Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

PhazonBlonde · Jun 7, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
In the world? Absolutely. It was the anime that did that. In Japan, it was firstly the manga and later the anime for a more general public. And what you quoted is my personal opinion about the quality of the series, not about popularity. I even said on it.

What I said is true. The predominant workers on anime are men and the same is for manga with the exception of the Shoujo and Josei demography. In Shounen/Seinen you'll see many female mangaka but not in the same as male. I'm not saying that the targeting of women and girls don't exist since I was only talking about the people working on there. This absolute exists. Even then, Shoujo/Josei are minor than Shounen/Seinen in sales, popularity, magazines circulation and adaptation of anime by it's publishers so yes, such dedicated demography exists but it's behind others as well. Even more when Shounen and Seinen attract girls and women to them too, with examples like haikyuu and Kuroko no Basket with a big number of girls reading and buying the manga.

And women does such decisions just as bad as men do. Many women work on ecchi, romcom or other type of genres and have many problems be it in design, writing or others when it comes to women in their work. I'm only saying this because I saw many doing it. Like I said, doesn't bother me for most of the time but I'm sure it'll bother many people here.

Ok so stuff with a female demographic doesn't count now? Umm... the point is that that as a genre even exists. We certainly never had it in american comics or animation (outside of disney princess movies I guess).

Also to your point about women drawing porn that's an entirely different genre specifically for one purpose. It's not the same as having sexualized designs in a non porn game or anime. Many women create and consume this type of content; in fact there's an entire popular genre of it aimed entirely at women (yaoi). I should know, I'm one of them (I own some yuri VNs, yaoi yuri and het doujins, and have created fanfics and doujins as well). Having been involved in a lot of that american scene, a ton of artists who do it are women who are passionate about what they make.

Now if you want to argue that all erotica is misogynistic by nature or that women don't enjoy erotica i'll just laugh and bow out of the conversation.

Pablo Mesa · Jun 7, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
There's a not insignificant amount of female mangaka that do good shounen/seinen. Amano, Jinsei, Hayashida Q, Arakawa, Ohtaka, Yana Tobosu, etc. You never see men doing shoujo/josei outside of Mikamoto Rei and a few other people like you see women doing shounen.

shonen is easier to do than love (all ranges, from heartwarming to NRT Bad ending) stories IMO.

OhSatan · Jun 7, 2018

esserius said:
Still feels like Demon's Souls is From Software's most progressive game though.

I may be wrong but Demon has gender exclusive armors.

Deleted member 11413 · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
Ok so stuff with a female demographic doesn't count now? Umm... the point is that that as a genre even exists. We certainly never had it in american comics or animation (outside of disney princess movies I guess).

Also to your point about women drawing porn that's an entirely different genre specifically for one purpose. It's not the same as having sexualized designs in a non porn game or anime. Many women create and consume this type of content; in fact there's an entire popular genre of it aimed entirely at women (yaoi). I should know, I'm one of them (I own some yuri VNs, yaoi yuri and het doujins, and have created fanfics and doujins as well). Having been involved in a lot of that american scene, a ton of artists who do it are women who are passionate about what they make.

Now if you want to argue that all erotica is misogynistic by nature or that women don't enjoy erotica i'll just laugh and bow out of the conversation.

I think they are just pointing out that something can be problematic or misogynistic even if it was created by and consumed by women.

Edit: Reading some of their earlier posts, I'm not exactly sure what point they are trying to make, tbh

Morrigan · Jun 7, 2018

OhSatan said:
I may be wrong but Demon has gender exclusive armors.

That's true. However, it should be pointed out that none of the female-only armours are remotely "sexy". I know... shocking...

PhazonBlonde · Jun 7, 2018

Lord of Ostia said:
I think they are just pointing out that something can be problematic or misogynistic even if it was created by and consumed by women.

Edit: Reading some of their earlier posts, I'm not exactly sure what point they are trying to make, tbh

I don't know either, other than to insist that the anime fandom and industry is some sort of dudebro sausage fest or something. Which.... runs entirely counter to my 20 years in the american fandom (and doujin/fanfic community). I'd totally agree some female written content can be problematic, but when we get into erotica it gets way more complicated. Some would criticize stuff like 50 Shades as problematic, even though a lot of women can have submissive kinks, or even rape play kind of kinks. It's probably easier to just keep erotica out of the discussion since it's kind of OT (this is a thread about sexualized character designs in games and other mainstream media).

Deleted member 5535 · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
Ok so stuff with a female demographic doesn't count now? Umm... the point is that that as a genre even exists. We certainly never had it in american comics or animation (outside of disney princess movies I guess).

Also to your point about women drawing porn that's an entirely different genre specifically for one purpose. It's not the same as having sexualized designs in a non porn game or anime. Many women create and consume this type of content; in fact there's an entire popular genre of it aimed entirely at women (yaoi). I should know, I'm one of them (I own some yuri VNs, yaoi yuri and het doujins, and have created fanfics and doujins as well). Having been involved in a lot of that american scene, a ton of artists who do it are women who are passionate about what they make.

