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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,643
Tel Aviv
What are your thoughts on the concept of a "Divine Answer" type scenario? Not theologically divine but where you conclude that yours is the only true answer. When you 'know' your movement is the only true answer and that any suppression of opposition is justified?

It's a concept that I've heard about a few months ago and has stuck with me ever since. It's led to the fall of many revolutionary movements including that of the Jacobins during the French revolution.

I ask because I think it would be hard to be able to remove one's self when in the movement. But something that must be faced for any successful movement. And it can ultimately leave some almost petrified at the prospect.

Hope what I'm trying to explain makes any sense.
That's a really good point. Socialists and left-leaning people in general can get just as dogmatic as anyone. I always keep questioning myself and trying to look at issues from multiple points of view, which I think is inherent to being an anarchist. IMO, in order for the movements to make any stride we must foster open and free discourse and avoid dogmatic thinking. I swear for some socialists Marx is as infallible as a messiah.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
What are your thoughts on the concept of a "Divine Answer" type scenario? Not theologically divine but where you conclude that yours is the only true answer. When you 'know' your movement is the only true answer and that any suppression of opposition is justified?

It's a concept that I've heard about a few months ago and has stuck with me ever since. It's led to the fall of many revolutionary movements including that of the Jacobins during the French revolution.

I ask because I think it would be hard to be able to remove one's self when in the movement. But something that must be faced for any successful movement. And it can ultimately leave some almost petrified at the prospect.

Hope what I'm trying to explain makes any sense.
I argue with socialists online

I'm not sure how effective it is, or of course if I'm right at all

Okay more seriously I do think this represents a persistent political problem across pretty much the entire political map, left leaning movements very much included. A lot of movements in the US in particular (and I assume globally, the US is just my reference frame) struggle with what I'll call the "soft version" of this issue, or the "we're totally the silent majority guys the people are behind our righteous cause (even if they don't know it yet)", which can lead to a similar sort of dogmatism.

That's a really good point. Socialists and left-leaning people in general can get just as dogmatic as anyone. I always keep questioning myself and trying to look at issues from multiple points of view, which I think is inherent to being an anarchist.
For as much as I butt heads with anarchists this is one area where I think they're relatively strong; most anarchists in my experience don't harbor many illusions about people enthusiastically being ready to hop on board the "obviously correct mode of social organization" and recognize how fragile transition periods can be
 
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Oct 25, 2017
523
Something we gotta keep in mind: if socialism/leftism in general is to win hearts and minds, it's gotta be intersectional as hell. More Chelsea Mannings and Keith Ellisons in the forefront, less Chapos.
not to disagree with the sentiment, but in Chapo's defense they a) weren't intended as any sort of vanguard of the left, it was just a weird podcast with weird in jokes about the Turkish deep state that blew up b) when they fuck up they usually try to make amends and don't dig their heels in c) they did bring in a woman and POC as hosts and try to get plenty of women and poc guests on the podcast

but as a whole agreed, and I hope Chapo works on fixing their more broscialist side. I've been enjoying Citations Needed quite a bit since discovering it, lots of scathing takes on a variety of issues and a good diversity of guests and topics. Jacobin's podcast The Dig is also really good and covers a lot of issues on the criminal justice and immigration side of things.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...s-wealth-swells-to-6tn?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

kSexYXm.png


Guys, they're trying to stop the revolution by.... buying football teams for themselves?
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Im trying to understand, lol. This made me remember an old good video of slavoj zizek, related to this, Very didactic:

 

corn93

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
158
As bad as the motivation behind the action is, could we use America's sudden disillusionment with Football for positive ends?
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
So for the record apparently it looks like some "trolls" or the alt-right on the internet have definitely being looking at this thread with a keen eye just had this written about me somewhere
NeoFAGs claim they aren't hard left psychos completely intolerant of dissenting or even merely differing views. However, I can bet that this fucking guy who openly introduces himself as affiliated with socialist-alliance.org and greenleft.org.au will keep his account. Meanwhile, anyone who admits to voting for Trump or even not voting for Hillary won't have an account that lasts as long as 24 hours.

