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KingFrost92

Member
Oct 26, 2017
980
Oregon
****Spoiler warning for the whole series****

For the last year, I've spent random weekends binge watching seasons of The Sopranos. I'd watch a season, then take a break for a month or two before digging into the next. As someone who was very young when this show started (I was 6 in 1999), I was completely blind to all the cultural significance of this show, as well as nearly all of the spoilers aside from the fact that the ending was controversial. At the end, I'm glad I stayed away from Google during my time watching this, because WOW some of the twists and turns in this show rival and exceed some of my personal favorite "oh shit" moments in fiction.

I often see The Sopranos cited by a lot of right-wing people in my life as "a real man's show," specifically regarding the attitude of the main character Tony Soprano (If I remember correctly, I think there's a conservative talk show host in my area that uses key art of Tony in his advertising, as well as a few people I've seen online). Some people see his machismo, actions before words, and refusal to get in touch with his emotions as a positive mindset that gets things done, which is funny because I interpreted the entire thesis of the show as the creators deconstructing that mindset and showing how much it hurts the people around Tony. I think the people in my life that have recommended the show to me almost missed the point of it entirely, which is super interesting.

It's a tough show to talk about, mostly because I have a hard time remembering specific episodes aside from the standouts here and there (College, Pine Barrens, the finale). The show exceeds in making really interesting characters and having significant moments for them that spark conversation, but none of those stories really affect the central plot of the show and the actual mob family. I'd say that the actual mafia content in this show is the worst part of it aside from some stunning, violent moments. I was way more interested in stuff like Christopher battling his addiction and making movies, Tony's kids growing up, Steve Buscemi's character trying to start up his own business, and Adriana managing her club...really, any story involving people trying to get away from the mob was really absorbing for me. The human drama is very similar to soap opera storylines (especially Tony and Carm), just executed way better than those types of shows.

And boy, what an ending! I watched the last four episodes in one sitting, and from Christopher's death to that end, I was enthralled in a way that's only been rivaled by a few other shows. I can't imagine how much talk there was around how the series ended. I knew it was weird, but that cut to black? I didn't expect that. I was pretty put off until reading up on it more and understanding that quote, "You probably don't even hear it." It makes sense, but I guess Tony's not dead according to David Chase?: https://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6006139/did-tony-die-at-the-end-of-the-sopranos

Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling but after that finale I had to put some thoughts down. Shame that Gandolfini died when he did, since he's just as awesome an actor in every else I've seen him in. I'm sure most here have seen the show considering how huge it was, but I'd highly recommend you watch it if you haven't. Seeing Christopher's intervention scene was what got me to start it:
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Sweden
great series

since this is always what comes up first, i don't think he died at the end

i think what the creators wanted to show with the last scene was that he had created a life for himself where any moment COULD be his last

even at a family dinner, he is aware that anyone who enters the diner COULD be his killer

and that is something he has to live with for the rest of his life

the final scene is there to put us into the head of someone having to live with that reality
 

Deleted member 11093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,095
Binged the entire thing in a month during Feb-March. Worth.it.

And yeah it's no surprise that right wingers love it, even though, you know, Tony and his crew are everything a man shouldn't actually be, but yeah, shitty dumb people relate to shitty dumb people, I could actually see Tony and Carm voting for Trump too.

Everyone on the show was a sociopath but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't like Paulie. Heh.

 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,984
It can't be stated enough how revolutionary this show was when it originally aired. There was nothing else like it-not just for its violence and "mature content" but in terms of "modernizing" what television storytelling could achieve. All great modern drama television can be traced back to the Sopranos.

Also if anyone is idealizing Tony's morals or actions then they're missing a key part of the show. It reminds me of when people who watched the show would complain that no one had been "whacked" in a few episodes, or that the therapy scenes were "boring".

Tony's dreams and his therapy sessions were some of the best moments for me.
 
