‘This Bill Is Killing Us’: 9 Sex Workers On Their Lives In The Wake Of FOSTA

This bill is so fucked up. Makes me angry.

Nobody cares about sex workers, nobody will care that this bill is actively killing them. So of course it is not going anywhere.

It's just a bill that exists to make people feel like they did something. While it's name doesn't make it look good to not vote in favor of it even if its flawed because no one is going to speak out on their behalf. America doesn't give a shit about the perspective of the sex worker.

I've read alot about how this move endangered alot of workers and makes the trade even more dangerous.

I've even seen Law Enforcement was upset because it ruined their overwatch of the activity in the area and lost tabs on problematic areas.

Seems like a big win for "moral christian values" but turned out to be an empty action that made everything worse.

Go figure

This will be a short time of upheaval, I think. Sites for prostitution will simply move offshore and the status quo will be restored. Eros is still in operation, strangely enough....what makes them think they are immune?

Border said:

This will be a short time of upheaval, I think. Sites for prostitution will simply move offshore and the status quo will be restored. Eros is still in operation, strangely enough....what makes them think they are immune?

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This was pretty much what happened with the Online Poker ban.

Fuck this bill. Fuck dudes who want to control women and blame them for their own sexual repression. Fucking fuck our whole society.

DigitalOp said:

Seems like a big win for "moral christian values" but turned out to be an empty action that made everything worse.

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Huh, who'd have thought.

echoshifting said:

This bill is so fucked up. Makes me angry.

Nobody cares about sex workers, nobody will care that this bill is actively killing them. So of course it is not going anywhere.

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It sucks but I can't say I'm surprised. People still regard sex work as the lowest form work.

where in the article does it say 2 sex workers have been found dead?
sorry i skimmed and then ctrl + f

want to send this to a friend that was all for this bill.

captive said:

where in the article does it say 2 sex workers have been found dead?
sorry i skimmed and then ctrl + f

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I haven't looked at this article yet but a few weeks ago there was a tweet thread going around that keep a running tally on missing sex workers/murders. It was into the double digits iirc.

You can't sex traffic if everyone is dead.

Mission Accomplished.

This country is profoundly stupid sometimes.

This law likely also saves girls from being kidnapped, dosed with heroine, and raped for years before eventually being murdered. Because when it's harder to sell your product (trafficked girls and boys), you do sell less of it and therefore need less of it. So mission accomplished. It's sad that prostitutes have been harmed by it (truly, it is) but they chose their profession and they know the risks - the girls and boys getting trafficked did not.

I shut down a spa recently that advertised "new girls" online. Said "girls" spoke virtually no English beyond what was necessary to provide "services". They lived in squalor in the back room of the unit, beds, a small kitchenette. Cameras everywhere to keep an eye on them. Deadbolts on interior doors. Apparently one had been here a week, the other a month. Chinese nationals.

While the website hosting the adverts was not prosecuted in my case, i view the option to do so as an important tool in driving up the cost of business for these criminals. It is true that these spas existed before the internet, but the internet websites are providing a platform for these illicit businesses to advertise more broadly thus generating a reach of business beyond the traditional location.

I am more concerned with the welfare of these people being trafficked than those who are voluntarily operating in an illegal industry. Those people can choose a different lifestyle that doesn't include unlawful activities, the women and children who are being trafficked cannot.

Carthago Delenda Est said:

This law likely also saves girls from being kidnapped, dosed with heroine, and raped for years before eventually being murdered. Because when it's harder to sell your product (trafficked girls and boys), you do sell less of it and therefore need less of it. So mission accomplished. It's sad that prostitutes have been harmed by it (truly, it is) but they chose their profession and they know the risks - the girls and boys getting trafficked did not.

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They're not censoring the entire internet so it actually does nothing.

I repeat, this bill does nothing except cause harm in the short term.

I'm not surprised that a bunch of religious cunts made everything worse.