Probably means you should watch out for whatever personal info you post on this page, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that some of my posts here are spreading around it just means extra profile for my group which is always nice, i'm more at risk of more serious threats from the far-right in a physical realm because of my activism anyway. :P

Anyway here are some good resources and links that might be useful to attach the OP at some point

News publications

https://www.counterpunch.org/
https://socialistworker.org/
http://links.org.au/
http://climateandcapitalism.com/ - i think this blog is very very good, i think the ecological arguments against capitalism is very convincing and one of the most radicalizing force out there, I've personally met the author of the site (Ian Angus) who has spoken at a number of my parties conferences and he's a brilliant speaker and has written some fantastic books on ecology and capitalism.
https://monthlyreview.org/
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/
www.greenleft.org.au (for australian radical news and i'm a frequent writer for it :P)
https://overland.org.au/ australian publication that prints a lot of radical stuff.


Educational

https://www.youtube.com/user/readingcapital david harvey capital educational series.

Book shops

https://www.versobooks.com/- has very good sales with free shipping for international orders every christmas.
https://www.haymarketbooks.org/

Probably have some more but this is what is off the top of my head at this point.
 

Croco

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
32
Commie reporting in! Finally a community I can call home.

If we want to get more people to align with us we need to start educating, fighting burgeois propaganda, and proving that we are the most efficient enemy of the right.


Edit: www.marxists.org has amazing resources on the matter. Extremely valuable site for learning about this stuff.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
I also say check out spectrerouge.com

The articles are user submitted from /leftypol/ though if that bothers you. I think it's interesting enough.
 

corn93

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
158
Lafiel The funny thing is that for as "left" as GAF was claimed to be, I don't think the majority of users were socialist. At best you have the majority being social democrats.

I will partly agree with them on one thing though. It was very easy to get yelled at if you admitted not voting for Hillary. I believe pigeon even got mad at me for admitting that I voted third party (no hard feelings Pigeon).
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Yeah, its easy to find the source. Just search the link of the thread on google, there's a bunch of places talking about this thread. The best is to ignore and avoid to talk personal details.

I have seen a Guy that wants to register in this forum and talk here about National Socialism, since its socialism for him...

Oh and Lime you have a big fanclub
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I also say check out spectrerouge.com

The articles are user submitted from /leftypol/ though if that bothers you. I think it's interesting enough.

I took a look and I like that Syria article but I think for now its probably best to avoid leftypol stuff considering the site it comes from. Not aure how the mods would take that.

So for the record apparently it looks like some "trolls" or the alt-right on the internet have definitely being looking at this thread with a keen eye just had this written about me somewhere


Probably means you should watch out for whatever personal info you post on this page, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that some of my posts here are spreading around it just means extra profile for my group which is always nice, i'm more at risk of more serious threats from the far-right in a physical realm because of my activism anyway. :P


Anyway here are some good resources and links that might be useful to attach the OP at some point


News publications


https://www.counterpunch.org/

https://socialistworker.org/

http://links.org.au/

http://climateandcapitalism.com/ - i think this blog is very very good, i think the ecological arguments against capitalism is very convincing and one of the most radicalizing force out there, I've personally met the author of the site (Ian Angus) who has spoken at a number of my parties conferences and he's a brilliant speaker and has written some fantastic books on ecology and capitalism.

https://monthlyreview.org/

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/

www.greenleft.org.au (for australian radical news and i'm a frequent writer for it :P)

https://overland.org.au/ australian publication that prints a lot of radical stuff.



Educational


https://www.youtube.com/user/readingcapital david harvey capital educational series.


Book shops


https://www.versobooks.com/- has very good sales with free shipping for international orders every christmas.

https://www.haymarketbooks.org/


Probably have some more but this is what is off the top of my head at this point.

Thanks for the list, Ill be sure to incorporate some of this.
 

divination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,002
SocialistERA, eh? I'm socialist-curious if such a thing exists, so I will def be lurking this thread!
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The modified OP with resources is up. Let me know if I should add anything - I just tried to list some of the standards and things newcomers might find useful.
 

Leandras

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,462
Thanks for the responses everyone. It's something I'll have to ponder on some more because I feel you still might slip into that mindset even if unintentionally.

Constant self reflection is a really important step but could also lead to the petrified to inaction bit I feel.

It's a very good point that most political movements tap into that mindset to a lesser extent. But ideological movements tend to be really vulanarble.

Having a dialect is important but I wonder how far something like that could go before you just cant go on. A dialect with liberals for example might be easier than a dialect with neo-conservatives or even the latest version of conservatism.

Many people seem to have a clearer idea than me when it comes to this issue it seems.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...s-wealth-swells-to-6tn?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

kSexYXm.png


Guys, they're trying to stop the revolution by.... buying football teams for themselves?

Let them eat cake.
 