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OP
KingFrost92

KingFrost92

Member
Oct 26, 2017
980
Oregon
great series

since this is always what comes up first, i don't think he died at the end

i think what the creators wanted to show with the last scene was that he had created a life for himself where any moment COULD be his last

even at a family dinner, he is aware that anyone who enters the diner COULD be his killer

and that is something he has to live with for the rest of his life

But man, that quote they bring up the episode before about not being able to hear a gunshot when you die, that REALLY makes it seem like they mean for that to be his death. This interpretation is really interesting though, and I think that actually works better as an ending than his death, I just would never have gotten that from watching the show without looking anything else up. The "discourse" over this show is really fascinating to look back at as someone who never caught any of it when it was actually airing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Sweden
I often see The Sopranos cited by a lot of right-wing people in my life as "a real man's show," specifically regarding the attitude of the main character Tony Soprano (If I remember correctly, I think there's a conservative talk show host in my area that uses key art of Tony in his advertising, as well as a few people I've seen online). Some people see his machismo, actions before words, and refusal to get in touch with his emotions as a positive mindset that gets things done, which is funny because I interpreted the entire thesis of the show as the creators deconstructing that mindset and showing how much it hurts the people around Tony. I think the people in my life that have recommended the show to me almost missed the point of it entirely, which is super interesting.
yeah, the show is pretty much a dissertation on toxic masculinity

people who see tony as a role model are missing the point spectacularly
 

Xythantiops

Member
Oct 27, 2017
703
I've been slowly watching this show since 09 and finally finished it a few weeks ago. Glad I did.

Also, the PAX network edit parody always cracks me up.



Edit:

Speaking about the ending. I think he was killed. Although I think it would have worked better if the final shot was seeing Meadow walk through the door from Tony's perspective.
 
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OP
KingFrost92

KingFrost92

Member
Oct 26, 2017
980
Oregon
It can't be stated enough how revolutionary this show was when it originally aired. There was nothing else like it-not just for its violence and "mature content" but in terms of "modernizing" what television storytelling could achieve. All great modern drama television can be traced back to the Sopranos.

Also if anyone is idealizing Tony's morals or actions then they're missing a key part of the show. It reminds me of when people who watched the show would complain that no one had been "whacked" in a few episodes, or that the therapy scenes were "boring".

Tony's dreams and his therapy sessions were some of the best moments for me.

The dream sequence at the beginning of season 6 where we see Tony as a mild-mannered salesperson was one of my favorite sequences in the show. All the dream sequences were eerily close to how my thought processes work when I have dreams like that, almost reminded me of a David Lynch movie.
 
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OP
KingFrost92

KingFrost92

Member
Oct 26, 2017
980
Oregon
I've been slowly watching this show since 09 and finally finished it a few weeks ago. Glad I did.

Also, the PAX network edit parody always cracks me up.



Edit:

Speaking about the ending. I think he was killed. Although I think it would have worked better if the final shot was seeing Meadow walk through the door from Tony's perspective.


I've never liked a lot of what I've seen from Mad TV, but that is actually really funny. Surprised how close a lot of those actors look to the actual roles being played. I honestly forgot that PAX Network was even a thing, and never knew that their whole thing was editing out violence, language, etc.
 

giancarlo123x

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,401
Binged it last year with my girlfriend. I already knew the ending but nothing before it and nab what a ride. Easily my favorite show of all time. Also watching goodfellas again years after my first time made it better post sopranos. It's cool recognizing young Chris and many other actors from the show.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
This will be the line I use if I ever get invited to an intervention!

"I don't write nothin' down, so I'll keep this short and sweet. You're weak. You're outta control. And you've become an embarrassment to yourself and everybody else."
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,055
The Sopranos and Oz really sparked this TV golden age we're in. Still one of the best shows ever. I never get bored re watching it.
 

rezn0r

Member
Oct 25, 2017
750
Pine Barrens (post #3) is one of my favorite episodes in entertainment. I probably liked The Wire & Breaking Bad a little bit more, but Pine Barrens stands next to the best that those series offer too.
 

Redmond Barry

Member
Nov 24, 2017
888
Meadow: It's the 90s. Parents are supposed to discuss sex with their children.

Tony: Yeah, but that's where you're wrong. You see out there it's the 1990s but in this house it's 1954.

A line that always stuck in my head. Perfectly encapsulates Tony's worldview, and not just on the matter of open discussions of sex at the dinner table. Cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy are the tools of the wise guy, and upholding and reconstructing the half-forgotten, highly romanticized era he grew up in one of his principal goals. Carmella, for instance, is to be a dutiful and faithful housewife who maintains and observes the family religion, while Tony is free to fuck who he pleases and kill, steal, and bribe when he deems necessary, which is always. Fascinating stuff. It's no wonder that dullards pining for the Good Ol' Days see in Tony Soprano a kindred spirit, an unlikely ally to keep the forces of modernity at bay. Sounds familiar.

