Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Laughing Banana · Nov 10, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Thanks for being willing to walk that back. The thread isn't about representation. It's specifically about sexualized character designs that we can post, analyze, and debate how they could have been improved. I think it's important for your points about sexualization in games to be considered seriously that we take the time to go through these games and be constructive in order to say how they can be improved. The context of your post was that there are nearly no options for women to invest themselves in gaming without being presented with hypersexualized representations of themselves. I disagree with that.

From my perspective, I don't know how the Zelda, Pauline, Lara Croft, and Dorothy designs could be made less sexualized in context of their own games. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Hohh... do some people really consider the designs of new Lara sexualizes her?

Surfinn · Nov 10, 2017

Laughing Banana said:
Hohh... do some people really consider the designs of new Lara sexualizes her?

Yeah I don't see how she's sexualized in any real way.. as somebody who beat the game

Morrigan · Nov 10, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Three games? Jotakori I'm calling bullshit. I'm looking at The Last Guardian, Breath of the Wild, Super Mario Odyssey, Uncharted: The Lost Legacy, Horizon: Zero Dawn, Resident Evil 7, Cuphead, Prey, The Evil Within 2, and Gravity Rush 2 right in front of me, not to mention the digital copies of What Remains of Edith Finch, Steamworld Dig 2, Sonic Mania, Stardew Valley, Rise of the Tomb Raider, and Hollow Knight.

She said "games in my collection". The type of games she cares about, which may or may not be this utterly irrelevant list you decided to rattle off for no reason, often feature fanservice, and so telling her to "play something else" is not helpful.

Actually you are literally telling her to play something else now, when I think about it. Suppose she wants to play JRPGs and fighting games, genres which heavily feature objectified women. You're telling her "go play What Remains of Edith Finch and Resident Evil 7". It's absurd and insulting.

Laiza · Nov 10, 2017

Gunblade47 said:
Fully agree with the OP on this. Cindy's design is aweful. It make zero sence for a car mechanic to be dressed like a victoria's secret model.

Another problem I have is in MMOs. Armorkinis on female characters when the male version is a full suit of armor aside. A thing that annoys me there is when MMOs force a female character to always wear stilettos. Doesnt matter if you're gonna be running through scorching desert sands, trecking through swamp muk or climbing frozen peaks for the rest of your time in the game.

It's a MMO. Give your players a choice dammit.

So much this!

The MMORPG is my dream genre - the ultimate form of escapism. It's bloody off-putting, then, when the double standard is on full display in the vast majority of games in the genre. There's not much I can do about it either, as the very nature of the genre means there's a few titans and a few stragglers and not much in-between. All the folks defending this crap really do not, and possibly cannot, understand my pain.

I just want to make a character that fits my ideal (note: this usually means heavy application of physical androgyny) and not what some heterosexual cisgendered guy thinks is ideal. That should be the whole point of a full-on roleplaying game, right? But I'm so limited by the options they give me it's infuriating. Just give me the options, people! That's all I want!

Laughing Banana · Nov 10, 2017

Surfinn said:
Yeah I don't see how she's sexualized in any real way.. as somebody who beat the game

Yeah, I think she's great, and I greatly favor her new design over the old one.

I also legit think Rise is a better game than Uncharted 4, and I greatly prefer playing as her instead of Drake, haha.

Morrigan · Nov 10, 2017

No complains that nu-Lara is overly sexualized, it's probably just another strawman. She's a terrible character for other reasons though. :D

Surfinn · Nov 10, 2017

Morrigan said:
No complains that nu-Lara is overly sexualized, it's probably just another strawman. She's a terrible character for other reasons though. :D

What don't you like about game Lara, out of curiosity? And what do you think about the design of movie Lara?

Though it's probably going to suck as a film

Aprikurt · Nov 10, 2017

For me it's the damaging fact that young boys grow up with that being their idealised woman. Goes for all media really, not just games.

So many horrifically sexist and damaging viewpoints established permanently at an early age

incogneato · Nov 10, 2017

Morrigan said:
No complains that nu-Lara is overly sexualized, it's probably just another strawman. She's a terrible character for other reasons though. :D

To be completely honest, MOST gaming writing is severely lacking. The mere fact that a plot like The Last of Us achieves so much praise in gaming circles is a testament to this.

marimo · Nov 10, 2017

BossLackey said:
I was waiting for this response.