Now if you want to argue that all erotica is misogynistic by nature or that women don't enjoy erotica i'll just laugh and bow out of the conversation.

I didn't said that it didn't count. I said that it's something minor compared to other demography of this industry like Shounen and Seinen in different aspects as an additional point and where most of the mangaka are since there more magazines of said demography.

Where I said something about porn? I never talked about it but ecchi, romcom and different genres, not porn. I never talked about hentai, which plenty women do in doujinshi and official hentai magazines.

And well, I'm about to do the same. I wasn't even going to respond this and just ignore the quote but I was curious.

Lord of Ostia said:
I think they are just pointing out that something can be problematic or misogynistic even if it was created by and consumed by women.

Edit: Reading some of their earlier posts, I'm not exactly sure what point they are trying to make, tbh

It's this. But, also that created by women for men/boys can be as well. The concept of women doing the same things as men exists since they're also influenced by what men are.

PhazonBlonde said:
I don't know either, other than to insist that the anime fandom and industry is some sort of dudebro sausage fest or something. Which.... runs entirely counter to my 20 years in the american fandom (and doujin/fanfic community). I'd totally agree some female written content can be problematic, but when we get into erotica it gets way more complicated. Some would criticize stuff like 50 Shades as problematic, even though a lot of women can have submissive kinks, or even rape play kind of kinks. It's probably easier to just keep erotica out of the discussion since it's kind of OT (this is a thread about sexualized character designs in games and other mainstream media).

You can keep ignoring it but it's the truth. The majority of anime staff is male just like in many industries it also happens. In gaming it's exactly the same. I'm not saying this because I love it, I'm saying this because it's what I see every season in different staff being announced for different animes where women aren't in there for most of the time.

And I never said anything about anime fandom in the west (or in japan) but yes, you'll see more men than women in the internet, with a difference of like 70% between them.

Deleted member 11413 · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
I don't know either, other than to insist that the anime fandom and industry is some sort of dudebro sausage fest or something. Which.... runs entirely counter to my 20 years in the american fandom (and doujin/fanfic community). I'd totally agree some female written content can be problematic, but when we get into erotica it gets way more complicated. Some would criticize stuff like 50 Shades as problematic, even though a lot of women can have submissive kinks, or even rape play kind of kinks. It's probably easier to just keep erotica out of the discussion since it's kind of OT (this is a thread about sexualized character designs in games and other mainstream media).

Right, and erotica or other fictional sexual material is often seen as a 'safe' venue to explore taboos. Basically, the content is intentionally problematic.

I would agree they are largely separate issues, but they blend together in some media, particularly manga, anime, and Japanese games.

PhazonBlonde · Jun 7, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
I didn't said that it didn't count. I said that it's something minor compared to other demography of this industry like Shounen and Seinen in different aspects as an additional point and where most of the mangaka are since there more magazines of said demography.

Where I said something about porn? I never talked about it but ecchi, romcom and different genres, not porn. I never talked about hentai, which plenty women do in doujinshi and official hentai magazines.

And well, I'm about to do the same. I wasn't even going to respond this and just ignore the quote but I was curious.

It's this. But, also that created by women for men/boys can be as well. The concept of women doing the same things as men exists since they're also influenced by what men are.

You can keep ignoring it but it's the truth. The majority of anime staff is male just like in many industries it also happens. In gaming it's exactly the same. I'm not saying this because I love it, I'm saying this because it's what I see every season in different staff being announced for different animes where women aren't in there for most of the time.

And I never said anything about anime fandom in the west (or in japan) but yes, you'll see more men than women in the internet, with a difference of like 70% between them.

Not even talking about the internet. Attend an American anime or comic convention sometime, it's about an even 50/50 split

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lauren...ntions-broke-the-gender-barrier/#7f168a52266a

I have no clue why you're trying to push that narrative. And again, it runs entirely counter to my 20 years in the fandom where I've made ton of other (female) friends though anime and manga fandom. Maybe it was true like 30 years ago, but it certainly isn't now. And to say that the Japanese games industry is also a dudebro sausage fest when stuff like Otome games are an entire genre that sell very well is also being willfully blind to a huge section of the market. You're doing that thing guys do when they say "yeah but video games are still dominated by men because mobile games aren't REAL games."

TBH I would classify ecchi as a genre as erotica, just VERY softcore erotica in the same way that western romance movies are often very softcore erotica.

