So there should be no problem at all, yar? Even if this "militant, left-wing hug box" game are what people want in this thread, and even if it actually came into existence, can't you just play other games out there that are to your taste?
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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In what way was the quoted part hurtful? I simply stated a fact, while I can admit that it does not include everything. Humans, including men are visual creatures and visual features is one of the first aspects a human, especially a man notices on dialogue partner. Generally it is to assume that wide hips indicate good child birth and bigger breasts indicate good feeding of a child. This is ancient psychology as far as I am informed.
Of course women value visual attraction as well, wide shoulders, height and muscular build are the features considered positive in the ancient instinct.
Which boils down to men simply being a better target demographic due to ancient instincts of visual attraction and predator-like spreading of their seed. Today these things might manifest differently in statistics, I currently have no up to date ones.
I would kindly request for you to actually refute my point and not just post a gif and laugh at me. =)
Put both into dumb, sexual costumes. Equality for everybody, I have nothing against this.
I like playing games with fanservice and saying those games are childish is exactly the reason why so many fall back to the argument that women want to get rid of fanservice all together.
Therefore equal treatment, I simply won't buy games with female fanservice as I am not interested in it.
Fanservice and Sexualisation has its place. What I am against is illogical fanservice and Sexualisation, people mentioned Quiet's skin breathing as an example.
Insercurity is probably partly right. But that is my personal reason as I would nobody else trust to make the right decision on this important matter.
I am for equality and fair representation, therefore I trust myself to make the right decision. I would never write a character like Quiet and use "breathing through skin" for skimpy outfits. I would include skimpy outfits because of skimpy outfits.
Guess slippery slope plays a role too, most men don't want it to rush to far and remove every "sexual" content from everywhere. Even if women in general only want more respect and respectful characters that match the tone, atmosphere and environment of the game scenario.
Critic works the best if you can expect the other side to be respectful, thoughtful and intelligent. Sometimes I am wondering that in discussions on this forum. =/
If I am posting something I sometimes fear that people will just quote me with gifs or scream at me without refuting what I said or why I am wrong. =(
Doesn't help that I am still unsure what gets you banned on this forum... .
In the end I am all for great female characters without even a hint of fanservice or any sexual thing whatsoever as long as fanservice still has its place in other games. =)
For example, a game like "Horizon Zero Dawn" doesn't need fanservice and it would look out of place while also being disrespectful. Contrary it is totally okay in Senran Kagura or Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball for example. Just because this game includes doesn't mean that women are worth less or people should treat women differently.
Fiction and Reality are different just like Thought and Action.
Just make the general outfits respectful for everybody involved and include the skimpy outfits for everybody as a secondary outfit. Now everybody should be happy and everybody gets a choice.
I know this poster is tempbanned but I missed this and I'm gonna take a second to say that costumes in DR3 played for laughs aren't the same as a long history of sexualizing women and uh, also, that's a Left 4 Dead 2 mod. So like. I guess you didn't either?funny you assume i'm a man? also you must have never played DR3?
Yeah, let's just alienate a whole bunch of potential players for the sake of some juvenile titillation
Ok, so we apparently have an issue here, maybe it's on my part. I asked about "Liking scantily clad women" not "the widespread depiction of women in scantily clad ways in games that are otherwise not about being sexy". While not exactly the topic it's certainly related. Especially when defining the point of becoming sexist, and further expanding it beyond having unhealthy attitudes about women or their representations. Specifically applying it to anyone who enjoys certain sexualized depictions regardless of whether they recognize and share the desire for more varied depictions of women in games.
There are, but I'd love for you to explain why this one is somehow invalid? Not the prominence or it, that's well covered. Why does it's existence in games seem like something you're viewing as illegitimate?
Hey personally I'm all for skimpy outfits for everyone. If what you suggested was the norm in most games, I don't think this thread would exist (personally).
Because one is porn and/or niche, and the other is supposed to be "for everyone."
(Gaming is supposed to be for everyone, or that's what the goal is for many people.)
Define "suffer" if your perception of "suffering" includes occasionally and involuntarily seeing scantily clad pixels in a videogame, then I strongly suggest you re-evaluate your life and seek professional help.
Love is not that difficult. If it has to be forced, it's not love. It generally comes from some other place. Regardless, however, it is not your place to tell others how to fight for what they believe - a move that also does not come from a place of love, but rather one of condescension.
You're seriously over here parroting an entire movement to a 32-page thread of back-and-forth discussion of where the lines are drawn regarding sexualization in video games and your response is hivemind?
Well, you tried. I guess.