I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, I agree with everything you've said. But on the other hand, I don't think "hardcore" (for lack of a better word) video games appeal to most women on a fundamental level. Are there female gamers? Of course, but the amount of women that are as invested in the hobby as men are is incredibly low. There are a TON of well rounded female characters in video games. I myself have played as a female character countless times. There are a thousand RPGs where you can create or select a female character. Are women going out in droves to buy the new Tomb Raiders, Horizon, The Last of Us II, Metroid, Beyond Good and Evil, Left 4 Dead, etc.? I don't really know, but my guess is they are not. That means there is currently little to no incentive for publishers to appeal to female gamers.

I think the argument that video games are dominated by males because everything is catered to males is completely backwards. I think they are catered to males because video games are a predominately male hobby.

What are you basing this on, though? Your gut feeling? I think it's notable that despite decades and decades of the games industry catering almost exclusively to male gamers, there's still a sizeable percentage of women in the total pool of gamers. To me, that indicates that there's nothing intrinsic to video games that is offputting to women, quite the opposite actually. If you look at the games with an unusually high number of female players, like Dragon Age or Overwatch, it's pretty clear that if devs and publishers put the effort into considering their female audience, the female audience will show up.

I'm also curious what your definition of "hardcore" is, because everyone seems to define it differently.

Jotakori · Nov 10, 2017

Morrigan said:
She said "games in my collection". The type of games she cares about, which may or may not be this utterly irrelevant list you decided to rattle off for no reason, often feature fanservice, and so telling her to "play something else" is not helpful.

Actually you are literally telling her to play something else now, when I think about it. Suppose she wants to play JRPGs and fighting games, genres which heavily feature objectified women. You're telling her "go play What Remains of Edith Finch and Resident Evil 7". It's absurd and insulting.

Yes, thank you!
As it so happens, most of the games I like to play are JRPGs which is why "play something else" doesn't really work so well in my case.

kiriku · Nov 10, 2017

Just wanted to say I agree with the OP and a number of great posts here. I'm a man and I'll admit I was kind of ignorant about these issues up until a few years ago. I enjoyed my games and didn't really care much beyond that. Then I started seeing more discussions about these matters popping up. Read about them and the perspectives of many women who play games. Eventually I started thinking about what I'm experiencing when, say, playing a game for example. And how I would feel about it if I was a woman myself. Sounds like a simple thing, but it was an eye-opener to me.
And as a developer, I'm hoping I can change this situation for the better.

Redcrayon · Nov 10, 2017

ScreenSplitter said:
For me it's the damaging fact that young boys grow up with that being their idealised woman. Goes for all media really, not just games.

So many horrifically sexist and damaging viewpoints established permanently at an early age

Yeah, like you say, multiple viewpoints. You've also then got young girls growing up seeing some of the most common depictions of a young boys idealised woman in a mainstream game played by teenagers, and wondering 'should I look like that?'. Talking about media engagement amongst kids/adolescents shouldn't just be a feminist issue, that's why I'm glad these threads are a recurring discussion as there are so many linked talking points.

Media is pervasive and influential, especially amongst adolescents. That's why it's important to talk about this stuff and look at different perspectives as it's influence extends far beyond just adult men with a laser focus on 'they want to take my cartoon boobs away'.

Jade · Nov 10, 2017

I hate how women were represented in The Witcher 3. I hated seeing Yennefer naked in the beginning. Like I really didn't need to see her ass at all. Really turned me off from the game; didn't play more than 4 hours of it.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 10, 2017

Jotakori said:
Yes, thank you!
As it so happens, most of the games I like to play are JRPGs which is why "play something else" doesn't really work so well in my case.

Morrigan said:
She said "games in my collection". The type of games she cares about, which may or may not be this utterly irrelevant list you decided to rattle off for no reason, often feature fanservice, and so telling her to "play something else" is not helpful.

Actually you are literally telling her to play something else now, when I think about it. Suppose she wants to play JRPGs and fighting games, genres which heavily feature objectified women. You're telling her "go play What Remains of Edith Finch and Resident Evil 7". It's absurd and insulting.

Should this criticism of sexualized character designs be specifically aimed at JRPG character designs then? Or fighting game character designs then? The insinuation that there aren't fighting games ("Pokkén Tournament DX", "For Honor", "Arms") or JRPGS ("Pokemon", "Fantasy Life", "Ni No Kuni 2", "Undertale", "Valkyria Chronicles") that don't feature sexualized characters doesn't hold up. Does this mean we can't do better? Of course not. we can always do better.

