Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

RpgN · Apr 25, 2018

Dice said:
Replaying some Zelda at the moment and I want to give a tip of the hat to Twilight Princess successfully pulling off tasteful artistic nudity in this game's version of the Great Fairy . It was different, innocuous, and a elegant take on the series's fun and changing fairy concept. The design isn't sexualized in-game and uses some gorgeous colouring and effects.

Huh, you seem to be right. Despite the fact me loving Zelda games, the fairies always bothered me with the ones I played. Not necessarily because they show skin but how flirty and moany they are. Even BOTW has this while it is trying to be more cartoony about it. I like the TP one the most even when it is the naked one.

Ah...I need to play the game...I still need to play the following Zelda games:

-MM
-GBC games
-Minish Cap
-DS games
-TP
-Skyward Sword
-Some spinoffs

I finished Zelda I & II, ALTTP, LA GBC, OOT twice (GC and 3DS versions), TWW, Crossbow Training, Hyrule Warriors Legends and have played around 140 hours of BoTW.

King of FeatherCoin said:
Now, what do ya'll think of the Octopath Traveler box art? It's quite beautiful imo

It is quite beautiful and close to perfection. If I want to be a little picky, then I don't like that Primrose has the T&A shot but I can overlook it since she is center and the rest is so good.

Dmax3901 · Apr 25, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
The fuck.

I've played this game multiple times, I didn't even know she existed, lol.

Yeah wth I don't remember that either.

EDIT: Oh she's in the Cave of Ordeals which I definitely did so I guess I just completely forgot about her.

Choppasmith · Apr 25, 2018

OhSatan said:

The outfit would be so much better if they just decided to give her a shirt underneath, but NOPE gotta appeal to the sideboob crowd.

As a fan, it bugs that they COULD'VE gone the Mario Odyssey route and have outfits based on old promo work or in game shots that make you go "Oh wow THAT outfit!". Mai for example:

But no. I have to say, I'm still getting the game as the gameplay itself looks fun. But man, if my optimism isn't fading fast. Which reminds me, I need to post this in the "Monkey Paw games" thread as this really fits the bill.

Dice said:
Replaying some Zelda at the moment and I want to give a tip of the hat to Twilight Princess successfully pulling off tasteful artistic nudity in this game's version of the Great Fairy . It was different, innocuous, and a elegant take on the series's fun and changing fairy concept. The design isn't sexualized in-game and uses some gorgeous colouring and effects.

34:47 if timestamp sucks

I remember just being floored that Nintendo would go that far with nudity. Looking back and thinking about it, yeah, it was kind of nice as a change of pace compared to the whole sexually promiscuous fairies with all the flirting, giggling, and moaning.

RpgN said:
It is quite beautiful and close to perfection. If I want to be a little picky, then I don't like that Primrose has the T&A shot but I can overlook it since she is center and the rest is so good.

I have to imagine the designers were like "Okay, make it eyecatching for the players who like sexy, but not TOOO Sexy that it drives other players away..." I think it looks nice though.

esserius · Apr 27, 2018

I'm not a fan of Primrose but at least it fits her character (not that it's saying much aside from just T&A - I think a dancer in plainclothes would be far more interesting, simply because it's going against lazy tropes).

That said, the actual game's visuals are a really odd mish-mash. Maybe it looks better in motion but the stills are really strange visually. Like, you have these hyper modern looking menus, fantasy sprites, and medieval pseudo-3D backgrounds.

It's... strange, to say the least.

*sigh* I miss the days of Romancing SaGa

I'd really like a Square game that has some actual visual identity. Bravely Default's probably the closest they've come in the last decade (if not longer).

edit: Hoooooly crap. So, I just noticed this and hadn't really paid attention to it until this post. It seems like the Square-Enix merger is where Square, ironically enough, died. The company goes from creating new content every year or two, to just becoming this massive regurgitation engine. Like, the company just transforms into this re-release and remaster and re-do monster. There are years after the merger where the entire year is nothing but re-releases. And this has gotten worse as time has gone on. Every year more and more re-releases and less new content. Honestly, that's kinda sad.

I'm now wondering how many other companies died on the corporate merger pyre...

IwazaruK7 · Apr 27, 2018

Hey, i like colours and ornament here. Very stylish.

Oddish1 · Apr 27, 2018

esserius said:
I
edit: Hoooooly crap. So, I just noticed this and hadn't really paid attention to it until this post. It seems like the Square-Enix merger is where Square, ironically enough, died. The company goes from creating new content every year or two, to just becoming this massive regurgitation engine. Like, the company just transforms into this re-release and remaster and re-do monster. There are years after the merger where the entire year is nothing but re-releases. And this has gotten worse as time has gone on. Every year more and more re-releases and less new content. Honestly, that's kinda sad.