Deleted member 5535 · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
Not even talking about the internet. Attend an American anime or comic convention sometime, it's about an even 50/50 split

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lauren...ntions-broke-the-gender-barrier/#7f168a52266a

I have no clue why you're trying to push that narrative. And again, it runs entirely counter to my 20 years in the fandom where I've made ton of other (female) friends though anime and manga fandom. Maybe it was true like 30 years ago, but it certainly isn't now. And to say that the Japanese games industry is also a dudebro sausage fest when stuff like Otome games are an entire genre that sell very well is also being willfully blind to a huge section of the market. You're doing that thing guys do when they say "yeah but video games are still dominated by men because mobile games aren't REAL games."

TBH I would classify ecchi as a genre as erotica, just VERY softcore erotica in the same way that western romance movies are often very softcore erotica.

Sigh. You can't comprehend, huh?

I have no clue what the hell YOU'RE' talking about. I talked about the internet. I don't live in US, I couldn't go in there and I couldn't know about it. That's why I never mentioned anything about US or anime fandom in real life. You're the one who keeps mentioning it as if it's something relevant to the matter.

And again, yes, most people that work on japanese gaming industry ARE men just like it's in the west. (I don't know why the hell you're talking about otome games when we're talking about people in the industry). You have to be a complete blind person to not recognize that it's like that. Companies aren't trying to put more women because there's too much women, they're trying because there's many men on the staff. This is a plenty known issue in the gaminh industry and I'm shocked that you insist that it isn't. In the west it's even more when we know that the straight, white men is the majority of it.

PhazonBlonde · Jun 7, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
Sigh. You can't comprehend, huh?

I have no clue what the hell YOU'RE' talking about. I talked about the internet. I don't live in US, I couldn't go in there and I couldn't know about it. That's why I never mentioned anything about US or anime fandom in real life. You're the one who keeps mentioning it as if it's something relevant to the matter.

And again, yes, most people that work on japanese gaming industry ARE men just like it's in the west. (I don't know why the hell you're talking about otome games when we're talking about people in the industry). You have to be a complete blind person to not recognize that it's like that. Companies aren't trying to put more women because there's too much women, they're trying because there's many men on the staff. This is a plenty known issue in the gaminh industry and I'm shocked that you insist that it isn't. In the west it's even more when we know that the straight, white men is the majority of it.

So now otome games aren't part of the gaming industry? I'm not even saying that the majority of creative staff isn't male, but it's really disturbing and annoying that you keep choosing to ignore and downplay the significant women working in the anime and game industry and the fact that we're such a significant part of the fandom (and growing more visible too). Especially when you made a big deal about ignoring the HUGE influence Naoko Takeuchi and CLAMP had on the manga and anime industry.

Deleted member 5535 · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
So now otome games aren't part of the gaming industry? I'm not even saying that the majority of creative staff isn't male, but it's really disturbing and annoying that you keep choosing to ignore and downplay the significant women working in the anime and game industry and the fact that we're such a significant part of the fandom (and growing more visible too).

I'm talking about the general. Otome games are the major part of it? No, they aren't. Not in the West and not even in Japan. They do exist, they have their public, but like I said, in general it's male dominated in the companies.

And no, I'm not trying to downplay anything about the contribution of those women. I'm just saying that in both of those industries, females do exist but they aren't the majority which it's a problem for me as the difference should be way minor than what it is. Right now I would say that it's like 30/70 but it should be at least 40/60. Even if they will make the same mistakes as men in treatment of women, we need more women working on those different industries to give diversity in different aspects (as well as their own competences, of course).

PhazonBlonde · Jun 7, 2018

I agree with your larger point that yes, we do need more women in the industries. I'm just trying to represent that there is enough stuff in japanese games, manga and anime that appeal to women that it's really helped to grow the fandom. I was specifically taking issue with you about CLAMP and Sailor Moon because those creators pretty much are what got me and a lot of women in my generation into anime and manga (if not japanese games as well). I also don't like how you're picking and choosing what constitutes a 'major factor' in industries. A lot of what people consider mainstream itself is from a male perspective.

To explain what I mean... I mostly grew up playing japanese games primarily, stuff like puzzle games, rythm, JRPGs or platformers. I still play those, and a lot of VNs and otome games. And I ignore a lot of FPS or 'dude bro' type games like sports or Call of Duty or shooters. To me, JRPGs and music games are my 'mainstream'.

A lot of 'girly' type games are ignored by the mainstream specifically BECAUSE they appeal to women. Kind of like how a lot of huge milestones in female nerd fandom (like Anne Rice novels, The Hunger Games, or even Sailor Moon) aren't considered much a part of 'mainstream' nerd culture in the way that marvel or star wars is. Or how Transformers is this huge nostalgia thing and Jem and Rainbow Brite aren't (in mainstream nerd culture). A lot of it is that men do not acknowledge these things as important, or even openly attack them as being 'lesser' because they are more female oriented.

Another good example would be Kingdom Hearts. A lot of polls and even Nomura himself has said at this point women make up more than half of the fandom. Yet a lot of 'core gamer' male types write off Kingdom Hearts as being this crazy thing, or might insist it's made for boys (it's neither 'made' for boys or girls).

