Don't buy Mega Man Legacy Collection 1 on Switch. It has bad input lag.

DrMoguera · Jun 3, 2018

I think I would refute the notion that these are games that require close to frame-perfect precision which seems to be kinda implied by some of these posts and it's not really as devastating as some in this thread make it sound. Mega Man games definitely require a degree of precision but in terms of input time they're fairly forgiving. With or without the turbo mode, the games are completely playable and I don't think any veteran will truly be thrown off to the extent that has been described here. The audio lag is certainly the bigger issue.

RobFox64tm · Jun 3, 2018

I've only really noticed the lag in Mega Man 1. I beat 2 yesterday, and it felt just like any other post-CRT version I've played. If it really isn't as good as the other versions, I hope Capcom releases a patch to improve it, as well as a patch for MMLC2's scaling and aspect ratio problems for Mega Mans 7, 9 and 10. That's an even more egregious oversight, in my opinion.

New Donker · Jun 3, 2018

Jonneh said:
I've played through the whole collection without any problems? There may be traces of input lag but the sentiment of "don't buy it" is far too strong. It's still a great version of the game.

Turbo mode on or off?

Jonneh · Jun 3, 2018

SeanR1221 said:
Turbo mode on or off?

I've got turbo on

New Donker · Jun 3, 2018

Jonneh said:
I've got turbo on

So I'm not the lone crazy person and don't really see a major difference with it on or off :)

Why would you do that? · Jun 3, 2018

I immediately noticed the input lag, too. :(

Between this and Hamster's laggy release of Vs. Super Mario Bros., I'm really, really missing Nintendo's emulators from the Virtual Console.

Legacy Collection 2 is fine, though. MM7 and 8 feel great, and 9 and 10 feel great as well (though those are very likely not emulated).

retrobotjr · Jun 3, 2018

I played through every game on both collections and didn't have any problems

El Pescado · Jun 3, 2018

Hieroph said:
Crapcom just doesn't care, at least when it comes to the Switch.

You'd think that they would have a made a decent port with how long this took to come out, but it looks like a rush job. Like Rush Submarine bad.

At this point people have to be concern trolling. There's nothing unplayable about this port in the slightest.

Dreamwriter · Jun 3, 2018

TheThirstyPrisoner said:
You've got it backwards. A real NES has very little (close to zero) response latency—that is the whole reason why this is such a big deal to those who know the games well. Megaman 9 & 10, until this current collection, had (relatively) far more lag than any of the original games ever had.

"Close to zero" is wildly incorrect. Almost every NES game has input latency on actual hardware. For example, Megaman 2 responds two frames after you press a button. Same with Super Mario Bros. Most NES games have at least one frame of input lag.

RowdyReverb · Jun 3, 2018

El Pescado said:
At this point people have to be concern trolling. There's nothing unplayable about this port in the slightest.

I think some people are just salty about falling into pits. I'm just glad for the rewind feature

Hieroph · Jun 3, 2018

El Pescado said:
At this point people have to be concern trolling. There's nothing unplayable about this port in the slightest.

Did you see RockmanBN's video?

RockmanBN said:
It's really bad. Tested it on my switch screen and PS4 version. You can easily hear the difference in the last few seconds and this is in original. This needs a patch.

I mean, sure, you can play the version with input lag if you really want. But why would you want to?

Why would you do that? · Jun 3, 2018

El Pescado said:
At this point people have to be concern trolling. There's nothing unplayable about this port in the slightest.

It can definitely be unplayable to those that are sensitive to the lag, the same way games with low framerates are unplayable to certain people.

For me, I can't play the also laggy Vs. Super Mario Bros. because I keep running into holes and enemies, lol. Mega Man Legacy Collection 1 isn't as bad, but it definitely trips me up a lot, like with the Yellow Devil sequence that requires precise input. This is mitigated with the Rewind feature, but still.

Why would you do that? · Jun 3, 2018

(sorry for double post, I thought I hit "Edit"...)

Hieroph said:
Did you see RockmanBN's video?

I mean, sure, you can play the version with input lag if you want. But why would you want to?