I'm now wondering how many other companies died on the corporate merger pyre...

I'm not sure if it was directly due to the merger but I think around that time was when Square Enix's business plan was basically "more Final Fantasy". Sakaguchi left after the merger and he was likely a huge force in pushing for more creative games. They also lost quite a bit of talent around 1999 when creatives who worked on Xenogear and Chrono Cross left Square due to the company prioritizing Final Fantasy and big brands over smaller games. These people formed the company Monolith Soft who were bought by Namco, made a series of games, and was then bought by Nintendo and made Xenoblade Chronicles, Xenoblade X, and Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I have successfully brought the topic back to Xenoblade 2, what do I win?

EDIT: But yeah, I do think the merger definitely made the new Square Enix even less risk averse at a time when they were already becoming less risky and relying on Final Fantasy to turn profits.

esserius · Apr 27, 2018

Oddish1 said:
I'm not sure if it was directly due to the merger but I think around that time was when Square Enix's business plan was basically "more Final Fantasy". Sakaguchi left after the merger and he was likely a huge force in pushing for more creative games. They also lost quite a bit of talent around 1999 when creatives who worked on Xenogear and Chrono Cross left Square due to the company prioritizing Final Fantasy and big brands over smaller games. These people formed the company Monolith Soft who were bought by Namco, made a series of games, and was then bought by Nintendo and made Xenoblade Chronicles, Xenoblade X, and Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I have successfully brought the topic back to Xenoblade 2, what do I win?

EDIT: But yeah, I do think the merger definitely made the new Square Enix even less risk averse at a time when they were already becoming less risky and relying on Final Fantasy to turn profits.

That's a much more detailed analysis that I myself would have likely done, but it seems a pretty accurate assessment.

Still... gotta say that it really makes the game industry look like... well, an industry. I suppose that industrial mindset is both the beginning and the end.

Oddish1 · Apr 27, 2018

esserius said:
That's a much more detailed analysis that I myself would have likely done, but it seems a pretty accurate assessment.

Still... gotta say that it really makes the game industry look like... well, an industry. I suppose that industrial mindset is both the beginning and the end.

There was something about the mid-2000s. Mikami was an advocate for Clover Games and pushing for creatively interesting games, but those games failed and Clover was closed causing Mikami and everyone else at Clover to leave. I guess as HD consoles approached and game development costs soared you couldn't really afford to make as many interesting creative games and instead had to rely on established brands to increase profits to please shareholders. And then just Sega. Just Sega.

In short, capitalism is bad and likely is one of the reasons why so many terrible female character designs exist. (Nailed it. Knew I could bring it back on topic)

esserius · Apr 27, 2018

Oddish1 said:
There was something about the mid-2000s. Mikami was an advocate for Clover Games and pushing for creatively interesting games, but those games failed and Clover was closed causing Mikami and everyone else at Clover to leave. I guess as HD consoles approached and game development costs soared you couldn't really afford to make as many interesting creative games and instead had to rely on established brands to increase profits to please shareholders. And then just Sega. Just Sega.

In short, capitalism is bad and likely is one of the reasons why so many terrible female character designs exist. (Nailed it. Knew I could bring it back on topic)

Hehe, of course. ;)

Culture's the other part of why the designs are so bad... though video games are a really new medium so you would expect a generally more progressive outlook. Yet technology now seemingly is more conservative than ever before. All that evolution in the 80s and 90s and then... I dunno. The internet happened I guess? What is patient zero for the creative black hole we've been swept into? More and more when I see video games, I'm increasingly forced to believe that they really are the toys (for boys) they so adamantly denied themselves being a few decades ago.

Oddish1 · Apr 27, 2018

esserius said:
Hehe, of course. ;)

Culture's the other part of why the designs are so bad... though video games are a really new medium so you would expect a generally more progressive outlook. Yet technology now seemingly is more conservative than ever before. All that evolution in the 80s and 90s and then... I dunno. The internet happened I guess? What is patient zero for the creative black hole we've been swept into? More and more when I see video games, I'm increasingly forced to believe that they really are the toys (for boys) they so adamantly denied themselves being a few decades ago.

Really? I feel like video games are at least trying to be more inclusive than they were in the 80s and 90s. It's still heavily flawed, sure, but at least an increasing awareness that there is a problem. I think it's just now we see all of the crap rather than just some of it. Although that's just more of a feeling than anything definite. I think progress is being made and will continue to be made.

Dary · Apr 27, 2018

esserius said:
That's a much more detailed analysis that I myself would have likely done, but it seems a pretty accurate assessment.