Deleted member 11413 · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
I agree with your larger point that yes, we do need more women in the industries. I'm just trying to represent that there is enough stuff in japanese games, manga and anime that appeal to women that it's really helped to grow the fandom. I was specifically taking issue with you about CLAMP and Sailor Moon because those creators pretty much are what got me and a lot of women in my generation into anime and manga (if not japanese games as well). I also don't like how you're picking and choosing what constitutes a 'major factor' in industries. A lot of what people consider mainstream itself is from a male perspective.

To explain what I mean... I mostly grew up playing japanese games primarily, stuff like puzzle games, rythm, JRPGs or platformers. I still play those, and a lot of VNs and otome games. And I ignore a lot of FPS or 'dude bro' type games like sports or Call of Duty or shooters. To me, JRPGs and music games are my 'mainstream'.

A lot of 'girly' type games are ignored by the mainstream specifically BECAUSE they appeal to women. Kind of like how a lot of huge milestones in female nerd fandom (like Anne Rice novels, The Hunger Games, or even Sailor Moon) aren't considered much a part of 'mainstream' nerd culture in the way that marvel or star wars is. Or how Transformers is this huge nostalgia thing and Jem and Rainbow Brite aren't (in mainstream nerd culture). A lot of it is that men do not acknowledge these things as important, or even openly attack them as being 'lesser' because they are more female oriented.

Some of this is changing though, even if it is slow. Stuff like Stephen Universe or Star vs. The Forces of Evil are big and have a majority female demographic, plus stuff like Gravity Falls or Adventure Time which are pretty much 50/50. Western cartoons are waaaaay more inclusive and try to appeal to broader demographics than they used to.

In some ways you could say the same for anime, shows aimed at women are more popular than ever (Free, Yuri on Ice, Ancient Magus Bride, Snow White with the Red Hair) and most popular shows have a pretty equal split or at least sizable female fanbase. Plus some of the older stuff is getting remade too (Cardcaptor Sakura, Sailor Moon Crystal, etc.).

That said, stuff like Anne Rice novels, Twilight, Hunger Games, Divergent, etc. are 100% mainstream and influential. It doesn't get much more successful than blockbuster films. Female writers dominate the YA Lit space too, most of the recent YA Lit film adaptations have been written by women (Nicola Yoon's works, Hunger Games series, Divergent series) appeal primarily to the female demographic (John Green stuff, arguably the Maze Runner), or feature a female protagonist (The 5th Wave). They may not be appreciated on this board but this board is not representative of the mainstream and also is heavily skewed towards one demographic (men ages 25-35). People here look down on YA Lit in general, but it's a space with a lot of successful female creators, diverse backgrounds and perspectives, and progressive themes and ideas.

PhazonBlonde · Jun 7, 2018

Lord of Ostia said:
Some of this is changing though, even if it is slow. Stuff like Stephen Universe or Star vs. The Forces of Evil are big and have a majority female demographic, plus stuff like Gravity Falls or Adventure Time which are pretty much 50/50. Western cartoons are waaaaay more inclusive and try to appeal to broader demographics than they used to.

In some ways you could say the same for anime, shows aimed at women are more popular than ever (Free, Yuri on Ice, Ancient Magus Bride, Snow White with the Red Hair) and most popular shows have a pretty equal split or at least sizable female fanbase. Plus some of the older stuff is getting remade too (Cardcaptor Sakura, Sailor Moon Crystal, etc.).

That said, stuff like Anne Rice novels, Twilight, Hunger Games, Divergent, etc. are 100% mainstream and influential. It doesn't get much more successful than blockbuster films. Female writers dominate the YA Lit space too, most of the recent YA Lit film adaptations have been written by women (Nicola Yoon's works, Hunger Games series, Divergent series) appeal primarily to the female demographic (John Green stuff, arguably the Maze Runner), or feature a female protagonist (The 5th Wave). They may not be appreciated on this board but this board is not representative of the mainstream and also is heavily skewed towards one demographic (men ages 25-35). People here look down on YA Lit in general, but it's a space with a lot of successful female creators, diverse backgrounds and perspectives, and progressive themes and ideas.

Thank you, I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say, I can be a little unclear sometimes. Star vs the Forces of Evil is a BIG one, the ratings on that show have been huge, even rivalling the Star Wars Rebels series at points if I remember right. Also yeah, Adventure Time has such a huge female fanbase that I remember my ex's pre-teen nephew refusing to watch Adventure Time because "everyone knows that's a girl show." Yet a lot of the demographic you mentioned (men ages 25-35) ignore stuff like this and go on about how cartoons were better when they were younger.

I'm glad you mention the YA lit space; I'd even go so far to say that fantasy Lit has been really strong with female presence for awhile with writers like Rowling, LeGuin, Clark, Rice and Dianne Wynn Jones. Yet again, these things are kind of ignored by the 'gamer dude' types you mention. Hunger Games being largely ignored by 'nerd culture' has been pretty shocking for me. The books were pretty adult for a YA novel, and were a pretty amazing dystopian sci-fi series with a lot of dark shit in them. At this point, the western gaming industry is WAY behind films, books and animation as far as female representation and inclusion goes.

