Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

esserius said:
And I want the people who made the games, as well as those who think about games, to be better. I want all of us to be better, myself included.

What does this really even mean? My reading of these few statements is that you want the stories in games to be more ethical in some way. It's almost like I see a parallel between Veganism and the kind of criticisms we are seeing against games.

If Kratos is portrayed as a horrible father then it follows that people in the real world will follow his lead and will become horrible fathers themselves? Something like that?

So like if the next Dishonored was loosely based around gun laws and healthcare but the protagonists were pro gun and anti free healthcare then the reaction is that "the developers need to "be better".

If sexualised characters in fiction are objectively 100% bad then we can easily say anyone putting sexualised characters into their fiction is doing a bad thing.

If they aren't always bad or if there is room for certain types of fiction that does have sexualised content then how can we ask people to "be better"?

It feels almost religious in a way. I can imagine Christian parents who banned their kids from reading Harry Potter telling themselves that society is going to hell with fiction containing witchcraft etc and it's up to them to "be better" and to teach their kids to "be better" too.

I agree with the sentiment that we can all do better and we can all be better BUT an overzealous approach to that can often have the opposite effect.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

Kain-Nosgoth said:
Just curious, what do you think about this character design? Sorry if it derails the thread, i just sometime read it, without participating too much in this thread!

I think it's good artwork. It's a depiction of an attractive, kind of conventionally hot, lady but it's not controversial or anything. Kind of like reminds me of Trish Stratus. Obviously sexualised, I would say.

Dmax3901 · May 11, 2018

esserius said:
I've beaten it. It's my impression of the game.

Apologies, the use of the word impression me think you hadn't played it for some reason.

That said, I'm genuinely surprised that someone could play that game and come away thinking Kratos wasn't aware of the evil in his past. This discussion is tricky though cause I don't want to get specific and fill the thread up with spoiler tags for a game that is only tangentially related to female sexualisation.

Dary · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
There are enough games out there that some can have sexualised designs and people who don't like that can just buy something else.

Please list all modern JRPGs that don't feature oversexualised character designs.

esserius · May 11, 2018

Dmax3901 said:
Apologies, the use of the word impression me think you hadn't played it for some reason.

That said, I'm genuinely surprised that someone could play that game and come away thinking Kratos wasn't aware of the evil in his past. This discussion is tricky though cause I don't want to get specific and fill the thread up with spoiler tags for a game that is only tangentially related to female sexualisation.

Just, as a point of reference, my meaning when I say that he is "unaware of it" is not to say he is not conscious of it, but that, during actual combat, it is lost in his performance (effectively, still acting using his past in spite of the awareness of his own faults). I think this is most exemplified by glory kills. I don't think I'd feel the disconnect quite so intimately except that his son is standing right there while he performs them. I could not help but think of what my own thoughts would be like if one of the closest memories I had of my father is him physically ripping apart other creatures (and occasionally, people).

TyrantGuardian · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
What if someone literally just wanted to make a video game that's also kind of softcore porn? I wouldn't buy it but I also wouldn't criticize it since it's just not my kind of thing.

Maybe the problem is that almost all developers are including softcore porn in their games and we're criticizing the systemic reasons behind this. Things don't exist in a vacuum.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

Dary said:
Please list all modern JRPGs that don't feature oversexualised character designs.

Um... No?

If oversexualised character designs are a feature of JRPGs then I guess I just don't like JRPGs. Since I don't like them, I won't play them. The end.

StoveOven · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
Um... No?

If oversexualised character designs are a feature of JRPGs then I guess I just don't like JRPGs. Since I don't like them, I won't play them. The end.

But, like, that's not the only part of JRPGs, neither is it an integral one. What do you say to someone who likes other aspects of JPRGs but is put off by the objectification that runs rampant in the genre? Why shouldn't that person criticize them?

Mailbox · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Maybe the problem is that almost all developers are including softcore porn in their games and we're criticizing the systemic reasons behind this. Things don't exist in a vacuum.

Holy hyperbole, batman.
Seriously, titillation & sexualization =/= softcore porn. If that's how you see all this, I think maybe there's something wrong with how you see the concepts of sex and porn.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Maybe the problem is that almost all developers are including softcore porn in their games and we're criticizing the systemic reasons behind this. Things don't exist in a vacuum.

Almost all? Sorry but I'm not seeing that at all.

Enter the Gungeon, Splatoon 2, Dimension Drive, Arms, PuyoPuyo Tetris, DKC: Tropical Freeze, Gonner, Thimbleweed Park, Kirby Star Allies, Sonic Mania, Mario Odyssey, Furi, FIFA 18, Axiom Verge, Light Fall, Fast RMX, Crypt of the Necrodancer, BotW, Graceful Explosion Machine, Floor Kids, Steamworld Dig 2, Tiny Metal, Neuro Voider, Mario + Rabbids, Darkest Dungeon, Owlboy, Blossom Tales, Celeste, Oxenfree, Skyrim, Overcooked, The Next Penelope, Slime San, Golf Story, Night in the Woods, Thumper, The Escapists 2, Forma 8, Tumbleseed and Bulb Boy.

That's the game library I have on my Switch right now. Please point to the "almost all developers are including softcore porn in their games" here, thanks.

I mean, I think I'm looking at many 100s of hours of gameplay time there and I still have a "wishlist" of things I haven't bought yet and so few are even remotely close to having any sexualised content at all.

