The New Yorker published a good summary of the incel community

Taki · May 27, 2018

I know there was some confusion about what incels are and their operating philosophies. But it's gone pretty big in the news circuit recently. Here's a good summary of incels:

The Rage of the Incels:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-rage-of-the-incels?mbid=social_twitter

Supplementary article detailing the link between men right's activists and white supremacy:
https://www.thecut.com/2017/08/mens-rights-activism-is-the-gateway-drug-for-the-alt-right.html

I'm curious how big this incel community actually is, including all its splinter groups online. How many incels do I interact with on a daily basis - maybe I know some, but I'm not privy to their online activity. It's scary.

Deleted member 15428 · May 27, 2018

This portrait of incels made me cringe so hard

EdibleKnife · May 27, 2018

That tagline in the New Yorker article is exactly how I feel. People are falling for the trap that if these guys finally get sex/a girlfriend they'll be fixed when that isn't the issue. That's simply an "sympathetic" excuse for an ideology that seeks dominance and violence against women.

PhazonBlonde · May 27, 2018

"It is male power, not female power, that has chained all of human society to the idea that women are decorative sexual objects, and that male worth is measured by how good-looking a woman they acquire."

It's pretty tragic that these guys don't see how bad they need feminism, and how all of their pain comes from the same toxic masculinity that they themselves perpetuate.

Birdie · May 27, 2018

EdibleKnife said:
That tagline in the New Yorker article is exactly how I feel. People are falling for the trap that if these guys finally get sex/a girlfriend they'll be fixed when that isn't the issue. That's simply an "sympathetic" excuse for an ideology that seeks dominance and violence against women.

Yeah, just like there are plenty of dudes out there with girlfriends who hold similar views---I honestly think a large majority of incels don't even want to really find someone as that'll take away their "opression" status.

Cryptosporidium · May 27, 2018

Its always about power.

Who gets what, when, and how, is the foundation of politics.

Without proper organization, shit like this incel shit spews out from the trash of society

Sblargh · May 27, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
"It is male power, not female power, that has chained all of human society to the idea that women are decorative sexual objects, and that male worth is measured by how good-looking a woman they acquire."

It's pretty tragic that these guys don't see how bad they need feminism, and how all of their pain comes from the same toxic masculinity that they themselves perpetuate.

This is what gets me. They complain about" Chad" is basically they saying the culture of toxic masculinity has fucked them.
But they are in this weird limbo of hating both society and themselves to the point where the problem is that shit isn't unfair enough.
It needs to be even more unfair so they get their share.

Arkestry · May 27, 2018

Birdie said:
Yeah, just like there are plenty of dudes out there with girlfriends who hold similar views---I honestly think a large majority of incels don't even want to really find someone as that'll take away their "opression" status.

I think it's more bitter and tragic than that. I think even if they do get a girlfriend that they would have considered worthwhile previously, they'll inevitably sour the relationship because as soon as he sees her as a person with flaws and depth, she no longer becomes the object he sought to attain. And so the cycle continues. As always, they're attempting to salve a symptom, rather than treat the cause. They're broken boys, and they're just making themselves sicker.

Kyougar · May 27, 2018

You don't need to be an Incel to be a misogynist asshole.
You are also not automatically a misogynist asshole just because you have the same background/happenstance as an Incel.

Already there was a bad stigma for guys who didn't get/doesn't have a significant other and now they are more and more thrown into the same hole that is Incel "culture".
"something must be wrong with you if you can't "score" a girlfriend, you must change your whole personality and conform to societies will" is just objectifying women as an appendix of a man.

Just... leave guys alone that have no SO and don't try to get in a relationship on their own. The shy guy who gets pressured by his friends or family to try to get a date/girlfriend may be happy where he is, right now.
I know that it is a deep societal problem that starts in the teen years. Education of the likes of "It is okay to not get into a relationship" should be part of sex education. Also, "relationship-advice / do's and dont's" should also be part of sex education.