That being said, despite the (predictable) misunderstandings of some, it is a fantastic show. Tony Soprano in particular is such a phenomenal three-dimensional character, a tortured and conflicted soul seeking help and often fighting against the cycle of violence he has found himself in all the while enjoying the sense of comfort and power it gives him.
 

Malleymal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,308
My favorite part is Christopher's child's christening where they play "evidently Chickentown" while panning around the church... my favorite scene of the whole show.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,450
It can't be stated enough how revolutionary this show was when it originally aired. There was nothing else like it-not just for its violence and "mature content" but in terms of "modernizing" what television storytelling could achieve. All great modern drama television can be traced back to the Sopranos.

Also if anyone is idealizing Tony's morals or actions then they're missing a key part of the show. It reminds me of when people who watched the show would complain that no one had been "whacked" in a few episodes, or that the therapy scenes were "boring".

Tony's dreams and his therapy sessions were some of the best moments for me.

.

A line that always stuck in my head. Perfectly encapsulates Tony's worldview, and not just on the matter of open discussions of sex at the dinner table. Cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy are the tools of the wise guy, and upholding and reconstructing the half-forgotten, highly romanticized era he grew up in one of his principal goals. Carmella, for instance, is to be a dutiful and faithful housewife who maintains and observes the family religion, while Tony is free to fuck who he pleases and kill, steal, and bribe when he deems necessary, which is always. Fascinating stuff. It's no wonder that dullards pining for the Good Ol' Days see in Tony Soprano a kindred spirit, an unlikely ally to keep the forces of modernity at bay. Sounds familiar.

That being said, despite the (predictable) misunderstandings of some, it is a fantastic show. Tony Soprano in particular is such a phenomenal three-dimensional character, a tortured and conflicted soul seeking help and often fighting against the cycle of violence he has found himself in all the while enjoying the sense of comfort and power it gives him.

I mean Paul Castellano and Thomas Billoti got gunned down outside of Sparks Steakhouse in 1985. Let's not pretend as though the glory days were half a century before.
 
Last edited:

joedick

Member
Mar 19, 2018
1,386
I watched the entire series on and off last year. I loved the ending, and loved it even more after I read this. (It looks long, but it's mostly comments).
 

AndreGX

GameXplain
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,815
San Francisco
I just started watching a few weeks ago and am halfway through S4--loving it so far. But I'm going to avoid reading the thread for spoilers (even though I just saw one above, damn it!). But I needed a place to post this image. There's no way these businesses actually exist right? It looks like they just slapped the names on in Paint and it's driving me crazy

DcfGn5TUwAEx1M0.jpg:large
 

Deleted member 18161

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,805
The greatest TV show of all time for me. So many great characters, so many great lines. The humour was also fantastic.
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,454
Every now and then I watch some clips on YouTube for a laugh. Tony's bewildered responses to his son or whatever Paulie and Silvio are babbling about never ceases to entertain

Excellent drama too. Plenty of characters with depth in here, and to top it off you get to dive into Tony's mind a bit more with the therapy scenes. As you see him try to justify his violence, hypocrisy and attitudes towards his family and friends.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504
That show is one of the best. It's something to hear people referring to it as a man's show. I can see why some would think that, but if anything, it's a show about a bunch of depressed ass dudes who can't truly confide in each other or anyone else (except for tony and even he holds back). Wonderful show nonetheless. Other than the wire, it's probably one of my favorites. About to finish another watch through with the wife.


OZ is good until the last couple of seasons. It's also great because of the familiar faces you'll notice.

Love Oz, but damn it goes off the rails later on. I used to watch it in secret as a kid. I know it's a show, but it kept my ass from ever wanting to get locked up.
 

Deleted member 9237

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,789
I also recently finished the series, don't figure it's worth making my own thread. Caught some stray episodes now and then when it aired, but never watched it consistently.

First of all, I will say that I recognise that it's a very well made show, extremely well acted and certainly something that stands out in the era it aired. However, in the end I didn't enjoy it all that much.