So "almost all developers are including softcore porn in their games" just does not ring true to me. So even if someone is bringing a game like XC2 that has, in my opinion, pretty awful character designs then I not obligated to play it and there's an actual mountain of other things to choose from.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

StoveOven said:
But, like, that's not the only part of JRPGs, neither is it an integral one. What do you say to someone who likes other aspects of JPRGs but is put off by the objectification that runs rampant in the genre? Why shouldn't that person criticize them?

Well, I've criticized XC2 myself and stated the reason I didn't buy it, despite enjoying both XC1 and XCX, was the over the top character designs. It's just not for me.

That's as far as it goes though and if I'm being sensible I think that's as far as it can go. If something isn't my kind of thing I just don't buy it.

Apparently the game sold well too so "maybe it should change to be my kind of thing" is just a rubbish argument.

It's just a dumb criticism, in my view, because it's basically complaining that I don't like a thing that I don't like.

Of course if there is an ethical argument that objectification in these kind of games is damaging to society then I would be fine with seeing the games treated like alcohol or tobacco or other things that can potentially have damaging effects. That's not my decision to make and I wouldn't necessarily be against it.

TyrantGuardian · May 11, 2018

Mailbox said:
Holy hyperbole, batman.
Seriously, titillation & sexualization =/= softcore porn. If that's how you see all this, I think maybe there's something wrong with how you see the concepts of sex and porn.

Read the thing I quoted. Where you draw the line between titillation and softcore porn and why in the world you even care about where exactly that distinction lies I have no idea. What matters is that most developers are indeed trying to put as much sexualization in games as they can get away with. Always.

Mailbox · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Read the thing I quoted. Where you draw the line between titillation and softcore porn and why in the world you even care about where exactly that distinction lies I have no idea. What matters is that most developers are indeed trying to put as much sexualization in games as they can get away with. Always.

bull.

TyrantGuardian · May 11, 2018

Mailbox said:
bull.

Uh-uh. Completely 100% untrue. Really weird how an immense amount of AAA games feature brothels and strip clubs for some reason. Oh yes, they "fit in with the game world". Right. Game worlds design themselves.

Sutarufosu said:
Almost all? Sorry but I'm not seeing that at all.

Enter the Gungeon, Splatoon 2, Dimension Drive, Arms, PuyoPuyo Tetris, DKC: Tropical Freeze, Gonner, Thimbleweed Park, Kirby Star Allies, Sonic Mania, Mario Odyssey, Furi, FIFA 18, Axiom Verge, Light Fall, Fast RMX, Crypt of the Necrodancer, BotW, Graceful Explosion Machine, Floor Kids, Steamworld Dig 2, Tiny Metal, Neuro Voider, Mario + Rabbids, Darkest Dungeon, Owlboy, Blossom Tales, Celeste, Oxenfree, Skyrim, Overcooked, The Next Penelope, Slime San, Golf Story, Night in the Woods, Thumper, The Escapists 2, Forma 8, Tumbleseed and Bulb Boy.

That's the game library I have on my Switch right now. Please point to the "almost all developers are including softcore porn in their games" here, thanks.

Obviously developers of games that are aiming for a kid-friendly theme at least (usually...) have the sense to avoid sexualizing their characters. Not sure if I needed to include a caveat about that. Axiom Verge isn't exactly the best example seeing as it features no women aside from somewhat sexualized literal objectified AI "women". I'm glad there are plenty of games for you to play that don't feature sexualization though, and I do think things have thankfully gotten better since this debate was brought forth.

Still, I find it tiresome that we're still debating specific games and characters as if that is what actually matters instead of discussing the structural background of why these things exist in the first place. Unfortunately some people refuse to accept the fact that media shapes beliefs (and vice versa, of course) so we can't even get past that basic point. Luckily some developers are listening regardless of that, which I am thankful for.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Read the thing I quoted. Where you draw the line between titillation and softcore porn and why in the world you even care about where exactly that distinction lies I have no idea. What matters is that most developers are indeed trying to put as much sexualization in games as they can get away with. Always.

"What matters is that most developers are indeed trying to put as much sexualization in games as they can get away with. Always."

This simply is not true.

Sure, there are some genres or some publishers or some developers that put sexualization and objectification in their games. It's not all of them though.

Just like violence, it's possible to completely avoid video games that feature sexualization and still have thousands of hours worth of games to play.

Hell, it's something I tend to avoid myself. I'm not into XC2 and I'm not into Bayonetta and there's a few other "questionable" ones on the eshop and I'm still going strong with an absolute ton of games to play.

I haven't even touched on the variety available on PS4 or PC there either. Or VR, even.

You just sound like someone who knows nothing about games talking about how "they are all violent murder simulators" or something.

Weltall Zero · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
What does this really even mean? My reading of these few statements is that you want the stories in games to be more ethical in some way. It's almost like I see a parallel between Veganism and the kind of criticisms we are seeing against games.

If Kratos is portrayed as a horrible father then it follows that people in the real world will follow his lead and will become horrible fathers themselves? Something like that?

So like if the next Dishonored was loosely based around gun laws and healthcare but the protagonists were pro gun and anti free healthcare then the reaction is that "the developers need to "be better".

If sexualised characters in fiction are objectively 100% bad then we can easily say anyone putting sexualised characters into their fiction is doing a bad thing.

If they aren't always bad or if there is room for certain types of fiction that does have sexualised content then how can we ask people to "be better"?

It feels almost religious in a way. I can imagine Christian parents who banned their kids from reading Harry Potter telling themselves that society is going to hell with fiction containing witchcraft etc and it's up to them to "be better" and to teach their kids to "be better" too.

I agree with the sentiment that we can all do better and we can all be better BUT an overzealous approach to that can often have the opposite effect.