Still... gotta say that it really makes the game industry look like... well, an industry. I suppose that industrial mindset is both the beginning and the end.

I always say The Spirit Within and Advent Children perfectly symbolise the two ages of Square: the former had the heart and soul of Final Fantasy, but the fanbase hated it...for not being Final Fantasy, while the latter is exactly what they asked for...which made it an impenetrable, self-indulgent wank of a film focused solely on visual spectacle.

I guess you could now add Kingsglaive to the metaphor: equally impenetrable and self-indulgent as Advent Children, but now with an added veneer of trying to look clever.

It's also telling that I've managed to reach the final chapter of Chrono Trigger in the time it took me to finish the first chapter of FFXV.

Oddish1 said:
There was something about the mid-2000s. Mikami was an advocate for Clover Games and pushing for creatively interesting games, but those games failed and Clover was closed causing Mikami and everyone else at Clover to leave. I guess as HD consoles approached and game development costs soared you couldn't really afford to make as many interesting creative games and instead had to rely on established brands to increase profits to please shareholders. And then just Sega. Just Sega.

In short, capitalism is bad and likely is one of the reasons why so many terrible female character designs exist. (Nailed it. Knew I could bring it back on topic)

The industry's obsession with Triple AAA hits and massive sales has really fucked it over. It feels like insecurity, really, like a desperate need to prove itself equal to other forms of entertainment by making even more money than they do. If your game needs to sell ten million just to break even, you've clearly fucked up somewhere.

rras1994 · Apr 27, 2018

Dary said:
The industry's obsession with Triple AAA hits and massive sales has really fucked it over. It feels like insecurity, really, like a desperate need to prove itself equal to other forms of entertainment by making even more money than they do. If your game needs to sell ten million just to break even, you've clearly fucked up somewhere.

Yet weirdly it seems to be the other end of the spectrum which has these terrible female designs - Xenoblade 2 sold something around the million mark and that was actually good for the series, it's not the multi-million selling AAA franchise yet it has awful designs. Maybe it's just me but I've actually seen the AAA industry become alot better with regards to minorities in games (still have a while to go), part of it I think is they are finally discovering that women, poc and LGBT are consumers too who would like to play games, and if you want to go for multi million copies you may need to expand your market, so in some ways it could be good. However it also puts alot of pressure on devs so I think it's not so much they are trying to be safe and bland, devs clearly put their heart and soul in, I just think that when it's so easy for a game to be a flop nowadays despite selling a couple of millions, or getting good reviews, it's more likely to make you doubt yourself and not trust your instincts. I feel like gaming fans can also be really loud and some of the things I've seen written to devs have made me quite disgusted. Everyone keeps saying they want different, new IPs, new mechanics etc. yet when devs do try something new, ironically it's often the hardcore fans that rip them for it.

esserius · Apr 27, 2018

Oddish1 said:
Really? I feel like video games are at least trying to be more inclusive than they were in the 80s and 90s. It's still heavily flawed, sure, but at least an increasing awareness that there is a problem. I think it's just now we see all of the crap rather than just some of it. Although that's just more of a feeling than anything definite. I think progress is being made and will continue to be made.

I think awareness has increased, but following through on that understanding has not. Even if games in the 80s and 90s weren't trying to necessarily be inclusive, I'd argue that, intentionally or not, they actually were inclusive in a lot of ways that games aren't now. Not just as a design conceit either, but of a more measured role for characters as well. I'd argue that Square's most inclusive game, ironically enough, was probably Final Fantasy VI. And yes, it has problems too; but none of them are nearly so dire as what happened once Nomura started designing for Final Fantasy.

Tfritz · Apr 28, 2018

esserius said:
I'm not a fan of Primrose but at least it fits her character (not that it's saying much aside from just T&A - I think a dancer in plainclothes would be far more interesting, simply because it's going against lazy tropes).

That said, the actual game's visuals are a really odd mish-mash. Maybe it looks better in motion but the stills are really strange visually. Like, you have these hyper modern looking menus, fantasy sprites, and medieval pseudo-3D backgrounds.

It's... strange, to say the least.

*sigh* I miss the days of Romancing SaGa

I'd really like a Square game that has some actual visual identity. Bravely Default's probably the closest they've come in the last decade (if not longer).

edit: Hoooooly crap. So, I just noticed this and hadn't really paid attention to it until this post. It seems like the Square-Enix merger is where Square, ironically enough, died. The company goes from creating new content every year or two, to just becoming this massive regurgitation engine. Like, the company just transforms into this re-release and remaster and re-do monster. There are years after the merger where the entire year is nothing but re-releases. And this has gotten worse as time has gone on. Every year more and more re-releases and less new content. Honestly, that's kinda sad.