To be fair, audio lag is a completely different thing from input or display lag. Audio lag has to do with the audio buffer size, and will very likely be slower than the image.

El Pescado · Jun 3, 2018

Hieroph said:
Did you see RockmanBN's video?

I mean, sure, you can play the version with input lag if you really want. But why would you want to?

I'm not saying there isn't lag, but it doesn't make the game unplayable or broken. I've played these games all my life on tons of platforms and they feel absolutely fine.

Why would you do that? said:
For me, I can't play the also laggy Vs. Super Mario Bros. because I keep running into holes and enemies, lol. Mega Man Legacy Collection 1 isn't as bad, but it definitely trips me up a lot, like with the Yellow Devil sequence that requires precise input. This is mitigated with the Rewind feature, but still.

I don't think VS. Super Mario Bros. is any laggier than the original arcade version. The arcade version always felt different than the NES version to me. I played it a lot when I was a kid because some of the levels were different and I just didn't understand why at that point in my life.

hibikase · Jun 3, 2018

Tolerance to lag in classic games is a lot dependent on whether or not you have played a significant amount of time of that game on a CRT.

Like, timing in SMB1 is so hardcoded in my brain that I can't play any of the modern re-releases of it (NES Classic, Vs. SMB Switch). Any variance in timing just completely throws off my split-second predictions of where everything will go.

TheThirstyPrisoner · Jun 3, 2018

El Pescado said:
At this point people have to be concern trolling. There's nothing unplayable about this port in the slightest.

Definitely not "unplayable," but I also think it is a bigger deal than many here are making it out to be. I've spent the evening going back and forth between Megaman 1 on both Switch (Turbo and Normal Modes) and 3DS. Playing on Switch felt like a chore and I started to understand the people who have been saying 1 is the most difficult Megaman. Then on 3DS I blew through all six robot masters, only dying once. Regardless of "playable" or not, these games are just more fun when they are responsive—the way they were originally meant to be.

For everyone who is saying they didn't have a problem, a more accurate assertion would be that you didn't notice a problem because it is most certainly there. I'd encourage you to try playing the games on a different format for comparison.

Custódio · Jun 3, 2018

I wonder which has less lag between the PC version or the original games on retroarch using the new lag compensation option?

Why would you do that? · Jun 3, 2018

El Pescado said:
I don't think VS. Super Mario Bros. is any laggier than the original arcade version. The arcade version always felt different than the NES version to me. I played it a lot when I was a kid because some of the levels were different and I just didn't understand why at that point in my life.

I've read impressions that the arcade machine was laggy, but I personally had a different experience. I used to play the arcade game at Barcade in NYC a lot (until they sadly removed the game a few months ago), and it never felt laggy to me at all. The arcade game also felt great when I emulated it on the PC.

I am very curious about lag in that game, though, because several people mentioned it, so there must be some truth to it...

El Pescado · Jun 3, 2018

hibikase said:
Tolerance to lag in classic games is a lot dependent on whether or not you have played a significant amount of time of that game on a CRT.

Like, timing in SMB1 is so hardcoded in my brain that I can't play any of the modern re-releases of it (NES Classic, Vs. SMB Switch). Any variance in timing just completely throws off my split-second predictions of where everything will go.

I've been playing these games my whole life. I only just got rid of my CRT like 3 years ago and I did all my classic gaming on one until then.

I'm just saying VS. SMB always had different physics from NES SMB.

TheThirstyPrisoner · Jun 3, 2018

Dreamwriter said:
"Close to zero" is wildly incorrect. ...NES games have at least one frame of input lag.

And how many frames do PS3/PS4 games typically have? One is about as close to zero as you can get.

Richiek · Jun 3, 2018

RobFox64tm said:
I've only really noticed the lag in Mega Man 1. I beat 2 yesterday, and it felt just like any other post-CRT version I've played. If it really isn't as good as the other versions, I hope Capcom releases a patch to improve it, as well as a patch for MMLC2's scaling and aspect ratio problems for Mega Mans 7, 9 and 10. That's an even more egregious oversight, in my opinion.