I'm almost surprised you forgot to compare it to Nazism. I guess Christian fundamentalism comparisons are a progressive forum's Godwin law.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Uh-uh. Completely 100% untrue. Really weird how an immense amount of AAA games feature brothels and strip clubs for some reason. Oh yes, they "fit in with the game world". Right. Game worlds design themselves.

Right. So name 5 AAAs from the last 24 months that "feature brothels and strip clubs for some reason" and we'll see if I can name 10 that don't, OK?

Mesoian · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
What matters is that most developers are indeed trying to put as much sexualization in games as they can get away with. Always.

Haha no.

While I still agree that base sexualization and tittilation are problems in games, you will be hard-pressed to find a top 50 seller that supports itself purely on those pillars. Most of the time, the developers who are banking on those things are the ones producing multiple projects of the same ilk a year in order to keep the lights on. They're using and perverting the concept of sexualization in order to placate to a very niche collective of gamers who basically only want to deal with these soft depictions of interacting with women. They pay the bills, but they are not the things of wanton success.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
I'm almost surprised you forgot to compare it to Nazism. I guess Christian fundamentalism comparisons are a progressive forum's Godwin law.

Personal experience. My bro and sis were not allowed to read Harry Potter when they were growing up. Not even joking. I was a bit too old for all that but, yeah, the local church was on a bit of a tear against HP back in early 2000s.

The main objection my bro and sis had was that all their friends at school were reading them and the reply from my folks was more or less "we need to be better than them".

So if it's a bad comparison then fair enough. I'm calling it as I perceive it.

TyrantGuardian · May 11, 2018

Mesoian said:
Haha no.

While I still agree that base sexualization and tittilation are problems in games, you will be hard-pressed to find a top 50 seller that supports itself purely on those pillars. Most of the time, the developers who are banking on those things are the ones producing multiple projects of the same ilk a year in order to keep the lights on. They're using and perverting the concept of sexualization in order to placate to a very niche collective of gamers who basically only want to deal with these soft depictions of interacting with women. They pay the bills, but they are not the things of wanton success.

Square Enix top tier franchises are niche? Who said anything about "purely supporting themselves on those pillars"? I said that they try to insert as much as they can get away with.

Sutarufosu said:
Right. So name 5 AAAs from the last 24 months that "feature brothels and strip clubs for some reason" and we'll see if I can name 10 that don't, OK?

There was thread about it back on GAF. Google it. I honestly haven't played many AAA games (in part due to crap like this) from the past 24 months so I couldn't tell you, but there was clearly a trope going quite recently. Have all the AAA games now stopped doing this? You tell me and I'm glad if they did.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Square Enix top tier franchises are niche? Who said anything about "purely supporting themselves on those pillars"? I said that they try to insert as much as they can get away with.

Here, I'll help you out.

The depiction of Shelob is Shadow of War (2017) is almost unforgivable. WTF were they thinking?

I still played the game but every time she showed up it was a skippity skip from me.

A misguided attempt to appeal to "male gamers"? I think so. So they ruined an iconic character and missed out on a potential awesome interpretation of that character in order to show a "sexy lady". Idiots. I do not like it one bit.

A worse thought it that they may have done this just to have more female representation in the game, which makes it extra dumb.

Mesoian · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Square Enix top tier franchises are niche?

If you're going to point at Final Fantasy, I'd say that a franchise that manages to lose millions upon millions of dollars due to management not being able to figure out how to escape the late 90's and the early aughts is uncommon, yes, ESPECIALLY in the face of their other profitable franchises like Dues Ex, Tomb Raider, soon to be Avengers and formally Hitman that foot the bill for most of the dumb waffling caused by the Japanese developers figuring out how many belts they need to cover thighs and how many NPC's need to wear their underwear on the outside.

And keep in mind, I'm not ready to say that a game is engaging in dumb based pandering based off A SINGLE OUTFIT. Cindy is dumb, her outfit does not tank FF15. The Dancer from Octopath being a large part of the visual identity of the game will not sink that game. Square ain't NIS, Square ain't Marvelous, Square ain't even BAMCO. Square does better than most most of the time when it comes to things like this.

Sutarufosu said:
Here, I'll help you out.

The depiction of Shelob is Shadow of War (2017) is almost unforgivable. WTF were they thinking?

I still played the game but every time she showed up it was a skippity skip from me.

A misguided attempt to appeal to "male gamers"? I think so. So they ruined an iconic character and missed out on a potential awesome interpretation of that character in order to show a "sexy lady". Idiots. I do not like it one bit.

A worse thought it that they may have done this just to have more female representation in the game, which makes it extra dumb.

I mean.

Shadow of War was a pretty bad game in the end. There's a whoooole lot of "what were they thinking" in that one.

TyrantGuardian said:
Square Enix top tier franchises are niche? Who said anything about "purely supporting themselves on those pillars"? I said that they try to insert as much as they can get away with.

This statement is false and you know it.

You know they can get away with a LOT more and no one would bat and eye.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Still, I find it tiresome that we're still debating specific games and characters as if that is what actually matters instead of discussing the structural background of why these things exist in the first place.d Unfortunately some people refuse to accept the fact that media shapes beliefs (and vice versa, of course) so we can't even get past that basic point. Luckily some developers are listening regardless of that, which I am thankful for.

I think we've moved beyond that. We know exactly why these things exist.

The question is whether or not they should be allowed to exist, surely?

Or at least whether or not they should be allowed to exist in video games.

I am fine with the idea that media shapes beliefs and even with the idea that media can nurture bad or toxic beliefs.

That just brings us back to "to ban or not to ban" and if the conclusion is "no ban" then it's ultimately up to the consumer to make the decision on what content they will buy.

petran79 · May 11, 2018

Tizoc said:
Hmm have you played Banner Saga or Wolves of Midgard by any chance?