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,395
By American standards, I guess I am a Socialist Cummie scum by supporting UHC and UBI, so is this...

Home?
 

wisdom0wl

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
7,872
Yo. Can I get book recommends? Or general stuff to read? Views are more in line with Bernie's, but I wanted to see what the fuss is about when going full socialist.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Yo. Can I get book recommends? Or general stuff to read? Views are more in line with Bernie's, but I wanted to see what the fuss is about when going full socialist.
Spaghnum edited the First page, there's recommendations for begginers. But imo If you want something fast, easy, essential the communist manifesto:

Both Free versions:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Manifesto.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0084BMGCM/?tag=era0f0-20
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
Libertarian socialist here.

One problem is that many stereotype that we are naive and that we just found this in college as edgelords but like I said at the other place, it's simply not true. I came to socialism while working in the real world. I saw workers abused just to make an ends meet and it was treated as normal. If you wanted a life, you were guilt tripped into it. Whereas some would come to the conclusion,"it's a living", I came to the conclusion that capitalism was evil after reconsidering Marx's writings during what I was experiencing. It was the harsh real world that convinced me of socialism.
 
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OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Yo. Can I get book recommends? Or general stuff to read? Views are more in line with Bernie's, but I wanted to see what the fuss is about when going full socialist.

If you want to jump right in to the heavy stuff, Marx's Capital with David Harvey's Companion volumes (or just watch his videos). I dont think reading any Lenin or 20th century socialist thinkers makes much sense without first understanding Marx. But be warned, Marx is pretty dry.

Other stuff:
The ABCs of Socialism (purely introductory)
The Socialist Alternative: Real Human Development by Michael Lebowitz
Imperialism in the Twenty-First Century: Globalization, Super-Exploitation, and Capitalism's Final Crisis by John Smith

If you want something to really punch you in the face, Settlers by J. Sakai.

And hey, why not read an argument for socialism from one of the smartest men ever?

Libertarian socialist here.

Glad you made it over here!
 

Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
I recently read this wonderful book by Andreas Malm from Lund University. It might be a brick, but it's written so well that you basically just run through it. It's published by the very, very excellent publisher Verso Books (who I have many even more positive things to say about). Malm traces the introduction of fossil fuels to the industrialized society as a result of capitalism and it's a very thorough and investigative analysis. Highly, highly recommended.

In this masterful new history, Andreas Malm claims it all began in Britain with the rise of steam power. But why did manufacturers turn from traditional sources of power, notably water mills, to an engine fired by coal? Contrary to established views, steam offered neither cheaper nor more abundant energy—but rather superior control of subordinate labour. Animated by fossil fuels, capital could concentrate production at the most profitable sites and during the most convenient hours, as it continues to do today. Sweeping from nineteenth-century Manchester to the emissions explosion in China, from the original triumph of coal to the stalled shift to renewables, this study hones in on the burning heart of capital and demonstrates, in unprecedented depth, that turning down the heat will mean a radical overthrow of the current economic order.

9781784781293-8f050717528e0569294633e881dc6703.jpg


https://www.versobooks.com/books/2002-fossil-capital

Troy Vetters also wrote a great review for Jacobin that I recommend reading:

Andreas Malm's Fossil Capital is a weighty tome, sprawling centuries and disciplines to arrive at a unique reconceptualization of the relationship between nature, capitalism, and Marxism.

The tome's breadth makes a pithy summary impossible, but Malm's gimlet eye is manifest early on. Within the book's first pages he dismisses the trendy topic of "climate history" — the study of how previous civilizations dealt with erratic climates —arguing that scholars should search "not for climate in history, but for history in climate. Data on factory legislation or free-trade policy should be brought to bear on rainfall and ice, rather than the other way around."

Fossil Capital presents climate change as a historical problem specific to industrial capitalism, which for Malm originates in eighteenth- and early nineteenth-century Britain. This is ambitious. Malm, a young scholar, nonetheless succeeds, intervening decisively in almost every academic debate on the period. Why did the industrial revolution happen? Why in Britain? Why in the eighteenth century? Why did it run on coal? Malm provides persuasive answers through an adept application of a Marxist framework, and in doing so, rends to ribbons the field's predominantly neoclassical economic literature.

Malm's next research is about Fossil Empire which I can't wait to read more about.
 

Jeff6851

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
753
By American standards, I guess I am a Socialist Cummie scum by supporting UHC and UBI, so is this...

Home?