I guess my larger point is it bothers me when people handwave away that huge, growing section of mainstream nerd culture just because they're not into it themselves. It's like someone saying "most mainstream nerd culture is male dominated." Then you reply with "But what about x, y and z?" Them: "That doesn't count, it's girl stuff."

RalchAC · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
Thank you, I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say, I can be a little unclear sometimes. Star vs the Forces of Evil is a BIG one, the ratings on that show have been huge, even rivalling the Star Wars Rebels series at points if I remember right. Also yeah, Adventure Time has such a huge female fanbase that I remember my ex's pre-teen nephew refusing to watch Adventure Time because "everyone knows that's a girl show." Yet a lot of the demographic you mentioned (men ages 25-35) ignore stuff like this and go on about how cartoons were better when they were younger.

I'm glad you mention the YA lit space; I'd even go so far to say that fantasy Lit has been really strong with female presence for awhile with writers like Rowling, LeGuin, Clark, Rice and Dianne Wynn Jones. Yet again, these things are kind of ignored by the 'gamer dude' types you mention. Hunger Games being largely ignored by 'nerd culture' has been pretty shocking for me. The books were pretty adult for a YA novel, and were a pretty amazing dystopian sci-fi series with a lot of dark shit in them. At this point, the western gaming industry is WAY behind films, books and animation as far as female representation and inclusion goes.

I guess my larger point is it bothers me when people handwave away that huge, growing section of mainstream nerd culture just because they're not into it themselves. It's like someone saying "most mainstream nerd culture is male dominated." Then you reply with "But what about x, y and z?" Them: "That doesn't count, it's girl stuff."

I don't know about other countries, but everyone with a passing interest in YA literature in the late 00s to early 10s was into the Hunger Games. But the films were released at the tail of its popularity, Mockingbird wasn't as good as the previous books and the first movie wasn't good enough to reignite its popularity that much.

PhazonBlonde · Jun 7, 2018

RalchAC said:
I don't know about other countries, but everyone with a passing interest in YA literature in the late 00s to early 10s was into the Hunger Games. But the films were released at the tail of its popularity, Mockingbird wasn't as good as the previous books and the first movie wasn't good enough to reignite its popularity that much.

That's true; I guess I'm wondering why male nerd culture didn't embrace them. Hell, I wonder why Harry Potter is still so looked down upon in mainstream male nerd culture, in comparison to say, SW or Marvel or DC or LotR. I mean, just look at the shit show in this thread: https://www.resetera.com/threads/what-if-online-movie-ratings-weren't-based-almost-entirely-on-what-men-think.27954/ Tons of men freaking out thinking women rated Harry Potter movies higher than stuff like the Dark Knight trilogy.

I guess something larger I'm thinking about now is.... a lot of men rightfully complain about there not being enough women in the industry; sometimes maybe it would help if they didn't ignore the work of the ones already there.

Deleted member 11413 · Jun 7, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
Thank you, I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say, I can be a little unclear sometimes. Star vs the Forces of Evil is a BIG one, the ratings on that show have been huge, even rivalling the Star Wars Rebels series at points if I remember right. Also yeah, Adventure Time has such a huge female fanbase that I remember my ex's pre-teen nephew refusing to watch Adventure Time because "everyone knows that's a girl show." Yet a lot of the demographic you mentioned (men ages 25-35) ignore stuff like this and go on about how cartoons were better when they were younger.

I'm glad you mention the YA lit space; I'd even go so far to say that fantasy Lit has been really strong with female presence for awhile with writers like Rowling, LeGuin, Clark, Rice and Dianne Wynn Jones. Yet again, these things are kind of ignored by the 'gamer dude' types you mention. Hunger Games being largely ignored by 'nerd culture' has been pretty shocking for me. The books were pretty adult for a YA novel, and were a pretty amazing dystopian sci-fi series with a lot of dark shit in them. At this point, the western gaming industry is WAY behind films, books and animation as far as female representation and inclusion goes.

I guess my larger point is it bothers me when people handwave away that huge, growing section of mainstream nerd culture just because they're not into it themselves. It's like someone saying "most mainstream nerd culture is male dominated." Then you reply with "But what about x, y and z?" Them: "That doesn't count, it's girl stuff."

Yup. It's really telling when you see a thread about YA Lit here and people just shit on the entire sphere of works. Same goes for the Romance genre. These are where a lot of female creators (or LGBTQ creators) are, or at least get their start, and this is where a lot of the female audience is. If you want your own media to be more inclusive or appeal to a wider audience, you should look to what women are already creating and enjoying rather than looking down upon it because it doesn't immediately appeal to you or you don't understand it.