I know about Banner Saga but I am notibto RPGs that much.

TyrantGuardian · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
Here, I'll help you out.

The depiction of Shelob is Shadow of War (2017) is almost unforgivable. WTF were they thinking?

I still played the game but every time she showed up it was a skippity skip from me.

A misguided attempt to appeal to "male gamers"? I think so. So they ruined an iconic character and missed out on a potential awesome interpretation of that character in order to show a "sexy lady". Idiots. I do not like it one bit.

A worse thought it that they may have done this just to have more female representation in the game, which makes it extra dumb.

Great example that I was aware of passively but haven't followed in practice since I don't care about that game at all personally. But again, we're getting bogged down in examples over and over in this thread. Why exactly are we sitting here trying to specifically quantify what games do and don't feature sexualization? Like, what is the end game? Just feels like trying to muddle the discussion and preventing the debate from moving forward into action such as advocating for better representation in games. The OP of this thread was about WHY women criticize these designs and what men can learn in terms of empathy and understanding, not about providing a comprehensive database of what games get the official ERA seal of approval when it comes to sexualization. I find this entire thing kind of bizarre to discuss.

TyrantGuardian · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
I think we've moved beyond that. We know exactly why these things exist.

The question is whether or not they should be allowed to exist, surely?

Or at least whether or not they should be allowed to exist in video games.

I am fine with the idea that media shapes beliefs and even with the idea that media can nurture bad or toxic beliefs.

That just brings us back to "to ban or not to ban" and if the conclusion is "no ban" then it's ultimately up to the consumer to make the decision on what content they will buy.

No, the question isn't whether they should be allowed to exist. Of course they should - not even Anita (or any contemporary feminist critic) even once mentioned the idea of banning sexualization from games. You can't just throw your hands up in the air and shrug with a huge "CAVEAT EMPTOR LOL" sign looming behind you. If we all know "exactly why these things exist" then why is there still an immense amount of pushback both here on ERA and especially on other video game forums whenever there are feminist critiques of video games? Maybe I've missed something and we've indeed all moved beyond that but it doesn't seem like it to me.

Edit: Excuse the double post.

Mesoian · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Great example that I was aware of passively but haven't followed in practice since I don't care about that game at all personally. But again, we're getting bogged down in examples over and over in this thread. Why exactly are we sitting here trying to specifically quantify what games do and don't feature sexualization? Like, what is the end game? Just feels like trying to muddle the discussion and preventing the debate from moving forward into action such as advocating for better representation in games. The OP of this thread was about WHY women criticize these designs and what men can learn in terms of empathy and understanding, not about providing a comprehensive database of what games get the official ERA seal of approval when it comes to sexualization. I find this entire thing kind of bizarre to discuss.

IMO, the end game is for producers to take more than 5 minutes approving what is considered to be "acceptable design" and actually spend a little effort in figuring out whether or not what they're pushing is meaningful.

Half of Xenoblade 2's character designs being by committee hurts that game irreparably. The fact that offering out 27 designs to random artists in the Japanese ero space and getting 23 designs back that are all lewd depictions of women and just being fine with that is the problem. We need to stop being so flippant about sexualization being the norm. I'm not even saying it needs to stop, but, much like how there are insanely racist ad campaigns that no one bats an eye about until they are in print and are being broadcast worldwide, we need the people in charge to stop and think about what they're actually selling and see if they can do something better.

You want lewd designs, fine. A little bit of titillation here and there isn't bad. But when the attitude is "everyone's half naked, well that's par for the course, just ship it, I don't care," the problem exacerbates, the cycle is never broken, the problem never goes away.

TyrantGuardian · May 11, 2018

Mesoian said:
IMO, the end game is for producers to take more than 5 minutes approving what is considered to be "acceptable design" and actually spend a little effort in figuring out whether or not what they're pushing is meaningful.

Half of Xenoblade 2's character designs being by committee hurts that game irreparably. The fact that offering out 27 designs to random artists in the Japanese ero space and getting 23 designs back that are all lewd depictions of women and just being fine with that is the problem. We need to stop being so flippant about sexualization being the norm. I'm not even saying it needs to stop, but, much like how there are insanely racist ad campaigns that no one bats an eye about until they are in print and are being broadcast worldwide, we need the people in charge to stop and think about what they're actually selling and see if they can do something better.

You want lewd designs, fine. A little bit of titillation here and there isn't bad. But when the attitude is "everyone's half naked, well that's par for the course, just ship it, I don't care," the problem exacerbates, the cycle is never broken, the problem never goes away.

I completely agree with you on all of this. I don't mind calling out specific games. I do mind getting bogged down in the details trying to defend specific games i.e. "Cindy isn't that bad!". Yes she is. She's completely fucking awful and whoever signed off on that design should take a long look at themselves. One of my favorite games is Bayonetta (*points at avatar*) but you won't see me here defending her design trying to claim its not sexualized when its obvious Kamiya wanted a representation of his specific sexual fetishes in the game. Why in the world would I defend that? I still personally love the character, the game and the design, but it's still sexualized as hell.

I just can't help but question the motives of someone desperate to defend specific games and devs (or shifting blame onto "there are worse out there!") rather than confronting than issues in a reasonable manner. Sexism is everywhere. The sooner we can accept that the easier it is to do something positive about it.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Great example that I was aware of passively but haven't followed in practice since I don't care about that game at all personally. But again, we're getting bogged down in examples over and over in this thread. Why exactly are we sitting here trying to specifically quantify what games do and don't feature sexualization? Like, what is the end game? Just feels like trying to muddle the discussion and preventing the debate from moving forward into action such as advocating for better representation in games. The OP of this thread was about WHY women criticize these designs and what men can learn in terms of empathy and understanding, not about providing a comprehensive database of what games get the official ERA seal of approval when it comes to sexualization. I find this entire thing kind of bizarre to discuss.

