Unwinnable: Cuphead and the Racist Spectre of Fleischer Animation

Royalan · Nov 12, 2017

Valahart said:
Moderation, there is something really fucked up on banning black people on a discussion about racism. They should be allowed to get a bit triggered by the subject. It's very delicate topic.

As a black moderator, I understand how easy it is to get angered on this topic. Yet and still, we have a TOS, and personal insults will never be tolerated.

Everyone is encouraged to use the Report button and even PM a mod if they feel someone is stepping out-of-bounds.

Inugami · Nov 12, 2017

I had a pretty big post written up, but it got deleted during the lock. To sum it up, my thoughts on this topic have already changed greatly just from when I first read this topic (starting with the title). I imagine I'm not the only person. These discussions are super important, so let's try our best to keep the thread open and on top of the forum for more views.

King Tubby · Nov 12, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
I think we'd sadly end up with the same situation as with RE5 in that case.

There's a spectrum. RE5 had you as a white savior killing scores of mindless, black "savages" in Africa. There's a wide middle ground to work in.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 12, 2017

King Tubby said:
There's a spectrum. RE5 had you as a white savior killing scores of mindless, black "savages" in Africa. There's a wide middle ground to work in.

Is there? I think if people are genuinely as upset as they are about there not being a disclaimer, what do you think would happen if the single black character in the game was a boss that had to be defeated.

Crash331 · Nov 12, 2017

I don't see it as that big of a deal, in my opinion. Sure, terrible things were done in the past regarding this style (the same can be said for Looney Tunes and even Disney. I have some Disney DVDs that were sold in the last 10 years that have some pretty racist Japanese depictions), but unlike statues that are placed in very public spaces, you can view things like this in the privacy of your own home and do things like teach your kids the context and circumstances on your own terms.

Deleted member 5167 · Nov 12, 2017

MonsterMech said:
Racism doesn't work like that. Something does not have to be overtly racist in order to perpetuate racism.

I know you cannot respond to this, and I apologise for quoting you as a result, but perhaps someone who agrees with you will respond on your behalf.

What is cuphead doing to "perpetuate racism"?
It is using an art style that was popular in the 1930s, but it is not endorsing 1930s social attitudes, nor is it using racist caricatures and attempting to defend that on the grounds of "authenticity" or similar.
Cubism, Art Deco, Futurism - these are all art styles that were popularised in the 1930s, and have been used by subsequent artists including in videogames.

Why is it a modern artists duty to apologise for the historical beliefs or actions of others? This isn't a Hugo Boss situation.

King Tubby said:
The artist in this case is not just using the techniques, they are making explicit references to that history throughout the work. The game Cuphead itself is presented as a work from that era. I would refer to my earlier post so as not to repeat myself too much.

But it isn't presenting itself as a work from that era. It's not even in a medium that existed in that era.

Sakujou · Nov 12, 2017

i think this is very far fetched to call out cuphead a racist game. yes, back then the cartoons had a racist undertone because it was normal to be pejorative towards blacks, jews whatever.

iam glad thad MDHR killed anything out of that racist shit from those cartoons and preserved this awesome artstyle for their game, and it is important to know that MDHR's game is a rethought work from that era, but calling out that game racist is a bad namecalling.

its the same as with tom and jerry(i think thats from the 50s?) where the housemaid is a black woman. i think you were able to see her here and there, but as a kid i never thought of this "oh white people are having a cat, a mouse and a black woman who is unable to kill the mouse in the house"

of course now as an adult i do care, but as a kid, you are out there for fun. and tom and jerry was intentionally fun, nothing of preaching racism or how stupid cats,dogs, mice or black house maids were.

King Tubby · Nov 12, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Is there? I think if people are genuinely as upset as they are about there not being a disclaimer, what do you think would happen if the single black character in the game was a boss that had to be defeated.

Like I said, I think it would be fine. Basically every character in the game is a boss to defeat. It would be on an equal footing with them.

Dr Wily said:
But it isn't presenting itself as a work from that era. It's not even in a medium that existed in that era.

Starlatine · Nov 12, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
Is there? I think if people are genuinely as upset as they are about there not being a disclaimer, what do you think would happen if the single black character in the game was a boss that had to be defeated.