Hell, that feeling of not being immediately appealed to and welcomed is the same way many women feel about video games. The difference is that those communities are more inclusive than gaming communities.

Tizoc · Jun 8, 2018

Dead or Alive 6 got revealed recently and...

Hmmm

Choppasmith · Jun 8, 2018

Didn't they try this before and upset a lot of fans?

Deleted member 18021 · Jun 8, 2018

I mean, Helena gonna Helena, but I dig Kasumi's new outfit. The DLC is almost certainly going to be back, but if the main outfits are more like this and I can turn off the DLC, I'm happy.

now just go back in time and delete marie rose from ever existing

ShyMel · Jun 8, 2018

Choppasmith said:
Didn't they try this before and upset a lot of fans?

The promotion for Dead or Alive 5 did feature the "I'm a fighter" marketing which did try to focus more on the women being fighters versus being sexy. Than came the avalanche of DLC featuring dozens of swimsuits, sexy Christmas wrapping, aprons, and much more.

Opa-Pa · Jun 8, 2018

Soul Calibur doubling down on the embarrassing shit in 2018 while DoA of all things is growing up. Surreal.

Xaszatm · Jun 8, 2018

Opa-Pa said:
Soul Calibur doubling down on the embarrassing shit in 2018 while DoA of all things is growing up. Surreal.

They probably know that the DLC will sell a ton of money so are saving those "features" for that. But yes, it is amusing that DoA is more aware of things that Soul Caliber.

RpgN · Jun 8, 2018

Choppasmith said:
Didn't they try this before and upset a lot of fans?

Yup. And DoA5 the base game did achieve that honestly. I felt it had the least amount of fanservice and you can turn the boob physics off. Then came the DLC that ruined all the image they tried to build.

I'm happy they're trying again with DoA6. I don't know if they want to keep the base game without fanservice or also get rid of the fanservice DLC. That last one might be too difficult to pass up for them.

esserius · Jun 8, 2018

Still can't resist giving Helena a boob window in their first DoAVI marketing screenshots though. =/

A Syrian Communist · Jun 8, 2018

esserius said:
Still feels like Demon's Souls is From Software's most progressive game though.

How so? I'm curious.

Dark Souls 3 was pretty good about that kind of thing imo.

Deleted member 5535 · Jun 8, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
I agree with your larger point that yes, we do need more women in the industries. I'm just trying to represent that there is enough stuff in japanese games, manga and anime that appeal to women that it's really helped to grow the fandom. I was specifically taking issue with you about CLAMP and Sailor Moon because those creators pretty much are what got me and a lot of women in my generation into anime and manga (if not japanese games as well). I also don't like how you're picking and choosing what constitutes a 'major factor' in industries. A lot of what people consider mainstream itself is from a male perspective.

To explain what I mean... I mostly grew up playing japanese games primarily, stuff like puzzle games, rythm, JRPGs or platformers. I still play those, and a lot of VNs and otome games. And I ignore a lot of FPS or 'dude bro' type games like sports or Call of Duty or shooters. To me, JRPGs and music games are my 'mainstream'.

A lot of 'girly' type games are ignored by the mainstream specifically BECAUSE they appeal to women. Kind of like how a lot of huge milestones in female nerd fandom (like Anne Rice novels, The Hunger Games, or even Sailor Moon) aren't considered much a part of 'mainstream' nerd culture in the way that marvel or star wars is. Or how Transformers is this huge nostalgia thing and Jem and Rainbow Brite aren't (in mainstream nerd culture). A lot of it is that men do not acknowledge these things as important, or even openly attack them as being 'lesser' because they are more female oriented.

Another good example would be Kingdom Hearts. A lot of polls and even Nomura himself has said at this point women make up more than half of the fandom. Yet a lot of 'core gamer' male types write off Kingdom Hearts as being this crazy thing, or might insist it's made for boys (it's neither 'made' for boys or girls).

I don't disagree that there's enough. In fact, japan is one of the few places where you have products for every audience with different demography in anime/manga/LN/games. What I meant to say is that while those exist, the male oriented are more bigger and that most of it is dominated by men. I didn't meant to say that women don't contribute or that there's no such thing as product for women. It has and I'm glad that it exists since I liked many manga shoujo and Josei and I love Precure. I'm a man but I like plenty of things that are focused on girls because they're pretty good.

yes, I agree with all of your points and I also condemn what you exemplified. But like I said before, I was just trying to explain what is the industry in general for men and women and the difference in popularity between them. In no way I think that women focused works shouldn't exist or they aren't important. There's many things important, popular and influential on this market and after all, I like many things that come from this as well.

And sorry if I was rude before, I regret that I typed it in the way that I did rereading it now.

esserius · Jun 8, 2018

Sami said:
How so? I'm curious.

Dark Souls 3 was pretty good about that kind of thing imo.