That's all fair. For sure.

I think it's kind of obvious why some women would object and criticise also but I think ultimately there is still a discussion of whether or not these depictions or designs or whatever should be allowed.

Simply "criticising" and alluding to games or consumers needing to "be better" feels more like dancing around the issue. If God of War, for example, "needs to be better" then that reads to me as an obvious call to "take out that sexualised content" without outright saying it.

As I said with XC2, if that game had different character designs then it would have been an instant buy for me and I would have preordered whatever collectors version they had.

Where I'd stop myself, I think, is criticism of the developers because I'm just thinking "meh, it's not for me". I'm disappointed but I'll get over it, you know?

But honestly if the argument is that such depictions are damaging then the conversation needs to move onto either banning or regulation.

RalchAC · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
What does this really even mean? My reading of these few statements is that you want the stories in games to be more ethical in some way. It's almost like I see a parallel between Veganism and the kind of criticisms we are seeing against games.

If Kratos is portrayed as a horrible father then it follows that people in the real world will follow his lead and will become horrible fathers themselves? Something like that?

So like if the next Dishonored was loosely based around gun laws and healthcare but the protagonists were pro gun and anti free healthcare then the reaction is that "the developers need to "be better".

If sexualised characters in fiction are objectively 100% bad then we can easily say anyone putting sexualised characters into their fiction is doing a bad thing.

If they aren't always bad or if there is room for certain types of fiction that does have sexualised content then how can we ask people to "be better"?

It feels almost religious in a way. I can imagine Christian parents who banned their kids from reading Harry Potter telling themselves that society is going to hell with fiction containing witchcraft etc and it's up to them to "be better" and to teach their kids to "be better" too.

I agree with the sentiment that we can all do better and we can all be better BUT an overzealous approach to that can often have the opposite effect.

Esserius doesn't want games to be more ethical but feels that the game does a poor job at selling Kratos behavior as flawed and sees a disconnect between what the game wants to sell to its audience and what's happening on screen. Which I'd argue is a fair argument, even if you disagree, because there is a degree of disconnect between those and different people are able to ignore it better than others.

I personally really liked the game, but I think it's fair game to take others opinions seriously even if you don't share them.

Free public Healthcare for me is a basic human right, so if a game was framing it as bad and never challenged the characters for being against it I would never get it. As an European, I still can't get my head around the fact that almost half the US population somehow is against it.

esserius said:
Just, as a point of reference, my meaning when I say that he is "unaware of it" is not to say he is not conscious of it, but that, during actual combat, it is lost in his performance (effectively, still acting using his past in spite of the awareness of his own faults). I think this is most exemplified by glory kills. I don't think I'd feel the disconnect quite so intimately except that his son is standing right there while he performs them. I could not help but think of what my own thoughts would be like if one of the closest memories I had of my father is him physically ripping apart other creatures (and occasionally, people).

A lot of glory kids are optional, but I was quite surprised when I found out there is no other way to kill some bigger enemies like the trolls.

I think those can be justified in-game, in the same way Spartan Rage does, but some feel too brutal. It'd have been interesting to have both a "moderate" and a "brutal" R3 grab for different enemies, and have Atreus attitude (and even fighting style) during the game reflect those little choices. Before release it seemed like they wanted to have some decisions shaping Atreus, at least that was my impression reading interviews.

In-game one could kill and the other deal a good chunk of damage or something. You could map that decision to R1 and R2.

In your answer to a previous post, I'd argue that cutscenes in this game overall have a more intimate feeling and are closer to the characters' faces so you can see their emotions, so people seeing the new game may think that the mocap is really well done too :P

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
I completely agree with you on all of this. I don't mind calling out specific games. I do mind getting bogged down in the details trying to defend specific games i.e. "Cindy isn't that bad!". Yes she is. She's completely fucking awful and whoever signed off on that design should take a long look at themselves.

Hahaha. Yeah, she is pretty terrible. I'd be tempted to speculate that her design is a pretty deliberate attempt to provoke. As you said, nothing exists in a vacuum.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
No, the question isn't whether they should be allowed to exist. Of course they should - not even Anita (or any contemporary feminist critic) even once mentioned the idea of banning sexualization from games. You can't just throw your hands up in the air and shrug with a huge "CAVEAT EMPTOR LOL" sign looming behind you. If we all know "exactly why these things exist" then why is there still an immense amount of pushback both here on ERA and especially on other video game forums whenever there are feminist critiques of video games? Maybe I've missed something and we've indeed all moved beyond that but it doesn't seem like it to me.

Edit: Excuse the double post.

I think looking at things through a feminist lens kind of puts you in a position of purity testing the product. Like you have a set of beliefs and you're running the content through that filter and "flagging" everything that doesn't conform.

I mean it kind of always felt like Anita's filter was incredibly fine and not even the smallest thing would get past it. Even having Linkle in Hyrule Warriors was kind of "good but not really".

So the "flagging" part of the process may not explicitly be "ban this" but then what does the "be better" mean? "Change this"?

I'm not even denying that games need to change. They definitely have room to change. I just question the process here.