A woman is NOT an object or a trophy you unlock. It should not be an Achievement that you "score". There is nothing wrong with a human being just because he has not "achieved" a girlfriend.
A loner is not an Incel because he has no girlfriend. A loner asshole mysoginist is an Incel because he is an asshole mysoginist.

Directed by Fulci · May 27, 2018

Jia Tolentino is always great.

Dook's Revenge · May 27, 2018

Birdseye said:
This portrait of incels made me cringe so hard

This is great.

I would watch a weekly show about these guys.

Pagusas · May 27, 2018

These people disgust me beyond any words I can even come up with. Disgusting human beings.

LProtagonist · May 27, 2018

Birdseye said:
This portrait of incels made me cringe so hard

This got super weird for me, because they are at an aquarium that is a town over from me at the end.

Not · May 27, 2018

A couple weeks old, guess I missed it.

Napoleonthechimp · May 27, 2018

I'll be honest being without a partner or not actively dating is perfectly fine if you're not that interested in relationships, but... if you get to a certain age (dependent on the individual) then the lack of success in that area, no matter if it is self-imposed, becomes a millstone around a person's neck when you realise that you'd like to actually spend your life with someone.

So these incel weirdos can claim they're happy being the way they are but their resentfulness and hatred tells me something else. I bet they feel trapped. Rather than take responsibility and do something about it they viciously attack others like the man-babies they are.

Hagi · May 27, 2018

Where did all this incel shit even come from? I feel like I've missed a step because I went from never having heard of it before this month to seeing it talked about constantly.

Veggen · May 27, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
"It is male power, not female power, that has chained all of human society to the idea that women are decorative sexual objects, and that male worth is measured by how good-looking a woman they acquire."

It's pretty tragic that these guys don't see how bad they need feminism, and how all of their pain comes from the same toxic masculinity that they themselves perpetuate.

These are people desperate in need of a narrative that both offers a justification for their lifestyle and a solution to escape it. It bred yesteryears seduction community (PUA) and is now fueling communities like incels and personalities like Jordan Peterson. Focused on losers in society, it comes from a subset of toxic masculinity called neomasculinity. Deeply drenched in "biological truths", like debunked concepts as alfa/beta males, there are fundamental issues that makes it practically impossible for them to consider something like feminism. History and rhetoric is useless when the other party offer a solution in form of a colored pill.

Loxley · May 27, 2018

Hagi said:
Where did all this incel shit even come from? I feel like I've missed a step because I went from never having heard of it before this month to seeing it talked about constantly.

The Sante Fe shooting brought the Incel community to the forefront of the news cycle because the shooter killed a girl who rejected him. As such Incels have embraced him as some sort of hero or would-be martyr.

SRG01 · May 27, 2018

Veggen said:
These are people desperate in need of a narrative that both offers a justification for their lifestyle and a solution to escape it. It bred yesteryears seduction community (PUA) and is now fueling communities like incels and personalities like Jordan Peterson. Focused on losers in society, it comes from a subset of toxic masculinity called neomasculinity. Deeply drenched in "biological truths", like debunked concepts as alfa/beta males, there are fundamental issues that makes it practically impossible for them to consider something like feminism. History and rhetoric is useless when the other party offer a solution in form of a colored pill.

The sad part is that delusions can spread like wildfire, as long as it's wrapped in something somewhat resembling a truth about the world.

entremet · May 27, 2018

Loxley said:
The Sante Fe shooting brought the Incel community to the forefront of the news cycle because the shooter killed a girl who rejected him. As such Incels have embraced him as some sort of hero/martyr.

Same with Eliot Roger too. The Toronto killer actually posted about Eliot Rodger being a "hero". Sick sick community.

Famassu · May 27, 2018

Kyougar said:
You don't need to be an Incel to be a misogynist asshole.
You are also not automatically a misogynist asshole just because you have the same background/happenstance as an Incel.

Already there was a bad stigma for guys who didn't get/doesn't have a significant other and now they are more and more thrown into the same hole that is Incel "culture".
"something must be wrong with you if you can't "score" a girlfriend, you must change your whole personality and conform to societies will" is just objectifying women as an appendix of a man.