I'm not genuinely upset. I just think a disclaimer would be a quick, painless and good compromise to the points raised by the author. He might be the first to speak about it but certainly was not the first to feel it. Cuphead is a wonderful game that deserves to be played by everyone and since i doubt it was the intention of the creators to perpetuate such discomfort, a quick 5 sec disclaimer the first time you fire it up do no harm to it

eyeball_kid · Nov 12, 2017

Jigu said:
Not that this is an excuse for anything, but I think this is just an unfortunate coincidence:

Lots of Cuphead's bosses are named in alliteration (Cagney Carnation, Sally Stageplay, Goopy le Grande)

"Werman" could be wordplay on "vermin" - after all, the boss IS a rat

(Also, why would they portray a German military satirical rat with a Jewish name?)

My last sentence pretty much explained why we can't just hand wave away these things because they are coincidences: The developers' own comments just make them sound oblivious to all the imagery they're drawing from, but it comes off a bit willfully ignorant, or at the least lazy because they didn't do research on how this iconography might play to other groups who are more aware of the history.

This isn't just about the intent of the developers. I mean, yeah let's all hope these guys weren't putting subtle racist messages in their game, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that. What this is about, and what the article was trying to express, is that game developers have the same responsibility as filmmakers to do research about the art and the culture that they are putting into their game. That's important because imagery that you just think looks cool can have a completely different meaning to someone who is aware. On the rat character for instance, I'm not a holocaust expert or even Jewish, but rats have had a long history of being used to describe Jews and other minority groups that are seen as dirty and unwanted. The Nazis were obsessed with this association and in releasing propaganda movies and posters to affirm it, and even the gas used to kill Jews in concentration camps was a pesticide used to kill rats. So a German cartoon rat already kind of evokes this association. But then when the rat is given a Jewish name, well. It's hard not to make that connection, regardless of the fact that it is dressed as a soldier. That pea soup of character attributes still evokes something vile from our past. And this imagery is still powerful. Even as recently as 2015, The Daily Mail had a cartoon about immigrants that had rats scurrying and it caused a big uproar. It doesn't matter as much whether the newspaper intended to evoke antisemitic imagery, it's that the cartoonist was oblivious to that imagery and how it might look to other groups.

That's the same case with this game -- the creators seem to have just grabbed art motifs and caricatures as they pleased without considering what kind of historical foundation they were building upon. And when you do that as a creator, you risk inadvertently empowering that imagery and risk that context becoming part of your own work.

Deleted member 5167 · Nov 12, 2017

King Tubby said:
Then what is "Copyright 1930" meant to signify? It's one of many things meant to evoke more than just an aesthetic.

Its a joke. Like 30th century Fox at the beginning of Futurama.
Neither are representing themselves as actual products of an anachronism.

King Tubby · Nov 12, 2017

I actually really liked the Werman fight as an example of sly satire for various reasons. I thought it was explicitly leaning into that history to make a point.

The first and most obvious parody is of Tom and Jerry. Werman, a mouse, is an analogue of Jerry. Jerry was a common nickname for German soldiers in both World Wars. Werner Werman is obviously a reference to Germany, and I take him as also being a parody of wartime propaganda that reduces the enemy to anthropomorphic caricatures.

Drawing on the imagery of mice goes deeper than that, however. As noted, Jews were famously compared to rats (vermin) in Nazi propaganda. In this case it seems to be turned on its head, as the mouse here is a proud German veteran with medals hanging on his wall. Given the context of the game as having been "made" in 1930, it's safe to assume he is a veteran of World War I. Adolf Hitler was a decorated veteran of World War I. He is the true vermin. Werner attacks from a tank made out of a soup can, which to me is a reflection of the economic situation in Germany at the time. When he charges at you, he makes what looks a lot like a Nazi salute. In the end of the fight, the German's home is torn asunder by an engineered monstrosity that was designed to both stamp out "vermin" and the external enemy (you, Cuphead).

I didn't know about Werman being a Jewish name, so perhaps that changes things a bit, but I took the encounter to be a clever metaphor of sorts for 1930's-40's Germany, rather than being a propagation of antisemitism.

John Konstantin · Nov 12, 2017

I'm not sure if I understand this. Cuphead art is based on a media (30's cartoon) that had racists works back in the time. Cuphead itself it's not racist but can bring back painful memories, did I get it right?. Probably all existing media has been used at some point to spread racism and bigotry (or it's currently used): documentary, films, books, you name it. There were racist comics strips and I have never heard someone saying that Dilbert (for example) brings back painful memories.

Deleted member 3093 · Nov 12, 2017

Filament Star said:
They shouldn't have to pass some purity test. And bringing it up would just alert the 99% of people who have no idea anyone else has a problem with it.

I'm not sure I really grasp the issue of informing people. It sounds to me like being informed on this would be a positive thing.

