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Jim Sterling: Steam Pulling Visual Novels For 'Pornographic Content' Regardless Of Actual Content

Nzyme32

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
dan2026 said:
I don't understand what is wrong with sex scenes in games.
Many games have them now, big budget A+++ included.

Do we want to slide back into the 'thats not appropriate for a video game' era where tons of things were being censored?
I sure don't.
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I don't think there is an issue. I think the actual issue is when have such scenes depicting minors. Really a sizeable part of the issue is on Valve. They haven't really figured a way to have adult content only be accessible to adults. Valve said something to the same affect a while back, in that they think anything legal should be able to be on Steam but this issue is with them to resolve how to actually have that content available to the right people
 
Funny Valentine

Funny Valentine

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,904
Seiru said:
Except we also have mods closing every thread about this story, apparently because Valve hasn't publicly spoken on the issue yet, and thus it's pointless to talk about it. What a catch-22.
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Have fun waiting 2 months for someone at Valve to actually pay attention to a problem not having to do with their immediate money flow.
 
Hate

Hate

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,730
dan2026 said:
Is that true?
What the fuck, that's really shitty.
We have to wait for the 'officail word' before we can discuss any issue now?
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Yeah it's true. While the original thread was locked down because it devolved into something not about the actual topic at hand, the others were dismissed in favor of waiting for an official statement from Valve.
 
mrtl

mrtl

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
827
I don't want Steam become the next Google Play with tons of clones disregarding any form of intellectual property, crapware and straight-up malware. But hey, no porn, right?

But I'm sure Gabe Newell will do a shitty AMA on Reddit and everything will be fine in the end.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Which games has been delisted?

Are there any actual list?

There's some really good VN that could have been pulled.
 
Durante

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Nzyme32 said:
Far too much conjecture in this video, which is clickbaity as per, and in general around the issue. No, not all VNs are getting pulled / warned, which just raised even more questions. Also gotta get that curation angle in somehow, which is not the issue with this.
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I saw a headline earlier today that was literally "Steam bans Visual Novels".
So I opened the Steam store and surprise, every single VN I care about that I can think of off the top of my head (it's a rather sizeable list!) is still available.

Quality journalism.

Relaxed Muscle said:
There's some really good VN that could have been pulled.
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No really good VN has been pulled.
 
BernardoOne

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Nzyme32 said:
I don't think there is an issue. I think the actual issue is when have such scenes depicting minors. Really a sizeable part of the issue is on Valve. They haven't really figured a way to have adult content only be accessible to adults. Valve said something to the same affect a while back, in that they think anything legal should be able to be on Steam but this issue is with them to resolve how to actually have that content available to the right people
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Looking at the actual list of games affect that doesn't seem to be the case so I dont see why people insist on that theory. Doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to to the takedowns
 
Nzyme32

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
Seiru said:
Except we also have mods closing every thread about this story, apparently because Valve hasn't publicly spoken on the issue yet, and thus it's pointless to talk about it. What a catch-22.
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Mods here?
Well in some sense that makes sense because there is so little to go on. Even whatever Valve have said isn't public. Information is 3rd 4th and 5th hand and now there are just conspiracy theories or as in the video, misinformation and clickbait.

It does suck though that the industry is the way it is. For any other industry it would be a whole lot easy to do some investigative journalism and get some real information
 
JCG

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
Valve saying nothing in public and lacking precise guidelines makes for poor policy. The rest of this discussion is just circular.
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
BernardoOne said:
Looking at the actual list of games affect that doesn't seem to be the case so I dont see why people insist on that theory. Doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to to the takedowns
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I think a fair few (don't know if all) had +18 patches, which Valve have allegedly been warning the developers about for since last October.
 
1-D_FE

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,260
Meowmixez said:
How about quality control, instead of content control?
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Because all control is extremely subjective and awful. It makes for a shitty marketplace. The only place it has any actual affect is for a new platform with no actual existing catalog. Whoopitdy-do-dah. It's great rhetoric though. Gets the patreons fired up and funding.
 
NESpowerhouse

NESpowerhouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,677
Virginia
Nzyme32

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
KING said:
I don't know, it could be that I'm just blind.
I still own games in my library that have been previously removed from sale, eg: duke nukem 3D megaton edition.