But neither of those two genres is representative of the industry at large. JRPGs have been in decline for over a decade. Similarly, fighting games constitute less than 1% of all games in 2016 and 2017. Here's a list of every single video game released in 2017. We can literally measure how widespread sexualized character designs in games, give examples, and come to a consensus of far we've come and far we still need to go. We don't need to be anecdotal about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_in_video_gaming
http://store.steampowered.com/sale/2016_top_sellers/

For example there were 14 fighting games released in 2017:

Injustice 2
Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite
Brawlout
For Honor
Brawlhalla
Arms
Gundam Vs.
Blade Strangers
Nidhogg 2
Overgrowth
Omen of Sorrow
Pokken Tournament
Tekken 7

It shouldn't take long for someone to do a 2017 analysis to see what percentage of the industry the fighting genre constituted, how much of that was sexualized content, and how well such games sold. This is a big step in making things better and clarifying the extent of the problem.

Laughing Banana · Nov 10, 2017

Morrigan said:
No complains that nu-Lara is overly sexualized, it's probably just another strawman. She's a terrible character for other reasons though. :D

Hahaha, well, I am not gonna lie that part of the reason why I like her was because her features are close to what I consider as an ideal woman so I am really biased for that, and that accent is killer too.

Not gonna try to argue that objectively speaking she's not a good character though, haha.

Jade said:
I hate how women were represented in The Witcher 3. I hated seeing Yennefer naked in the beginning. Like I really didn't need to see her ass at all. Really turned me off from the game; didn't play more than 4 hours of it.

Well, the Witcher is a series where once you collect cards with sexualized images of women as a reward for doing quests... so yeah.

Murkas · Nov 10, 2017

I hope Monster Hunter World lets female characters wear the male armour sets or transmog them visually.

Not made a single female character in that series due to how awful the armour looks on them.

Also who else does the shoulder turn? Where you're minding your own business playing a game and then bam, Quiet is bending over on the helicopter or a 1000 year old demon is in a vampire metal bikini so you quickly look over your shoulder to make sure no one is walking past and would see the TV.

someday · Nov 10, 2017

Jade said:
I hate how women were represented in The Witcher 3. I hated seeing Yennefer naked in the beginning. Like I really didn't need to see her ass at all. Really turned me off from the game; didn't play more than 4 hours of it.

It was really, really terrible, especially after that bad-ass opening sequence of hers. I easily could have ignored it (and frankly, I loved Witcher 3 and have played it through several times) but they never once show Geralt's naked body, not even in the scene when he's getting out of the bathtub and is obviously as naked as she is. It's incredibly blatant that he is treated with more respect than any of the women characters in that regard. Or maybe CDPR just assumed guys would freak out if they had to see his ass, and reading some of a different thread, I suppose many of them would have.

Laughing Banana said:
Well, the Witcher is a series where once you collect cards with sexualized images of women as a reward for doing quests... so yeah.

Are you talking about the Gwent cards? Or is this an earlier game in the series?

Murkas · Nov 10, 2017

someday said:
Are you talking about the Gwent cards? Or is this an earlier game in the series?

In the first Witcher game (maybe 2nd?) there were collectables that had stuff like this on

This is one of the tamer ones that I could post. Also LMAO PUSSY CAT BY HER VAGINA, GET IT?!?!?!?!

Jotakori · Nov 10, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Should this criticism of sexualized character designs be specifically aimed at JRPG character designs then? Or just fighting game character designs then?

Even then, neither of those two genres is representative of the industry at large. JRPGs have been in decline for over a decade. Similarly, fighting games constitute less than 1% of all games in 2016 and 2017. Here's a list of every single video game released in 2017. We can literally measure how widespread sexualized character designs in games, give examples, and come to a consensus of far we've come along and far we still need to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_in_video_gaming
http://store.steampowered.com/sale/2016_top_sellers/

So what, you're trying to suggest JRPGs and fighting games aren't worth criticism because they're not as big a part of the market as other game genres?
And come on I mean, the post directly above yours and below yours criticizes The Witcher 3, which I haven't played but I'm fairly certain is neither of those so please don't try to play that game with me like it's something that only exists in JRPGs and the such. And again, I was only talking from my experience in gaming because newsflash I don't speak for everyone and am not trying to, yet you keep trying to invalidate what I say by making it sound like I'm attempting to do that. And as to your stealth edit which I am too lazy to re-quote to include -- a handful of games without blatant sexualization do not erase the handfuls and handfuls that do have it. Plus, Undertale isn't even Japanese and while I haven't played all of those JRPGs ones I have are not completely without issue (but would fall down to nitpicking which I'm certain you would brush off so I'm not even bothering) and a quick google of Valkyria Chronicles at least makes me highly doubt it is completely without any sexualization at all. I don't play fighter games so I'm not going to bother commenting on your little list of them.

