Yoshinori Ono (Capcom) talks about the limited audience of fighting games, what MvC's ambitions were

Nirolak · Nov 13, 2017

Capcom put up an interview with themselves on their investor page explaining why games like Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite might not sell a lot of copies, along with their ambitions for the title. Capcom did not inquire with him as to why other fighting games sell more, or the mobile fighting scene that sometimes sees 40+ million downloads.

Capcom: Tell us about the current situation of the fighting game genre.

Ono: Fighting games have been said to be a "closed market," and compared to the amount of buzz surrounding them, the number of players isn't as high as you would think. The reason for this is that the genre sparks competitiveness: you square off against an opponent and think of how to defeat them. This demands training. You have to put in the time to study the moves and master special techniques in order to win.
Core users who have been honing their skills day in, day out are overwhelmingly strong, so that newcomers don't stand a chance; because of this, the genre becomes a "closed market," only for a certain set of players, which is why compared to other genres it won't see the same explosive growth in users.
However, with the popularity of play videos on YouTube and spectator-friendly eSports competitive gaming events, we're seeing the rise of a new trend where newcomers can be entertained through watching.

Capcom: Given that, what sort of position is MARVEL VS. CAPCOM: INFINITE aiming for? What are your ambitions for this game?

Ono: On this title, we have pursued a satisfying competitive experience for core users, while providing less experienced users with a way to casually enjoy fighting games. We've made it with our continued support of eSports in mind, and moving ahead we eagerly anticipate players from the different segments bringing their enthusiasm and energy both as participants and as spectators. It's the complete package, both for core and casual players; I hope everyone is looking forward to it.

Platy · Nov 13, 2017

CORE fighting games for PRO market is the closest of the closest markets.

They should stop focusing on EVO first and everyone else second

DomsPlaying · Nov 13, 2017

FYI I had posted this previously when I saw it pop up:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ca...ting-game-with-infinite-potential-mvc-i.4739/

Vlaphor · Nov 13, 2017

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want to grow the fighting game market, then you should definitely focus on single player content. MK9 should be the bare minimum these days for how much single player content a fighting game has. Not everyone wants to compete against other pros online.

Zero-ELEC · Nov 13, 2017

while providing less experienced users with a way to casually enjoy fighting games

and gave them nothing to do with these methods of enjoyment

incogneato · Nov 13, 2017

I'm not sure why a fighting game developer can't target the casual market and the hardcore market simultaneously? It worked for Persona 4 Arena, Injustice, and Mortal Kombat.

StallionDan · Nov 13, 2017

Put some more SP content and unlock progression in your games then.

Sheng Long · Nov 13, 2017

Well, MvCI was kind of doomed from the beginning with the roster which we know was Marvel. It's too bad as the game plays wonderfully.

SFV was a bust because of no arcade mode. That's all it really needed.

I just hope they learned (SFV AE seems to rectify the SFV complaints). Marvel is an odd one since it has casual appeal characters but hardcore gameplay.

Garlador · Nov 13, 2017

Any day now...

Jraphics Horse · Nov 13, 2017

Are they considering hosting pay per view events?

Deft Beck · Nov 13, 2017

incogneato said:
I'm not sure why a fighting game developer can't target the casual market and the hardcore market simultaneously? It worked for Persona 4 Arena, Injustice, and Mortal Kombat.

You run the risk of being stuck in the middle; not accessible enough for newbies and not deep enough to keep enthusiasts' attention.

Deleted member 11093 · Nov 13, 2017

Why can't they admit that bad art direction, less than stellar visuals (being generous here with the terms I'm using) and disappointing roster were the reason the game tanked?

It's not rocket science, Capcom. I hope that whatever fighting game they're working on next is as good as SFV visually.

Nirolak · Nov 13, 2017

Deft Beck said:
You run the risk of being stuck in the middle; not accessible enough for newbies and not deep enough to keep enthusiasts' attention.

Well, so far it seems to have been working out better for developers though. Mortal Kombat and Injustice are 5+ million unit series, as is For Honor.

That's before we even get to something like Smash Bros.

RROCKMAN · Nov 13, 2017

incogneato said:
I'm not sure why a fighting game developer can't target the casual market and the hardcore market simultaneously? It worked for Persona 4 Arena, Injustice, and Mortal Kombat.

Im pretty sure those all have expansive story modes lol. I think they tried that with MVCI, but it falls flat. I think it took itself waaay too seriously if you asked me.

Nirolak said:
That's before we even get to something like Smash Bros.

True, Smash has found the balance and has Star power to back it up.

Platy · Nov 13, 2017

incogneato said:
I'm not sure why a fighting game developer can't target the casual market and the hardcore market simultaneously? It worked for Persona 4 Arena, Injustice, and Mortal Kombat.