I'm now wondering how many other companies died on the corporate merger pyre...

Please look forward to SaGa: Scarlet Grace: Scarlet Ambition version, coming to PS4, Nintendo Switch, Steam, iOS and Android in Japan on August 2nd, and .an undetermined future date for North America.

esserius · Apr 29, 2018

Tfritz said:
Please look forward to SaGa: Scarlet Grace: Scarlet Ambition version, coming to PS4, Nintendo Switch, Steam, iOS and Android in Japan on August 2nd, and .an undetermined future date for North America.

Laiza · Apr 29, 2018

esserius said:

This face is already getting so much mileage.

The animator that drew it should be proud.

Xaszatm · Apr 29, 2018

esserius said:

Where is that from, btw?

Laiza · Apr 29, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Where is that from, btw?

Sword Art Online Alternative: Gun Gale Online.

Adaptation of a light novel series written by the author of Kino's Journey. Unsurprisingly, it's much, much better than the source material it's spinning off of.

Deleted member 18021 · Apr 29, 2018

Regular SAO is hot garbage, but this new series is actually pretty darn okay despite everything.
I was pretty surprised.

A.J. · Apr 29, 2018

Well it dosen't have Reki Kawahara writing it and it dosen't ahve Kirito and friends, so it hasn't nowhere to go but up on the quality scale.

Antiwhippy · Apr 29, 2018

Speaking of anime though, I wonder of any of y'all have watched aggretsuko? Especially seeing it seems to portray the pressures of women in Japanese society with a pretty good critical eye.

Tizoc · Apr 29, 2018

Antiwhippy said:
Speaking of anime though, I winner of any of y'all have watched aggretsuko? Especially seeing it seems to portray the pressures of women in Japanese society with a pretty good critical eye.

I just tead the wikipedia synopsis and am already sold on it

Choppasmith · Apr 30, 2018

Antiwhippy said:
Speaking of anime though, I wonder of any of y'all have watched aggretsuko? Especially seeing it seems to portray the pressures of women in Japanese society with a pretty good critical eye.

Just finished it last night, I figured with seeing the trailer, it'd just be Hello Kitty meets Katie Kaboom. Cute, but kinda one-note and mindless fluff, but wow I was not expecting it to be that deep. It helps that the English Dub tweaks the script a bit to add a little more dimension to the characters and dialog.

And worth noting, I thought of this thread during the last couple of episodes with Retsuko in heels since I know that's a criticism that comes up so much in designs. It's like whoever wrote that was tired of seeing them everywhere as well for the same reasons brought up in this thread.

Opa-Pa · Apr 30, 2018

Choppasmith said:
Just finished it last night, I figured with seeing the trailer, it'd just be Hello Kitty meets Katie Kaboom. Cute, but kinda one-note and mindless fluff, but wow I was not expecting it to be that deep. It helps that the English Dub tweaks the script a bit to add a little more dimension to the characters and dialog.

And worth noting, I thought of this thread during the last couple of episodes with Retsuko in heels since I know that's a criticism that comes up so much in designs. It's like whoever wrote that was tired of seeing them everywhere as well for the same reasons brought up in this thread.

I was considering giving this a watch already because my sister has been bugging me about it, but this sounds far better than I expected. Interesting.

Twig · Apr 30, 2018

There's also a preceding TV series of Aggretsuko, whose success I believe led to this Netflix series. The episodes are much shorter. One minute each.

Deleted member 5535 · Apr 30, 2018

esserius said:
I'm not a fan of Primrose but at least it fits her character (not that it's saying much aside from just T&A - I think a dancer in plainclothes would be far more interesting, simply because it's going against lazy tropes).

That said, the actual game's visuals are a really odd mish-mash. Maybe it looks better in motion but the stills are really strange visually. Like, you have these hyper modern looking menus, fantasy sprites, and medieval pseudo-3D backgrounds.

It's... strange, to say the least.

*sigh* I miss the days of Romancing SaGa

I'd really like a Square game that has some actual visual identity. Bravely Default's probably the closest they've come in the last decade (if not longer).

edit: Hoooooly crap. So, I just noticed this and hadn't really paid attention to it until this post. It seems like the Square-Enix merger is where Square, ironically enough, died. The company goes from creating new content every year or two, to just becoming this massive regurgitation engine. Like, the company just transforms into this re-release and remaster and re-do monster. There are years after the merger where the entire year is nothing but re-releases. And this has gotten worse as time has gone on. Every year more and more re-releases and less new content. Honestly, that's kinda sad.