Tbh, I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at anymore at this point, because it's starting to come across like you're either being purposely obtuse just for the sake of arguing or you're trying to prove sexualization isn't an issue when it is.

Redcrayon · Nov 10, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Should this criticism of sexualized character designs be specifically aimed at JRPG character designs then? Or fighting game character designs then? The insinuation that there aren't fighting games ("Pokkén Tournament DX", "For Honor", "Arms") or JRPGS ("Pokemon", "Fantasy Life", "Ni No Kuni 2", "Undertale", "Valkyria Chronicles") that don't feature sexualized characters doesn't hold up. Does this mean we can't do better? Of course not. we can always do better.

Valkyria Chronicles is a strategy rpg where female members of a platoon of fantasy-WWII- era light infantry go into battle to fight in trenches and kneel behind sandbags and assault rural villages wearing short skirts and stockings while their male allies get practical outfits. This kind of one-sided sexualisation where men get a nod to practical combat gear to make the army look competent and their immediate sisters-in-arms have to look nice and show off their legs, in comparison to female soldiers, police officers and emergency first responders the world over, is pretty much what the thread is about. Wouldn't the supply depot of a poor nation rather just supply uniforms in a variety of shapes and sizes rather than socks for the men and stockings for the women? I mean, if half the cast get combats because they want the platoon to look practically equipped, why does the other half not? Couldn't they have made the female uniforms similar yet still attractive? No one would expect half a platoon to go into trench warfare in short skirts. This is actually a real issue for real-life female soldiers etc, where combat gear, body armour etc isn't always form-fitting in the right places. I know that if I was outfitting a mixed platoon I'd want them in similar gear so as not to highlight any differences etc, and when the story deliberately doesn't highlight difference in the platoon as a cultural thing, it seems odd that the uniforms do just to please the imagined viewer. I think the female troops would look just as cool and pretty in full uniform.

That doesn't mean I think some of the female characters aren't awesome etc- I think Alicia (sp?) and Welkin's romance, as a baker and a teacher that get caught up in the fighting rather than being natural badasses, was really quite sweet for leads in a computer game referencing continent-wide warfare.

Principate · Nov 10, 2017

someday said:
It was really, really terrible, especially after that bad-ass opening sequence of hers. I easily could have ignored it (and frankly, I loved Witcher 3 and have played it through several times) but they never once show Geralt's naked body, not even in the scene when he's getting out of the bathtub and is obviously as naked as she is. It's incredibly blatant that he is treated with more respect than any of the women characters in that regard. Or maybe CDPR just assumed guys would freak out if they had to see his ass, and reading some of a different thread, I suppose many of them would have.

Are you talking about the Gwent cards? Or is this an earlier game in the series?

You collected sex cards after having sex with women in the first game.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 10, 2017

Jotakori said:
So what, you're trying to suggest JRPGs and fighting games aren't worth criticism because they're not as big a part of the market as other game genres?
And come on I mean, the post directly above yours and below yours criticizes The Witcher 3, which I haven't played but I'm fairly certain is neither of those so please don't try to play that game with me like it's something that only exists in JRPGs and the such. And again, I was only talking from my experience in gaming because newsflash I don't speak for everyone and am not trying to, yet you keep trying to invalidate what I say by making it sound like I'm attempting to do that. And as to your stealth edit which I am too lazy to re-quote to include -- a handful of games without blatant sexualization do not erase the handfuls and handfuls that do have it. Plus, Undertale isn't even Japanese and while I haven't played all of those JRPGs ones I have are not completely without issue (but would fall down to nitpicking which I'm certain you would brush off so I'm not even bothering) and a quick google of Valkyria Chronicles at least makes me highly doubt it is completely without any sexualization at all. I don't play fighter games so I'm not going to bother commenting on your little list of them.

Tbh, I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at anymore at this point, because it's starting to come across like you're either being purposely obtuse just for the sake of arguing or you're trying to prove sexualization isn't an issue when it is.

Of course, they're worthy of criticism. Everything is worthy of criticism. My point of contention was simply how widespread sexualized designs are in the industry. The links and the examples of the fighting games is a very, very easy way to measure that.

someday · Nov 10, 2017

Murkas said:
In the first Witcher game (maybe 2nd?) there were collectables that had stuff like this on

This is one of the tamer ones that I could post. Also LMAO PUSSY CAT BY HER VAGINA, GET IT?!?!?!?!

Ugh.

Principate said:
You collected sex cards after having sex with women in the first game.

Really?!? That's so incredibly gross. If this had been in the 3rd game, I would have sold it before finishing.