Agreed. It also doesn't help that MM1 is way more difficult than 2 or 3.

shadowman16 · Jun 3, 2018

The original Mega Man also has that bizarre momentum based movement, if you stop moving left/right he'll slide along the floor for a few seconds before coming to a complete halt. Like the entire game is on ice. Its an odd inclusion that's thankfully removed from the rest of the series. Doesn't help the original MM also has some pretty glitchy areas either (Ice Man's moving platforms are shit tier!) but I still love the original. So close to doing a no death run, reckon I should manage it soon...

Magnus · Jun 3, 2018

Huh, I'm usually sensitive to this and don't notice it at all.

andymoogle · Jun 3, 2018

I don't see why some people are being so defensive about this. Some of us care more about input lag than others.

Personally I hate input lag. It doesnt matter if it's possible to finish the game or not. If I can notice the input lag, then it's a poor experience. So I for one am glad that this thread exists.

Dreamwriter · Jun 3, 2018

TheThirstyPrisoner said:
And how many frames do PS3/PS4 games typically have? One is about as close to zero as you can get.

I said "at least" one frame, and specifically brought up how MegaMan 2 has two frames of lag on actual NES hardware. As for how any frames of input lag PS3/4 games typically have, I would guess zero, one at the very most (that would be for lazy programmers). These days computers and consoles have plenty of speed to be able to act on input when it comes rather than only checking input once per frame. Kinda depends on the developer.

My point was, comparing a native modern console game to an emulated console game is a bad example, because chances are the input lag of the modern game would be better even when comparing against the original hardware.

Fun fact, most Atari 2600 games checked input while the screen was being drawn so they could respond to input the same frame it occurred, it wasn't until NES/SNES/Genesis that games started only checking input after the previous frame was drawn.

henlo_birb · Jun 3, 2018

I've noticed that the Switch has considerable input lag in general. Even in the menu. It's why I wasn't ever too bummed about no VC, because I prefer to play on modded systems or FPGA systems for retro.

Durante · Jun 3, 2018

Custódio said:
I wonder which has less lag between the PC version or the original games on retroarch using the new lag compensation option?

If you connect the same screen and use both the Retroarch internal lag compensation and the hard GPU sync options it should have even less input lag than the original console version, never mind the PC version (which is probably about as quick as Retroarch without the lag compensation and hard sync options).

Dreamwriter said:
As for how any frames of input lag PS3/4 games typically have, I would guess zero, one at the very most

Heh, that's droll.

Especially "high-end" PS3 games tend to have rather ludicrous input lag. One of the most widely publicized and extreme (since it's an FPS) examples is Killzone 2, which had ~150 ms of input lag at release. That's equivalent to something like 9 frames at 60 FPS (of course the game is actually 30 FPS).

Here's an article with some measurements for PS3, which I copied here:

Games that run at 60 fps:

PS3 System menus: 3/60ths

Guitar Hero III (Xbox 360): 3/60th

Ridge Racer 7: 4/60ths

Virtua Tennis 3: 4/60ths

Ninja Gaiden Sigma: 4/60ths

PixelJunk Racers: 4/60ths

Games that run at 30 fps:

Genji: Days of the Blade: 6/60ths

Tony Hawk's Proving Ground: 8/60ths

BlackSite: Area 51: 8/60ths

Halo 3 (Xbox 360) : 8-10/60ths

Skate: 10/60ths

GTAIV: 10/60ths

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix: 10-14/60ths

Heavenly Sword: 7-18/60ths

Here are some measurements for the current consoles.

jett · Jun 3, 2018

Hieroph said:
Did you see RockmanBN's video?

I mean, sure, you can play the version with input lag if you really want. But why would you want to?

I've no idea what are people seeing in that video. I personally see no appreciable difference.

Dreamwriter · Jun 3, 2018

Durante said:
If you connect the same screen and use both the Retroarch internal lag compensation and the hard GPU sync options it should have even less input lag than the original console version, never mind the PC version (which is probably about as quick as Retroarch without the lag compensation and hard sync options).