I'm now wondering how many other companies died on the corporate merger pyre...

Not sure what you mean by that when this isn't true and even if it was, it isn't just this company which does it. If you want to say that about one company, Capcom is much more suited to it than Square Enix in that generation. Square Enix launched plenty of new games every year since the merger where Enix was the surviving company, even counting only the japanese side.

Here's the list just with games that aren't remasters, ports or remakes. I'm of course not picking Square Enix Europe offerings with their subsidiary and games published by them in the west, if I picked them it would be bigger.

2003: Crystal Chronicles, Drakengard, Front Mission 4, Fullmetal Alchemist and the Broken Angel

2004: Dragon Quest 8, Fullmetal Alchemist 2, Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories, Dragon Quest & Final Fantasy in Itadaki Street Special

2005: Radiata Stories, Musashi Samurai Legend, Front Mission Online, Hanjuku Hero 4: 7-Jin no Hanjuku Hero, Drakengard 2, Fullmetal Alchemist 3, Grandia 3, Heavy Metal Thunder, Code Age Commander, Dragon Quest Heroes: Rocket Slime, Kingdom Hearts 2, Front Mission 5: Scars of the War

2006: Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII, Children of Mana, Final Fantasy XI, Final Fantasy XII, Dragon Quest: Shōnen Yangus to Fushigi no Dungeon, Dragon Quest & Final Fantasy in Itadaki Street Portable, Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria, Project Sylpheed, Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo Tales, Dawn of Mana, Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker

2007: Heroes of Mana, Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings, Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions, Itadaki Street DS, Dragon Quest Swords, The World Ends with You, Crisis Core: Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift, Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon

2008: Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King, Front Mission 2089, Nanashi no Game, Sigma Harmonics, Infinite Undiscovery, Soul Eater: Monotone Princess, Snoopy DS, Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume, The Last Remnant, Dissidia Final Fantasy

2009: Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Echoes of Time, Kuroshitsuji: Phantom & Ghost, Star Ocean: The Last Hope, Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, Dragon Quest Wars, Dragon Quest: Monster Battle Road II Legends, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers, Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a Darklord, Dragon Quest IX, Blood of Bahamut, Fullmetal Alchemist: Daughter of the Dusk, Final Fantasy XIII

2010: Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, Death By Cube, Kingdom Hearts Re:coded, Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 2, Nier, Final Fantasy XIV, Front Mission Evolved, Lord of Arcana, The 3rd Birthday

2011: MindJack, Bust-a-Move Universe, Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy Type-0, Slime Mori Mori Dragon Quest 3, Fortune Street, Final Fantasy XIII-2, Army Corps of Hell

2012: Theatrhythm Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance, Heroes of Ruin, Dragon Quest X, Bravely Default

2013: Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII, Drakengard 3

2014: Theatrhythm Final Fantasy: Curtain Call, Final Fantasy Explorers

2015: Dragon Quest Heroes: The World Tree's Woe and the Blight Below, Theatrhythm Dragon Quest, Bravely Second: End Layer

2016: Dragon Quest Builders, I am Setsuna, Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 3, Star Ocean: Integrity and Faithlessness, Dragon Quest Heroes II, Final Fantasy XV, World of Final Fantasy, SaGa: Scarlet Grace

2017: Nier Automata, Dragon Quest XI, Lost Sphear, Itadaki Street: Dragon Quest & Final Fantasy 30th Anniversary

2018: Dissidia Final Fantasy NT, Octopath Traveller, Kingdom Hearts 3

esserius · Apr 30, 2018

Just uh... so you know, there are remakes and remasters in the list you just posted.

Worth noting the huge number of spin-off titles as well, many, many of which were awful (especially all of the junk that came out of FFVII).

Putting out a ton of games is not equal to quality, and remakes and remasters are just indicative of larger trends (i.e., lazy production). If anything, a deluge of games is almost assuredly going to equal poor quality, because you're dividing up your staff too much. There's a happy balance necessary to have both the resources and the time to put out games. Additionally, not too much time... so many video games get bogged down and just become giant messes - if anything I'd say that is Square's current modus operandi, and also why they haven't created anything close to what they put out in the 90s. The ideal of creating some unreachable perfection is Square's biggest problem currently, and a lot of that stems from remakes and remasters being pumped out ad nauseam (most of which are also bad). If you feed off of nostalgia you forget where the actual inspiration comes from. The fact that they're still putting out sequels to "Final Fantasy" at this point is practically a joke.

RalchAC · Apr 30, 2018

A.J. said:
Well it dosen't have Reki Kawahara writing it and it dosen't ahve Kirito and friends, so it hasn't nowhere to go but up on the quality scale.