Redcrayon · Nov 10, 2017

Murkas said:
I hope Monster Hunter World lets female characters wear the male armour sets or transmog them visually.

Not made a single female character in that series due to how awful the armour looks on them.

Also who else does the shoulder turn? Where you're minding your own business playing a game and then bam, Quiet is bending over on the helicopter or a 1000 year old demon is in a vampire metal bikini so you quickly look over your shoulder to make sure no one is walking past and would see the TV.

I do the shoulder turn all the time. Not so much because of my wife, who pretty much thinks games are irredeemable at this point after all the bizarre sexual moaning some female characters do when they get hurt, but for my daughter's sake.

Agree on MH armour.

Remnant · Nov 10, 2017

The answer is based on the fact that men don't try to search for excuses for which they are ostracized – personal thought but a realistic one. Even then, I don't even find many of those stereo-typically sexualized outfits to be titillating in the first place. For me it feels like... meh, I'll get over it very quick eventually.

Principate · Nov 10, 2017

someday said:
Ugh.

Really?!? That's so incredibly gross. If this had been in the 3rd game, I would have sold it before finishing.

Theu drop it after the first one but the juvenile nature doesn't exactly fully disappear as you noticed.

incogneato · Nov 10, 2017

Remnant said:
The answer is based on the fact that men don't try to search for excuses for which they are ostracized – personal thought but a realistic one. Even then, I don't even find many of those stereo-typically sexualized outfits to be titillating in the first place. For me it feels like... meh, I'll get over it very quick eventually.

Wait, I'm confused.

For the purpose of clarification: you're answering the topic headline, correct? And your response to women criticizing female sexualization is because of their predisposition to look for excuses for their ostracization in the gaming community?

I don't want to be misconstruing your statements before I engage in discussion.

Lime · Nov 10, 2017

Dr. Monkey said:
DerpHause, Gabe, you're right - I was being a bit reductive, so I'm sorry, that was ill worded. It's just that the consumerist angle can be a troublesome one and I tend to have a strong reaction to it. When it comes to protest by the marginalized, voting with our wallets can be a risky proposition. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and in an industry/community already all too happy to pretend we don't exist, don't play, don't buy games, and don't matter, we can't erase ourselves. That's the only point I'm trying to make. As many overlaps as gaming does have with other media and media markets, it also has some very specific divides, splits, trends, and issues that are unique and they can be a struggle to navigate.

The "voting with your wallets" sentiment that posters like DerpHause and Gabe are advocating is in my experience with the argument just a way to 1) shut down criticism by making qualitative feedback irrelevant and 2) reduces human experience and communication to an entirely economic endeavor, 3) humans are only worth respecting thanks to their impact on the market. The argument rests on the some incredibly dangerous implications - that people only matter by virtue of their buying power and they do not have any moral rights as human agents. It is the exact same neoliberal logic that Adrienne Shaw criticizes in Gaming at the Edge where marginalized groups are only included if they are a sizeable market for capitalism.

It is perhaps one of the most cynical arguments I encounter in these sorts of discussions where "vote with your wallet" is seen as this form of consumer activism, when in fact, it reduces human expression and political resistance to a question of economics and it throws any non-significant economic marginalized group under the bus. Well-meaning people use it (like Gabe and Derphause probably), but they do not realize the implications of what they are advocating.

Gabe · Nov 10, 2017

Lime said:
The "voting with your wallets" sentiment that posters like DerpHause and Gabe are advocating is in my experience with the argument just a way to 1) shut down criticism by making qualitative feedback irrelevant and 2) reduces human experience and communication to an entirely economic endeavor, 3) humans are only worth respecting thanks to their impact on the market. The argument rests on the some incredibly dangerous implications - that people only matter by virtue of their buying power and they do not have any moral rights as human agents. It is the exact same neoliberal logic that Adrienne Shaw criticizes in Gaming at the Edge where marginalized groups are only included if they are a sizeable market for capitalism.

It is perhaps one of the most cynical arguments I encounter in these sorts of discussions where "vote with your wallet" is seen as this form of consumer activism, when in fact, it reduces human expression and political resistance to a question of economics and it throws any non-significant economic marginalized group under the bus. Well-meaning people use it (like Gabe and Derphause probably), but they do not realize the implications of what they are advocating.

To answer your points:
1) shut down criticism by making qualitative feedback irrelevant
I never, not once, said qualitative feedback is irrelevant nor do i implied as much. I said it's less effective when not backed up by actions, i don't think there's much that can be argued about this. I don't make the rules.
2) reduces human experience and communication to an entirely economic endeavor
I'm all for philosophical and ethical talks but if you ask companies to change or modify their products, again, the fastest way to accomplish that is to have money sing the same tune of your voice.
3) humans are only worth respecting thanks to their impact on the market
See answers 1 and 2.

