This is so important! Nobody minds main characters looking sexy, regardless of gender. But sexy IS NOT the same as sexualized and degrading.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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This is so important! Nobody minds main characters looking sexy, regardless of gender. But sexy IS NOT the same as sexualized and degrading.
Is this shit for real?Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!
I couldn't help but LOL.
We should've known it was coming after Fire Emblem Awakening, to be honest.
Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!
I couldn't help but LOL.
Jesus this is abysmal. Who finds these balloon-headed goblins appealing?
Except that breast are as perfect an indicator of reproductive capacity as you're going to find. Developed breasts mean 1) sexual maturity, 2) being reasonably well-fed, the two most important factors in reproduction in a hunterer-gatherer (i.e. last evolutionarily significant) society.
Not like it matters. The animal kingdom is filled to the brim with physical characteristics, mostly on males, like the peacock's tail, that are not logically related to reproductive quality (and in fact, are actively hindering it), beyond signifying that the ones having them are healthy and have the resources to grow and display them. They evolve in a self-sustained feedback loop: members of the species are attracted to them because it makes their potential descendants with that mate more attractive in turn. Finding "right" or "wrong" in these characteristics is completely absurd. (random human example: voice depth in men).
Sorry that this got pedantic and off-topic but I can't let such flagrant ignorance of basic evolutionary theory stand. :/
I feel the issue is finding the line between sexy and objectified. Everyone has a different threshold, thus it makes it hard to determine what is just attractive, and what is sexist.
Someones sexualized and can be another's empowered, and a good design to one can be a terrible design to another.
I feel these kinds of discussions can be really difficult because these things are very subjective and everyone approaches these things from a diffrent point of view.
For example I made a thread a couple of days ago called " Sexualized designs do not equal bad designs."
https://www.resetera.com/threads/sexualized-designs-do-not-equal-bad-designs.4361/
I approached this topic from the viewpoint of an artist and how I judge all designs by their merit as character designs.
One may approach this topic from a feminist theory perspective, like Anita Sarkessian for example .
It can be pretty hard to come to a conclusion, since every one handles this diffrently.
That is absolutely true. But I do think there are some guidelines that are universal. If the outfit doesnt make any sense given the context its used in, and is only meant to show as much skin as possible then its sexualised. IE Quiet in MGS or Cindy in FFXIV.
YEP. And honestly between how irredeemably bad and flatout uncomfortable some of the designs were in the last few Fire Emblems and now Xenoblade 2, I'm so stressed about Fire Emblem Switch being something I'll have to play in spite of itself or even not at all.
Obviously these things have reprocussions much worse than me personally being put off by them, but how are they getting worse. How.
I think the big thing with sexualization and how subjective it is is that the characters need to, well, act like characters. When you have them wearing hardly any clothing, or bending over cars for no reason (like Cindy in FFXV), or their game-art poses being hard to pull off if not impossible in real life, it becomes a bit ridiculous.
Oh my god! This is just straight up Escher Girl trash. And I though some of Sharla's outfits from the first Xenoblade was trashy.Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!
I couldn't help but LOL.
Those are CHOCO arts. That's what you get when you get CHOCO (and I'm guessing these designs are probably on the "tame" side of things for him).
I assume Monolith got him because he's also worked with them before (Xenosaga and Xenoblade X, though the latter was Mech Design), and he's a famous artist in doujin.
I assume Monolith got him because he's also worked with them before (Xenosaga and Xenoblade X, though the latter was Mech Design), and he's a famous artist in doujin.
Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!
I couldn't help but LOL.
If Xenoblade isn't a game about the medical journey of two girls healing from their broken spines then what's the point of drawing them like this
Given how 99% of these Rare blades are drawn by guest artists, we could use Xenoblade Chronicles 2 as an example of just how prolific (not to mention how generic) this type of sexualization is getting. What really annoying is that, even within the game's own universe, these costumes don't make a like of sense. To the point where people were confusing one of the females for a guy...because she dressed in a complete, senseible outfit. Like...really?
Actually, I don't feel like letting this go. People were saying they thought that this:
looked too much like a guy. And actually, can we get more designs like her in general? Because as much as I like Laura, Chole, Elena, and others, they're still wearing semi-generic clothes. This actually is a character designs that looks cool and doesn't have her wearing a two piece and call it a design.
looked too much like a guy. And actually, can we get more designs like her in general? Because as much as I like Laura, Chole, Elena, and others, they're still wearing semi-generic clothes. This actually is a character designs that looks cool and doesn't have her wearing a two piece and call it a design.