If you'd like to step up with any sort of... content... evidence... anything other than an alt-right party line about hugboxes and outrage, I'm sure the discourse would be welcome.
All I'm really getting from you is that you're okay with people having problems as long as it's one that doesn't affect you.
You're really not a good fit for this community, or "hivemind" as you put it.
What happened to the oh-so vaunted "tolerance" that you keep trying to preach? So, it dosen't extend to videogames, then?
You mean you think I should be up for a ban because you can't deal with others opinions? Not much has really changed from that other place, huh?
Once more, this isn't an issue of 'scantily clad pixels' as you so eloquently put it. This is something that has essentially been hardwired into gaming since the very beginning, and only now are women pushing back. But then people like you consider it a crime that said women are fighting back against sexualization in character designs.
Gee, when you just waltz in here and start spewing shit opinions that are reductive to the entire discussion that is being had, you probably do deserve a ban. Especially when you throw out the typical buzzwords of your ilk.
Ah yes, tolerating the sexualization of our bodies to a point where we aren't treated like human beings and are instead defined by our boobs and/or ass.
And don't we dare call that out either or else we're being 'unfair' or 'making a big deal out of nothing'!
That's the hilarious part of it all. If you aren't going to argue in good faith and instead revert to pretty clear GG talking points, why the fuck should we bother?
I would do it that way. Other men aren't that respectful or use simple marketing tactics to increase sales because skimpy outfits can increase sales, which is the reason fanservice games are a "thing" to begin with.
Generally I think it would make more sense to compile a list of all games where you consider the presentation not respectful and make your argument based on the list. If you include Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball or Senran Kagura then you should rethink this list as these obviously count as fanservice and never strived for "respectful presentation" to begin with. But mentioning Quiet for example or maybe Cindy is a fair point. Criticize why you view it as respectful and how you want it to be addressed. I would probably include a second outfit for all characters that is skimpy and can be switched on the fly for everybody. This way you get this issue out of the way and everybody should be happy.
I can admit that I personally have nothing against the outfit Cindy wears but I can understand why some women might find it disrespectful and would like a different outfit as a choice so they can enjoy the game better.
In the same vein, I believe I have seen a gender swapped Senran Kagura and I fully support it even though I will never buy it. Total female fanservice and can get as disrespectful as they want it to be, I have no problem with this.
Probably way late but:
Even though I enjoy fanservice it is obvious that you are wrong. There is enough place for respectful representation of all genders and races in gaming while keeping fanservice in other games as well.
As I mentioned above, simply provide an option for people that need skimpy outfits in serious stories.
Edit: His comment about Japanese games gives people that enjoy Japanese games a bad name. I enjoy Japanese games with tones of fanservice but I will play respectful and serious titles as well. Really would appreciate it if people would not think of Japanese games as only fanservice or only being disrespectful of women.
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Love is extremely difficult. I didn't mean to condescend. I want to help.
You know Spike is gonna brag on VOAT about how he "outraged" us, like he wasn't even subtle about that shit.
I'm not trying to preach tolerance in the slightest, dood. I'm happy and proud to be vividly intolerant of misogyny and sexism!
I think your heart is probably in the right place but have you considered how it looks to come into a thread about female representation, a thread with a lot of women participants, with that message? Women are so often taught to never stop smiling, never get angry, to always consider other people's feelings and value them over their own. When you come in here saying we should swallow our feelings and just love more, it's insulting. That strategy has not worked for thousands of years and I'm not convinced it'll start now.
I know he's banned and was trolling to some degree but it really saddens me to know how many people legitimately hold those opinions.
Seems pretty reasonable that sexism is something we should strive to keep from perpetuating in gaming.. especially considering how prevalent it is across a wide range of genres.
Seems pretty reasonable that sexism is something we should strive to keep from perpetuating in gaming.. especially considering how prevalent it is across a wide range of genres.
Meh, I think the whole "be respectful and speak the way you want to be addressed: thing is overrated, because too often people think "emotionless = logic," and it's used as a way to criticize. This is an online forum, not a scientific paper. People get upset, feelings and emotions are real and important.
Heh, bless their hearts.
Mentioning voat reminded me of something.
voat: internet communities :: hentai flash games: videogames
:( didn't think about that.
I just want the message to get through. That helps me understand a bit why I was met with hostility.
Well, human society is build on sexism (ancient instincts, etc. ). If we can reduce it and add respectful representation of all races and genders then we made a big step forward in cultural evolution.