Inugami · Nov 12, 2017

John Konstantin said:
I'm not sure if I understand this. Cuphead art is based on a media (30's cartoon) that had racists works back in the time. Cuphead itself it's not racist but can bring back painful memories, did I get it right?. Probably all existing media has been used at some point to spread racism and bigotry (or it's currently used): documentary, films, books, you name it. There were racist comics strips and I have never heard someone saying that Dilbert (for example) brings back painful memories.

You're being intellectually dishonest with your example. It's not about the fact that it's an animation, but that it's borrowing a style that was often used to caricaturize minorities. For your example to work, Dilbert would have to be drawn in the same style as, say, those ads from the 30's using black and white babies to advertise soap.

Karnova · Nov 12, 2017

Cream said:
Is why most of the people in the thread are just asking for a disclaimer in the game

A Disclaimer? What would the Disclaimer be?

"Cuphead is inspired by the works of classic cartooning. Some of those classic cartoons held offensive content. MDHR does not approve of such content."

The 1956 Classic The Searchers is one of the best films of all time, and has an utterly racist portrayal of Native Americans. Countless films have directly been inspired by John Ford's direction. Would you want them to run a disclaimer even though they might not portray any racist imagery? I'm sorry but while I most certainly agree those old Fleischer shorts can contain content that has to be observed with mature eyes Cuphead just doesn't need to dredge it up, especially when racial humor just wasn't a key component in the Golden Age of American Animation.

Llyrwenne · Nov 12, 2017

Thank you moderation team. <3

ourghostsofwar said:
Is there? I think if people are genuinely as upset as they are about there not being a disclaimer, what do you think would happen if the single black character in the game was a boss that had to be defeated.

I don't think anyone is 'upset' about there not being a disclaimer. I'm not, at least.

Sakujou said:
i think this is very far fetched to call out cuphead a racist game. yes, back then the cartoons had a racist undertone because it was normal to be pejorative towards blacks, jews whatever.

iam glad thad MDHR killed anything out of that racist shit from those cartoons and preserved this awesome artstyle for their game, and it is important to know that MDHR's game is a rethought work from that era, but calling out that game racist is a bad namecalling.

its the same as with tom and jerry(i think thats from the 50s?) where the housemaid is a black woman. i think you were able to see her here and there, but as a kid i never thought of this "oh white people are having a cat, a mouse and a black woman who is unable to kill the mouse in the house"

of course now as an adult i do care, but as a kid, you are out there for fun. and tom and jerry was intentionally fun, nothing of preaching racism or how stupid cats,dogs, mice or black house maids were.

Nobody is calling Cuphead a 'racist game' though.

John Konstantin said:
I'm not sure if I understand this. Cuphead art is based on a media (30's cartoon) that had racists works back in the time. Cuphead itself it's not racist but can bring back painful memories, did I get it right?.

Yes, I would say that is an accurate description of what the article tries to get to.

John Konstantin said:
Probably all existing media has been used at some point to spread racism and bigotry (or it's currently used): documentary, films, books, you name it. There were racist comics strips and I have never heard someone saying that Dilbert (for example) brings back painful memories.

The difference lies in that Cuphead specifically champions a long-dormant specific art style that was tied to racist caricatures. Dilbert doesn't bring up painful memories because - as far as I know - it does not draw from long-dormant art or writing styles with historical ties to racism.

Mammoth Jones · Nov 12, 2017

I'm aware of the art style that's been used to mock and denigrate my people. But I never made the association when playing Cuphead. Maybe I didn't get far enough? But nothing bothered me when I played it. I just thought the animation was outstanding. The game doesn't bother me in the slightest.

My thing is: The animation is a medium. To me that's neutral. How it's used matters. Black-and-white film has been used to mock and disrespect black people but I can't say that just because a movie uses that medium that it's inherently disrespectful to me.

Inugami · Nov 12, 2017

Mammoth Jones said:
I'm aware of the art style that's been used to mock and denigrate my people. But I never made the association when playing Cuphead. Maybe I didn't get far enough? But nothing bothered me when I played it. I just thought the animation was outstanding. The game doesn't bother me in the slightest.

My thing is: The animation is a medium. To me that's neutral. How it's used matters. Black-and-white film has been used to mock and disrespect black people but I can't say that just because a movie uses that medium that it's inherently disrespectful to me.

Black and white isn't a style (or, at least it wasn't originally, it was a technological limitation). This art direction is a style. There in lies the difference.