See this post: https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...er-designs-read-op.4483/page-321#post-8815200

RpgN · Jun 8, 2018

esserius said:
Still can't resist giving Helena a boob window in their first DoAVI marketing screenshots though. =/

True. I should reword myself better. I'm happy enough with what they have shown not being an embarrassment and not enough to turn me off. I can deal with this if they don't overstep the line too much.

It was really funny watching the trailer. I already made up my mind that it would be full of fanservice. Then when I watched it, I kept waiting for that moment where they show it. It's good to have expectations not met for once XD

SieteBlanco · Jun 8, 2018

The DoA devs clearly mean "turn it into Tekken" instead of being completely free of silly "sexiness".

PhazonBlonde · Jun 8, 2018

Nemesis162 said:
I don't disagree that there's enough. In fact, japan is one of the few places where you have products for every audience with different demography in anime/manga/LN/games. What I meant to say is that while those exist, the male oriented are more bigger and that most of it is dominated by men. I didn't meant to say that women don't contribute or that there's no such thing as product for women. It has and I'm glad that it exists since I liked many manga shoujo and Josei and I love Precure. I'm a man but I like plenty of things that are focused on girls because they're pretty good.

yes, I agree with all of your points and I also condemn what you exemplified. But like I said before, I was just trying to explain what is the industry in general for men and women and the difference in popularity between them. In no way I think that women focused works shouldn't exist or they aren't important. There's many things important, popular and influential on this market and after all, I like many things that come from this as well.

And sorry if I was rude before, I regret that I typed it in the way that I did rereading it now.

I apoligize too for getting a bit heated in the moment of things. Sailor Moon (and to a lesser extent Clamp's stuff) was a huge part of my formative years (and of my friends) so I just wanted to point out the impact that had on a lot of girls growing up in the 90's. But I can see now I agree with what you were saying too. It is male dominated still, but I'm hopeful that with the popularity of certain series the gender gap is closing. As you mentioned though a lot of the industry still employs more men than women, and I think that's a lot up to Japan's gender roles in their culture and stuff, which is a larger issue outside of entertainment even. I'm glad you like some of the 'girl' oriented stuff though, I definately enjoy both shoujo/josei and shounen/seinan stuff myself :) As much as I love Sailor Moon I also love Jojo's Bizarre Adventure!

RedHoodedOwl · Jun 8, 2018

Tizoc said:
Dead or Alive 6 got revealed recently and...

Hmmm

Wow, I didn't expect that.

texhnolyze · Jun 9, 2018

Tizoc said:
Dead or Alive 6 got revealed recently and...

Hmmm

This is a good direction.

ShyMel said:
The promotion for Dead or Alive 5 did feature the "I'm a fighter" marketing which did try to focus more on the women being fighters versus being sexy. Than came the avalanche of DLC featuring dozens of swimsuits, sexy Christmas wrapping, aprons, and much more.

It's still fundamentally different though. No matter what kind of DLCs they're gonna pull out later, the game won't feature the exaggerated breasts physics anymore, and the base outfits (that the majority of people would use) are less revealing.

Azem · Jun 9, 2018

Well, I definitely noticed when I watched the trailer. I started trying to think of reasons why their breasts weren't oscillating wildly. It didn't occur to me that it was deliberate.

Snormy · Jun 9, 2018

texhnolyze said:
This is a good direction.

It's still fundamentally different though. No matter what kind of DLCs they're gonna pull out later, the game won't feature the exaggerated breasts physics anymore, and the base outfits (that the majority of people would use) are less revealing.

I want to believe but like, I'm skeptical obviously. Their track record isn't giving a lot of confidence. However I think more fitting default outfits and casual costumes is already an improvement. I'd like to see some effort in better characterisation too but I doubt we'll get that far.

esserius · Jun 9, 2018

Mephala said:
I want to believe but like, I'm skeptical obviously. Their track record isn't giving a lot of confidence. However I think more fitting default outfits and casual costumes is already an improvement. I'd like to see some effort in better characterisation too but I doubt we'll get that far.

Yeah, will wait to see on any of this until DLC starts getting announced. Wouldn't be surprised if later on they announce a breast physics slider microtransaction or something else ridiculous. Even with what's there, it's still only half-measures at the moment.

Dice · Jun 9, 2018

esserius said:
Yeah, will wait to see on any of this until DLC starts getting announced. Wouldn't be surprised if later on they announce a breast physics slider microtransaction or something else ridiculous. Even with what's there, it's still only half-measures at the moment.

lol I'd love this, they probably could make bank on that xD

Choppasmith · Jun 9, 2018

Opa-Pa said:
Soul Calibur doubling down on the embarrassing shit in 2018 while DoA of all things is growing up. Surreal.

Similarly, I just found the other day that SNK artist Falcoon (who's sorta notoriously pervy in his depiction of women) has... really improved lately.

I mean for reference he's gone from crap like this:

To this recently.