In SAO's defense GGO arc is probably the only arc that is acceptably well written and enjoyable. There is still some bullshit and Kirito still exists, but for the most part Sinnon is a fleshed out character as opposed to a waifu, with motivations and everything and manages to stay far from Kirito's harem magnet until the end of her character arc.

I'd kill for an actual book or piece of media that managed to catch the magic of playing an MMO for the first time. It's not something that can be replicated if you haven't been part of it, some of my best memories in this hobby are from WoW.

esserius · Apr 30, 2018

RalchAC said:
In SAO's defense GGO arc is probably the only arc that is acceptably well written and enjoyable. There is still some bullshit and Kirito still exists, but for the most part Sinnon is a fleshed out character as opposed to a waifu, with motivations and everything and manages to stay far from Kirito's harem magnet until the end of her character arc.

Yeah, but that's the problem. Kirito is a shitlord. It feels like he was designed to be hated. I don't really think there's much to defend, given any arc with Kirito in it is basically ruined by his existence (mostly because he's a superhero that is presented as a normal human being - this is a huge problem with many isekai stories).

As for catching original WoW, that was basically lightning in a bottle. I've yet to see anything replicate that experience, mostly because technology played a huge part in it, as much as the game itself. I like Log Horizon, but it clearly isn't about the MMO experience. It's about what would happen if normal people got caught up in an MMO world. It's still occasionally trope-y, but at least it's an isekai show that presents people reacting in a way that might be considered reasonable, instead of the dumb shit most other isekai stories are about (mostly god complexes - via characters like Kirito).

Famassu · Apr 30, 2018

esserius said:
Just uh... so you know, there are remakes and remasters in the list you just posted.

Worth noting the huge number of spin-off titles as well, many, many of which were awful (especially all of the junk that came out of FFVII).

Still a silly thing to whine about post merger SQEX. Yeah, they are more risk averse, but that's what happens when even the smaller games with their level of production quality are nowadays bigger than some big games were in the past. They still try to push out new IPs now and then (TWEWY, Bravely Default, Octopath Traveler, Nier, I am Setsuna, Lost Sphear, that new upcoming mecha game etc) and even with old IPs they aren't just content with repeating the same shit with every game. There's more variety within just the Final Fantasy franchise than in the output of some companies as a whole. If the usage of the FF name and some familiar enemy designs allow them to experiment a ton while still finding enough success to continue experimenting, that's not a bad thing in my opinion.

Yeah, they release fewer games per year. So? That applies to everyone. Santa Monica can barely get a single God of War game out in a generation, there's no abundance of GTAs per generation (this gen might not even have one new GTA...), Naugthy Dog can't keep up with the one per two years release schedule they still had during the PS360 generation etc. It's just a reality of game development that high level/production value game development takes a lot more time. Gone are the days when a team of 30-40 people could deliver a fairly state of the art game in 12-18 months.

It's also a fairly silly thing to say in 2018, when they've already released one new IP, one 3D fighting FF game and have another new IP coming in just a couple of/few months + are releasing Kingdom Hearts III and (western) DQXI this year. Last year was a little quieter but in an age when a single big game can easily take 4-5 years to develop (unless massive 1000+ developers steong teams work on them), some years being a bit less packed with releases isn't anything too out of the ordinary.

esserius · Apr 30, 2018

Famassu said:
Still a silly thing to whine about post merger SQEX. Yeah, they are more risk averse, but that's what happens when even the smaller games with their level of production quality are nowadays bigger than some big games were in the past. They still try to push out new IPs now and then (TWEWY, Bravely Default, Octopath Traveler, Nier, I am Setsuna, Lost Sphear, that new upcoming mecha game etc) and even with old IPs they aren't just content with repeating the same shit with every game. There's more variety within just the Final Fantasy franchise than in the output of some companies as a whole. If the usage of the FF name and some familiar enemy designs allow them to experiment a ton while still finding enough success to continue experimenting, that's not a bad thing in my opinion.

Yeah, they release fewer games per year. So? That applies to everyone. Santa Monica can barely get a single God of War game out in a generation, there's no abundance of GTAs per generation (this gen might not even have one new GTA...), Naugthy Dog can't keep up with the one per two years release schedule they still had during the PS360 generation etc. It's just a reality of game development that high level/production value game development takes a lot more time. Gone are the days when a team of 30-40 people could deliver a fairly state of the art game in 12-18 months.

It's also a fairly silly thing to say in 2018, when they've already released one new IP, one 3D fighting FF game and have another new IP coming in just a couple of/few months + are releasing Kingdom Hearts III and (western) DQXI this year. Last year was a little quieter but in an age when a single big game can easily take 4-5 years to develop (unless massive 1000+ developers steong teams work on them), some years being a bit less packed with releases isn't anything too out of the ordinary.