Americans would probably call you a socialist/communist for supporting that stuff but socialism isn't about the government doing stuff, it's workers democratically controlling the means of production. Of course, you're still welcome to post here and learn/debate :D
 

caffe misto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,110
the electric city
Libertarian socialist here.

One problem is that many stereotype that we are naive and that we just found this in college as edgelords but like I said at the other place, it's simply not true. I came to socialism while working in the real world. I saw workers abused just to make an ends meet and it was treated as normal. If you wanted a life, you were guilt tripped into it. Whereas some would come to the conclusion,"it's a living", I came to the conclusion that capitalism was evil after reconsidering Marx's writings during what I was experiencing. It was the harsh real world that convinced me of socialism.

This has been the same case for me. In college I began to favor typical campus fair-weather liberal issues, but didn't really know what I was talking about or care about them to deeply. After moving to work in the professional world, first at a small shop in the inner city, and later for a large corporation, I began to take on this perspective.
 

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,395
Americans would probably call you a socialist/communist for supporting that stuff but socialism isn't about the government doing stuff, it's workers democratically controlling the means of production. Of course, you're still welcome to post here and learn/debate :D

I know what Socialism is.

I'm more amused that compassionate policies are seen as Socialism in the neoliberal shitpit of America right now. It's actually dark, when you think about it.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Communism is the same old bogeyman, to right wingers. One thing that i'm noticing is the ammount of misinformation. Ancap is the usual meaning of anarchists today in internet, and anarchism is far right, national Socialism is socialism and is Far left.
Communism as having more state than Socialism.
Im having a difficult time Reading politics in internet and all these lies considered as true.
And i know there's think tanks responsible for spreading this, we are not living in a age of information with the internet, but quite the opposite.

Sorry for my little rant.
 

rucury

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,383
Puerto Rico
We in here. Maybe it's because I'm a young, rebellious adult and attend a liberal university in a time where right-wing politics is word of the day.

Or maybe it's Maybelline.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Michael Roberts has an interesting take on the elevation of Xi Jinping Thought in China and how it relates to the economy; he makes the argument that China is neither primarily capitalist nor socialist but some kind of unnamed hybrid. I'm not sure I agree with that analysis but it's interesting food for thought.

...

What this tells me is that, under Xi, China will never move towards the dismantling of the party and the state machine in order to develop a 'bourgeois democracy' based on a fully market economy and capitalist business. China will remain an economy that is fundamentally state-controlled and directed, with the 'commanding heights' of the economy under public ownership and controlled by the party elite.

Foreign businesses don't find this an appealing prospect, unsurprisingly. In a January survey of 462 US companies by the American Chamber of Commerce in China, 81 percent said they felt less welcome in China, while more than 60 percent have little or no confidence the country will further open its markets in the next three years.

Indeed, China still ranks 59th out of the 62 countries evaluated by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in terms of openness to foreign direct investment. At the same time, FDI is becoming less important to the economy: in 2016 it accounted for a little more than 1 percent of China's gross domestic product, down from around 2.3 percent in 2006 and 4.8 percent in 1996.

An even bigger cause for concern for multinationals are Beijing's plans to replicate foreign technologies and foster national champions that can take them global. A program launched in 2015, called Made in China 2025, aims to make the country competitive within a decade in 10 industries, including aircraft, new energy vehicles, and biotechnology. China, under Xi, aims not just to be the manufacturing centre of the global economy but also to take a lead in innovation and technology that will rival that of the US and other advanced capitalist economies within a generation.

...

And American imperialism is scared. U.S. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross has described the plan as an "attack" on "American genius." In an excellent new book, The US vs China: Asia's new cold war?, Jude Woodward, a regular visitor and lecturer in China, shows the desperate measures that the US is taking to try to isolate China, block its economic progress and surround it militarily. But she also shows this policy is failing. China is not accepting control by foreign multi-nationals; it is continually developing trade and investment links with the rest of Asia; and, with the exception of Abe's Japan, it is succeeding in keeping the Asian capitalist states ambivalent between China's 'butter' and America's 'arms'.' As a result, China has been able to maintain its independence from US imperialism and global capitalism like no other state.

This brings us to the question of whether China is a capitalist state or not? I think the majority of Marxist political economists agree with mainstream economics in assuming or accepting that China is. However, I am not one of them. China is not capitalist. Commodity production for profit, based on spontaneous market relations, governs capitalism. The rate of profit determines its investment cycles and generates periodic economic crises. This does not apply in China. In China, public ownership of the means of production and state planning remain dominant and the Communist party's power base is rooted in public ownership. So China's economic rise has been achieved without the capitalist mode of production being dominant.