Draws portraits of various characters, mostly SNK but he'll do Capcom, Marvel and others too.

Created SNK's new Twitter mascot, Enta Girl:

Does the art and designs for SNK's "You are the Hero" mobile game:

And I still can't believe he made a better alternate design for Leona that isn't for SNK Heroines

Never thought I'd want him working on a game so badly right now.

Mauricio_Magus · Jun 9, 2018

It actually makes me interested in DoA that they might tone down the "physics", that shit was embarrassing.

Snormy · Jun 10, 2018

I hate that I'm already kind of disappointed with Kasumi's outfit. I mean, yeah, it shows less skin but she has skin tight red/black suit with some light armor-like highlighting all the body bits. It feels like Bikini armor but paint over her skin to trick people. >_> I just... Well, I hope other characters look better. I don't mind Helena though as usual that is hardly an outfit to be fighting in but whatever.

Dem boys look great.

Mesoian · Jun 10, 2018

Tizoc said:
Dead or Alive 6 got revealed recently and...

Hmmm

There was over 700 dollars worth of DLC for DOA5. It was a major revenue stream for Koei Tecmo. They will not be walking away from that.

RpgN · Jun 10, 2018

Mephala said:
I hate that I'm already kind of disappointed with Kasumi's outfit. I mean, yeah, it shows less skin but she has skin tight red/black suit with some light armor-like highlighting all the body bits. It feels like Bikini armor but paint over her skin to trick people. >_> I just... Well, I hope other characters look better. I don't mind Helena though as usual that is hardly an outfit to be fighting in but whatever.

Dem boys look great.

While it's not perfect for the reasons you mentioned, I still thought she looks cool and fitting to the new tone they want to achieve. The boobs also barely move. It made me feel nostalgic to the older games (DoA2 ultimate and DoA3) when those games were more like that with a serious tone, main outfits being acceptable/cool and fanservice outfits less & optional. Funny enough I have more issues with Helena's thighs being the focus.

It's going to be really exciting following news about this game and see what they will do. DoA are some of my favourite games before the craze started after 5. I'm willing to get a next gem console for 6 if they really mean it this time.

Dmax3901 · Jun 10, 2018

Tizoc said:
Dead or Alive 6 got revealed recently and...

Hmmm

But I thought Japan was just different culturally?

Aren't they just more sexually liberated?

Saucycarpdog · Jun 10, 2018

Lord of Ostia said:
That said, stuff like Anne Rice novels, Twilight, Hunger Games, Divergent, etc. are 100% mainstream and influential. It doesn't get much more successful than blockbuster films. Female writers dominate the YA Lit space too, most of the recent YA Lit film adaptations have been written by women (Nicola Yoon's works, Hunger Games series, Divergent series) appeal primarily to the female demographic (John Green stuff, arguably the Maze Runner), or feature a female protagonist (The 5th Wave). They may not be appreciated on this board but this board is not representative of the mainstream and also is heavily skewed towards one demographic (men ages 25-35). People here look down on YA Lit in general, but it's a space with a lot of successful female creators, diverse backgrounds and perspectives, and progressive themes and ideas.

MovieBob touched on this in his Titanic video and Lindsay Ellis in her Dear Stephanie Meyer video. Our culture has collectively looked down on media aimed at women since forever. It's why romantic comedy's, YA novels, boy bands, and even shipping culture are so sneered at.

Bricks · Jun 11, 2018

Some people were referring to her as 'Cindy done right'.

I must say, I really like her, but that has little to do with the sexiness... it's just that if you give a character glasses, I can't not appreciate. Don't know if it could be called a fetish.

Mib · Jun 11, 2018

Bricks said:
Some people were referring to her as 'Cindy done right'.

I must say, I really like her, but that has little to do with the sexiness... it's just that if you give a character glasses, I can't not appreciate. Don't know if it could be called a fetish.

Do people l see her as sexy/attractive because they see her clothes as sexy/attractive, or because her general appearance, body language, attitude, outfit etc. speak to a type of person that people find attractive.

I'm in the second camp. When I look at Cindy I think "sexy mechanic" Halloween outfit, along with most of the baggage that comes with it. When I see Nico(?) I think "she's cool, I'd be down to date someone like that." There's more to the design than just a girl in revealing clothes.

SolidSnakex · Jun 11, 2018

I know many have been interested in what direction Kojima would go in with the female character designs in Death Stranding. Well, we have our answer now

Quite the change compared to MGSV, eh?

Chiggs · Jun 11, 2018

Persephone said:
If you're here to tell us we are wrong, overreacting, or to dismiss our opinions, then please don't bother.

Not sure really what to make of that, but my first reaction was "really!?"

For what it's worth, I enjoyed reading the perspective in the OP and found some of the follow up comments to be insightful. Thanks for sharing.

Crossing Eden · Jun 12, 2018

E3 gets more and more progressive every year. So much so that even Kojima isn't fucking up and pandering anymore.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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