Random Painted Highway said:

I shut down a spa recently that advertised "new girls" online. Said "girls" spoke virtually no English beyond what was necessary to provide "services". They lived in squalor in the back room of the unit, beds, a small kitchenette. Cameras everywhere to keep an eye on them. Deadbolts on interior doors. Apparently one had been here a week, the other a month. Chinese nationals.

While the website hosting the adverts was not prosecuted in my case, i view the option to do so as an important tool in driving up the cost of business for these criminals. It is true that these spas existed before the internet, but the internet websites are providing a platform for these illicit businesses to advertise more broadly thus generating a reach of business beyond the traditional location.

I am more concerned with the welfare of these people being trafficked than those who are voluntarily operating in an illegal industry. Those people can choose a different lifestyle that doesn't include unlawful activities, the women and children who are being trafficked cannot.

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Thank you.

My first case involved two counts of child rape. Others had CP, and I still can't purge them from my mind years later.

Add me to the list of those doing whatever's necessary to prevent child abuse and sex trafficking.

It sucks that there may be second-order effects on sex workers, but I'd rather prosecutors have additional tools to combat exploitation.

Random Painted Highway said:

I am more concerned with the welfare of these people being trafficked than those who are voluntarily operating in an illegal industry. Those people can choose a different lifestyle that doesn't include unlawful activities, the women and children who are being trafficked cannot.

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how about this country also does something for the scores of trans women who are forced into sex work due to discriminatory hiring practices and an inability to hold a job because of it then
maybe make things actually better for those "voluntarily operating in an illegal industry".

This was completely expected by anyone who wasn't completely fucking blinded by the "we have to do something!" feelgood nonsense. FOSTA/SETSA is pushing sex work back out onto the streets, giving pimps more power to prey on vulnerable sex workers, and actively hindering law enforcement efforts to combat sex trafficking. And for what? Going after Backpage, which was already on the losing end of a federal prosecution? The actual experts (including the Department of Justice) were saying the bill was a terrible idea and was only going to make the situation worse for victims of sex trafficking, and the evidence so far indicates they were right.

Oh, and the congresspeople who voted for it were also dancing to the strings of Hollywood, who were blatantly using this bill as a test run for weakening Section 230 of the CDA and crippling internet freedom, and also to the strings of a lobby group who are blatantly trying to target sex work and outright want to ban porn. Both groups were shamelessly using the plight of sex trafficking victims as a trojan horse for their own ideological goals.

Fortunately, this law is blatantly unconstitutional, so it'll only take someone willing to take the government to court over it to see how much of the bill can be smashed to pieces.

Carthago Delenda Est said:

This law likely also saves girls from being kidnapped, dosed with heroine, and raped for years before eventually being murdered. Because when it's harder to sell your product (trafficked girls and boys), you do sell less of it and therefore need less of it. So mission accomplished. It's sad that prostitutes have been harmed by it (truly, it is) but they chose their profession and they know the risks - the girls and boys getting trafficked did not.

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Bullshit. This law actually makes it harder for law enforcement to combat sex trafficking due to limiting visibility of it online and forcing it further underground. The Department of Justice outright said as much when they tried to convince Congress to vote against it.

MiraculousSwidge said:

how about this country also does something for the scores of trans women who are forced into sex work due to discriminatory hiring practices and an inability to hold a job because of it then
maybe make things actually better for those "voluntarily operating in an illegal industry".

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That's hilarious, thinking a country that wants us dead will provide any sort of civil support.

They won't stop until there's an official hunting season.

DigitalOp said:

I've read alot about how this move endangered alot of workers and makes the trade even more dangerous.

I've even seen Law Enforcement was upset because it ruined their overwatch of the activity in the area and lost tabs on problematic areas.

Seems like a big win for "moral christian values" but turned out to be an empty action that made everything worse.

Go figure

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As a person raised Christian, this type of legislation infuriates me. Make a moral stand, then do absolutely nothing to deal with the negative effects, or aid the people impacted by your rules.