China's "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is a weird beast. Of course, it is not 'socialism' by any Marxist definition or by any benchmark of democratic workers control. And there has been a significant expansion of privately-owned companies, both foreign and domestic over the last 30 years, with the establishment of a stock market and other financial institutions. But the vast majority of employment and investment is undertaken by publicly-owned companies or by institutions that are under the direction and control of the Communist party. The biggest part of China's world-beating industry is not foreign-owned multinationals, but Chinese state-owned enterprises.

And here I can provide some new evidence that, as far as I know, has not been noticed by any other commentators. Recently the IMF published a full data series on the size of public sector investment and its growth going back 50 years for every country in the world. This data delivers some startling results.

It shows that China has a stock of public sector assets worth 150% of annual GDP; only Japan has anything like that amount at 130%. Every other major capitalist economy has less than 50% of GDP in public assets. Every year, China's public investment to GDP is around 16% compared to 3-4% in the US and the UK. And here is the killer figure. There are nearly three times as much stock of public productive assets to private capitalist sector assets in China. In the US and the UK, public assets are less than 50% of private assets. Even in 'mixed economy' India or Japan, the ratio of public to private assets is no more than 75%. This shows that in China public ownership in the means of production is dominant – unlike any other major economy.

...

A report by the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission (http://www.uscc.gov/pressreleases/2011/11_10_26pr.pdf) found that "The state-owned and controlled portion of the Chinese economy is large. Based on reasonable assumptions, it appears that the visible state sector – SOEs and entities directly controlled by SOEs, accounted for more than 40% of China's non-agricultural GDP. If the contributions of indirectly controlled entities, urban collectives and public TVEs are considered, the share of GDP owned and controlled by the state is approximately 50%." The major banks are state-owned and their lending and deposit policies are directed by the government (much to the chagrin of China's central bank and other pro-capitalist elements). There is no free flow of foreign capital into and out of China. Capital controls are imposed and enforced and the currency's value is manipulated to set economic targets (much to the annoyance of the US Congress and Western hedge funds).

At the same time, the Communist party/state machine infiltrates all levels of industry and activity in China. According to a report by Joseph Fang and others (http://www.nber.org/papers/w17687), there are party organisations within every corporation that employs more than three communist party members. Each party organisation elects a party secretary. It is the party secretary who is the lynchpin of the alternative management system of each enterprise. This extends party control beyond the SOEs, partly privatised corporations and village or local government-owned enterprises into the private sector or "new economic organisations" as these are called. In 1999, only 3% of these had party cells. Now the figure is nearly 13%. As the paper puts it: "The Chinese Communist Party (CCP), by controlling the career advancement of all senior personnel in all regulatory agencies, all state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and virtually all major financial institutions state-owned enterprises (SOEs) and senior Party positions in all but the smallest non-SOE enterprises, retains sole possession of Lenin's Commanding Heights."

The reality is that almost all Chinese companies employing more than 100 people have an internal party cell-based control system. This is no relic of the Maoist era. It is the current structure set up specifically to maintain party control of the economy. As the Fang report says: "The CCP Organization Department manag(es) all senior promotions throughout all major banks, regulators, government ministries and agencies, SOEs, and even many officially designated non-SOE enterprises. The Party promotes people through banks,regulatory agencies, enterprises, governments, and Party organs, handling much of the national economy in one huge human resources management chart. An ambitious young cadre might begin in a government ministry, join middle management in an SOE bank, accept a senior Party position in a listed enterprise, accept promotion into a top regulatory position, accept appointment as a mayor or provincial governor, become CEO of a different SOE bank, and perhaps ultimately rise into upper echelons of the central government or CCP — all by the grace of the CCP OD."

China's Communist party is now writing itself into the articles of association of many of the country's biggest companies. describing the party as playing a core role in "an organised, institutionalised and concrete way" and "providing direction [and] managing the overall situation".

...

This also lends the lie to the common idea among some Marxist economists that China's export of capital to invest in projects abroad is the product of the need to absorb 'surplus capital' at home, similar to the export of capital by the capitalist economies before 1914 that Lenin presented as key feature of imperialism. China is not investing abroad through its state companies because of 'excess capital' or even because the rate of profit in state and capitalist enterprises has been falling.