Delusibeta · Nov 12, 2017

Chindogg said:
MDHR were always going to be in a damned if you do damned if you don't situation the second they chose this art style for their game.

On one hand, if they kept all the classic racism of the original art style they'd be lambasted on social media and in think pieces about how terrible they are as people for making a game based in racism.

On the other hand you have this, which now gets criticism for "wiping clean" the racial stereotypes while preserving the style. I'd like to say it'd probably have been better if they just went with a different style, but then we wouldn't have this amazing game.

It sucks, but that's how it goes.

Pretty much, and quite frankly I don't know any way MDHR could have addressed this issue without causing uproar.

Llyrwenne · Nov 12, 2017

Karnova said:
A Disclaimer? What would the Disclaimer be?

"Cuphead is inspired by the works of classic cartooning. Some of those classic cartoons held offensive content. MDHR does not approve of such content."

The 1956 Classic The Searchers is one of the best films of all time, and has an utterly racist portrayal of Native Americans. Countless films have directly been inspired by John Ford's direction. Would you want them to run a disclaimer even though they might not portray any racist imagery? I'm sorry but while I most certainly agree those old Fleischer shorts can contain content that has to be observed with mature eyes Cuphead just doesn't need to dredge it up, especially when racial humor just wasn't a key component in the Golden Age of American Animation.

But Cuphead isn't simply 'inspired by' 1930s animation, it champions it. Its identity is largely defined by that animation style. I must admit I am not familiar John Ford or his direction, but I would imagine that any work that is specifically about championing him or his work would at some point make mention of the portrayals of Native Americans in his work.

Mammoth Jones · Nov 12, 2017

KojiKnight said:
Black and white isn't a style (or, at least it wasn't originally, it was a technological limitation). This art direction is a style. There in lies the difference.

Makes no difference to my eyes. It's a visual medium.

I'm not making a value judgement. I'm just stating the game didn't bother me in the slightest. Is there a specific boss or something that hits the nail on the head? Because if it's just the art direction it speaks to me as something from that time period and not something implicitly or passively racist.

Deleted member 5865 · Nov 12, 2017

I don't see a problem in using an artstyle and avoiding problematic stereotypes others used with the same style of cartoon. If Cuphead ignored all of the bad stuff I wouldn't have a problem with it honestly. However, since Cuphead purposefully included a "tricky black men tempt protagonists with sinful vices to the beat of wicked black music" storyline then it's very weird that the creators try to claim that they wanted to avoid problematic things. Its a plot-line that's played completely straight, with King Dice and the Devil being the only two real villains, when smarter writers could've done something a little more clever.

Kirblar · Nov 12, 2017

Llyrwenne said:
But Cuphead isn't simply 'inspired by' 1930s animation, it champions it. Its identity is largely defined by that animation style. I must admit I am not familiar John Ford or his direction, but I would imagine that any work that is specifically about championing him or his work would at some point make mention of the portrayals of Native Americans in his work.

But it's not championing any pieces of animation directly in that manner. It's a love letter to the animation style, but one which is aware of the problems of the era and actively went out of its way to try and remove the negative parts.

If Cuphead were using specific characters and such directly from a cartoon of that era that did have racist imagery, it'd be another story.

-COOLIO- · Nov 12, 2017

Joeku said:
It was hard to not have this in the back of my head as I played it. You'll notice that in an effort to skirt issues, nobody has lips at all, unless it's explicitly lipstick.

Compare that to a pre-release Devil:

And it's hard to not feel for the people over at MDHR. Some of that art is so great, but some is so, so racist.

I think "skirting" is the wrong word. They recognized the problem and opted to remove the problematic elements.

Uzuki · Nov 12, 2017

Delusibeta said:
Pretty much, and quite frankly I don't know any way MDHR could have addressed this issue without causing uproar.

Well for one when people ask them about the racial imagery that is ingrained in the art style, they don't say:

"We don't really understand or like that part so we're just going to use the art style anyway and ignore the icky bits"

*Proceeds to make several characters that draw on racial themes and imagery*

"Welp, looks like we accidentally made some characters that draw on some racial stereotypes and makes a portion of our audience uncomfortable. Woopsie Doodle!"

Shpeshal Nick · Nov 12, 2017

I'm assuming the fact that some art was changed during development suggest StudioMDHR was aware of the potentially offensive historical baggage that came with the artstyle?

I mean, unless the artstyle was specifically created to racially vilify an entire group of people, then I don't think it shouldn't ever be used again or anything like that.