If a Feminist lens is being used then there is going to be a very specific angle to any suggestions for change. I'd like to think that people wouldn't attempt to hide that behind the "dictionary definition" of Feminist but they frequently do. Like if a Scientologist is giving me a dictionary definition or just a nicely sugar coated definition of Scientology then I'm going to be saying "OK, buddy, and the rest". Not to compare the two that much as I think Feminism is relatively harmless and largely ineffective in modern times (points to US president).

Because of the nature of their "filter", I think a Feminist critique of games is condemned to be an incredibly biased critique of games. The obvious conclusion to that is a critique of the critique will emerge.

I mean, I appreciate your critique of my critique of this thread itself and that stems from the fact that my views probably carry some significant bias too, right? The bigger the bias, the bigger the pushback, I would think.

From a personal point of view, if every future video game release was not something I was that into I'd just walk away and spend my money on another hobby. Maybe get out of the house more. I'd be sad but "this needs to change to suit me" isn't my style... I hope.

Weltall Zero · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
Personal experience. My bro and sis were not allowed to read Harry Potter when they were growing up. Not even joking. I was a bit too old for all that but, yeah, the local church was on a bit of a tear against HP back in early 2000s.

The main objection my bro and sis had was that all their friends at school were reading them and the reply from my folks was more or less "we need to be better than them".

So if it's a bad comparison then fair enough. I'm calling it as I perceive it.

You, personally, having suffered at the hands of Christian Harry Potter-phobia does not make the comparison any less shitty. Hell, if anything it should be a blaring indicator that objectivity went out the window. This "if it's a bad comparison" stuff is no different than politicianspeak non-apologies. Do you, yourself, realize it's a terrible comparison, or not?

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
You, personally, having suffered at the hands of Christian Harry Potter-phobia does not make the comparison any less shitty. Hell, if anything it should be a blaring indicator that objectivity went out the window. This "if it's a bad comparison" stuff is no different than politicianspeak non-apologies. Do you, yourself, realize it's a terrible comparison, or not?

Sorry. I meant if you think it's a bad comparison then fair enough. We can agree to disagree. I think it's reasonable.

If a persons belief system or ideology, or whatever you want to call it, prescribes that the world be interpreted in a certain way then you get people demanding that others "do better".

As much as you or I may think that the character designs in XC2 are awful there are obviously plenty of people out there who disagree. So, I don't think it's on me to say anything other than "it's not for me". Not these depictions are disgusting or inappropriate or whatever. They aren't illegal or anything, right?

And, again, if this kind of thing is damaging then it's time to talk regulation or prohibition. I'd then just look at how we deal with other sexualised content. Porn etc. Maybe we confine these kind of games to the top shelf or the back room or maybe we slap an 18+ sticker on the box and prosecute stores who sell this content to minors.

Otherwise it does kind of feel like I am imposing, or at least trying to impose, my tastes or preferences on others when I could just pick up a different game.

esserius · May 11, 2018

Just gonna throw this out there, but if you're a good person, you're a feminist. Being a feminist is just, quite simply, being in support of more equitable treatment for women.

A basic feminist critique of video games is one which examines the treatment of women in video games and is not about purity. I'm not really sure why you're so stuck on this idea but it seems to be a recurrent theme in your posts, Sutarufosu that you keep coming back to feminism using purity as a means of analysis. This simply isn't the case.

Also, no analysis of entertainment is objective, because the media itself has no objective base. It's why fiction can take us to so many different places and can connect in so many different ways. But, the reason there is push back against media that normalizes systemic forms of repression is simply because it limits the media, and by extension, what all of us can see and experience. We want the nature of any media to be one which is thriving, and normalization of harmful representations of people causes harm to both the media and strengthens the systemic repression by further normalizing it.

The goal of feminism is simply to break down these systemic repressions and ensure that life is more equitable and fulfilling for everyone. This includes the media we all consume.

RalchAC said:
Esserius doesn't want games to be more ethical but feels that the game does a poor job at selling Kratos behavior as flawed and sees a disconnect between what the game wants to sell to its audience and what's happening on screen. Which I'd argue is a fair argument, even if you disagree, because there is a degree of disconnect between those and different people are able to ignore it better than others.

I personally really liked the game, but I think it's fair game to take others opinions seriously even if you don't share them.

Free public Healthcare for me is a basic human right, so if a game was framing it as bad and never challenged the characters for being against it I would never get it. As an European, I still can't get my head around the fact that almost half the US population somehow is against it.

Thanks for this. Also, healthcare is a human right. I'm also in support of Universal Basic Income, but that seems so extremely far away right now as a US citizen.

A lot of glory kids are optional, but I was quite surprised when I found out there is no other way to kill some bigger enemies like the trolls.

I think those can be justified in-game, in the same way Spartan Rage does, but some feel too brutal. It'd have been interesting to have both a "moderate" and a "brutal" R3 grab for different enemies, and have Atreus attitude (and even fighting style) during the game reflect those little choices. Before release it seemed like they wanted to have some decisions shaping Atreus, at least that was my impression reading interviews.

In-game one could kill and the other deal a good chunk of damage or something. You could map that decision to R1 and R2.

In your answer to a previous post, I'd argue that cutscenes in this game overall have a more intimate feeling and are closer to the characters' faces so you can see their emotions, so people seeing the new game may think that the mocap is really well done too :P

I'm not sure it's so much about its justifiability as it is necessity. Kratos constantly teaches Atreus to be efficient, clean, and precise, but when Kratos fights, he's really anything but. It's just this constant feedback loop of usable advice shoved against an individual that completely ignores the advice they're giving that gets to me.

StoveOven · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu The purpose of most criticism is not official legal action or the alteration of already released products. It's simply the hope that discussing what some people see as problems and why they see them as problems will make more people think about those things more in the future. Media criticism is often a pursuit of longterm cultural change, not immediate and reactionary action.