It does seem weird that they would obliterate every trace of a game.

EDIT: This has been solved, turns out I'm just forgetful.
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They pretty much never will remove a game that you bought from your library. Even if pulled from the store, you can access and play anytime.

The only times things get pulled are if your payment was fraudulent, or if there was some error on the Devs part that Valve agree with, eg Disgaea 5 demo keys were accidentally the full game, so those were pulled from the respective accounts and users were notified.
 

weltalldx

Member
Feb 23, 2018
242
Relaxed Muscle said:
And nothing of value has been lost (and I'm pretty sure most of these can be bought somewhere else)

Still, as usual no communication or whatsoever and this sets a bad precedent.
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You're quick to decide on the value of things. Just because a game is not worthy in your eyes does not mean it lacks value. If it exist, someone must have put some work/effort/reason on why it exist. Value is not up to you, or worst, someone with arbitrary authority to decide things for all without rhyme or reason.
 
SolidSnakex

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,391
Relaxed Muscle said:
And nothing of value has been lost (and I'm pretty sure most of these can be bought somewhere else)

Still, as usual no communication or whatsoever and this sets a bad precedent.
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As Jim mentioned, their next targets are games like Mass Effect and The Witcher. I know dismiss the whole "slippery slope" thing, but this is very much the real definition of a slippery slope.
 
s_mirage

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,773
Birmingham, UK
Shitty behaviour from Steam/Valve again; unclear policies, threatening devs/publishers with delisting despite having actually previously worked with some of the affected devs to ensure compliance, no public comments, and seemingly not even replying to communication from the affected parties. WTF is wrong with Valve's management? Make a policy, communicate what it is, stick to it, and don't dick your customers/clients around.
 
BasilZero

BasilZero

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
36,343
Omni
Damn Sakura series devs got affected but not surprised.

Though they are way more tamed than most others on steam.


At the very least VNs like clannad and higurashi are okay


Edit: dammit, so they are gonna target games like ME? Nooo ;(
 
Metal Slugger

Metal Slugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,424
St. Cloud, MN
User Warned: Threadwhining
Seiru said:
Except we also have mods closing every thread about this story, apparently because Valve hasn't publicly spoken on the issue yet, and thus it's pointless to talk about it. What a catch-22.
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but Jim Sterling tho, we haven't hit our quota of seven separate weekly threads for whatever stupid shit enters his brain and then immediately rockets out of his face
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
weltalldx said:
You're quick to decide on the value of things. Just because a game is not worthy in your eyes does not mean it lacks value. If it exist, someone must have put some work/effort/reason on why it exist. Value is not up to you, or worst, someone with arbitrary authority to decide things for all without rhyme or reason.
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Value to me, of course. I'm sure there's value for some people in these games.
 
low-G

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
Can we stop the shitheels which are trying to hurt small indie devs and ban entire genres of gaming for no reason other than they're being dumb?

Valve needs to reel this shit back ASAP.

Side comment, but I wonder where Valve will draw the line. I suspect they'll look at stuff like Senran Kagura and Gal Gun and say "Well those are out on competitors' (Sony, Nintendo...) platforms, so they're fine." But we shall see. Meanwhile someone can make a way tamer game and because they're small potatoes and not on any other platform, they'll be right in the crosshair to appease religious fundamentalists.

Crazy to believe that Steam may one day be more content controlled than Nintendo's current offerings. It's the bad old days over again.
 
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QisTopTier

QisTopTier

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Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,717
Welp my favorite VN is still on steam so all is good with the world. Kinda funny seeing how fucked up some moments in it can get tho Im not sure how much is removed from the steam release
 
Dark_Castle

Dark_Castle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,147
dan2026 said:
I don't understand what is wrong with sex scenes in games.
Many games have them now, big budget A+++ included.

Do we want to slide back into the 'thats not appropriate for a video game' era where tons of things were being censored?
I sure don't.
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The thing with sex scenes in most VN (I have nothing against VN) is that they're made to titillate players, rather being used as a tasteful bonding intimate moments between two adults. That's why there are adult-oriented games (these are your AAA titles like Mass Effect, Witcher), and then there are porn games. I believe Valve is ok with former, not so much with the latter. Also characters in VN usually are young, too young to be shown in nudity or participating in sexual activities.
 