Llyrwenne · Nov 12, 2017

Delusibeta said:
Pretty much, and quite frankly I don't know any way MDHR could have addressed this issue without causing uproar.

But this isn't just a binary choice between 'whitewashing' and 'embracing racist caricatures'. They could have added a simple disclaimer, or they could have made a simple statement, or they could have replaced the racist caricatures with a more authentic representation of black people instead of wiping black representation away entirely, or they could have done a bit more research and perhaps changed some of the undertones that the writer feels are still present in characters such as King Dice, etc. There's more than just two options here. I think they could absolutely have addressed this better than they did.

-COOLIO- · Nov 12, 2017

4cute said:
I don't see a problem in using an artstyle and avoiding problematic stereotypes others used with the same style of cartoon. If Cuphead ignored all of the bad stuff I wouldn't have a problem with it honestly. However, since Cuphead purposefully included a "tricky black men tempt protagonists with sinful vices to the beat of wicked black music" storyline then it's very weird that the creators try to claim that they wanted to avoid problematic things. Its a plot-line that's played completely straight, with King Dice and the Devil being the only two real villains, when smarter writers could've done something a little more clever.

I simply don't see how the devil in cuphead in any way embolizes black people or black culture.

Shpeshal Nick · Nov 12, 2017

-COOLIO- said:
I simply don't see how the devil in cuphead in any way embolizes black people or black culture.

I guess I'm assuming because he's black in colour as opposed to the more "traditional" red?

Deleted member 5865 · Nov 12, 2017

-COOLIO- said:
I simply don't see how the devil in cuphead in any way embolizes black people or black culture.

He had "black people lips" in the earlier version. While coloring them black/removing them was a good idea, it still doesn't change the "black = sinister" stuff being played straight

Mr. X · Nov 12, 2017

I feel like people are posting without reading the article if they think it's about the art direction versus the package. It dances too close to some of those old tropes even without the blackface or similar signals.

-COOLIO- · Nov 12, 2017

4cute said:
He had "black people lips" in the earlier version. While coloring them black/removing them was a good idea, it still doesn't change the "black = sinister" stuff being played straight

Sure, it defintiely plays into the #000000 = evil and #ffffff = good. But without black face, i don't think it's problematic. Even as we as a society get better about race relations, literal black being bad and literal white being good is ingrained into our biology. Darkness is scary because we can't see in it. White is the opposite of that.

thedrunkenchild · Nov 12, 2017

4cute said:
He had "black people lips" in the earlier version. While coloring them black/removing them was a good idea, it still doesn't change the "black = sinister" stuff being played straight

Shpeshal Ed said:
I guess I'm assuming because he's black in colour as opposed to the more "traditional" red?

the devil throughout history has always been depicted as a black horned hairy monster, Black is symbolic of the dark, of absence of light(god):

Stook · Nov 12, 2017

I'm black, an animator, and well versed in animation history. For me this article is a stretch.

Deleted member 25323 · Nov 12, 2017

The article really reads like "popular game + dividing topic = clicks." The studio really has no responsibility to dive into the racist history of the style because they have no hand in that honey jar.

petran79 · Nov 12, 2017

eyeball_kid said:
My last sentence pretty much explained why we can't just hand wave away these things because they are coincidences: The developers' own comments just make them sound oblivious to all the imagery they're drawing from, but it comes off a bit willfully ignorant, or at the least lazy because they didn't do research on how this iconography might play to other groups who are more aware of the history.

This isn't just about the intent of the developers. I mean, yeah let's all hope these guys weren't putting subtle racist messages in their game, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that. What this is about, and what the article was trying to express, is that game developers have the same responsibility as filmmakers to do research about the art and the culture that they are putting into their game. That's important because imagery that you just think looks cool can have a completely different meaning to someone who is aware. On the rat character for instance, I'm not a holocaust expert or even Jewish, but rats have had a long history of being used to describe Jews and other minority groups that are seen as dirty and unwanted. The Nazis were obsessed with this association and in releasing propaganda movies and posters to affirm it, and even the gas used to kill Jews in concentration camps was a pesticide used to kill rats. So a German cartoon rat already kind of evokes this association. But then when the rat is given a Jewish name, well. It's hard not to make that connection, regardless of the fact that it is dressed as a soldier. That pea soup of character attributes still evokes something vile from our past. And this imagery is still powerful. Even as recently as 2015, The Daily Mail had a cartoon about immigrants that had rats scurrying and it caused a big uproar. It doesn't matter as much whether the newspaper intended to evoke antisemitic imagery, it's that the cartoonist was oblivious to that imagery and how it might look to other groups.