Sutarufosu · May 11, 2018

esserius said:
Just gonna throw this out there, but if you're a good person, you're a feminist. Being a feminist is just, quite simply, being in support of more equitable treatment for women.

Yup. Totally agree.

The problem with applying that to the media we consume is that we don't ALL consume ALL media. There is a space for a range of choices and there are options to consume or not consume as one sees fit.

However, if we want to come to the conclusion that some media can be damaging and a cause of oppression and a source of harm to members then I see no other option than to discuss regulation and/or prohibition.

I mean, the peak of all the discussion on this stuff would have been 2014 to 2015, right? Yet, in 2018 we still have the same content being released over an over. Sure, it maybe largely driven out of the AAA sphere (for the better I think) but it still exists. One could argue that a different approach from Ubisoft or the bigger developers has reduced the problem but it's still there, just not quite as visible.

If the goal is that it's OK so long as it's not mainstream then that's a worrying thing because it's almost like we'll allow the harmful content to exist but we just won't allow it to be out in the open.

esserius · May 11, 2018

The goal was clearly delineated. I don't know where you're getting prohibition and regulation or arguments about the situations in which it is or isn't ok.

RM8 · May 11, 2018

Kain-Nosgoth said:
Just curious, what do you think about this character design? Sorry if it derails the thread, i just sometime read it, without participating too much

I like this design. It's sexy, but not stupid or vulgar IMHO.

hoodoowolf · May 11, 2018

JadedWriter said:
I find it interesting that it would be a rather unique art style for a AAA game, but at the same time I'm glad they didn't use it because I don't think the game would've been as popular if they had used it. And yes it would not have worked with the games aesthetic. It would be almost as if a Kingdom Hearts character fell into the game.

Where do I find this? It sounds interesting but I am unable to find it by searching on Google.

RalchAC · May 11, 2018

hoodoowolf said:
Where do I find this? It sounds interesting but I am unable to find it by searching on Google.

I got some results with this search.

Jaded Photographer · May 11, 2018

hoodoowolf said:
Where do I find this? It sounds interesting but I am unable to find it by searching on Google.

I think there are a couple of different looks Aloy had before they finalized it, all are pretty good.

This is her look from 2013:

hoodoowolf · May 11, 2018

RalchAC said:
I got some results with this search.

JadedWriter said:
I think there are a couple of different looks Aloy had before they finalized it, all are pretty good.

Thank you both of you. :)

Jaded Photographer · May 11, 2018

hoodoowolf said:
Thank you both of you. :)

You're welcome. I honestly think HZD had a very strong visual look from day one, it was all just about fine tuning and finding a tone that they like. All of the Aloy's I posted would be a great character to play as from a visual perspective.

Laiza · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
Yup. Totally agree.

The problem with applying that to the media we consume is that we don't ALL consume ALL media. There is a space for a range of choices and there are options to consume or not consume as one sees fit.

However, if we want to come to the conclusion that some media can be damaging and a cause of oppression and a source of harm to members then I see no other option than to discuss regulation and/or prohibition.

I mean, the peak of all the discussion on this stuff would have been 2014 to 2015, right? Yet, in 2018 we still have the same content being released over an over. Sure, it maybe largely driven out of the AAA sphere (for the better I think) but it still exists. One could argue that a different approach from Ubisoft or the bigger developers has reduced the problem but it's still there, just not quite as visible.

If the goal is that it's OK so long as it's not mainstream then that's a worrying thing because it's almost like we'll allow the harmful content to exist but we just won't allow it to be out in the open.

I don't know why you're so fixated on regulation. Can it really not be that we just want developers to think about these things and put a little more effort into the work they're putting out, maybe asking more questions to more varieties of people instead of signing things off with a narrow band of (often homogeneous) higher-ups looking at things?

There's good reasons why no writer worth their salt puts out their first draft without any editing or proofreading. The same should apply to visual media, and it's infuriating that stuff like XBC2 gets shat out with so little oversight. That's not a call for banning - it's a call for greater thought and effort, y'know, better quality, more stuff that actually looks like people put some bloody effort into it. Anyone can easily, trivially design more stupid cheesecake for the consumption of the masses. It takes a lot more effort to make characters who feel like people you can invest in, and that's been a large failing of fictional Japanese media in general this past decade (and change).

Personally, I'd really like to just have female characters who are actually credible as characters and not just bland, trope-ridden eye-candy. Apparently, however, that is just too much to ask from certain circles...

Morrigan · May 11, 2018

Kain-Nosgoth said:
Just curious, what do you think about this character design? Sorry if it derails the thread, i just sometime read it, without participating too much

Oh hey I backed that game. Yeah, she's fine .Conventionally sexy/attractive but quite tasteful.

Some of those alt costumes they talked about in the backer updates are cringeworthy though.

StoveOven said:
Sutarufosu The purpose of most criticism is not official legal action or the alteration of already released products. It's simply the hope that discussing what some people see as problems and why they see them as problems will make more people think about those things more in the future. Media criticism is often a pursuit of longterm cultural change, not immediate and reactionary action.

This.
It was never about censorship or regulation.

Weltall Zero · May 11, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
However, if we want to come to the conclusion that some media can be damaging and a cause of oppression and a source of harm to members then I see no other option than to discuss regulation and/or prohibition.