If a game needs 1000+ developers, it might be time to reconsider scope and get some perspective (please note, not talking about all people involved in production, but specifically developers). Also worth noting that there are games better than the entire oeuvre of SQEX's past 15 years of work, made with teams of 10 or less people and made within the past decade (both western and eastern).

That said, I don't think I'm whining so much as pointing out a trend. And to say they're not repeating content comes off as ridiculous (though again, I suspect this is just lazy production). Even the games you mention as new IPs are aping... well, lots of Square's old IPs (many of which even had the developers themselves state which Square IPs they were looking to copy!).

I don't really believe that a small team can't produce something amazing. It may not be as impressive visually, but the fact that big companies are so concerned about visuals is a problem they created for themselves. Additionally, the fact that games like Demon's Souls can be produced with a fraction of what the latest God of War game cost already shows that better games can exist with far smaller budgets (and I'd argue that Demon's Souls has better visuals than God of War, though I'm sure that's just poking the bear - it certainly has more identity than God of War).

I'm not complaining about number of releases so much as releasing products that have an identity that is their own and isn't scavenged. And that's a problem in the larger game industry, not just SQEX. What new IP did they release? The only new IP I see wasn't developed by them.

For clarity - when you say 1000+ developers are you actually talking about the entirety of production or developers for the game specifically? Like, there might be thousands of people who worked on a given game but it doesn't necessarily mean they were directly involved in its development (such as QA, marketing, etc.).

A lot of the bigger problems with regards to sexualization get caught up, cynically, in the desire to produce what is marketable rather than what is important to the production. The seeming inability (or more likely, lack of desire to change) of those higher up the chain to filter for blatant mischaracterizations is harmful at best and damaging to future marketability at worst (essentially creating a cycle of niche, where any popular IP is scavenged until its identity is effectively subsumed by that same cynical marketing). It's closing off potential by way of exploiting instead of expanding.

kaytee · Apr 30, 2018

esserius said:
I'm not a fan of Primrose but at least it fits her character (not that it's saying much aside from just T&A - I think a dancer in plainclothes would be far more interesting, simply because it's going against lazy tropes).

That said, the actual game's visuals are a really odd mish-mash. Maybe it looks better in motion but the stills are really strange visually. Like, you have these hyper modern looking menus, fantasy sprites, and medieval pseudo-3D backgrounds.

I'm not sure if that's a new screenshot or a really old one? The menus don't look like that in the demo, and I'm personally a huge fan of the visuals. Along with the music, I thought they created a really lovely, dreamy mood. I know some people were having issues with the depth of field effect, but it seems like they're toning it down.

I also really like Primrose! I agree with people who think it's a little off that she'd keep the dancer outfit on considering the events in the demo, but it actually seems likely that you might go get a second class after that and change clothes. And if they're going to have a sexy outfit, I prefer something that actually looks like real clothing, and is you know... pretty. Stylish. It helps that the other female characters aren't wearing anything super skimpy.

So if lurkers want to know what "good sexy" can look like, Octopath might be a good candidate. We won't really know until we have the full game in our hands, though.

A.J. · Apr 30, 2018

RalchAC said:
In SAO's defense GGO arc is probably the only arc that is acceptably well written and enjoyable. There is still some bullshit and Kirito still exists, but for the most part Sinnon is a fleshed out character as opposed to a waifu, with motivations and everything and manages to stay far from Kirito's harem magnet until the end of her character arc.

I'd kill for an actual book or piece of media that managed to catch the magic of playing an MMO for the first time. It's not something that can be replicated if you haven't been part of it, some of my best memories in this hobby are from WoW.

Sinon is fine, but she still has to be around Kirito. It's the worst whenever the artist who draws SAO (Her penname is BunBun I think?) draws a male character for a gatcha game and it's just a different color Kirito. Like I think I developed a hatred for Roy just because whenever I look at her Roy design in FEH I think of Kirito.

Laiza · Apr 30, 2018

Someone drew Rex in Pyra's outfit. It belongs in this thread.

Those... hotpants? Truly the epitome of ridiculousness.

Dynamite Cop · Apr 30, 2018

IwazaruK7 said:
Hey, i like colours and ornament here. Very stylish.

Agreed. What game is this from?

esserius · Apr 30, 2018

kaytee said:
I'm not sure if that's a new screenshot or a really old one? The menus don't look like that in the demo, and I'm personally a huge fan of the visuals. Along with the music, I thought they created a really lovely, dreamy mood. I know some people were having issues with the depth of field effect, but it seems like they're toning it down.