Just... leave guys alone that have no SO and don't try to get in a relationship on their own. The shy guy who gets pressured by his friends or family to try to get a date/girlfriend may be happy where he is, right now.
I know that it is a deep societal problem that starts in the teen years. Education of the likes of "It is okay to not get into a relationship" should be part of sex education. Also, "relationship-advice / do's and dont's" should also be part of sex education.

A woman is NOT an object or a trophy you unlock. It should not be an Achievement that you "score". There is nothing wrong with a human being just because he has not "achieved" a girlfriend.
A loner is not an Incel because he has no girlfriend. A loner asshole mysoginist is an Incel because he is an asshole mysoginist.

Nowhere does anyone say anything like this. No one is saying every man who is single is an incel type person or grouping all single men together with these kinds of incel types.

Seesaw15 · May 27, 2018

Birdseye said:
This portrait of incels made me cringe so hard

No body shaming but Kyle ain't even that hot.

Deleted member 20603 · May 27, 2018

Kyougar said:
You don't need to be an Incel to be a misogynist asshole.
You are also not automatically a misogynist asshole just because you have the same background/happenstance as an Incel.

Already there was a bad stigma for guys who didn't get/doesn't have a significant other and now they are more and more thrown into the same hole that is Incel "culture".
"something must be wrong with you if you can't "score" a girlfriend, you must change your whole personality and conform to societies will" is just objectifying women as an appendix of a man.

Just... leave guys alone that have no SO and don't try to get in a relationship on their own. The shy guy who gets pressured by his friends or family to try to get a date/girlfriend may be happy where he is, right now.
I know that it is a deep societal problem that starts in the teen years. Education of the likes of "It is okay to not get into a relationship" should be part of sex education. Also, "relationship-advice / do's and dont's" should also be part of sex education.

A woman is NOT an object or a trophy you unlock. It should not be an Achievement that you "score". There is nothing wrong with a human being just because he has not "achieved" a girlfriend.
A loner is not an Incel because he has no girlfriend. A loner asshole mysoginist is an Incel because he is an asshole mysoginist.

Wonderful post. Everything is correct.

night814 · May 27, 2018

Sblargh said:
This is what gets me. They complain about" Chad" is basically they saying the culture of toxic masculinity has fucked them.
But they are in this weird limbo of hating both society and themselves to the point where the problem is that shit isn't unfair enough.
It needs to be even more unfair so they get their share.

They only want their crazy version of "fair"; women who have no free will and are more objects then a person. They are so insecure that the slightist bit dissent from a lady is perceived as a power struggle, and they need the power all or nothing.

The really fascinating part is their idea of "involuntary", they say they don't want to be celebate but the idea of being with a women is something they seemingly stop pursuing, thus becoming voluntary. If they were "attempting non-celebacy", like your average Joe who just wants to be loved by a mutual partner it would be so much easier for them. They come up with this crazy anti-woman shit though, they deserve their celebacy until they realized their fucked up world views.

HardTimesFamilyPride · May 27, 2018

I discovered this term like six or seven years ago and kinda identified with the general concept, I guess? Because I am horrible at social interactions and was frustrated at my lack of success with the ladies. I never dug into it, though; basically just titled a poem I'd already written "InCel" and moved on.

Fucking crazy to see that it's come up amidst all the shit going on and see that it's actually this.

HP_Wuvcraft · May 27, 2018

Hagi said:
Where did all this incel shit even come from? I feel like I've missed a step because I went from never having heard of it before this month to seeing it talked about constantly.

It's just an evolution of MRA culture.

Deleted member 4367 · May 27, 2018

HP_Wuvcraft said:
It's just an evolution of MRA culture.

And GamerGate.

That is starting to really feel like a historical event. It feels like an early indication of what was to come.

kittens · May 27, 2018

How many ways will men invent to terrorize the world? Good lord. We really need to prioritize healing more. We are so deeply hurt.

