally every single time for the last 7 decades. This is not new. Sure we didn't threaten a counter nuclear launching but what do you think the army and scores of military bases we have positioned there are for? To look pretty?It doesn't seem that unexplained to me. They've had decades of sabre rattling and now someone has seemingly called their bluff.
I'm not going to be overly naive and say its all down to that (I'm sure there are other pressures) but Trump's posturing has gone beyond previous statements.
Both of those links have North Korea saying they're going to maintain their nuclear arsenal.
Never, ever has North Korea signalled a willingness to do a combination of all of the things they are signaling now. Never. This is historic.
It's ok to dislike someone, like Trump, and still have the maturity and ability to give them credit when their actions have positive results.
I suspect Trump has offered them a lot of money and god knows what else, but I don't care. Whatever shuts down their arsenal. IF he pulls this off, he deserves as much praise and applause for it as he does hate and vitriol for the terrible things he does.
That's how reasoned adults measure and react to things. The world, and all human beings are not black/white, good/evil. There is nuance. Shades of gray. And the wisest of the wise paint with many, many colors.
None of that is anywhere near the level of what's happening right now -- they're having actual talks and the President of South Korea has made statements that it's happening. You just linked an opinion piece, one that requires a subscription to read to boot. "North Korea has been pushing for a formal end to the war" ... come on, man.Are you fucking dense? The articles clearly state they're talking about the conflict in the Korean peninsula. The US and SK are basically synonymous since neither would sign a treaty without the agreement of the other. Here's another article for you to read.
https://www.nknews.org/2013/10/the-problem-with-a-korean-peace-treaty/
Nailed it.Never, ever has North Korea signalled a willingness to do a combination of all of the things they are signaling now. Never. This is historic.
None of that is anywhere near the level of what's happening right now -- they're having actual talks and the President of South Korea has made statements that it's happening. You just linked an opinion piece, one that requires a subscription to read to boot. "North Korea has been pushing for a formal end to the war" ... come on, man.
Considering that we were all fearing war a few months back during the Guam situation, I'll take this over that.
If it works, it works.
The South Korean govt and the UN and US have all negotiated and had direct talks with the North Korean regime before. A sit down of the two leaders for PR purposes doesn't remove the decades of negotiations and counter negotiations during the famine.None of that is anywhere near the level of what's happening right now -- they're having actual talks and the President of South Korea has made statements that it's happening. You just linked an opinion piece, one that requires a subscription to read to boot. "North Korea has been pushing for a formal end to the war" ... come on, man.
I mean, that goes without saying. Lying about all of this, though, would be an enormous mistake for NK.All I said was that they've routinely lied in order to get what they want. Which warrants extreme suspicion. Is that wrong?
More so then the dozens of other times they have lied to get what they want?I mean, that goes without saying. Lying about all of this, though, would be an enormous mistake for NK.
I mean, that goes without saying. Lying about all of this, though, would be an enormous mistake for NK.
Have they had talks at this level? Care to provide a link? With the combination of all of these things like denuclearization and no more missile testing? And with the SK President making firm statements like this before signaling a probably end to the Korean war? I don't think so.The South Korean govt and the UN and US have all negotiated and had direct talks with the North Korean regime before. A sit down of the two leaders for PR purposes doesn't remove the decades of negotiations and counter negotiations during the famine.
More so then the dozens of other times they have lied to get what they want?
As it's been pointed out several times, this is a different situation with the stakes raised to unprecedented levels. You're being disingenuous if you can't see that.Oh it would be? Like the past 30 years where they've gotten billions in aid and still progressed their nuclear program to where it is today?
Almost as if they're lying as they always are and not getting rid of their nuclear arsenal they built up for decades.Both of those links have North Korea saying they're going to maintain their nuclear arsenal.
Never, ever has North Korea signalled a willingness to do a combination of all of the things they are signaling now. Never. This is historic.
It's ok to dislike someone, like Trump, and still have the maturity and ability to give them credit when their actions have positive results.
I suspect Trump has offered them a lot of money and god knows what else, but I don't care. Whatever shuts down their arsenal. IF he pulls this off, he deserves as much praise and applause for it as he does hate and vitriol for the terrible things he does.
That's how reasoned adults measure and react to things. The world, and all human beings are not black/white, good/evil. There is nuance. Shades of gray. And the wisest of the wise paint with many, many colors.
Well put I must agree with thisBoth of those links have North Korea saying they're going to maintain their nuclear arsenal.
Never, ever has North Korea signalled a willingness to do a combination of all of the things they are signaling now. Never. This is historic.
It's ok to dislike someone, like Trump, and still have the maturity and ability to give them credit when their actions have positive results.
I suspect Trump has offered them a lot of money and god knows what else, but I don't care. Whatever shuts down their arsenal. IF he pulls this off, he deserves as much praise and applause for it as he does hate and vitriol for the terrible things he does.
That's how reasoned adults measure and react to things. The world, and all human beings are not black/white, good/evil. There is nuance. Shades of gray. And the wisest of the wise paint with many, many colors.
What exactly are the consequences for NK if their lie gets caught? They're already being sanctioned to hell. They have nothing to lose here.As it's been pointed out several times, this is a different situation with the stakes raised to unprecedented levels. You're being disingenuous if you can't see that.
It doesn't seem that unexplained to me. They've had decades of sabre rattling and now someone has seemingly called their bluff.
I'm not going to be overly naive and say its all down to that (I'm sure there are other pressures) but Trump's posturing has gone beyond previous statements.
I'm not disagreeing with you here, but honestly we're just a couple of schmucks on a forum trying to figure out international diplomacy for an exceptionally delicate matter.
At this point I'd be amazed if this all went off without it being a colossal disaster, but if it does credit has to be given where credit is due. Even if it's due to a living cartoon character.
They have another tunnel they can use and it's been (or was) under preparation. It wasn't catastrophic based on the analysis and activity there. It's because of the tensions and the summit, and it's temporary.I might be looking at it from a different angle but just how rough was that mountain collapse back in October? Could that have been so catastrophic that it forced Kim Jong Un to do a 180?
They're making sure that they're on their best behavior for the summit, easing tensions for a while, and they're trying to court trump to convince him of a more long-term denuclearization process instead of what the Trump administration have been pushing for; that will be impossible to enforce and enough time will have passed before the US feels it can do anything by the time they realize it's a stalling tactic. Deterrence prevails, they keep their nukes, and they finally have the US president face to face for the first time.
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchronHave they had talks at this level? Care to provide a link? With the combination of all of these things like denuclearization and no more missile testing? And with the SK President making firm statements like this before? I don't think so.
Almost as if they're lying as they always are and not getting rid of their nuclear arsenal they built up for decades.
And I love how you decry nobody giving Trump credit but immediately admit that you have no idea what he's done with your "money and god knows what else" line.
Great reasoning thereI don't know exactly how he's accomplished this, but he's clearly played a part
As I'm not an American, no I don't think I would rush to give credit to a president who is a diplomatic disaster and done nothing to accomplish this, even if they were "my president of choice".Are you cynical about EVERYTHING or only when it fits your agenda? If these same things were happening and your choice of president were in office, I am confident you would be optimistic about these developments. While it's certainly fair to reserve caution here, outright dismissing it as total bullshit or saying Trump played no part is asinine.
No. Look at that thicc red tieIt's 'thighs' man, your one means using rope to incapacitate something/someone or an object.