That's the same case with this game -- the creators seem to have just grabbed art motifs and caricatures as they pleased without considering what kind of historical foundation they were building upon. And when you do that as a creator, you risk inadvertently empowering that imagery and risk that context becoming part of your own work.

The awarded graphic novel Maus drew Jews as mice and Germans as cats.

There is also a short animation film about the Ottomans gathering all the stray dogs in an island and let them die, in order to clean Istanbul and make it appear clean and westernised. Short before the Armenian genocide and the concentration camps took place.

Also short before the French Revolution there was a spree of kidnapping and killing the cats of nobles

Deleted member 5865 · Nov 12, 2017

-COOLIO- said:
Sure, it defintiely plays into the #000000 = evil and #ffffff = good. But without black face, i don't think it's problematic. Even as we as a society get better about race relations, literal black being bad and literal white being good is ingrained into our biology. Darkness is scary because we can't see in it. White is the opposite of that.

My bad, I was referring to the idea of the Devil, as a symbol of sinfulness, being in cahoots with King Dice and all that he represents

Deleted member 283 · Nov 12, 2017

RedHill said:
The article really reads like "popular game + dividing topic = clicks." The studio really has no responsibility to dive into the racist history of the style because they have no hand in that honey jar.

Based on what? And why even go there to begin with? Why assume their motives and assume they're not being honest about them? You can disagree with the piece without assuming and calling it clickbait. Like, that's a perfectly valid option--that the piece does in fact capture the writing's feelings about the subject, just as your post captures own feelings. That's just really uncalled for IMO to go there and assuming the worst of the writer like that just because you disagree with them. =/

Jader7777 · Nov 12, 2017

Those ol' timey cartoons got banned for multiple reasons, not just because 'it featured other races' but more often than not featured something that was actually happening in society, but sensationalized due to the nature of the medium.

This is a cartoon about an immigrant family whose daughter runs away only to find a song and dance routine about how life is laced with drugs, abuse and incarceration along with the electric chair. The nature of the media is not to be evil, it's trying to be honest. Yes, the world is harsh, it's full of liars and abusers, it has unhappy families and individuals, people of various races are in it and they struggle with the world; would you deny this was the case in the 30s? Or really at any other point in history?

The whole idea of it 'dredge(s) up the bigotry and prejudice' is ludicrous; we already have seen thousands of people playing the game- did any of those lets players turn to the camera and say "This reminds me why black people are inferior and white people are superior!!" No! That never happened nor was it at any point the theme or goal of the game.

The only reason I can imagine this was brought up was to either virtue signal that "I know the secret racist past of X!" or that the author felt a need to take a totally negative stance when trying to write the article "This video game features an art style that was popularized during a time of racial tension... so it's evil KKK propagnda!!". Can't we just acknowledge that not everything in the world has the most pleasant of origins and then move on? I'm struggling to see how this sort of 'call out' culture solves anything, ever.

Deleted member 283 · Nov 12, 2017

Jader7777 said:
The only reason I can imagine this was brought up was to either virtue signal that "I know the secret racist past of X!" or that the author felt a need to take a totally negative stance when trying to write the article "This video game features an art style that was popularized during a time of racial tension... so it's evil KKK propagnda!!". Can't we just acknowledge that not everything in the world has the most pleasant of origins and then move on? I'm struggling to see how this sort of 'call out' culture solves anything, ever.

Pose the same to you:

ShironRedshift said:
Based on what? And why even go there to begin with? Why assume their motives and assume they're not being honest about them? You can disagree with the piece without assuming and calling it clickbait. Like, that's a perfectly valid option--that the piece does in fact capture the writing's feelings about the subject, just as your post captures own feelings. That's just really uncalled for IMO to go there and assuming the worst of the writer like that just because you disagree with them. =/

Like maybe... just maybe, the piece isn't "virtue signaling" at all? Maybe it does just capture their feelings and is them being completely honest? It's fine to disagree with the author, but why assume the worst of them because you disagree? Is it really that impossible that this is actually how they feel about that subject? Do they really not have a right to those feelings? Like, why even go there? It's just utterly dismissive, offensive, and completely uncalled for and adds nothing to the topic to go for such a low blow of the author of the piece like that.