I think this is the crucial misstep in your logic. And at a glance it's an easy one to make, i.e. "you are arguing that something is damaging" is intuitively similar to "you're arguing that something should be banned". But then again, we agree that saturated fats are bad, and I don't think cheese or croissants are in any danger of being banned. We just inform people so that they don't drop dead from a heart attack. Same here: letting people know "yes, these depictions of women are unhealthy and damaging to males' perception of and interaction with women, so please tone it down a notch" is already a powerful force for change, and indeed we've seen more and more developers expressing realization of these issues and a personal attempt to avoid them.

I also think you've constructed your argument backwards. You're saying you think it would be a mistake to ban sexualized games, because "to each their own"; and from there, you conclude that they can't be called damaging, because otherwise we'd be asking to ban them. This, obviously, makes zero sense. Either they're socially damaging or they're not, but the decision of what to do about them (if anything) cannot have any bearing on the assessment itself.

Deleted member 41271 · May 12, 2018

Sutarufosu said:
However, if we want to come to the conclusion that some media can be damaging and a cause of oppression and a source of harm to members then I see no other option than to discuss regulation and/or prohibition.

Movie criticism. Movie criticism isn't about banning bad movies, it's about having a conversation and improving the medium. Bad movies still get made. Nobody banned horrible movies for being terrible or sexist.

But the conversation led to movies that are better on this topic. Games are no different. There will always be terrible games, but if a conversation doesn't exist, games can only be terrible. It doesn't need regulation to ban bad games, it just needs discussion, people thinking about what they are doing, and having alternatives.

Endgame, end result: A richer medium, everyone wins. I genuinely do not understand how "they are criticizing videogames" leads to "they must want to ban videogames", it's a thought process completely divorced from reality.

RpgN · May 12, 2018

esserius said:
I understand that they are trying. I appreciate that they are trying. But calling the fact that they are trying a revelation feels disingenuous. I feel like we're treating these issues with kid gloves, yet are attempting to have a discussion with adults. It is not my intent to complain, but to offer criticism where I feel it is warranted. I finished the God of War game, but came away with a very different impression, and saw a story that presented as many problems as it fixed. I think that, while it can be great to know what you got right, it doesn't usually help you do better. And I want the people who made the games, as well as those who think about games, to be better. I want all of us to be better, myself included.

I'm sorry for replying late but better late than never ;)

While I wouldn't say what they did is a revelation, it is still a significant set-up compared to the previous GoW games. I have read comments from fans who miss old Kratos, the violence and sex and that new Kratos is too mature or relaxed.

I agree that we can always become better and make games better. I'm also glad to read that you appreciate that they are trying but don't you think it is important to show it as well? What does it matter what you think if you only give the impression of being negative? It is important to show appreciation in order to encourage developers when they are in the right path and let gamers know that we are not out to take away their games (as in, we expect a change that is never met causing anxiety to what this change could mean. We need to show what a positive example could mean in order to show them that we want normal games). The way of always offering criticism does not gel with everyone and it can be met with hostility. I feel that Anita has stepped that line a few times and wasn't aware how to handle certain situations more tactfully.

Do you understand what I am trying to say? We are fighting the same fight. There are different ways to achieve the same result. I feel that certain members have crossed the line of sounding too negative and demanding. That leaves a really bad taste to others and undermines the hard work we are all doing regardless of how frustrating the situation is or how often we have to repeat ourselves.

esserius · May 12, 2018

RpgN said:
I'm sorry for replying late but better late than never ;)

While I wouldn't say what they did is a revelation, it is still a significant set-up compared to the previous GoW games. I have read comments from fans who miss old Kratos, the violence and sex and that new Kratos is too mature or relaxed.

I agree that we can always become better and make games better. I'm also glad to read that you appreciate that they are trying but don't you think it is important to show it as well? What does it matter what you think if you only give the impression of being negative? It is important to show appreciation in order to encourage developers when they are in the right path and let gamers know that we are not out to take away their games (as in, we expect a change that is never met causing anxiety to what this change could mean. We need to show what a positive example could mean in order to show them that we want normal games). The way of always offering criticism does not gel with everyone and it can be met with hostility. I feel that Anita has stepped that line a few times and wasn't aware how to handle certain situations more tactfully.

Do you understand what I am trying to say? We are fighting the same fight. There are different ways to achieve the same result. I feel that certain members have crossed the line of sounding too negative and demanding. That leaves a really bad taste to others and undermines the hard work we are all doing regardless of how frustrating the situation is or how often we have to repeat ourselves.

I understand what you're trying to say, and while I do think I can be a touch negative, I don't think I'm being too demanding. I know a lot of people really enjoyed the latest God of War game, and that's great. There are things I liked about it too, such as the voice acting and the environments. But forums should encourage criticism as well as excitement in equal measure, and my own feelings about God of War 2018 are very much a drop in the bucket compared to the effulgent praise heaped on the game. I don't think I'm doing harm in criticizing aspects I saw as falling short. I think people should be encouraged to provide criticism so long as it is respectful, and I believe I'm doing that. I apologize if my comments have come off as disrespectful, as that was never my intent.

I know that making video games is a hard job, and expectations just make the work all the more challenging. Nevertheless, every creator should always be striving, and in order to do that, a feedback loop about both the good and bad aspects of the game needs to exist for people to take reference from. It may seem axiomatic, but knowing what is problematic is just as important as knowing what's working. It's also very hard to see those problems without a different set of eyes viewing the media, and problems, especially those longstanding, tend to be a lot more insidious and require a great deal more work to resolve, mostly because they're under your nose the whole time without you noticing. Finally, even if people notice the problem, if no one takes action, the issue will remain. Unless someone points it out, it will never be examined in the first place. Realistically, God of War 2018 is just getting to the starting line with a lot of issues (particularly so regarding toxic behavior), and I think it's important to appreciate that.

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