Thank you!Actually, I don't feel like letting this go. People were saying they thought that this:
looked too much like a guy. And actually, can we get more designs like her in general? Because as much as I like Laura, Chole, Elena, and others, they're still wearing semi-generic clothes. This actually is a character designs that looks cool and doesn't have her wearing a two piece and call it a design.
Most of the "appropriate" designs of women feel so horrifyingly dull that even as a woman they barely feel better than the sexualized designs. Heck, maybe it's worse in a way, at least I feel annoyance and embarrassment at sexualized designs and not just utter boredom. I just can't bring myself to want to buy a game where the character is just wearing a grey T-shirt even if the games that avoid being brain-breakingly dull are just hideously bad with their designs of women at times.
More non-sexualized women characters with actual distinctive designs. Please.
Heck, guys don't even need pandering as far as I can tell, out of all the women in Fire Emblem Awakening the one that actually tries to pass themselves off as a guy and wears the least revealing clothes gets some of the most attention. Meanwhile sexualization actively serves to make things more uncomfortable for women, so. . .what would be the actual loss scaling it back?
She's great, but BGAE was relesaed in 2003. A more modern example would be Aloy, which I do very much appreciate, but it is a problem I find. Most female designs go for really lazy cheesecake or go for generic. Though I will be honest and say I personal will go fo generic over cheesecake because at least I'm not rolling my eyes if it the cheesecake is egregious.
Blizzard also tends to have more interesting full body female designs but even then there are problems, though at least they stopped giving every woman high heels in Overwatch.
Silver chestplate equipped on a male characte:
Silver chestplate (exactly the same item) equipped on a female character:
I love Dragon's Dogma, but it's not exempt from sexist shit like this, sadly. It also has tons of women-only equipment pieces that are nothing more than lingerie. And 90% of the pawns you can hire are loli females dressed like that.
That said I don't disagree with your post in general, just want to show that yes, even in games where people might not realize there is fanservice, there actually is, lol.
Believe me i really didn't see that. (i didn't played so long yet and didn't look so deeply because enjoying with battle system so much.) Eventually a JRPG so didn't shocked, lol. But i also seen these for mens when i look Google, so at least that's a bit equality. I seen loli but without dressed like this, (for now) probaby these are happened because game engine did random characters with random armors, so lazy and bad look. Also we can't deny there are awesome diversity in DD world as faces and body types.
Btw, please share with me any disagrees about my post, i'm always open to listen your words. I'm also thinking to make a game someday so your messages extra important to me.
So I kinda stopped paying attention to this game after the 5th shitty design or so, who's this?Actually, I don't feel like letting this go. People were saying they thought that this:
looked too much like a guy. And actually, can we get more designs like her in general? Because as much as I like Laura, Chole, Elena, and others, they're still wearing semi-generic clothes. This actually is a character designs that looks cool and doesn't have her wearing a two piece and call it a design.
Actually, I don't feel like letting this go. People were saying they thought that this:
looked too much like a guy. And actually, can we get more designs like her in general? Because as much as I like Laura, Chole, Elena, and others, they're still wearing semi-generic clothes. This actually is a character designs that looks cool and doesn't have her wearing a two piece and call it a design.
Totally agree. I would love to see designs with real personality that aren't super sexualized. Atelier and Fire Emblem both have some great character designs for women, but unfortunately, both franchises have a lot of awful designs too. I especially liked Threia Hazelgrimm in Atelier Escha & Logy.
Goddamn after the main characters I guess they just said "fuck it" and went all in on the stupid.Cmon it ain't that bad. Why would anyone feel any shame for playing the game in public with a character like this?
She's alright, but it says something that she's the only woman people can bring up as an example of this half the time. . .
. . .And that the only thing I can remember about her most of the time is the green lipstick. She's better than most of the big headliners of recent years, but her design still isn't as memorable as dozens of male characters from both then and now. Honestly I don't think she's a very good example of a non-sexualized design not being tepid.
I tend to find nonhuman and outright anthropomorphic characters leave a bigger impression even if apparently by whatever metric representation uses they don't "count," but even so how many of those are women protagonists either? I guess there's that one from Freedom Planet. . .Lilac? I almost forgot her name for a bit. But while I think she's better about it than Jade, Lilac doesn't leave the biggest impression either.
To provide a character I actually do think is a nice design contrast, Inklings are a great example of a design I like for being able to actually stand out as a girl character. But it's still the inhuman head that carries almost the entire thing even in that case. The clothing usually ranges from mildly distinctive for one specific detail to just being unmemorable.