Like it's fine to disagree. Ain't nothing wrong with that. That's fine. But if you're going to disagree, then disagree. Don't take it out on the author themselves and start getting personal and questioning the motives for the piece. That's just uncalled for and way over the line and just an all around gross thing to do. =/

Htown · Nov 12, 2017

Jader7777 said:
The only reason I can imagine this was brought up was to either virtue signal

oh lord

Karnova · Nov 12, 2017

Llyrwenne said:
But Cuphead isn't simply 'inspired by' 1930s animation, it champions it. Its identity is largely defined by that animation style. I must admit I am not familiar John Ford or his direction, but I would imagine that any work that is specifically about championing him or his work would at some point make mention of the portrayals of Native Americans in his work.

Hmm no not really. And you might not be familiar with John Ford but you know his direction as it was totally copied in Star Wars (and it's a major favorite among almost all the other Brat Pack directors, Scorsese, Spielberg, etc). Even the official Star Wars website recognizes that. http://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-searchers

I don't think Star Wars has to explain to the viewers that The Searchers contains some nasty racial stereotyping. I don't think an orchestra needs to chastise a dead racist bastard like Richard Wagner before playing one of his great pieces. And I just don't think Cuphead needs to apologize for being inspired by an era of cartooning that sometimes employed racial gags for laughs.

I think it's also really unfair to treat Cuphead as if it's the equivalent to a Rock Tribute Band. It has it's very own look and feel to it, it's largely inspired by cartoons of the 30s but so was Osamu Tezuka when he was creating Astro Boy and defining Manga.

Llyrwenne · Nov 12, 2017

Kirblar said:
But it's not championing any pieces of animation directly in that manner. It's a love letter to the animation style, but one which is aware of the problems of the era and actively went out of its way to try and remove the negative parts.

If Cuphead were using specific characters and such directly from a cartoon of that era that did have racist imagery, it'd be another story.

I did not intend to imply it championed any one specific piece of animation. Yes, it is a love letter to the style as a whole. My point is that the distinctiveness of this animation style will inevitably bring to light the racist caricatures that were tied to it. The style is so distinctive that you do not need to bring in specific characters from such cartoons in order for that part of history to be brought to light. It is connected to the style in such a way that I find it hard to separate them. They went out of their way to remove the negative parts, yes, and I believe that is a good thing overall, but I can't say I get the impression that they show great awareness of the problems of the era from the following points from the article;

When asked in a Rolling Stone interview about the unfortunate associations of Cuphead's 1930s aesthetic, lead inking artist for the game, Maja Moldenhauer replies: "It's just visuals and that's about it. Anything else happening in that era we're not versed in it."

Many early cartoon characters were tricksters, layabouts, and thieves, archetypes born from the depiction of the lazy slaves minstrel shows specialized in. Cuphead happens to star a pair of tricksters, Cuphead and Mugman, who make a deal with the devil over a gambling debt, an activity often linked in 1930s cartoons to the implied sinfulness and savagery of black Harlem and the era of swing music and jazz.

So when Cuphead uses imagery of gambling, heaven and hell for its setting, it employs images and tropes that were established originally to make moral statements about the lazy and savage blacks of Harlem and their sinful "jungle music."

Deleted member 197 · Nov 12, 2017

Llyrwenne said:
Thank you moderation team. <3

I don't think anyone is 'upset' about there not being a disclaimer. I'm not, at least.

Nobody is calling Cuphead a 'racist game' though.

Yes, I would say that is an accurate description of what the article tries to get to.

The difference lies in that Cuphead specifically champions a long-dormant specific art style that was tied to racist caricatures. Dilbert doesn't bring up painful memories because - as far as I know - it does not draw from long-dormant art or writing styles with historical ties to racism.

I think saying "historical ties with racism" is a perception issue, the style was popular in a time when America was really racist and then the style felt dormant, but the problem is not the artstyle, is with the American society, if something existed in america back then it was most probably used for racism; the artstyle is not inherently racist, i have seen some examples of the racist cartoons of that era and they never crossed my mind while playing the game(i'm not black though).

I am not against the idea of the disclaimer at the start, but i wouldnt hold it against them for not doing it, many things have been associated with racism or used for racist attacks, some even as benign as watermelons, yet we don't expect watermelon sellers to educate us on the use of their fruit, yet i know it sounds ridiculous comparing watermelons to racism, but as someone who is not a big fan of fried chicken hearing about it always makes me think of the stereotypes against black people, different people will react different to certain products.

And i don't think is whitewashing, is never implied in Cuphead that the artstyle was never used for racism or that some of the artistic influences the game has were made by white people, tackling issues of the past societies are hard, thats why in media the most common way of tackling those issues is by having them as your main focus, even a classic like La vita è bella didn't escape the criticism of downplaying the holocaust.