I also really like Primrose! I agree with people who think it's a little off that she'd keep the dancer outfit on considering the events in the demo, but it actually seems likely that you might go get a second class after that and change clothes. And if they're going to have a sexy outfit, I prefer something that actually looks like real clothing, and is you know... pretty. Stylish. It helps that the other female characters aren't wearing anything super skimpy.

So if lurkers want to know what "good sexy" can look like, Octopath might be a good candidate. We won't really know until we have the full game in our hands, though.

Ah, so they fixed some of it. Good to hear. Haven't played the recent demo.

Assuming it's still 2D with bits of 3D I'd tend to think it's weird. Something like FFT is about as far as I'm willing to go before those inconsistencies start to push me (and even in the PSX era where that kind of stuff was super common... it seemed strange). Even with games like Wild Arms, which I'm a huge fan of, I still think the visuals in combat clash a lot with the rest of the game.

Chalk it up to personal preference. I'm not a fan of Primrose mostly because of how she's such an outlier with the design of the other characters and the game (color palette, etc.), but I assume that's what her story is about?

Morrigan · Apr 30, 2018

kaytee said:
I also really like Primrose! I agree with people who think it's a little off that she'd keep the dancer outfit on considering the events in the demo, but it actually seems likely that you might go get a second class after that and change clothes. And if they're going to have a sexy outfit, I prefer something that actually looks like real clothing, and is you know... pretty. Stylish. It helps that the other female characters aren't wearing anything super skimpy.

So if lurkers want to know what "good sexy" can look like, Octopath might be a good candidate. We won't really know until we have the full game in our hands, though.

Couldn't agree more, especially with the bolded. :)

RalchAC · Apr 30, 2018

A.J. said:
Sinon is fine, but she still has to be around Kirito. It's the worst whenever the artist who draws SAO (Her penname is BunBun I think?) draws a male character for a gatcha game and it's just a different color Kirito. Like I think I developed a hatred for Roy just because whenever I look at her Roy design in FEH I think of Kirito.

I don't disagree with you, I just feel that GGO is the closest to a well told story in the series and Sinnon is the only character that has actual motivations and a proper arc in the series. The arc is enjoyable despite Kirito, not because of him.

Sesha · Apr 30, 2018

Dary said:
Ah, Telos, one of my biggest "Oh, Japan!" facepalms. Seems poor Mary can't catch a break...

Classical Mary Magdalene (thoroughly whitewashed)

Anime Mary Magdalene (all thonged up)

Meanwhile, I'm not holding my breath for Swinsuit Ziggy to make a Xenoblade 2 appearance...

That's not Mary Magdalene.

T-elos was made using Mary's body but she's a separate entity.

This is her:

Xaszatm · Apr 30, 2018

Sesha said:
That's not Mary Magdalene.

T-elos was made using Mary's body but she's a separate entity.

This is her:

It's still amusing (read: annoying) that despite it being...you know...0 A.D. they still give her the cleavage.

Sesha · Apr 30, 2018

Xaszatm said:
It's still amusing (read: annoying) that despite it being...you know...0 A.D. they still give her the cleavage.

Yeah, that was silly.

Dary · Apr 30, 2018

Sesha said:
That's not Mary Magdalene.

T-elos was made using Mary's body but she's a separate entity.

This is her:

I mean, technically, yeah ... but that still doesn't hide the fact they took the dead body of Mary Magdalene and turned it into a sexy robot girl.

Sesha · Apr 30, 2018

Dary said:
I mean, technically, yeah ... but that still doesn't hide the fact they took the dead body of Mary Magdalene and turned it into a sexy robot girl.

I know. I'm not disagreeing on that part. I just wanted to point out the technicality, since the distinction was important in-game too.

ShyMel · May 1, 2018

Well Taki's SC6 trailer leaked and the developers felt like reminding us that women have nipples.

RpgN · May 1, 2018

Eh? Don't tell me they made her like SCIV again?

ShyMel · May 1, 2018

RpgN said:
Eh? Don't tell me they made her like SCIV again?

Also her model is pretty much the one from 4.

RpgN · May 1, 2018

Lol.

They might as well make her naked. What's the point in a pink paint job?

A.J. · May 1, 2018

I guess detailed nipples is the next step after detailed breast jiggle.

Dary · May 1, 2018

"Hey there you horny young boys, wanna see some nip?"

OhSatan · May 1, 2018

ShyMel said:
Well Taki's SC6 trailer leaked and the developers felt like reminding us that women have nipples.

At least they didn't put the areola this time, progress right?

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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