No it didn't worked for Persona 4 Arena =P

I mean it sold a lot for a fighting game based on a weird jrpg but I would not say it got the casual market

TwoCoins · Nov 13, 2017

I don't believe ONO had nothing to do with MvCI. He seems to be at every reveal, tweeting himself at marvel offices, etc....And everything he's touches seems to turn to crap. Love his goofy antics or what have you, the man imo lacks vision and should let someone else handle fighting games for awhile.

Cinemikel · Nov 13, 2017

Problem is that the FGC has been known to not be very accepting of new things outside of already pre-established gameplay. If it dares to play any different, I don't like it. This prevents growth in the genre for new ideas and audiences and increases stagnation. They're their own worst enemy imo.

Deft Beck · Nov 13, 2017

Nirolak said:
Well, so far it seems to have been working out better for developers though. Mortal Kombat and Injustice are 5+ million unit series, as is For Honor.

That's before we even get to something like Smash Bros.

Mortal Kombat and Injustice both contain characters who are recognizable and nameable by casual Western players; Injustice even more so because of how it is focused on superheroes.

That's the primary reason for their success.

808s & Villainy · Nov 13, 2017

incogneato said:
I'm not sure why a fighting game developer can't target the casual market and the hardcore market simultaneously? It worked for Persona 4 Arena, Injustice, and Mortal Kombat.

Add Tekken to the mix. I think what Capcom is missing is that core fans are enticed by changes to the core fighting system and balance, while more casual or new fans will be enticed by single player content (which will help them learn the mechanics as is a much lower barrier of entry to doing so than online, and is more entertaining than arcade modes). Capcom's been skimping on single player content hardcore, which is especially absurd for a game like MvC as crossover titles are perfect for cool story modes and cutscenes

Nirolak · Nov 13, 2017

TwoCoins said:
I don't believe ONO had nothing to do with MvCI. He seems to be at every reveal, tweeting himself at marvel offices, etc....And everything he's touches seems to turn to crap. Love his goofy antics or what have you, the man imo lacks vision and should let someone else handle fighting games for awhile.

He runs the Capcom business division that releases fighting games.

Neoxon · Nov 13, 2017

Sounds like they're gonna continue supporting MvCI mainly due to the eSports side of things, which is good to hear if that is the case.

PSqueak · Nov 13, 2017

I think fighting games need in general to remind people their nature as party games, im nowhere near competitive skill, yet some of my fondest memories is playing fighting games with friends passing around the controller.

"Party" is not a bad word, and you don't need to be smash bros to be a party fighting game.

Nirolak · Nov 13, 2017

Deft Beck said:
Mortal Kombat and Injustice both contain characters who are recognizable and nameable by casual Western players; Injustice even more so because of how it is focused on superheroes.

That's the primary reason for their success.

Do you feel Marvel vs. Capcom doesn't?

Zero-ELEC · Nov 13, 2017

Nirolak said:
Do you feel Marvel vs. Capcom doesn't?

Nobody knows who Captain America or Spider-Man even are!

Deft Beck · Nov 13, 2017

Nirolak said:
Do you feel Marvel vs. Capcom doesn't?

I don't think that beyond the Marvel side many random people could name a Capcom character.

gundamkyoukai · Nov 13, 2017

The need more SP content to catch the causal market .
Look at MK and Injustice.
Capcom SP content has been half ass this whole gen when it comes to fighting games while everyone else has way more.
I mean for certain SFV could have been bigger than what is right now.

Neoxon · Nov 13, 2017

I'm also curious about how they'll continue to expand the CPT going forward. Were there any interviews pertaining to that, Nirolak?

TwoCoins · Nov 13, 2017

Nirolak said:
He runs the Capcom business division that releases fighting games.

He's also the executive producer and as far i'm concerned, a bad product starts off from the top. He's the guy who pushes ez combos, autoblock gems, ez input, more fan service costumes, etc. He want's to make a games for casuals by trying to make the game play itself...but doesn't invest in better tutorials, more interesting story or single player and arcade mode.

RROCKMAN · Nov 13, 2017

Nirolak said:
Do you feel Marvel vs. Capcom doesn't?

Well, they are missing a large faction of Marvel Characters in this entry. So I guess? The MCU move was terrible on Marvel's part.

Deleted member 11093 · Nov 13, 2017

Neoxon said:
Sounds like they're gonna continue supporting MvCI mainly due to the eSports side of things, which is good to hear if that is the case.