Whitewashing for me is more when people act all indignant about White Supremacy in the US, i mean after all the US beat the Nazis right? Totally hiding the fact that the US was a white supremacy society for a long time and still was during WW2 to the point they sent a segregated army.

Deleted member 15326 · Nov 12, 2017

I didn't pick up on it really, but there was something really familiar about the dice dude and the frogs that I couldn't put my finger on. The article helped clear that up.

Yeah, there was a shitload of racism in old media including cartoons, but I don't think the cuphead devs were trying to hide it or downplay it. If anything this could help younger people get hip to what was going on if they look into the influences/references in the game.

SpartacusMD · Nov 12, 2017

Its ok to say "it brings bad memories."

Its not ok to even begin to hint that things like this should be filtered. If anything they should remind us of how far we've come.

Once you begin to go down the line of thinking that everything that was a offensive in the past needs screening then you'd be surprised how much of our reality we'd have to let go of. Should we no longer drive BMWs if we're jewish? Should we no longer drink starbucks if you're on the palestinian side of the israel-palestinian conflict? Should Japanese-Americans avoid california at all costs? Should Americans never go to Japan?

I mean the US hated Japan and Germany in the 1940s, now they are our besties. So history is important but at some point you have to move on.

Jader7777 · Nov 12, 2017

ShironRedshift said:
Like maybe... just maybe, the piece isn't "virtue signaling" at all? Maybe it does just capture their feelings and is them being completely honest? It's fine to disagree with the author, but why assume the worst of them because you disagree? Is it really that impossible that this is actually how they feel about that subject? Do they really not have a right to those feelings? Like, why even go there? It's just utterly dismissive, offensive, and completely uncalled for and adds nothing to the topic to go for such a low blow of the author of the piece like that.

Like it's fine to disagree. Ain't nothing wrong with that. That's fine. But if you're going to disagree, then disagree. Don't take it out on the author themselves and start getting personal and questioning the motives for the piece. That's just uncalled for and way over the line and just an all around gross thing to do. =/

Okay, maybe I was too dismissive of the author's personal feelings of the game and maybe I just like Cuphead too much to not see red.

I'm not disagreeing with the history of the animation used in Cuphead, there's an interesting history behind where this has all come from but imputing that Cuphead is somehow compliant with the terrible things that happened in the past is a bridge too far. The point of Cuphead was to use the art style, it isn't trying to tackle the problems of the past. It'd be interesting to see a game that might have the gall to do so, but 'gamers' are often not described as cultured and games that try to deal with heavier subjects usually flop or are embarrassments, but I still think it's worth a try.

Starlatine · Nov 12, 2017

petran79 said:
The awarded graphic novel Maus drew Jews as mice and Germans as cats.

There is also a short animation film about the Ottomans gathering all the stray dogs in an island and let them die, in order to clean Istanbul and make it appear clean and westernised. Short before the Armenian genocide and the concentration camps took place.

Also short before the French Revolution there was a spree of kidnapping and killing the cats of nobles

Wouldn't the comparison fall flat to cuphead then? I mean, people are stuck on the werman thing, but he's but one third of the boss fight, he gets eaten by the cat - which is revealed to be controlled by the rat all along.

So unless people are implying they tried to sneak some propaganda about germans and jews being in cahoots, isn't more natural to claim they were trying to evoke the several "mouse - cat" cartoons of the era with the werman bossfight? Still faulty for them on lacking research and totally deserving of at least one statement back, but nowhere as malicious as some people are trying to claim (including citing 'im giving studio MDHR the benefit of doubt', how benevolent of you to not use your own interpretation to paint an entire studio as spreading racist propaganda with no clues upfront!)

Cabbagehead · Nov 12, 2017

Zero-ELEC said:
That's a good article, but I'm not sure what could possibly be done about it.

In a way, it is whitewashing to just ignore the racial caricatures that these types of animations spouted, especially when the game itself pulls specifically from the jazzy cartoons that featured the worst of this. The gambling motif, Dice King, the singing lounges, etc.

On the other hand, I can't think of a way for them to "do it better", except perhaps as stated previously in the thread to have a small disclaimer at the beginning of the game? But even then, it's not like they're doing something that needs disclaimers, I guess? I dunno.

I guess it's an Unwinnable situation. (Eh? Get it?)

Pretty much, nice tie in at the end. lol

Unwinnable: Cuphead and the Racist Spectre of Fleischer Animation

I can say DEI; you can't.

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