Heh, that's droll.

Especially "high-end" PS3 games tend to have rather ludicrous input lag. One of the most widely publicized and extreme (since it's an FPS) examples is Killzone 2, which had ~150 ms of input lag at release. That's equivalent to something like 9 frames at 60 FPS (of course the game is actually 30 FPS).

Here's an article with some measurements for PS3, which I copied here:

Here are some measurements for the current consoles.

That's crazy, as a developer it's really easy to respond to inputs as they come in rather than look and see what input has happened after the fact. I wonder what it is that's causing this...bad game engines or something? Some sort of delay caused by the console's OS? I mean, even if you do only check for inputs after they happen, it should be simple to do that the frame after the input happened and respond the next frame (that's what many NES/SNES/Genesis games do). Maybe if the game itself was suffering slowdown I could see it, or just wasn't running its updates every frame.

RockmanBN · Jun 3, 2018

jett said:
I've no idea what are people seeing in that video. I personally see no appreciable difference.

Going from 9-10 on the LC2 to LC1 makes the difference very glaring. I have to manually think about delaing my inputs especially when making tight jumps so I don't bop my head against a ceiling and die. It feels so sluggish compared to the quick inputs from LC2.

fiendcode · Jun 3, 2018

Hieroph said:
I mean, sure, you can play the version with input lag if you really want. But why would you want to?

Both versions have input lag. Or did you mean the NES original version on original hardware?

Hieroph · Jun 3, 2018

fiendcode said:
Both versions have input lag. Or did you mean the NES original version on original hardware?

You're grasping at straws. Did you know your eyes have input lag?

When one version has noticeably more input lag than the others, that's the version with input lag.

OrakioRob · Jun 3, 2018

RockmanBN said:
It's really bad. Tested it on my switch screen and PS4 version. You can easily hear the difference in the last few seconds and this is in original. This needs a patch.

Thanks for the video! Doesn't look unplayable to me, but yeah, I can see there is lag.

Mega Man Zero · Jun 3, 2018

Yeah, the sound effects being on a half a second delay doesn't help the constant feeling that there's something wrong with this game and is probably making the input lag feel even worse for me. I've been going back and forth between MM9 handheld in MMLC2, MM4 on MMLC1, and MM4 on 3DS VC, and the input lag on 3DS and MM9 is pretty much the same, which is pretty much perfect, so I don't understand why there is any more latency on MMLC1. This is a botched port, and I don't think telling people to not buy it and support Capcom's shitty ports is "too strong". Someone had to have noticed that the audio is a half a second late and there's a bunch of input lag that should not be there at all. Good enough isn't good enough when these are supposed to be new master versions which future ports would be based on. These issues, along with the lack of an 8:7 display mode, make me not even want to play these versions. Again, I'm not saying they're unplayable, I've played it plenty. I just don't want to play these, because it's a shitty port.

LiftGammaGain · Jun 3, 2018

OP it does feel very laggy to me. Have the Ps4 retail version and don't remember being this bad. Wish i knew before i bought it...

sonofsamsonite · Jun 3, 2018

It does seem that there is lag on other versions. It's bad enough on Xbox One X that I've yet to beat the first part of Gutsman's stage.

I'm not a newbie, for the record. I've beaten every mainline game except 10 because I never had time to give that one a shot, Megaman and Bass, every X game, and every Zero game.

fiendcode · Jun 3, 2018

Hieroph said:
You're grasping at straws. Did you know your eyes have input lag?

When one version has noticeably more input lag than the others, that's the version with input lag.

All versions have noticably more input lag than a NES. Or a Wii VC actually. It just depends on where you draw the line, people were complaining about this with the original PS4/PC release 2 years ago too.

Opa-Pa · Jun 3, 2018

fiendcode said:
All versions have noticably more input lag than a NES. Or a Wii VC actually. It just depends on where you draw the line, people were complaining about this with the original PS4/PC release 2 years ago too.

And the Switch version has significantly more input lag than all those, that's what the thread is about, I don't get what we're arguing about.

fiendcode · Jun 3, 2018

Opa-Pa said:
And the Switch version has significantly more input lag than all those, that's what the thread is about, I don't get what we're arguing about.