About this:

Lime said:
The argument rests on the some incredibly dangerous implications - that people only matter by virtue of their buying power and they do not have any moral rights as human agents. It is the exact same neoliberal logic that Adrienne Shaw criticizes in Gaming at the Edge where marginalized groups are only included if they are a sizeable market for capitalism

I appreciate your input and i understand the sentiment, but there is a reason why i used examples that are backed up by results in both revenue and corporate commitment/attention while they have no gender or marginalized group implications.

Surfinn · Nov 10, 2017

Jade said:
I hate how women were represented in The Witcher 3. I hated seeing Yennefer naked in the beginning. Like I really didn't need to see her ass at all. Really turned me off from the game; didn't play more than 4 hours of it.

Yup. I really don't get how people excuse this kinda stuff. It's very clear the way a lot of women are represented in not only this game, but the original, where you collect cards for sleeping with women.

I lasted just as long as the original.. around half hour/hour.

Also the fact that Geralt is some hot stud that seems to have women fawning over him. Shit like that really takes me out of games quick.

Principate said:
Theu drop it after the first one but the juvenile nature doesn't exactly fully disappear as you noticed.

Yep.

Morrigan · Nov 10, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Should this criticism of sexualized character designs be specifically aimed at JRPG character designs then? Or fighting game character designs then?

Once again you are completely missing the point.

But neither of those two genres is representative of the industry at large. JRPGs have been in decline for over a decade. Similarly, fighting games constitute less than 1% of all games in 2016 and 2017.

What if you had a woman tell you they were her favourite genres, and she was alienated by gaming because JRPGs that don't constantly feature sexualized women are just the one aimed at younger audiences (Ni No Kuni and Pokémon)? All the major franchises, from Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Tales of, Xenoblade, Trails of Cold Steel, Ys, Persona, Bravely Default, Fire Emblem, all Vanillaware games -- they all heavily feature sexualized female characters (and other sexist tropes too), sometimes egregiously so. (Valkyria Chronicles is no exception either, in addition to what Redcrayon talked about, it features a woman whose breasts are larger than her head and who, of course, conveniently wears a skin-tight suit)

It's not that there are 0 games without objectified women, it's that objectification is common and the norm, rather than the exception. No one would care if women only got objectified in niche Compile Hearts games and they left Fire Emblem and Xenoblade alone, but they care because it's so pervasive in the genre. And that's just JRPGs, which I used as example, but the point can apply to other genres too.

So for the last time, telling a fan of those games "go play Ni No Kuni" is insulting and counter-productive and totally missing the point, and I encourage you to drop this line of rhetoric.

Dr. Monkey · Nov 10, 2017

Gabe said:
About this:

I appreciate your input and i understand the sentiment, but there is a reason why i used examples that are backed up by results in both revenue and corporate commitment/attention while they have no gender or marginalized group implications.

Data is not neutral. There are implications.

Bricks · Nov 10, 2017

Jade said:
I hate how women were represented in The Witcher 3. I hated seeing Yennefer naked in the beginning. Like I really didn't need to see her ass at all. Really turned me off from the game; didn't play more than 4 hours of it.

I suppose there must have been a straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, if you continued playing for 4 hours instead of closing the game right away?

Cream · Nov 10, 2017

Surfinn said:
Yup. I really don't get how people excuse this kinda stuff. It's very clear the way a lot of women are represented in not only this game, but the original, where you collect cards for sleeping with women.

I lasted just as long as the original.. around half hour/hour.

Also the fact that Geralt is some hot stud that seems to have women fawning over him. Shit like that really takes me out of games quick.

Yep.

I hear you and agree with most of this but purely anecdotally, I've got female friends very much into Geralt who love how hot they made him.

DerpHause · Nov 10, 2017

Lime said:
The "voting with your wallets" sentiment that posters like DerpHause and Gabe are advocating is in my experience with the argument just a way to 1) shut down criticism by making qualitative feedback irrelevant and 2) reduces human experience and communication to an entirely economic endeavor, 3) humans are only worth respecting thanks to their impact on the market. The argument rests on the some incredibly dangerous implications - that people only matter by virtue of their buying power and they do not have any moral rights as human agents. It is the exact same neoliberal logic that Adrienne Shaw criticizes in Gaming at the Edge where marginalized groups are only included if they are a sizeable market for capitalism.