Similarly, the great expansion of infrastructure investment after 2008 to counteract the impact of collapsing world trade from the global financial crisis and Great Recession hitting the major capitalist economies was no Keynesian-style government spending/borrowing, as mainstream and (some) Marxist economists argue. It was a state-directed and planned programme of investments by state corporation and funded by state-owned banks. This was proper 'socialised investment' as mooted by Keynes, but never implemented in capitalist economies during the Great Depression, because to do so would be to replace capitalism.

The law of value of the capitalist mode of production does operate in China, mainly through foreign trade and capital inflows, as well as through domestic markets for goods, services and funds. So the Chinese economy is affected by the law of value. That's not really surprising. You can't 'build socialism in one country' (and if a country is under an autocracy and not under workers democracy, that is true by definition). Globalisation and the law of value in world markets feed through to the Chinese economy. But the impact is 'distorted', 'curbed' and blocked by bureaucratic 'interference' from the state and the party structure to the point that it cannot yet dominate and direct the trajectory of the Chinese economy.

It is true that the inequality of wealth and income under China's 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' is very high. There are growing numbers of billionaires (many of whom are related to the Communist leaders). China's Gini coefficient, an index of income inequality, has risen from 0.30 in 1978 when the Communist Party began to open the economy to market forces to a peak of 0.49 just before the global recession. Indeed, China's Gini coefficient has risen more than any other Asian economy in the last two decades. This rise was partly the result of the urbanisation of the economy as rural peasants move to the cities. Urban wages in the sweatshops and factories are increasingly leaving peasant incomes behind (not that those urban wages are anything to write home about when workers assembling Apple i-pads are paid under $2 an hour).

But it is also partly the result of the elite controlling the levers of power and making themselves fat, while allowing some Chinese billionaires to flourish. Urbanisation has slowed since the Great Recession and so has economic growth – along with that the gini inequality index has fallen back a little.

The Chinese economy is partially protected from the law of value and the world capitalist economy. But the threat of the 'capitalist road' remains. Indeed, the IMF data show that, while public sector assets in China are still nearly twice the size of capitalist sector assets, the gap is closing.

Under Xi, it seems that the majority of the party elite will continue with an economic model that is dominated by state corporations directed at all levels by the Communist cadres. That is because even the elite realise that if the capitalist road is adopted and the law of value becomes dominant, it will expose the Chinese people to chronic economic instability (booms and slumps), insecurity of employment and income and greater inequalities.

On the other hand, Xi and the party elite are united in opposing socialist democracy as any Marxist would understand it. They wish to preserve their autocratic rule and the privileges that flow from it. The people have yet to play a role. They have fought local battles over the environment, their villages and their jobs and wages. But they have not fought for more democracy or economic power.

...

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2017/10/25/xi-takes-full-control-of-chinas-future/
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
About China i watched this video yesterday, Zizek says China is where the most brutal type of capitalism exists.

Its a interesting video he says that with automatization and stuff or we will have a socialist or communist society or we Will live in a dystopia like the Hollywood movies.
There's some stuff i dont agree, but he makes good points.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
I want to argue against the common, and collectevly agreed upon, notion that anarchism and socialism share too many similarities. I disagree strongly with how the political spectrum is layed out and its liberal centric views. All forms of government and non government should fall within the entirety of the spectrum. The best means to doing this is breaking the spectrum up by government overreach/control (control over the means of production) and level of optimism in the human spirit. The farthest left one could go would complete authority over and owership of a nation. This to me represents my preferred notion of socialism, though the manifesto speaks of many. The government is its people, it is classless, there exists collective ownership, though I am unsure if it is democratic. Other forms of government could be far left such as monarchies, oligarchies, etc where there is a strong centralized force directing the nation. The farther right you go the more limited the powers of government and thus a higher optimism in the human collective to organise themselves peacefully without intervention. Thus the farthest right one could go would be anarchism would it not? complete freedom and there exists the possiblity of collective ownership like in former more traditional canadian aboriginal hunter gatherer societies that existed before and during colonisation. Therefore socialism and anarchism can share similar ideals yet be exact opposites on the spectrum.

Id like feedback as Im still working on this idea, need to do more research, and ill probably being using it as a basis for my studies going forward.
 

Deleted member 721

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Oct 25, 2017
10,416
The political Spectrum is not a thing of more or less state.

For Norberto Bobbio:
"Left believes in attempting to eradicate social inequality, while the Right regards most social inequality as the result of ineradicable natural inequalities, and sees attempts to enforce social equality as utopian or authoritarian."