Let's begin with Tony. He's a piece of shit human being, and I have no idea what the show runners wanted me to feel when he was in that coma. They dragged it out forever, as if though I should be worried or feel sorry for him, which I found baffling. I'm sure that some people do sympathise with him, and I did in the beginning as well, but the show makes it clear that he is absolutely irredeemable, as are most of the characters (Bobby is maybe the only exception). In the end I simply found him exhausting to watch, constantly throwing tantrums, and the only real character growth he has comes as a result of him being shot, despite being in therapy the whole show. If his family knew the extent of his actions they'd probably kill him themselves.

Out of his immediate family, Carmela is the only the show seems to care about doing anything with, and even then she never really gets to do anything except argue with Tony. Both of the kids frequently get less screen time than Tony's side chicks, have most of their character development off screen, and only exist for Tony to be upset with. The same is true for pretty much everyone else as well, except Ade and Christopher, which is the one plotline I think the show actually does well, and even though I knew she'd die it's a very well executed scene.

The first half of the show felt too predictable in some ways I thought. You have this pain in the ass guy Mikey, the whole time you're just waiting for him to get got, and he does. Season two, Richie Aprile shows up and it's clear from the get go that there is no way this guy will end up as anything other than a corpse, yet they take the whole freaking season to get there. Same thing with Feech (well, he didn't die), Ralphie and Tony Blundetto. Of course, the specifics of how those deaths play out are quite different and also surprising, but the end results were the same.

Another structural issue I have is how the show drops so many things. For example, Ralphie's murder, it's bad that Tony murders a captain, but in the end it's a non-issue. The Ukrainian guy in the forest, does Tony ever interact with his friend again who seemingly managed his off shore funds? Tony being a gambling addict for one episode, really? The black guys with the music label in New York? The people in Naples only ever mentioned again when they need some hitmen? There's more that I'm not thinking of now, I'm quite sure. Now, the point isn't that every thing needs to tie into every other thing, but I felt that there was a lack of long term plotting, and very few event that seemed significant ever were.

In the end, I guess my main problem with the show is how tiring it gets to watch these complete sociopaths repeat the same heinous shit over and over. Somebody owes somebody money, let's go kill him / beat him up / whatever. Yes you have all these well shot, well acted and well written scenes, but fuck all those people. It's not just the criminals either, Junior and Tony's mom are insufferable too. Janice as well, until she "grows" overnight by taking an anger management course. You might say "why watch any crime drama then?" and for me I think the answer is that you can a) make criminals that are redeemable, or b) use them to tell interesting stories (see: The Wire) and c) that it's something I can put up with for a while, but it gets oppressing at some point. Tony never changes, he just complains. The most he ever does it to stop cheating on Carmela in the 6th season, too little too late. Like I said, I thought the Ade / Christopher story was well told for the most part, but to me that was an exception.

I'm happy to read some rebuttals.
 

f0rk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,697
As well as the right wing misunderstandings it feels like there's a lot of fetishizing of mob life and violence in general (majority of the clips on YouTube seem to be X whacks Y for example) by the audience. The show also acknowledges this with some of the 'outsider' characters looking like idiots talking about 'beautiful hits' around the dinner table.
 

BMW

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
I also recently finished the series, don't figure it's worth making my own thread. Caught some stray episodes now and then when it aired, but never watched it consistently.

First of all, I will say that I recognise that it's a very well made show, extremely well acted and certainly something that stands out in the era it aired. However, in the end I didn't enjoy it all that much.

Let's begin with Tony. He's a piece of shit human being, and I have no idea what the show runners wanted me to feel when he was in that coma. They dragged it out forever, as if though I should be worried or feel sorry for him, which I found baffling. I'm sure that some people do sympathise with him, and I did in the beginning as well, but the show makes it clear that he is absolutely irredeemable, as are most of the characters (Bobby is maybe the only exception). In the end I simply found him exhausting to watch, constantly throwing tantrums, and the only real character growth he has comes as a result of him being shot, despite being in therapy the whole show. If his family knew the extent of his actions they'd probably kill him themselves.