Never understood how people come to the conclusion that women should always smile. Why would they anyway? Is somehow an angry woman not beautiful or crying woman not beautiful anymore? Women are human too, they can show every emotion they want to.
love is a nebulous thing and means different things to different people. so it's pretty trite to hope that love somehow conquers sexism.
criticism and activism are probably the best tools we have to affect change in something that's so deeply ingrained into our society. and the way approaches to those two things are going to be as varied and diverse and the people participating in them.
criticism and activism are probably the best tools we have to affect change in something that's so deeply ingrained into our society. and the way approaches to those two things are going to be as varied and diverse and the people participating in them.
I don't want that to be my message. I simply mean that we always need to try. Not women. People. It's one of the defining factors of my life. I firmly believe that love concurs all. The condescension I exhibited came firmly from a place of ignorance but I wholeheartedly still believe that love is the most important and powerful thing to make positive change.
Well, you actually pretty much did; I asked flatly if liking scantily clad women was sexist and you told me to go read the op to see how it's sexist, which is why I sought to clarify.
Criticism and activism are not separate from love though! Love is the foundation of most of the best criticism and activism of all time.
Simply screaming you are treated wrong doesn't help much either. I prefer a good argumentation over somebody screaming into my face. I understand there is a time and place to raise your voice louder then argumentation though.
Feelings and emotions are important but I always urge people to keep a cool head and calm themself before they say something they might regret later on. I did this too, I actually revised my post after calming down a little as simply screaming doesn't give you any results.
It may not be a scientific paper but that doesn't mean we have to forfeit any intelligence or argumentative approach to this delicate topic. Me suggesting a list of argumentation for each title seems like a good idea in my eyes to give the issues more depth and refute claims of people that believe it is targeting fanservice as a whole. I myself sometimes believe that some women simply want to remove all male fanservice, which I consider wrong and not something humanity should strive for. Women want respectful representation in artistic mediums and I think anybody with intelligence can respect and understand their claim so we can come together to come to a solution both sides are happy with.
In the end, just make it equal as this is the logical solution people should come to as the conclusion for this problem. You keep all aspects that currently exist in gaming intact while adding respectful representation for everybody that desires and/or deserves it.
Sorry, I think you lost the narrative. Please reread his posts and try to understand them. You can have an opinion but it helps no one to misunderstand things and debate things nobody's said.
I still would urge you to widen your horizon as love is not everything in this world. For you to actually understand more about this world you should not look away from the depravity that humanity can produce. Does that mean this depravity should get vanquished? In my personal opinion, from Reality yes, from Fiction no.
Love can change a lot but sometimes love is not enough to reach the desired state you want to end up at. Women representation will not get "willed" into existence through love. People need to make a conscious choice to increase the % of games with respectful representation of all races and genders while everybody stays alert we do not loose anything we already achieved. Generally logic should tell you that a equal representation of all parts of your society is the most desired result you can strive towards.
I think general logic should tell you that liking skimpy clothed women doesn't make you sexist. Otherwise women who like skimpy clothed men would be sexist as well and we would go down a path of prude censorship due to "one upping" each other over years. Therefore I think you can rest easy that you aren't sexist for simply liking it. I would assume this changes if liking scantily clad women in games changes how you treat women in reality. Fiction and Reality are different, same as Thought and Action. I myself enjoy skimpy outfits and scantily clad women but I will always treat a woman I meet in reality with the respect a fellow human being and intelligent living being deserves. As long as you can reflect and abstract in these topics you will always be on the save side in my opinion.
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No, I asked you to read the OP to remind you what this thread is about.
I know they were banned so I won't quote them further, but I still want to share my thoughts about the whole "go play something else" argument because god damn if it isn't annoying as hell.
Because okay, out of my own gaming collection? If I were to only play the games that had no sexualized elements of women what so ever, I would have maybe three games to play. It just so happens that the games that have stories and characters that interest me, also tend to have dumb stuff like girls in bikinis just for the sake of boobs when it adds no depth to her character or anything worthwhile to the game as a whole. It's entirely unnecessary in a game that isn't about sex or fanservice to begin with. If I were to avoid every game that has it, I'd pretty much not be a gamer anymore -- or I'd be forced to stick to things like tetris or cute animal avatars or things without the stories I'm interested in. And it is not that I'm calling to take away the precious T&A completely, but to think more carefully on when it is appropriate or not and how to let women feel more included in the games they want to play.
And it just gets infinitely more frustrating to deal with comments like this that are essentially "well go play something else and shut up" when our entire lives revolve around shutting up for men to talk and for men setting the standard for what we can and can't do -- from jobs and pay to our own goddamn bodies. Good lord, you would think asking for video games that don't make us feel like slabs of meat was like asking some men to give up their first born child or something.