.exe

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,239
Dark_Castle said:
The thing with sex scenes in most VN (I have nothing against VN) is that they're made to titillate players, rather being used as a tasteful bonding intimate moments between two adults. That's why there are adult-oriented games (these are your AAA titles like Mass Effect, Witcher), and then there are porn games. I believe Valve is ok with former, not so much with the latter.
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Even if this were so, it'd be great if they didn't first make devs jump through hoops to get the game published on Steam and then decide to blacklist them one day without any transparency as to what changed in their policy.
 
Abriael

Abriael

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,605
Milano - Italy
Dark_Castle said:
The thing with sex scenes in most VN (I have nothing against VN) is that they're made to titillate players, rather being used as a tasteful bonding intimate moments between two adults.
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If this is what you seriously think, you must have played very few visual novels, if not none at all.

There is a large difference between eroge (visual novel with erotic content, which very often have fantastic narrative, with which the sex makes perfect sense) and nukige (visual novels in which the story is just an excuse to get to the sex). The vast majority of the genre belongs to the first kind.

That's why there are adult-oriented games (these are your AAA titles like Mass Effect, Witcher), and then there are porn games. I believe Valve is ok with former, not so much with the latter.
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Almost none of the games involved, especially in the form they had on Steam, can be defined even remotely pornographic or "porn games." This is just a misinformative and/or misinformed attempt to make excuses for steam that really are unwarranted.
 
Ferrs

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I'm pretty sure the multinational Valve is doing this ONLY following the orders of the overlords of some random right wing SJW puritanical religious zelaous (what more adjective did I miss?) group.
 
s_mirage

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,773
Birmingham, UK
Dark_Castle said:
The thing with sex scenes in most VN (I have nothing against VN) is that they're made to titillate players, rather being used as a tasteful bonding intimate moments between two adults. That's why there are adult-oriented games (these are your AAA titles like Mass Effect, Witcher), and then there are porn games. I believe Valve is ok with former, not so much with the latter.
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The Witcher 1 awards you sexy (in game) cards for the women you have sex with, so as much as I love that series, and while the later games are much better at giving it a context, you'll have to excuse me for doubting that the sex/nudity in the game was created without half an eye on being titillating. Even in the Mass Effect games it feels a little like an excuse to get some PG-13 rated skin in there at times.

Ferrs said:
I'm pretty sure the multinational Valve is doing this ONLY following the orders of the overlords of some random right wing SJW puritanical religious zelaous (what more adjective did I miss?) group.
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It would seem unlikely, but plenty of companies have caved to "just think of the children" campaigners in the past, or acted on reports without actually verifying them (hi, Youtube) in the past, and Valve needs to clarify their position if this group had nothing to do with this. Hell, Valve needs to clarify their position full stop.
 
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legacyzero

legacyzero

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,252
I'm all for having creepy anime sexual shit on the platform. But once you start tip-toeing in even mere ambiguity of Child pornography level shit, you can fuck right off. Even IMPLIED child sex content needs to be nuked off the planet.

But if we're just trying to tackle mundane shit that doesn't break the TOS, Well that's just stupid
 
Dark_Castle

Dark_Castle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,147
Abriael said:
If this is what you seriously think, you must have played very few visual novels, if not none at all.

There is a large difference between eroge (visual novel with erotic content, which very often have fantastic narrative, with which the sex makes perfect sense) and nukige (visual novels in which the story is just an excuse to get to the sex). The vast majority of the genre belongs to the first kind.



Almost none of the games involved, especially in the form they had on Steam, can be defined even remotely pornographic or "porn games." This is the worst kind of misinformation.
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Yeah, I guess I was thinking more along the lines of nukiges. My bad.
 
Saint-14

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
As long as Steam has a monopoly on the PC market they won't give a shit, honestly it's about time someone comes up and competes with them.
 
cosmicblizzard

cosmicblizzard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Dark_Castle said:
The thing with sex scenes in most VN (I have nothing against VN) is that they're made to titillate players, rather being used as a tasteful bonding intimate moments between two adults.
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This completely depends on the VN. The only time it applies 100% is for nukige. For utsuge, it's going to be a case by case thing.