Bobbio, Norberto, Left and Right: The Significance of a Political Distinction(translated by Allan Cameron), 1997

Here you have to make a distinction between anarchism and anarch capitalism, while one is coletivist the other is individualist, while one wants to exterminate all types of authority, one wants to keep the economical authority.

And do not forget that a communist and anarchist society are very similars, both are stateless societies. The major difference is strategy while an anarchist wants to keep the revolution going until we arrive in this stateless society, the communist wants a transition thats socialist state.

Now to the original point is communism and anarchism Far right Now, since both are stateless societies, off course not. We want equality even without a state. While the right and an ancap wants to embrace this inequality.

I recommend these Bobbio book "left and right" and "General Theory of Politics"

(No he's not a communist)
 

Jeff6851

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
753
I know what Socialism is.

I'm more amused that compassionate policies are seen as Socialism in the neoliberal shitpit of America right now. It's actually dark, when you think about it.

Oh definitely. I saw a tweet the other day talking about how libraries would be seen as a ridiculous far left idea if they didn't already exist. It's amazing how little people here know about political theory.
 

Foofaraw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
770
Oh definitely. I saw a tweet the other day talking about how libraries would be seen as a ridiculous far left idea if they didn't already exist. It's amazing how little people here know about political theory.
Could you enlighten me on why this statement isn't true? I've just dipped my toes into socialist thought, and I suppose I don't understand enough to see why this statement is false.
 
OP
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sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Another couple of interesting articles, one by David Ruccio summarizing a study by Piketty, Novokmet, and Zucman, and a second article by Branko Milanovic that goes well with it about the pressure the USSR exerted on the west and its effect on inequality.

...

A new study of income and wealth data by Filip Novokmet, Thomas Piketty, Gabriel Zucman reveals just how much has changed in Russia from the time of the tsarist oligarchy through the Soviet Union to rise of the new oligarchy during and after the "shock therapy" that served to create a new form of private capitalism under Putin.

As is clear from the chart, income inequality was extremely high in Tsarist Russia, then dropped to very low levels during the Soviet period, and finally rose back to very high levels after the fall of the Soviet Union. Thus, for example, the top 1-percent income share was somewhat close to 20 percent in 1905, dropped to as little as 4-5 percent during the Soviet period, and rose spectacularly to 20-25 percent in recent decades.

r-top1.jpg


The data sets used by Novokmet et al. reveal a level of inequality under the new oligarchs that is much higher than was apparent using survey data—a top 1-percent income share that is more than double for 2007-08.

r-top1-1980.jpg


Novokmet et al. also show that the income shares of the top 10 percent and the bottom 50 percent moved in exactly opposite directions after the privatization of Russian state capitalism in the early 1990s. While the top 10-percent income share rose from less than 25 percent in 1990-1991 to more than 45 percent in 1996, the share of the bottom 50 percent collapsed, dropping from about 30 percent of total income in 1990-1991 to less than 10 percent in 1996, before gradually returning to 15 percent by 1998 and about 18 percent by 2015.

r-shares.jpg


In comparison to other countries, Russia was much more equal during the Soviet period and, by 2015, had approached a level of inequality higher than that of France and comparable only to that of the United States.

Finally, Novokmet et al. have been able to estimate the enormous growth of private wealth under the new oligarchy, especially the wealth that was captured by a tiny group at the very top and is now owned by Russia's billionaires. As the authors explain,

"The number of Russian billionaires—as registered in international rankings such as the Forbes list—is extremely high by international standards. According to Forbes, total billionaire wealth was very small in Russia in the 1990s, increased enormously in the early 2000s, and stabilized around 25-40% of national income between 2005 and 2015 (with large variations due to the international crisis and the sharp fall of the Russian stock market after 2008). This is much larger than the corresponding numbers in Western countries: Total billionaire wealth represents between 5% and 15% of national income in the United States, Germany and France in 2005-2015 according to Forbes, despite the fact that average income and average wealth are much higher than in Russia. This clearly suggests that wealth concentration at the very top is significantly higher in Russia than in other countries."

billionaires.jpg


Clearly, there is nothing "natural" about the distribution of income and the ownership of wealth. This new study demonstrates that different economic structures and political events create fundamentally different levels of inequality in both income and wealth, both within and between countries.