That there is no "one without input lag" for this collection. That's all that was pointed out, there are versions with less and more but it's present everywhere and it's impact varies per person.

The Switch port is likely worst due to rewind functionality, we'll see how the other versions hold up when that's patched in.

Lurkyseas · Jun 3, 2018

Edited below.

Opa-Pa · Jun 3, 2018

fiendcode said:
That there is no "one without input lag" for this collection. That's all that was pointed out, there are versions with less and more but it's present everywhere and it's impact varies per person.

The Switch port is likely worst due to rewind functionality, we'll see how the other versions hold up when that's patched in.

I see, fair enough.

I'm curious about the rewind functionality, Capcom have been awfully quiet about patching the older versions despite promising to do so months ago.

Mauricio_Magus · Jun 3, 2018

I just played the whole collection on PC, seems like I made the right choice.

Lurkyseas · Jun 4, 2018

You can thank Digital Eclipse for their work on Mega Man Legacy Collection 1.

Seven Force said:
Some other re-releases also had a hint of input lag here and there, but it's actively impacted my actual play in LC1 Switch; I'm missing jumps that I've otherwise had no problem making throughout my years of playing MM1 because of it.

At least Collection 2 is good. Hopefully X Collection doesn't have any issues.

HylianSeven said:
That's disappointing to hear. I had the 3DS version of MMLC1 and thought about getting the 1+2 version on Switch.

I hope they don't do this to the X collection.

JCal said:
I was thinking about picking up the whole collection on Switch. Might have to pass now or wait for an update.

What's really worrying me is the X collection.

TheThirstyPrisoner said:
For anyone doubting the input lag (and if you also have Legacy Collection 2), try playing any of the games on Collection 1, them immediately exiting out and firing up a game of Megaman 9 or 10. The difference is really night and day.

I think most people who say they aren't sensitive to input lag (which to me is kind of ridiculous) will just feel like the game isn't that fun without really realizing why. These games are based on split second reactions and while they are still technically playable here, it is not hyperbole to say that input lag is game-breaking. I'm at least glad that I have the first six games on 3DS, and thankfully Collection 2 is unaffected. Hopefully Capcom sorts it out, and sooner rather than later. Fingers crossed for the X Collection.

I don't think that any of you will have to worry about the Mega Man X Legacy Collection. It's being done by Capcom of Japan themselves, just like with Mega Man Legacy Collection 2 was.

Giolon · Jun 4, 2018

Once I made sure Game Mode was turned on my TV's input, I had no problems with MMLC1 on Switch.

FiXalaS · Jun 4, 2018

This may explain why I had a shit time playing MM1 for the first time

fiendcode · Jun 4, 2018

FiXalaS said:
This may explain why I had a shit time playing MM1 for the first time

That might also be because it's MM1.

Hieroph · Jun 4, 2018

fiendcode said:
That might also be because it's MM1.

MM1 is a good game. It has a couple of design quirks being the first installment of the series but the base gameplay is already great.

It's also a challenging game with some sections that require precise control with minimal lag.

commish · Jun 4, 2018

Input lag, unplayable game. Maybe can return it.

Bladelaw · Jun 4, 2018

It's not unplayable but I definitely had to learn to compensate for it doing a buster only run of MM2. Quick Man's and Heat Man's stages both have parts that require accurate timing and I died a bunch until I figured I need to press jump a couple frames in advance of when I normally do. The Wii Virtual console version had similar lag, but the 3DS version has always worked perfectly for me FWIW.

I'll try turning Turbo off on the Switch version to see if it improves.

fiendcode · Jun 4, 2018

Hieroph said:
MM1 is a good game. It has a couple of design quirks being the first installment of the series but the base gameplay is already great.

It's also a challenging game with some sections that require precise control with minimal lag.

It's not that tough tbh, I already beat it without any issue on this laggy Switch port. Even Gutsman's stage was fine.

Don't buy Mega Man Legacy Collection 1 on Switch. It has bad input lag.

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