Out of his immediate family, Carmela is the only the show seems to care about doing anything with, and even then she never really gets to do anything except argue with Tony. Both of the kids frequently get less screen time than Tony's side chicks, have most of their character development off screen, and only exist for Tony to be upset with. The same is true for pretty much everyone else as well, except Ade and Christopher, which is the one plotline I think the show actually does well, and even though I knew she'd die it's a very well executed scene.

The first half of the show felt too predictable in some ways I thought. You have this pain in the ass guy Mikey, the whole time you're just waiting for him to get got, and he does. Season two, Richie Aprile shows up and it's clear from the get go that there is no way this guy will end up as anything other than a corpse, yet they take the whole freaking season to get there. Same thing with Feech (well, he didn't die), Ralphie and Tony Blundetto. Of course, the specifics of how those deaths play out are quite different and also surprising, but the end results were the same.

Another structural issue I have is how the show drops so many things. For example, Ralphie's murder, it's bad that Tony murders a captain, but in the end it's a non-issue. The Ukrainian guy in the forest, does Tony ever interact with his friend again who seemingly managed his off shore funds? Tony being a gambling addict for one episode, really? The black guys with the music label in New York? The people in Naples only ever mentioned again when they need some hitmen? There's more that I'm not thinking of now, I'm quite sure. Now, the point isn't that every thing needs to tie into every other thing, but I felt that there was a lack of long term plotting, and very few event that seemed significant ever were.

In the end, I guess my main problem with the show is how tiring it gets to watch these complete sociopaths repeat the same heinous shit over and over. Somebody owes somebody money, let's go kill him / beat him up / whatever. Yes you have all these well shot, well acted and well written scenes, but fuck all those people. It's not just the criminals either, Junior and Tony's mom are insufferable too. Janice as well, until she "grows" overnight by taking an anger management course. You might say "why watch any crime drama then?" and for me I think the answer is that you can a) make criminals that are redeemable, or b) use them to tell interesting stories (see: The Wire) and c) that it's something I can put up with for a while, but it gets oppressing at some point. Tony never changes, he just complains. The most he ever does it to stop cheating on Carmela in the 6th season, too little too late. Like I said, I thought the Ade / Christopher story was well told for the most part, but to me that was an exception.

I'm happy to read some rebuttals.

I prefer media with broken characters.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,363
As well as the right wing misunderstandings it feels like there's a lot of fetishizing of mob life and violence in general (majority of the clips on YouTube seem to be X whacks Y for example) by the audience. The show also acknowledges this with some of the 'outsider' characters looking like idiots talking about 'beautiful hits' around the dinner table.
Reading the youtube comments of some of those videos is depressing considering how much of the show is pretty much an attack on what gets categorized as 'toxic' male attitudes and hypocrisies.

Like Tony is hard. He's the epitome of machoism. So these guys latch onto this and see him as a model or whaver. But he's also extremely vulnerable and has mother issues. He's needy and manipulative. He falls in love with his therapist cause she fills a role for him his mother could not. He's got all these traits that are signifiers of weakness.

This is why I find him compelling. Why I think he's a great character. A portrait of very damaged 'maleness'. Wants to be Gary Cooper but is falling apart on the inside all the time trying to reach that ideal.
 

Ryder9

Alt account
Banned
May 26, 2018
652
Tony literally sounds like a baby at times, hell Gandolfini said he hated playing the character by the end.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
Been doing a rewatch of season 1. It's weird to me how the show is kind of presented as a lighthearted gangster spoof (basing most of this on the previously-on and preview segments), juxtaposed to what the show ended up becoming. I mean sure, there's still funny moments throughout the show, but it's not packaged with that lighthearted/playful music in the previews in the later seasons.
 

BMW

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
Reading the youtube comments of some of those videos is depressing considering how much of the show is pretty much an attack on what gets categorized as 'toxic' male attitudes and hypocrisies.

Like Tony is hard. He's the epitome of machoism. So these guys latch onto this and see him as a model or whaver. But he's also extremely vulnerable and has mother issues. He's needy and manipulative. He falls in love with his therapist cause she fills a role for him his mother could not. He's got all these traits that are signifiers of weakness.

This is why I find him compelling. Why I think he's a great character. A portrait of very damaged 'maleness'. Wants to be Gary Cooper but is falling apart on the inside all the time trying to reach that ideal.

Really well said.