...
http://www.socialisteconomist.com/2017/10/how-ussr-radically-reduced-income.html?m=1

And I'll just link the Milanovic article since I otherwise would have quoted the entire thing. The gist of it is that there's good reason to believe the idea that the existence of the USSR helped equalize capitalism and that without a strong countervailing force we will continue to see capitalist countries eat themselves with inequality.

http://glineq.blogspot.com/2015/08/did-socialism-keep-capitalism-equal_52.html?m=1
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
That's a really good point. Socialists and left-leaning people in general can get just as dogmatic as anyone. I always keep questioning myself and trying to look at issues from multiple points of view, which I think is inherent to being an anarchist. IMO, in order for the movements to make any stride we must foster open and free discourse and avoid dogmatic thinking. I swear for some socialists Marx is as infallible as a messiah.
The far-left as a whole is pretty fucked (but a necessary force in society otherwise I wouldn't be part of it), even some of the best parties doing genuinely good work out there around the world are held back by their ridiculous sectarianism and dogmatism. My philosophy is and always will be - that we always seek to work in ways that involve the greatest amount of people around united action, I mean a problem with liberalism and sectarian practices of far-left groups is they aren't interested in empowering everyday people to take political action, for the liberals it's always appealing to the minority the self-appointment-ed bureaucrats and experts, for the sectarian socialists it's either their party dominating the struggle and no-one else.

You have cases of parties who refuse to work together because one of them has a line on the Cuban revolution that they believe to be incorrect, and then I've had experiences where in movements they are two different socialist parties that are always looking to one-up each other, whether it's in getting one of their people on the speaking platform of a rally, or recruiting a new member before the other one does. It's pretty intense! and then you have the existence of absolutely insane groups (that appear to exist everywhere in the world) like the Socialist Equality Party/WSW and the sprats!

In terms of conflict with anarchists from my personal experience as a socialist, I've found anarchists are no different from socialists in that regard, they are friendly anarchists who are always open to collaboration and they are hostile ones that are always looking to pick a fight with you over your position on the October Revolution or accuse you of being a authoritarian because you favor democratic centralism over consensus based decision making or whatever!
 

Jeff6851

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
753
Could you enlighten me on why this statement isn't true? I've just dipped my toes into socialist thought, and I suppose I don't understand enough to see why this statement is false.

It's still just using tax money to run it. Socialism can't coexist with capitalism because the way they are structured are completely different (worker control vs private ownership). Even publicly owned utilities aren't socialist. However, while things like libraries, public services and universal healthcare aren't specifically socialist, especially in a capitalist society, they are still good to have.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
The political Spectrum is not a thing of more or less state.

For Norberto Bobbio:
"Left believes in attempting to eradicate social inequality, while the Right regards most social inequality as the result of ineradicable natural inequalities, and sees attempts to enforce social equality as utopian or authoritarian."

Bobbio, Norberto, Left and Right: The Significance of a Political Distinction(translated by Allan Cameron), 1997

Here you have to make a distinction between anarchism and anarch capitalism, while one is coletivist the other is individualist, while one wants to exterminate all types of authority, one wants to keep the economical authority.

And do not forget that a communist and anarchist society are very similars, both are stateless societies. The major difference is strategy while an anarchist wants to keep the revolution going until we arrive in this stateless society, the communist wants a transition thats socialist state.

Now to the original point is communism and anarchism Far right Now, since both are stateless societies, off course not. We want equality even without a state. While the right and an ancap wants to embrace this inequality.

I recommend these Bobbio book "left and right" and "General Theory of Politics"

(No he's not a communist)

I still feel thats liberal centric specifically Burkes notion that there is a natural hierarchy between man. If i get the time ill look into the research you provided and i now better understand the seperation between those two anarchist forms so thankyou. But couldnt a collective anarchy still be considered far left in way from what ive described? Sure there is no formal government but a collective is still a contract that presides over everyone. A anarcho capitalist society would inevitably lead towards an oligarchy though imo

Regular anarchy there exists no social contract. I hadnt really inquired about anarchism in this way though so thankyou
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Michael Roberts has an interesting take on the elevation of Xi Jinping Thought in China and how it relates to the economy; he makes the argument that China is neither primarily capitalist nor socialist but some kind of unnamed hybrid. I'm not sure I agree with that analysis but it's interesting food for thought.



https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2017/10/25/xi-takes-full-control-of-chinas-future/
...I think I need to better understand his definition of "public" here, particularly as he characterizes "public ownership" and "public investment" in China. It reads like he's conflating public ownership with state ownership regardless of the character of the state, which...I think I must be misreading