Maybe I should amend my definition. I want something flashy. Oozing with cool. Casual wear is pretty hard to do that with, you need something a little goofier. Crazier. Or heck, just not streetwear or modern field military gear. Unfortunately women in flashier designs typically get turned into display pieces to show off boobs and butt. I'd like to see more of the same kinds of fully dressed awesome designs guys get.
Actually, I don't feel like letting this go. People were saying they thought that this:
looked too much like a guy. And actually, can we get more designs like her in general? Because as much as I like Laura, Chole, Elena, and others, they're still wearing semi-generic clothes. This actually is a character designs that looks cool and doesn't have her wearing a two piece and call it a design.
Yes, please. This type of design looks amazing to me. I do enjoy unique looking armors and uniforms and the like.
Oh I know. I am just kinda baffled to hear that some actually found the designs for new Lara is sexualized.
Heck, there's even conversation about people thinking her various grunts when hurt or doing something exhausting as sexual moans. I mean, wtf?
Well, they've actually been converted to that use, so yeah, I can see it.
I'm not sure I want to know, lol, but what do you mean by 'converted to that use'?
Yeah, DD does get a lot of things right. Their character creator is the best I've seen in terms of choice of body types, skin tones, hair styles etc. You can make anything from a waifish child to a little old dude to a big tall burly man or woman. It's great. And for the most part the armour designs aren't too bad. But it does fall prey to obnoxious "lingerie" armour tropes from time to time, such as the woman-only pieces of gear that are really just underwear, and of course that "unisex" silver chestplate that magically turns into a metal bra when worn on a woman. There's also a pretty goofy-looking boobplate (when there's individual boob sockets on the breastplate) on an otherwise pretty cool and badass female warrior NPC (Mercedes).Believe me i really didn't see that. (i didn't played so long yet and didn't look so deeply because enjoying with battle system so much.) Eventually a JRPG so didn't shocked, lol. But i also seen these for mens when i look Google, so at least that's a bit equality. I seen loli but without dressed like this, (for now) probaby these are happened because game engine did random characters with random armors, so lazy and bad look. Also we can't deny there are awesome diversity in DD world as faces and body types.
Btw, please share with me any disagrees about my post, i'm always open to listen your words. I'm also thinking to make a game someday so your messages extra important to me.
Unrelated to armour design it also has an utterly bizarre and broken "romance" system, as well as a side-quest involving a romance with a female NPC that completely ignores the aforementioned in-game affinity system, it's completely cringeworthy (you basically help out the duchess with her personal problems, and she automatically falls in love with you and there's a fade-to-black kind of cut scene suggesting your character slept with her and you can't choose not to, lol... it's really dumb). So yeah, it ain't perfect, but I still love the game and wish it were better. :)
Well, I see the point about the moans, really. It sounds a bit... iffy, more sexual than sounds of pain or exertion sometimes. Compared to grunts of pain or whatever from other recent female protags (such as Emily, Aloy, the Borderlands ladies, etc.), it's noticeable. It used to be a rather common thing, too, but fortunately I think it's becoming less common.
Ironically, she was revealed before all of the shitty character designs...ok, after the first main shitty character design, but still. She's Morag, Grand Inquisitor, and she's a major apparent enemy in the game.
The SFM crowd consists of two communities: inexplicably poor quality comedies and inexplicably high quality porn. Guess which community gets the vast majority of Patreon money?
This is probably the best summary of what SFM has brought us I've ever seen.
Cracked the loli dial up to 11 on this game. JFC!Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!
I couldn't help but LOL.
Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!
I couldn't help but LOL.
This is kinda tame for the artist standard. I kid you not.
Design like this is what you get if you let artist goes on their own devices.
Actually, I don't feel like letting this go. People were saying they thought that this:
looked too much like a guy. And actually, can we get more designs like her in general? Because as much as I like Laura, Chole, Elena, and others, they're still wearing semi-generic clothes. This actually is a character designs that looks cool and doesn't have her wearing a two piece and call it a design.
Oh yes, this is good design! It's nice to look at and more practical than your usual design.
Most of the female knight design just love to slap boob plate and call it a day as if they want to shout "Look! A Female Knight!". I hate boob plate with a passion.
I quite like the Inquisitor design too, reminds me of 18th century soldiers in the Peninsular war with the shako (tall, cylindrical hats), central plume and bold colours. That people think she looks male because the shading around her chest is relatively subtle is on them, perhaps they are just used to it being so overt.
As a set of characters the designs and art styles do lack cohesiveness though, it's all over the place and mostly very poor.
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Speaking of Xenoblade, latest news!
I couldn't help but LOL.