Because okay, out of my own gaming collection? If I were to only play the games that had no sexualized elements of women what so ever, I would have maybe three games to play. It just so happens that the games that have stories and characters that interest me, also tend to have dumb stuff like girls in bikinis just for the sake of boobs when it adds no depth to her character or anything worthwhile to the game as a whole. It's entirely unnecessary in a game that isn't about sex or fanservice to begin with. If I were to avoid every game that has it, I'd pretty much not be a gamer anymore -- or I'd be forced to stick to things like tetris or cute animal avatars or things without the stories I'm interested in. And it is not that I'm calling to take away the precious T&A completely, but to think more carefully on when it is appropriate or not and how to let women feel more included in the games they want to play.
And it just gets infinitely more frustrating to deal with comments like this that are essentially "well go play something else and shut up" when our entire lives revolve around shutting up for men to talk and for men setting the standard for what we can and can't do -- from jobs and pay to our own goddamn bodies. Good lord, you would think asking for video games that don't make us feel like slabs of meat was like asking some men to give up their first born child or something.
And this is the way it should be, but all too often the experience is if you're angry and show it you're a bitch and if you're crying you're simply being too emotional -- or for either you're just PMSing.
I didn't ask what the thread was about, I flatly asked:
In response to the accusation that by liking games with scantly clad women was sexist. Fundamentally I'm still not clear on the answer since you instead referred to how the predominance of scantly clad women in games was sexist, which says nothing about a non-creating individual consumer.
It's not a matter of not getting the point of the thread, it's asking something of a single person to clarify what line they are drawing in terms of sexism.
Thank you for the answer, apparently I didn't butcher the question to where it was completely incomprehensible, just mostly so.
Gaming is for everyone, but the existence of niche games is the evidence that every game is not for everyone as a target audience. Obviously the prevalence of sexualization in combination of the onesidedness of it is problematic, especially on non-niche titles. With that stated, the blanket rule of eliminating sexuality in games as a prerequisite for inclusiveness is an interesting place to end up as an only answer.
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My comment doesn't stop said Women to do just that. I was just making a point that OP doesn't speak for all Women.
I find that what is bolded is an example of what I'm talking about. That is coming from a place of love and kindness. That is a mindset built around fostering something good and protecting it because it makes things better for everyone. That is an act of love.
And love isn't about ignoring or shielding yourself. It's about looking at the depravity, not fueling it, and monitoring what it fuels in you. It's about stopping for a second (like you mentioned in a really good post you made earlier on this page that probably should have been the end of the thread altogether lol) and choosing not to say the nasty thing you really want to say. Instead, you breath and reform what you are really trying to say and make an even better, more thought provoking, and more thoughtful statement. It's a really really difficult thing to do sometimes but most things worth doing are.
I've enjoyed talking about this and I believe I'm beginning to derail this again so I'm going to forfeit this discussion on that.
Take care,
David
I think the point that many are trying to make in that regard, is that if your feelings against this dumb shit are that strong, you (like the others) should stop giving money to those developers (which you rewarded with your dollars in regards to your collection...i know it sucks, but it's what you did) and start favoring games that do it right and buy them instead. Which honestly is a perfectly reasonable position that will actually have MUCH MORE potential impact in shifting trends.
A recent example (not the same theme, but revenue is a universal language) can be PUBG, it came out and people flocked on it....now every publisher is kinda scrambling to have their own version/clone.
Same thing with the Switch, people showed interest and bought a bagillion consoles even tho many developers weren't even considering it, once again now there's quite the scramble to start putting out content on that platform by pretty much everyone, however unprepared to meet the demand they were.
Last example: I'm really against microtransactions and lootboxes in full price games, all i can do is not buying any of em, and yes: i'm playing a very limited amount of games as a result and i'm missing out on a lot of content....but i do feel that strongly about it.
Consumers have plenty of power to shift the market, discussion is great and by all means should be had, but don't dismiss and treat those that suggest buying different games like they are stupid or "don't get it". Because they, in fact, do have a point even if you don't like it
P.S. Before anyone roasts me, since my last post was a thousand pages ago: i'm all for better female characters (i'm for better characters and narritve in general to be honest) and i couldn't care less about digital tits.
People that seriously mention this should reflect upon themself and mature a bit more. I can understand that sometimes you say this in an emotional influx and regret it later, I would not fault these kind of people, in fact it probably happened to me too as both sides got emotional.
Simple logic gives an obvious answer in the same way that a naked body is not inherently sexual in any way, you and your mind make it sexual if you want it to be. I wish and hope more people learn this important distinction for everything. Most things aren't inherently something just because you always feel that way. In moments like these I always remember a seminar I attended about the aspect of beauty from Immanuel Kant.