Abortion. Sex ed. Drug use. These issues and more have been exacerbated horribly by Christian-backed policies. I mean, when I was kid, I was constantly taught that Jesus wants us to be kind to each other, to lend a hand to the homeless, and to treat prostitutes as neighbors. Kinda feel like we lost the thread at some point.

Random Painted Highway said:

I shut down a spa recently that advertised "new girls" online. Said "girls" spoke virtually no English beyond what was necessary to provide "services". They lived in squalor in the back room of the unit, beds, a small kitchenette. Cameras everywhere to keep an eye on them. Deadbolts on interior doors. Apparently one had been here a week, the other a month. Chinese nationals.

While the website hosting the adverts was not prosecuted in my case, i view the option to do so as an important tool in driving up the cost of business for these criminals. It is true that these spas existed before the internet, but the internet websites are providing a platform for these illicit businesses to advertise more broadly thus generating a reach of business beyond the traditional location.

I am more concerned with the welfare of these people being trafficked than those who are voluntarily operating in an illegal industry. Those people can choose a different lifestyle that doesn't include unlawful activities, the women and children who are being trafficked cannot.

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It's illegal only by the force of laws who benefit no one and continually remove from these women the ability to accrue wealth and financial stability. This perception that better protection against trafficking must come at the expense of the lives of sex workers is not real.

This is the kind of post that shows clear disregard for a class of workers and women that is constantly under threat, not the least of which by police, and this forcing them to abandon safe spaces will undoubtedly increase their contact with potential antagonists, and increase their chances of being assaulted and trafficked. Yet, somehow, this law that takes away from sex workers the ability to maintain work safety through allowing them control over their professional habits is supposed to help trafficked sex workers.

This isn't saving anyone.

so, where do people go now to ?

there is a need for sex.

Random Painted Highway said:

I shut down a spa recently that advertised "new girls" online. Said "girls" spoke virtually no English beyond what was necessary to provide "services". They lived in squalor in the back room of the unit, beds, a small kitchenette. Cameras everywhere to keep an eye on them. Deadbolts on interior doors. Apparently one had been here a week, the other a month. Chinese nationals.

While the website hosting the adverts was not prosecuted in my case, i view the option to do so as an important tool in driving up the cost of business for these criminals. It is true that these spas existed before the internet, but the internet websites are providing a platform for these illicit businesses to advertise more broadly thus generating a reach of business beyond the traditional location.

I am more concerned with the welfare of these people being trafficked than those who are voluntarily operating in an illegal industry. Those people can choose a different lifestyle that doesn't include unlawful activities, the women and children who are being trafficked cannot.

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Except all this bill is hurt people that aren't the victims you describe while doing nothing to help the people you describe.

Smashing watermelons with a sledgehammer and chanting a prayer to the flying spaghetti monster would be about as helpful without hurting people.

Kmonk said:

As a person raised Christian, this type of legislation infuriates me. Make a moral stand, then do absolutely nothing to deal with the negative effects, or aid the people impacted by your rules.

Abortion. Sex ed. Drug use. These issues and more have been exacerbated horribly by Christian-backed policies. I mean, when I was kid, I was constantly taught that Jesus wants us to be kind to each other, to lend a hand to the homeless, and to treat prostitutes as neighbors. Kinda feel like we lost the thread at some point.

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I don't think you understand why this legislation exists. It's not an attack on prostitutes. They are collateral damage.

Carthago Delenda Est said:

I don't think you understand why this legislation exists. It's not an attack on prostitutes. They are collateral damage.

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Oh, we know why it exists. It exists so politicians can score political points for "doing something" on an issue while ignoring the harm and ignoring that the law does absolutely nothing to help the issue and in fact makes it worse. Oh, and it also exists for certain lobby groups to restrict internet freedom for their own ends, including one lobby group who know the "collateral damage" would happen and outright wanted it.

The law is way too damn broad and non-targeted to not be an attack on prostitutes, either. If the people who voted for this bill really cared about sex trafficking victims, they would've listened to the experts, including, again. the Department of Justice. Also, the anti-sex-trafficking groups who supported the bill consider consensual adult sex work to be sex trafficking, even though that's flagrantly bullshit.