HP_Wuvcraft · May 27, 2018

Yaboosh said:
And GamerGate.

That is starting to really feel like a historical event. It feels like an early indication of what was to come.

I dislike giving gamergate any more credit beyond "MRAs targeted video games". Even its name spawned out of one of their own naming it.

ISOM · May 27, 2018

Kyougar said:
You don't need to be an Incel to be a misogynist asshole.
You are also not automatically a misogynist asshole just because you have the same background/happenstance as an Incel.

Already there was a bad stigma for guys who didn't get/doesn't have a significant other and now they are more and more thrown into the same hole that is Incel "culture".
"something must be wrong with you if you can't "score" a girlfriend, you must change your whole personality and conform to societies will" is just objectifying women as an appendix of a man.

Just... leave guys alone that have no SO and don't try to get in a relationship on their own. The shy guy who gets pressured by his friends or family to try to get a date/girlfriend may be happy where he is, right now.
I know that it is a deep societal problem that starts in the teen years. Education of the likes of "It is okay to not get into a relationship" should be part of sex education. Also, "relationship-advice / do's and dont's" should also be part of sex education.

A woman is NOT an object or a trophy you unlock. It should not be an Achievement that you "score". There is nothing wrong with a human being just because he has not "achieved" a girlfriend.
A loner is not an Incel because he has no girlfriend. A loner asshole mysoginist is an Incel because he is an asshole mysoginist.

Well said.

samoyed · May 27, 2018

I would trace the current Incel community back to MRA/PUA boards on Reddit and elsewhere. At the time, maybe 5 years ago, the vogue term for MRA/PUAs was the "Red Pills", misogynists who spent their time trying to one up each other on how callous they can treat women they date. At some point, there was a spinoff called "Black Pill". You can read the Quora summary here, it gets the general sense right according to my memory: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-Black-Pill

While a Red Piller was still goal oriented, focused on the seduction of women, a Black Pill accepted that Red Pilling/PUA/MRA were bullshit and that they're all going to die alone because they lack whatever quality it is to get women to like them (mostly looks, status, wealth or a combination of these). At some point this mutated into the Incel movement.

Another parallel chronology is this one: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/05/08/intel-involuntary-celibate-movement-218324

There used to be a dating-help mailing list from 1999 where the term "InvCel" was coined. Eventually this mutated into the "incel" we hear about today.

Nick Nehidnyk · May 27, 2018

Birdseye said:
This portrait of incels made me cringe so hard

poor kyle the sound guy

"I don't have a job. I'm ugly. So my value is zero."
-- Advanced, incel

EDIT:
"For a supposed support forum, it sometimes has the opposite effect"
-- Michael, GUY WHO OWNS THE FUCKING WEBSITE

gutter_trash · May 27, 2018

Kyougar said:
You don't need to be an Incel to be a misogynist asshole.
You are also not automatically a misogynist asshole just because you have the same background/happenstance as an Incel.

Already there was a bad stigma for guys who didn't get/doesn't have a significant other and now they are more and more thrown into the same hole that is Incel "culture".
"something must be wrong with you if you can't "score" a girlfriend, you must change your whole personality and conform to societies will" is just objectifying women as an appendix of a man.

Just... leave guys alone that have no SO and don't try to get in a relationship on their own. The shy guy who gets pressured by his friends or family to try to get a date/girlfriend may be happy where he is, right now.
I know that it is a deep societal problem that starts in the teen years. Education of the likes of "It is okay to not get into a relationship" should be part of sex education. Also, "relationship-advice / do's and dont's" should also be part of sex education.

A woman is NOT an object or a trophy you unlock. It should not be an Achievement that you "score". There is nothing wrong with a human being just because he has not "achieved" a girlfriend.
A loner is not an Incel because he has no girlfriend. A loner asshole mysoginist is an Incel because he is an asshole mysoginist.

word up!

Thorn · May 27, 2018

Its sad because a lot of these people I feel just needed help and received the worst toxic kind of help that shaped them into incels.