Most VNs I play that have sex scenes like that aren't meant to titillate, but rather to disturb. Stuff like Saya no Uta or Subahibi are big ones that come to mind.
 
Meia

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,015
Durante said:
No really good VN has been pulled.
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It's a good thing there aren't things called "opinions" where everyone else has a different thought about media of the same type then. :p


Nzyme32 said:
Mods here?
Well in some sense that makes sense because there is so little to go on. Even whatever Valve have said isn't public. Information is 3rd 4th and 5th hand and now there are just conspiracy theories or as in the video, misinformation and clickbait.

It does suck though that the industry is the way it is. For any other industry it would be a whole lot easy to do some investigative journalism and get some real information
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But expecting discussion to only happen if/when Valve comments(which they aren't very likely to do) is kind of laughable, to be blunt. I don't expect them to really say much of anything on the matter, simply because of all of the hypocritical things that have already been pointed out about this issue.


Ultimately people just want "consistency." If something isn't allowed, don't put it on your platform in the first place. If you're suddenly not making something allowed, be uniform about it and very very specific about why. But to collect money off something for years and suddenly get all moral against it is kind of laughable, at best. They can target this, but not the asset flips, huh? :p
 
catswaller

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
if you want to jerk off to anime girl porn that's cool but there's really no reason to have it share (extremely valuable) storefront shelf space with games that are (marginally) less alienating, objectifying, or bordering child pornography. delisting the games from storefront/recommended games/top sellers/new releases space would on the face of it seem like a much healthier policy than threatening total removal, and knowing valve they'll likely mess up the policy and overstep, but painting this as an attack on indies or lgbt values just cuz you got some well funded small teams making male gaze barely legal lesbian sex scene collection games seems a little bit disingenuous.

not a fan of the right wing Moral Watchdog companies being an apparent impetus for that though, doesn't look good for valve's ability to make policy decisions.
 
s_mirage

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,773
Birmingham, UK
I see there's a suggestion that while the games being threatened require patches to unlock the hardcore content, the data/art for content itself may be being distributed in the Steam download. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?
 
Nzyme32

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
Ferrs said:
I'm pretty sure the multinational Valve is doing this ONLY following the orders of the overlords of some random right wing SJW puritanical religious zelaous (what more adjective did I miss?) group.
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This is apparently what happens when people don't have actual evidence and arbitrarily believe any entity saying "it was us dudes" while eating up any clickbait video following same conjecture.

On the one hand Valve need to step up and actually communicate far more publicly when people have concerns, on the other hand, people need to read, think and probably make a narrative on known facts.
 
Hektor

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
dan2026 said:
Is that true?
What the fuck, that's really shitty.
We have to wait for the 'officail word' before we can discuss any issue now?
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No, we were allowed to talk about this, but the thread was completely derailed into the "valve bans pedo games" narrative* and eventually closed because of that.
Don't think one can blame the mods there.
Also didn't help some started posting actual porn.

https://www.resetera.com/posts/8063996/

*for full context, two of the games do feature underage (looking) characters, but most don't as far as i'm aware, so this narrative isn't a complete asspull but still just that, a narrative.

Dark_Castle said:
The thing with sex scenes in most VN (I have nothing against VN) is that they're made to titillate players, rather being used as a tasteful bonding intimate moments between two adults. That's why there are adult-oriented games (these are your AAA titles like Mass Effect, Witcher), and then there are porn games. I believe Valve is ok with former, not so much with the latter. Also characters in VN usually are young, too young to be shown in nudity or participating in sexual activities.
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The scenes in Witcher games aren't there to depict "tasteful bonding", there are there to give the player a boner.
That's why the first game did gave you a tasteful "You banged this bitch, you Alphamale-bro"-Trading card whenever you got laid. Cos that's the kinda people that make these games.
I mean, in the later games, there are definitely also occasional "tasteful" sexscenes, but most are still there to satisfy a "slaying monsters'n'vaginas" power fantasy
 
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