It is perhaps one of the most cynical arguments I encounter in these sorts of discussions where "vote with your wallet" is seen as this form of consumer activism, when in fact, it reduces human expression and political resistance to a question of economics and it throws any non-significant economic marginalized group under the bus. Well-meaning people use it (like Gabe and Derphause probably), but they do not realize the implications of what they are advocating.

1) I can only guess you didn't read my post as I stated purchase decisions empower feedback. Additionally that it wasn't a this and nothing else suggestion. Further earlier in the thread I flatly stated purchase decisions alone don't work as they fail to communicate why a purchase wasn't made, but that was several pages ago and I wouldn't blame you for not having seen it. That still doesn't excuse missing the post being refered to though as it wasn't far from what you quoted.

2) Already covered in 1.

3) No, with the explanation already laid out more than once that the critique needs to happen openly for the economic side of things to work on top of the acknowledgement that critique can and should have its own effect we're simply stating that otherwise uncaring individuals who have the capacity to make the changes may well do so if that financial incentive is present. The prevalence of sexualization in gaming would stongly suggest a lack of either knowledge or concern about the problem and sliding sales may just get heads in the industry looking around to find out why and see these conversations.

By all means, do as you will, but piracy aside women in gaming are an economically enabled and numerous group. And much like money and the capacity to manipulate votes guides governance more that the capacity to properly govern, money may provide the extra momentum needed to push the argument forward. Obviously this is far from ideal in terms of garnering respect and understanding of what isn't respectful, but this conversation exists because conditions are not ideal.

Jade · Nov 10, 2017

Bricks said:
I suppose there must have been a straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, if you continued playing for 4 hours instead of closing the game right away?

Well, not playing the game anymore just because of that would be pretty unreasonable of me wouldn't it? I gave it a fair shot but everything about the game was very uninteresting to me, except the graphics. Graphics were great.

Cream said:
I hear you and agree with most of this but purely anecdotally, I've got female friends very much into Geralt who love how hot they made him.

Geralt's body is quite hot actually. I remember seeing him naked in the bathtub with his legs open like that actually turned me on *blush*. His face, hair color, and personality are what make him super boring.

Bricks · Nov 10, 2017

Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!

I couldn't help but LOL.

Morrigan · Nov 10, 2017

LOL, that looks like a Compile Heart game.

Talraen · Nov 10, 2017

Dr. Monkey said:
I confess I'm disappointed some of y'all keep bringing up the same stale points like that particular one hasn't been debated to death.

I dunno about you, my dude, but I will pick my battles and where and how I spend my time. You don't have a right to anyone's time or argument.

I assume you're hung up on my stance that criticism is (in some cases) censorship. So let's replace "censorship" with "suppressing unacceptable content." Can you then point me towards any debate about the point I was presenting, which is that I think we should be suppressing unacceptable content when that content is harmful (in this case, to women)? I don't recall that being debated much at all here, let alone "to death."

Bricks · Nov 10, 2017

Jade said:
Well, not playing the game anymore just because of that would be pretty unreasonable of me wouldn't it? I gave it a fair shot but everything about the game was very uninteresting to me, except the graphics. Graphics were great.

With that, I couldn't agree more.
It's just that, like Surfinn, you sounded really put off by that scene, so I was actually surprised you lasted as much as 4 hours.

Dice · Nov 10, 2017

Bricks said:
Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!

I couldn't help but LOL.

Even as a big Xenoblade fan, this bullshit here makes my eyes roll to the back of my head.
I REALLY don't get this, like a good 80% of these "rare blades" have been young, had giant titties, or in this case, both.

Deleted member 401 · Nov 10, 2017

Bricks said:
Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!

I couldn't help but LOL.

It's really sad to see a Nintendo first-party go all-in on loli crap.

Redcrayon · Nov 10, 2017

Bricks said:
Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!

I couldn't help but LOL.

I take back all my previous comments about the lead bloke's trousers. They aren't the silliest thing about the game anymore :D

Chamaeleonx · Nov 10, 2017

weemadarthur said:
This is simply inaccurate. If you are going to comment on physiology, you should have studied it first.
Breast size is not related to milk production.

I was not talking about scientific way but rather an instinctive feeling. I am aware that size has nothing to do with the production of milk, but that is newer knowledge and has nothing to do with how men viewed women for aeons. For them it is a positive to have bigger breast, be it consciously or unconsciously due to ancient instinct.
I understand why you are upset though and I haven't studied physiology, but I never made this comment in the frame or view of physiology but rather how things are viewed. But I am still sorry if it offended you the way I stated it.