When Society tells you that your worth of a man is how much sex you can score, its gonna cause damage.

And yes, that is absolutely also a reason for Feminism, but sadly people don't want to hear that and turn it into "See its always about the women who are victims!"

Even the phrase "Toxic Masculinity" gets taken as "Masculinity is bad" and not "Macheesmo Culture" as it should be described as.

loquaciousJenny · May 28, 2018

Birdseye said:
This portrait of incels made me cringe so hard

God Fuck PUA and everyone who defended that shit on gaf and everyone who dares do it here

HP_Wuvcraft · May 28, 2018

Thorn said:
When Society tells you that your worth of a man is how much sex you can score, its gonna cause damage.

And yes, that is absolutely also a reason for Feminism, but sadly people don't want to hear that and turn it into "See its always about the women who are victims!"

Even the phrase "Toxic Masculinity" gets taken as "Masculinity is bad" and not "Macheesmo Culture" as it should be described as.

I was watching a stream last night on Twitch where the streamer was talking - in vast and descriptive detail - about her own sexual assault, and literally two of the first responses were:

"Are you a feminist?"

"I think you liked it or you would have told the police."

She actually took the time to respond to both of them (again, in great detail), and they responded, very aggressively, with "why hasn't this happened to me?".

Incels are the byproduct of a society that says our boys need to be X and that gender assault is a crime but only in words.

Rayne · May 28, 2018

HP_Wuvcraft said:
I was watching a stream last night on Twitch where the streamer was talking - in vast and descriptive detail - about her own sexual assault, and literally two of the first responses were:

"Are you a feminist?"

"I think you liked it or you would have told the police."

She actually took the time to respond to both of them (again, in great detail), and they responded, very aggressively, with "why hasn't this happened to me?".

Incels are the byproduct of a society that says our boys need to be X and that gender assault is a crime but only in words.

You got a link to this? I find myself bizarrely curious.

Kernel · May 28, 2018

It's not about sex, love or relationships it's about power.

These losers feel powerless, that TISM song is probably their anthem.

Some of these sick fucks descend to a new level called "pedocels" which is exactly what it sounds like.

thebigcountry · May 28, 2018

Directed by Fulci said:
Jia Tolentino is always great.

One of America's great working writers. I really enjoyed her profile about the teens and Juuls/vaping.

EdibleKnife · May 28, 2018

Kernel said:
Some of these sick fucks descend to a new level called "pedocels" which is exactly what it sounds like.

I'm glad you brought that next level sick shit up. r/IncelTears in fact has a recent screenshot of a pedocel exchange form the forum Incelocalypse (warning: This links to a reddit page with an image of a vile exchange of pedophilic rape fantasies). Exchanges like this are also not uncommon. Children are not safe from incel fantasies about rape and violence towards women no matter the age.

Phoenix RISING · May 28, 2018

Birdseye said:
This portrait of incels made me cringe so hard

"Forum Name: Urban White Trash, PUA-in-Training"

Wut in tarnation is this video

EdibleKnife · May 28, 2018

Phoenix RISING said:
Wut in tarnation is this video

A window into a life I'm glad I dodged.

Directed by Fulci · May 28, 2018

thebigcountry said:
One of America's great working writers. I really enjoyed her profile about the teens and Juuls/vaping.

Yeah, that's a great piece! And, as far as I know, that's the first truly long form work she's done for the New Yorker. I hope there's more!

KingOfDyslexics · May 28, 2018

Would these people still be incels if prostitution was available to them like in other countries? I think the media paints too much of an image that women are supposed to marry and stay faithful. When you have sex regularly you start to understand feminism and how it makes sense. When I was a virgin I had no idea women wanted sex and how easy it is to just ask for it when you have friends.

EdibleKnife · May 28, 2018

KingOfDyslexics said:
Would these people still be incels if prostitution was available to them like in other countries? I think the media paints too much of an image that women are supposed to marry and stay faithful. When you have sex regularly you start to understand feminism and how it makes sense. When I was a virgin I had no idea women wanted sex and how easy it is to just ask for it when you have friends.