While I agree that it includes Love and Kindness (I very much feel like this while writing the bolded) I also would like to point out that I made this argument due to logic, neutrality and objectivity.
Imagine yourself as a ruler, the best course of action for your society to flourish is if you create equality as it allows for the best harvest of talents to occur in your society. This then results in your society to flourish even more. To me this looks like simple logic and nothing speaks against equality in almost all situations. Now, are there situations where you could or can speak against it? Yes, there obviously are, but these are rare, unique cases that involve other aspects.
the issue is that the people who raise this point often want everyone to also shut up and stop criticising.
the loot box threads on this and other forums are VERY active with criticism. which is good.
Three games? Jotakori I'm calling bullshit. I'm looking at The Last Guardian, Breath of the Wild, Super Mario Odyssey, Uncharted: The Lost Legacy, Horizon: Zero Dawn, Resident Evil 7, Cuphead, Prey, The Evil Within 2, and Gravity Rush 2 right in front of me, not to mention the digital copies of What Remains of Edith Finch, Steamworld Dig 2, Sonic Mania, Stardew Valley, Rise of the Tomb Raider, and Hollow Knight.
There's plenty of games with sexualized elements of women in them. But there are plenty that aren't. Certainly, some of these have been rated M for violence. But for the kind of off-putting you're fighting sexualization and objectification you're arguing against, you're completely misrepresenting the breadth and variety of content that exists today.
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I agree, they often come off like that, but it's undeniable that even the most innocent ones get undeserved shit many times, that's why like 15 pages ago i said that there's a huge problem in communication and attitude on both sides...but unsurprisingly i managed to get shit myself for saying that ^_^''
So do critics and academics. Why must we protest in only one way? Because I'm not only concerned with sexism-
Several of those games have other issues. If we start to whittle down to games that really don't have any troubling elements, we are left with a very narrow margin. And guess what happens when women don't buy games? We get written off completely.
It isn't as simple as that. I know it should be, but this is a very nuanced problem that has morphed and changed over the years and the best ways to effect change in this particular industry has been to participate, visibly, loudly, and well (its own issue), and to celebrate the games and developers that are doing things well. We can't do that unless we buy some games - what, am I going to trust men to tell me how sexism is handled in a game? I will not.
To give a suggestion isn't to suggest that suggestion is the only means of achieving a goal. Gabe isn't saying we shouldn't critique, but is suggesting our purchases give our critiques power.
Here we go...and next person who reads just from your reply will think that i even remotely suggested to NOT protest nor discuss.
This is exactly the kind of dumb shit that drags the discussion straight into the toilet, which is once again what i was talking about 15 pages ago.
What other issues? I think for us to have a healthy debate about the topic, the criticisms needs to be as specific and pointed as possible. For example is Breath of the Wild an example of a game with issues? Because the topic of the thread isn't representation. It's sexualized character designs. And so if the design of Princess Zelda in Breath of the Wild has problems, those issues should be specified. Similarly, I don't find Pauline's character design to be sexualized at all.
Or, I can continue supporting games I overall like enough to own and play while also voicing what I find are flaws -- maybe my voice won't reach anyone important, but maybe it will. And maybe if enough of us speak up and say, 'hey I really liked your game overall, but I found the way you presented this character to be really insulting,' they'll choose to work better at it in the future.
For a more specific example, Nier: Automata is my all time favorite game. I absolutely love it for tons and tons of reasons, and for the most part I think the dance of sexualization the game has fits its themes and so doesn't bother me. However I still feel the ability to blow 2B's skirt off to be a bit much, as well as the trophy to look up her skirt. It doesn't ruin the game for me, especially because they're optional, but I am still allowed to voice my criticism of it. I am still allowed to go to a forum and say, 'wow I didn't like this part I thought it was kinda gross' and I shouldn't be told to shut up or play something else as a response.
I furthermore want to say your comparisons don't feel entirely equal to the topic at hand imo -- there is a huge moral difference between loot boxes which harm nothing besides one's wallet, and the weight of being a woman and seeing our gender constantly objectified and poorly portrayed. I don't like games that expect me to constantly funnel money into them either, but I don't feel emotionally hurt and dehumanized when I see them.
Also I was talking about my collection - I don't have most of the games you listed. But okay, I'll admit I was probably exaggerating a little - it's probably more like 5/6 games, with a few more in the grey area, but I still would say the majority of my collection has instances of sexualization in them. Plus like Dr. Monkey pointed out, even if a game doesn't have instances of sexualization many of them still have other issues about representation -- but I guess that's a little off the point since I did bring up sexualization specifically.
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