Gabe · Nov 10, 2017

Dr. Monkey said:
Data is not neutral. There are implications.

Can you elaborate?

ourghostsofwar · Nov 10, 2017

Morrigan said:
Once again you are completely missing the point.

What if you had a woman tell you they were her favourite genres, and she was alienated by gaming because JRPGs that don't constantly feature sexualized women are just the one aimed at younger audiences (Ni No Kuni and Pokémon)? All the major franchises, from Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Tales of, Xenoblade, Trails of Cold Steel, Ys, Persona, Bravely Default, Fire Emblem, all Vanillaware games -- they all heavily feature sexualized female characters (and other sexist tropes too), sometimes egregiously so. (Valkyria Chronicles is no exception either, in addition to what Redcrayon talked about, it features a woman whose breasts are larger than her head and who, of course, conveniently wears a skin-tight suit)

It's not that there are 0 games without objectified women, it's that objectification is common and the norm, rather than the exception. No one would care if women only got objectified in niche Compile Hearts games and they left Fire Emblem and Xenoblade alone, but they care because it's so pervasive in the genre. And that's just JRPGs, which I used as example, but the point can apply to other genres too.

So for the last time, telling a fan of those games "go play Ni No Kuni" is insulting and counter-productive and totally missing the point, and I encourage you to drop this line of rhetoric.

I take exception that Pokemon and Ni No Kuni are for kids. That's insulting everyone who likes those games, including me. I don't have statistics for those specific games but I do have the statistics for Pokemon Go. I think you're trying to paint those franchises as such in order to insinuate that I'm being insulting when I'm not. Pokemon and Ni No Kuni are both franchises that millions of adults play. Here are the statistics straight from Nintendo:

Second, you've misinterpreted my intent. My argument isn't that JRPGS don't have a sexualization issue. They clearly do. But there are alternatives for people who don't want to put up with that. Pokemon and Ni No Kuni are just two examples. We're saying the same as each other. You're just choosing to level "encouraging" threats at me for saying it in a different way even when we're both in agreement over this.

Moreover, the thread called out the industry at large and not one or two small segments. JRPGS aren't representative of the industry at large. 99% of the money being made in the industry comes from Games as a Service. Here's a simple question: How much of a norm are sexualized character designs in the industry at large when taking into account the amount of money that is being made and what is being played most? This is specifically what I want to learn.

100 most played games on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
Best-selling games on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames
Best-selling games of 2016: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/2016s-best-selling-games-in-the-us-revealed/1100-6447090/
Best-selling games of 2017: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/top-20-best-selling-games-in-the-us-for-september-/1100-6454298/

In general, at a glance, the situation isn't catastrophic as some in this thread are making it out to be. There's more money to be made in gender-neutral Games as a Service type games than in games where the characters are heavily sexualized which, quite frankly, makes a stronger argument to developers to follow in this line of development and supports what I imagine you want to happen: less sexualized characters. Then again, I don't think I'm the most qualified person here to determine what constitutes sexualized or not. Plenty of people are better suited to decide that than I am.

ClickyCal' · Nov 10, 2017

Bricks said:
Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!

I couldn't help but LOL.

Wow, pretty awful. Fire Emblem and now this seem borderline pathetic in the pandering of some of these designs.

Ferrs · Nov 10, 2017

Xenoblade 2 designs are legit one of the most horrible designs I have even seen in the latest years. It seems like a parody, but sadly it isn't.

Redcrayon said:
I take back all my previous comments about the lead bloke's trousers. They aren't the silliest thing about the game anymore :D

I mean, atleast the guy is (of course) covered properly, while the pink haired girl goes around with some cyber-micropants.

weemadarthur · Nov 10, 2017

Chamaeleonx said:
I was not talking about scientific way but rather an instinctive feeling. I am aware that size has nothing to do with the production of milk, but that is newer knowledge and has nothing to do with how men viewed women for aeons. For them it is a positive to have bigger breast, be it consciously or unconsciously due to ancient instinct.
I understand why you are upset though and I haven't studied physiology, but I never made this comment in the frame or view of physiology but rather how things are viewed. But I am still sorry if it offended you the way I stated it.

Inaccuracy is rather offensive to me, yes.

Now I want you to think about the implications of what you have said in the last couple of posts you made.

Your statement is that, in your view, males view immaterial data as relevant to reproduction, and therefore as an evolutionary impulse. Which would, in conclusion, indicate that males are inherently backward due to failure to respond to material data, which would according to standard theory, result in poorer mate selection. Do you fully understand these implications, or are you just talking to see your avatar repeatedly?

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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