This is addressed in the article:

If what incels wanted was sex, they might, for instance, value sex workers and wish to legalize sex work. But incels, being violent misogynists, often express extreme disgust at the idea of "whores." Incels tend to direct hatred at things they think they desire; they are obsessed with female beauty but despise makeup as a form of fraud. Incel culture advises men to "looksmaxx" or "statusmaxx"—to improve their appearance, to make more money—in a way that presumes that women are not potential partners or worthy objects of possible affection but inconveniently sentient bodies that must be claimed through cold strategy. (They assume that men who treat women more respectfully are "white-knighting," putting on a mockable façade of chivalry.) When these tactics fail, as they are bound to do, the rage intensifies. Incels dream of beheading the sluts who wear short shorts but don't want to be groped by strangers; they draw up elaborate scenarios in which women are auctioned off at age eighteen to the highest bidder; they call Elliot Rodger their Lord and Savior and feminists the female K.K.K. "Women are the ultimate cause of our suffering," one poster on incels.me wrote recently. "They are the ones who have UNJUSTLY made our lives a living hell… We need to focus more on our hatred of women. Hatred is power."

They don't just want sex. They want sex with untouched virgins because, in their eyes, women who've had boyfriends/sex before meeting them are considered used up sluts.

KingOfDyslexics · May 28, 2018

EdibleKnife said:
They don't just want sex. They want sex with untouched virgins because, in their eyes, women who've had boyfriends/sex before meeting them are considered used up sluts.

Wouldnt a simple explanation from their mothers help them out? Yes women are sluts and so are men. Its human.

Monogatari · May 28, 2018

Kyougar said:
You don't need to be an Incel to be a misogynist asshole.
You are also not automatically a misogynist asshole just because you have the same background/happenstance as an Incel.

Already there was a bad stigma for guys who didn't get/doesn't have a significant other and now they are more and more thrown into the same hole that is Incel "culture".
"something must be wrong with you if you can't "score" a girlfriend, you must change your whole personality and conform to societies will" is just objectifying women as an appendix of a man.

Just... leave guys alone that have no SO and don't try to get in a relationship on their own. The shy guy who gets pressured by his friends or family to try to get a date/girlfriend may be happy where he is, right now.
I know that it is a deep societal problem that starts in the teen years. Education of the likes of "It is okay to not get into a relationship" should be part of sex education. Also, "relationship-advice / do's and dont's" should also be part of sex education.

A woman is NOT an object or a trophy you unlock. It should not be an Achievement that you "score". There is nothing wrong with a human being just because he has not "achieved" a girlfriend.
A loner is not an Incel because he has no girlfriend. A loner asshole mysoginist is an Incel because he is an asshole mysoginist.

This is the best comment on these kind of subjects I've ever read.

EdibleKnife · May 28, 2018

KingOfDyslexics said:
Wouldnt a simple explanation from their mothers help them out? Yes women are sluts and so are men. Its human.

You're thinking with logic, which is absent from the incel ideology. Some of them love and respect their mothers as the one of the few "good" women in the world. Some hate their mothers for burdening them with weak genes. Some think mothers & sisters should have sex with their sons/brothers after puberty so they don't grow up virgins.

Simple explanations from their mothers wouldn't help out because many of them have already heard the same rhetoric even from the mouths of the women in their lives yet still believe in a conspiracy by women and successful men built to deny them happiness. It is human to have a lot of sex, and to be lonely, and to sometimes spend a lot of time as a virgin. But incels reject all that in order to blame others for their own inadequacies.

Sander VF · May 28, 2018

EdibleKnife said:
Some think mothers & sisters should have sex with their sons/brothers after puberty so they don't grow up virgins.

What the actual fuck?

astroturfing · May 28, 2018

why do i live in a world and at a time when we have to learn about fucking incels?

could we pls fast-forward a few decades so these absolute goddamn losers have faded out already jeez

The New Yorker published a good summary of the incel community

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