Carthago Delenda Est said:

This law likely also saves girls from being kidnapped, dosed with heroine, and raped for years before eventually being murdered.

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how? *those* people of any and all of them are likely to be the most driven, most resourceful, and most invested perpetrators in sex trafficking, and they are not likely to be stopped by some inconveniences like missing websites and banned accounts.

This law stops the people that were not so worried about being visible, but wanted to exist in a legal gray area. The people doing straight up professional kidnapping to sex slavery were not relying on free personal ads and free websites to make their business.

Fucked up. Even if you are against the concept of prostitution, any legislation should be constructed in such a way that the sex workers and their safety are protected.

I've still yet to hear a convincing argument for why Sex Work shouldn't be legalised. The only argument I've seen that intentionally has a good point, is the rise of Sex Trafficking in nations that legalised. However the argument against this is pros vs cons. You might see a rise in Sex Trafficking, but better policing and regulations should strangle it. By keeping it in the dark all you are doing is allowing the current violence against sex workers and victims of trafficking to continue.

Imagine making it a law that you could only pay for sex, if you saw the workers license and signed a document to prove consensual sex. That not seeing either made you just as culpable as sex traffickers. Imagine a database with flags against people who have a history of violent crime that could warn sex workers in advance. Strict regulation and policing is the best way to solve the massive problem of Sex Trafficking and violence against Sex Workers.

I don't think there is a moral argument that can ultimately work against this.

Not sure I understand this. Isn't prostitution, in all its forms illegal in many states? While I do sympathise with the added dangers and the obvious reasons why women do This, it's a bit silly to expect protections in the law for something you aren't supposed to be doing anyway.


If I'm wrong with this, I apologise. I just think thats were the law stands on prostitution.

Carthago Delenda Est said:

This law likely also saves girls from being kidnapped, dosed with heroine, and raped for years before eventually being murdered. Because when it's harder to sell your product (trafficked girls and boys), you do sell less of it and therefore need less of it. So mission accomplished. It's sad that prostitutes have been harmed by it (truly, it is) but they chose their profession and they know the risks - the girls and boys getting trafficked did not.

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Is it? We have actual evidence of sex workers being put in demonstrably more dangerous positions after the passage of the bill and zero evidence or indication of it doing anything to curb real sex trafficking. This bill doesn't do anything real for victims of sex trafficking it just makes people feel good about themselves.

Brikky Freeman said:

Not sure I understand this. Isn't prostitution, in all its forms illegal in many states? While I do sympathise with the added dangers and the obvious reasons why women do This, it's a bit silly to expect protections in the law for something you aren't supposed to be doing anyway.


If I'm wrong with this, I apologise. I just think thats were the law stands on prostitution.

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I know what you're saying, but the thing is that we pass laws that are counter productive all the time. Prostitution shouldn't be illegal, but it is illegal because a lot of the culture is embezzled in predatory cultural and religious sexual oppression. Many people recognize that prostitution being illegal is not stopping anyone. It just puts everyone in harms way.
Sometimes laws that are intended to stop people from doing something have no effect. And that's why one should stop and ask, if the law then serves a purpose.

Border said:

This will be a short time of upheaval, I think. Sites for prostitution will simply move offshore and the status quo will be restored. Eros is still in operation, strangely enough....what makes them think they are immune?

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Eros has already been raided by the government before, and it's highly likely that they made some concessions in able to still be operating that are part of the reason they're still operating now.

Carthago Delenda Est said:

This law likely also saves girls from being kidnapped, dosed with heroine, and raped for years before eventually being murdered. Because when it's harder to sell your product (trafficked girls and boys), you do sell less of it and therefore need less of it. So mission accomplished. It's sad that prostitutes have been harmed by it (truly, it is) but they chose their profession and they know the risks - the girls and boys getting trafficked did not.

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This does jackshit to prevent traffic. Actually, you'll find that it's going to increase it.