They look no older than 12 (barring the massive tits on the first one) and I want to die
It seems like a misleading phrase on my part. I meant that men don't try to rationalize or excuse use of their sex in video games and in social media in particular, at least that's how I see it. As for myself, the second part of my reply was about my two-cents on women in video games in general.
The Xenoblade designs almost make me want to give up on the game entirely. I was wary of the character designs originally shown for the game, but decided to pick up a switch anyways. After all, the original game had some pretty terrible costumes, but for the most part, I could overlook them.
But it's truly incredible that Xenoblade's character design is a collaborative effort, and almost every single one is terrible. You'd think that blade designs outsourced to various artists would provide decent alternative to the poor designs for the main cast, but they're all terrible. I think I'm reaching a point where I won't want to find these rare blades. Assuming they're obtained through exploration, I can't help but feel that they'll be a disincentive for me to explore. Now I'm really beginning to question my Switch purchase - I don't think I want to pick up Xenoblade 2.
But it's truly incredible that Xenoblade's character design is a collaborative effort, and almost every single one is terrible. You'd think that blade designs outsourced to various artists would provide decent alternative to the poor designs for the main cast, but they're all terrible. I think I'm reaching a point where I won't want to find these rare blades. Assuming they're obtained through exploration, I can't help but feel that they'll be a disincentive for me to explore. Now I'm really beginning to question my Switch purchase - I don't think I want to pick up Xenoblade 2.
Nintendo and Monolith probably exist in a bubble where these criticisms don't exist and this conversation isn't being had.
Rare Blades are opened in a gacha like system so I don't think they're necessary, which makes the huge twitter/Japanese push they're getting baffling. The worlds are what we buy your games for, Monolith Soft, not whatever ecchi some artist manages to dreg up. I actually will be picking up this game, mainly to test a theory that's been in my head I've noticed with these characters and how the camera seems to avoid the more ecchi side (at least I hope it does. I'll admit as an asexual who hormonally doesn't understand sexual attraction,
Eh, given how NoA has noticeably been mum on the Rare blades to the point of cutting the English version of the direct in half, I wouldn't say that is the reason. The equally cynical reason (like, don't get me wrong, this is just as bad, just a different type of bad) is that they knew what type of audience they are going for and decided to just play to that crowd exclusively to the exclusion of everyone else. Which is a shame because it does seem like these Rare Blades don't play a large role in the story. Pyra does, but the camera seems to really try to go out of its way to avoid showing off how ridiculous that outfit is (like, I didn't even realize that the back of Pyra's outfit pretty much didn't exist because barely any of the art or the trailers show it). Which, at the point, the question becomes, if you guys seem to really know how stupid the design is to the point of hiding it every second...why not just get a better costume design in the first place?
This is a really good point, and one that needs to be repeated again and again, especially when you get drive-bys popping in, ignoring 37 pages of thread to say "designers know who their audience is." The thing is, with games, there's shaky data in all areas when it comes to buyers v consumers and no telling what people might play if there was more growth in some of these areas. Personally, I find myself buying more and more smaller titles and supporting super indies and just donating to creators, because they're out there experimenting and taking risks and trying new things. I understand that there's a lot of money on the line with big studios and AAA games, but there are examples of games that do just fine anchored by non-sexualized female characters (other issues I have with HZD aside, it is a good example of this) and at this point, I think it's harder to make excuses. Games will sell if women aren't reduced to love interests if it's a good game. Games can feature strong female friendships and journeys of discovery and still sell (see Life Is Strange). Games don't have to be any one thing. And yet.
But there is evidence that these things are changing, beyond just what we note in our various anecdotal perspectives, and I'm glad. I see different attitudes in my students as well, and many of them are seeking jobs in the industry, and that heartens me further.
I think it's difficult to attach words like "empowered" to fully created characters, as they lack agency. There's a weird gray area here in film/television and a weirder gray area in voiced game characters/animation, but particularly when you largely have men creating women in games when women appear, I think this is a difficult argument to make. This isn't to say we can't see evidence of feminist (I mean this in the academic/methodological sense, not the ever-shifting mainstream application) game design moves in games created by men, but rather just to say that "empowerment" may not be the best word. Sam Barlow's Her Story is a strong example here. Sure, the story incorporates a lot of tropes (standard), but features a nuanced, woman-centered story (turns out talking about this is hard due to spoilers, though). Is the main character, however one wants to interpret that, empowered? I don't know if I could say yes, unconditionally; that gets us into discussing if empowerment can be given or granted*. Empowerment is about claiming or realizing power.