The bill was intended to fight sex trafficking

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was it?

Brikky Freeman said:

Not sure I understand this. Isn't prostitution, in all its forms illegal in many states? While I do sympathise with the added dangers and the obvious reasons why women do This, it's a bit silly to expect protections in the law for something you aren't supposed to be doing anyway.


If I'm wrong with this, I apologise. I just think thats were the law stands on prostitution.

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Yes, prostitution is illegal, but that's actually the problem. Laws exist, but by no means are laws always correct, the be-all-end-all, or infallible. And certainly not simply for the fact that it is law. That is what's happening here: no matter where you go on this planet, prostitution will exist because it's a legitimate form of business. As much as conservatives want you to believe, having sex is not something that kills people or topples societies, so it's not illegal for being dangerous like selling hardcore drugs or guns or something. What's really silly is that the American government wants to ban prostitution because penises and vaginas are naughty, rather than being rational and realizing that there's actual consequences to this kind of law existing.

Who knew pushing something further underground makes it more difficult to combat and more dangerous? If only we had historical evidence/examples of such things!

Hopefully someone will study the before and after effects of this bill, because I think it could do a lot more harm than good. Economist found that when Craigslist opened up an erotic services section for a city, female homicide rates went down an average of 17%. Not the homicide rate for sex workers, the total female homicide rate.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2018/01/craigslist_redu.html

Border said:

This will be a short time of upheaval, I think. Sites for prostitution will simply move offshore and the status quo will be restored. Eros is still in operation, strangely enough....what makes them think they are immune?

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Kirblar said:

This was pretty much what happened with the Online Poker ban.

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Yeah. I'd guess this is what will happen eventually.

If the new US law is too broad that it's effecting, although illegal, but otherwise consensual adult prostitution websites. Wont those sort of websites just choose to be hosted outside of the US?

Is there any argument why something like this wont happen?

The type of sex-trafficking people here are claiming this bill helps does not use the type of network that this bill specifically targets.

This bill did nothing but kill sites like backpage, the erotic review, craigslist, and others that were primarily used by individual sex workers. Brothels, harems, and the 'pimp structure' did use them from time to time, but relied more on local networks rather than sites with review, discussion, and verification systems.

So, yeah, anyone praising this bill for doing any good should know that it's like praising Iowa's 'heartbeat' bill for stopping abortions in the state. The heartbeat bill only stopped SAFE abortions, and this bill only hinders SAFE sex work. Legislation of morality like this causes ZERO drop in the rate of things like abortions and prostitution, they only prevent it from being safe.

Kimura said:

I know what you're saying, but the thing is that we pass laws that are counter productive all the time. Prostitution shouldn't be illegal, but it is illegal because a lot of the culture is embezzled in predatory cultural and religious sexual oppression. Many people recognize that prostitution being illegal is not stopping anyone. It just puts everyone in harms way.
Sometimes laws that are intended to stop people from doing something have no effect. And that's why one should stop and ask, if the law then serves a purpose.

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Marvelous said:

Yes, prostitution is illegal, but that's actually the problem. Laws exist, but by no means are laws always correct, the be-all-end-all, or infallible. And certainly not simply for the fact that it is law. That is what's happening here: no matter where you go on this planet, prostitution will exist because it's a legitimate form of business. As much as conservatives want you to believe, having sex is not something that kills people or topples societies, so it's not illegal for being dangerous like selling hardcore drugs or guns or something. What's really silly is that the American government wants to ban prostitution because penises and vaginas are naughty, rather than being rational and realizing that there's actual consequences to this kind of law existing.

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Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartly agree. But, the law as it stands is the law. So really fighting to roll back this legistlation is kinda putting the cart before the horse. Backpage and it's like were always operating in a legal grey area so while it is now harder for sex workers, it's an avenue they shouldn't of had in the first place.

The fight is to get prostitution legalised, a massive undertaking yes, but the only way to prevent legislation like this existing.