*yes, one of the denotative meanings is "giving" someone the power or right to do something but that isn't the meaning used for discussing empowerment in this sense
To be honest?
I've never seen any criticism come from anywhere but the opposite direction for this franchise until the moment Pyra was revealed, and that's a big part of what frustrates me. By the time anyone bothered to say anything about this franchises' issues other than that they were mad that X's localization was getting censored (for having boob sliders and an underaged girl in a bikini), the game was already neck deep in development and trying to get around those complaints by working internationally to ensure nothing in any version of the game crossed a ratings line (which is -still- causing these types to flip out).
Anyone who actually cared about how troubling Xenoblade design was practically crawled out of the woodwork for this game after years of pushback from the opposite direction. That's not a bubble, that's people ignoring the franchise until it was actually marketed for a system they care about. Heck sometimes not even that! I can't count how many times I've heard "I know how uncomfortable it was before, but NOW-" as though deliberately turning a blind eye to it until it passed a certain threshold didn't contribute to this.
I just. . .uy. Fire Emblem is so much tamer than what Xenoblade consistently does, but no one ever called Xenoblade out until now. Heck, half the reason Fire Emblem ever gets called out in the first place is only because it steps on the toes of people's nostalgia. I mean, nice that we're having the conversation I guess, but I'm not sure I get the impression most people would legitimately care if it weren't under a heavy veil of genwunning. :/
Was just reading a new collection of essays, and came upon this in a piece by Jennifer Dewinter and Carly Kocurek:
It's one of those stories I'd heard before but had forgotten, basically because it happens often - that moment when the presence of women, and the willingness of men to listen to women, matters.
So I implore you - since it looks like his thread has run its course - hear the voices of women in this thread. They do not all agree. There is nuance; there are lines and levels and gray areas and interpretations, but please hear us. We need more people to listen, even if our experiences are interpretations are different, even if you don't agree.
The book, if you're interested, is Gaming Representation: Race, Gender, and Sexuality in Video Games.
It's one of those stories I'd heard before but had forgotten, basically because it happens often - that moment when the presence of women, and the willingness of men to listen to women, matters.
So I implore you - since it looks like his thread has run its course - hear the voices of women in this thread. They do not all agree. There is nuance; there are lines and levels and gray areas and interpretations, but please hear us. We need more people to listen, even if our experiences are interpretations are different, even if you don't agree.
The book, if you're interested, is Gaming Representation: Race, Gender, and Sexuality in Video Games.
I agree that the cards in the first game were tasteless and they either thought so too or listened to criticism and didn't include them in later games. They've also added small bits of dialogue to even the prostitutes, to give them little character. Ofcourse this isn't much, but it's more than in a game like GTA for example. They have been improving by every game in how they represent women. While they have always had strong female characters, they also have made some poor choices. And it's good that people voice their concerns, since clearly they do care. It's absolutely fine to criticize W3 too, but personally I really can't agree if someone would call the portayal of women in that game sexist/problematic overall. The camera isn't regularly eating on the figure of the women. They use nudity in non-sexual manner too and with characters that are old or not considered "sexy". This also isn't used as a joke, but just natural nudity. The characters aren't dressed in completely ridicilous and over the top sexualized manner, even if they can be considered "sexy". One exception would be Ves ofcourse, the game even comments on it. I'm not really sure what they were trying to say with it, if anything.
In the end, I'd personally say that Witcher 3 should rather be looked at for how to make good female characters than what to avoid when it comes to this type of discussion and Witcher 3. Doesn't mean there couldn't still be some missteps and people shouldn't be able to call them out. But Witcher 3 definitely isn't some big bad in this manner.
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Why not both? Surely they're capable of simultaneously accomplishing these things in their next release.
Yes, there are worse offenders out there, but there are still glaring examples of what not to do in TW3.
Yeah sure, I tried to be clear about that the game can still be criticized, validly so. No game is perfect. Just that if we would put the good and the bad on a scale, the good would be more plentiful.
As you said, why not both. I tried to give the another side of the coin that the perception here wouldn't be that W3 is offensively misogynistic work. Which nobody here ofcourse said to my knowledge, just wanted to give a broader picture.
The easy answer is the target audience doesn't see it as them getting worse, but rather better.
I understand that to some extent, I hate to think of things so broady but it's crazy that treatment and representation of women in Western games is steadily improving while pandering to nice crowds like this has proven pretty effective for Japanese media. Not to generalize, I don't actually know how much worse this has gotten in Japan overall so I may be a lil ignorant here, but it comes off that way if you follow the trajectory of certain game series.
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