Brikky Freeman said:

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartly agree. But, the law as it stands is the law. So really fighting to roll back this legistlation is kinda putting the cart before the horse. Backpage and it's like were always operating in a legal grey area so while it is now harder for sex workers, it's an avenue they shouldn't of had in the first place.

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Doesn't matter, a law that makes lives worse deserves to be broken and flaunted.

Akira86 said:

how? *those* people of any and all of them are likely to be the most driven, most resourceful, and most invested perpetrators in sex trafficking, and they are not likely to be stopped by some inconveniences like missing websites and banned accounts.

This law stops the people that were not so worried about being visible, but wanted to exist in a legal gray area. The people doing straight up professional kidnapping to sex slavery were not relying on free personal ads and free websites to make their business.

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Actually, they were.

KarneeKarnay said:

I've still yet to hear a convincing argument for why Sex Work shouldn't be legalised. The only argument I've seen that intentionally has a good point, is the rise of Sex Trafficking in nations that legalised. However the argument against this is pros vs cons. You might see a rise in Sex Trafficking, but better policing and regulations should strangle it. By keeping it in the dark all you are doing is allowing the current violence against sex workers and victims of trafficking to continue.

Imagine making it a law that you could only pay for sex, if you saw the workers license and signed a document to prove consensual sex. That not seeing either made you just as culpable as sex traffickers. Imagine a database with flags against people who have a history of violent crime that could warn sex workers in advance. Strict regulation and policing is the best way to solve the massive problem of Sex Trafficking and violence against Sex Workers.

I don't think there is a moral argument that can ultimately work against this.

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And even that is a misconception. It's actually a "rise in REPORTS OF sex trafficking," likely because sex workers are no longer afraid of approaching the police to report traffickers.

It's universally a good thing.

Probably should have its own thread, but the Electronic Frontier Foundation has launched a lawsuit with the aim of establishing an injunction against getting FOSTA/SESTA enforced and eventually declaring it unconstitutional, using the invalidation of the Communications Decency Act and the Child Online Protection Act as precedent that the law is too poorly written and written in such a way that is certainly unconstitutional.

Hopefully the injunction comes soon, delaying this terrible, terrible law, and hopefully it will get killed off entirely by the time it goes through the whole litigation process.

Is prostitution illegal in all of the USA?

what's funny is that many of the congressmen who voted for this bill are probably customers of the industry

Random Painted Highway said:

I shut down a spa recently that advertised "new girls" online. Said "girls" spoke virtually no English beyond what was necessary to provide "services". They lived in squalor in the back room of the unit, beds, a small kitchenette. Cameras everywhere to keep an eye on them. Deadbolts on interior doors. Apparently one had been here a week, the other a month. Chinese nationals.

While the website hosting the adverts was not prosecuted in my case, i view the option to do so as an important tool in driving up the cost of business for these criminals. It is true that these spas existed before the internet, but the internet websites are providing a platform for these illicit businesses to advertise more broadly thus generating a reach of business beyond the traditional location.

I am more concerned with the welfare of these people being trafficked than those who are voluntarily operating in an illegal industry. Those people can choose a different lifestyle that doesn't include unlawful activities, the women and children who are being trafficked cannot.

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If only there were a way to combat sex trafficking that didn't totally alienate and endanger sex workers. If only we could spend literally any time thinking this through.

Maybe like decriminalization?

And as for the "Those people can choose a different lifestyle that doesn't include unlawful activities" argument, that's some weak stuff dude. People are allowed to do sex work if they want to. The law is wrong here, not them.

Taki said:

Is prostitution illegal in all of the USA?

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Outside of some specific parts of Nevada, yes

DigitalOp said:

I've read alot about how this move endangered alot of workers and makes the trade even more dangerous.

I've even seen Law Enforcement was upset because it ruined their overwatch of the activity in the area and lost tabs on problematic areas.

Seems like a big win for "moral christian values" but turned out to be an empty action that made everything worse.

Go figure

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Right, this isnt about keeping sex workers safe. Its about religion being against sex work in general. So Im sure they don't care about the side effects.