I wonder how much do they earn from e-sports? People swore that SFV wouldn't get past season 1 and here we are in 2017 with season 3 is right around the corner, along with an overhaul re-release/free update, and a shit ton of DLC stages and costumes despite the fact that the game hasn't met its sales target yet.

TreeMePls · Nov 13, 2017

incogneato said:
I'm not sure why a fighting game developer can't target the casual market and the hardcore market simultaneously? It worked for Persona 4 Arena, Injustice, and Mortal Kombat.

You run the risk of making a game neither side likes. IE its -still- too hard for the casual market to care while also being too easy and lacking in depth for the people who put years into playing a game

SinCityAssassin · Nov 13, 2017

Deft Beck said:
I don't think that beyond the Marvel side many random people could name a Capcom character.

Wouldn't that be the reason why they'd lead he marketing campaign with Ryu and Megaman X?

RedSwirl · Nov 13, 2017

From what I heard Dragon Ball is aiming to be a big more accessible, at least compared to other ArcSys games, which is smart considering the potential mass market appeal of that game.

Though, I think at some point there needs to be a big attempt at an F2P fighter on PC. Something that really goes after the LoL and DOTA model.

It's also arguable though that those games, and Overwatch, already contain what a lot of the mainstream audience enjoyed about fighting games in the first place -- the characters.

Deleted member 11093 · Nov 13, 2017

RedSwirl said:
From what I heard Dragon Ball is aiming to be a big more accessible, at least compared to other ArcSys games, which is smart considering the potential mass market appeal of that game.

Though, I think at some point there needs to be a big attempt at an F2P fighter on PC. Something that really goes after the LoL and DOTA model.

It's also arguable though that those games, and Overwatch, already contain what a lot of the mainstream audience enjoyed about fighting games in the first place -- the characters.

Killer Instinct did that.

Nirolak · Nov 13, 2017

Neoxon said:
I'm also curious about how they'll continue to expand the CPT going forward. Were there any interviews pertaining to that, Nirolak?

Sort of: http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/feature/2017_esports/index.html

Neoxon · Nov 13, 2017

TheEnd said:
I wonder how much do they earn from e-sports? People swore that SFV wouldn't get past season 1 and here we are in 2017 with season 3 is right around the corner, along with an overhaul re-release/free update, and a shit ton of DLC stages and costumes despite the fact that the game hasn't met its sales target yet.

I guess you can thank good DLC sales in terms of attach rate for that.

808s & Villainy · Nov 13, 2017

Deft Beck said:
I don't think that beyond the Marvel side many random people could name a Capcom character.

Injustice vs MvC:I are basically a tie. I don't think anyone can make the argument whether people are more familiar with Marvel vs DC, although it probably leans to Marvel if anything.
As far as MK vs Capcom's characters, I doubt many people know anyone outside a few of the core MK1 characters and they're probably on the same level as the core SF2 characters

Basically the assertion that Lui Kang/Sonya/Johnny Cage/Raiden/Sub Zero/Scorpion are better known than Ryu/Ken/Chun Li/Akuma/Bison is pretty hard to make, even factoring in the MK movies

Mass_Pincup · Nov 13, 2017

The market isn't closed, it's your viewpoint that makes it that way.

You're making a fighting game first and foremost for the EVO crowd, that in and of itself is limitating your target audience. Capcom is basically the only big fighting game publisher in that situation, Namco Bandai is having success with thier Xenoverse franchise, people are extremely excited at the prospect for Fighter Z, the Storm franchise was a resounding success and Tekken 7 already sold more than 2 million units. Netherrealm Studio is consistently selling extremely well with Injustice and Mortal Kombat.

What all of those have in common is that they cater to a broader audience with detailed visuals, meaty single player content and they favor pick up and play.

Ono's statement is perfectly encapsulating the problem:

The reason for this is that the genre sparks competitiveness: you square off against an opponent and think of how to defeat them. This demands training. You have to put in the time to study the moves and master special techniques in order to win.

Not everyone wants to train and study the moves and master them. There's a sizable audience who just want to either play with their friends or against the AI. This competitive mindset is clearly wrking against Capcom and I hope they alter the way they tackle making a fighting game.

Ragnarok Flames · Nov 13, 2017

Platy said:
CORE fighting games for PRO market is the closest of the closest markets.

They should stop focusing on EVO first and everyone else second

no

LiK · Nov 13, 2017

Please work on high quality story modes. So far SFV and MvCI's story modes are awful. If you check out Injustice 2 or even most of ArcSystemworks and most recently Tekken 7's story modes, they put a ton of work into them for players who aren't competitive and have any interest in online. You need to give people a hook that is more than just the competitive aspect. Also, more solo modes in general.

Neoxon · Nov 13, 2017

Nirolak said:
Sort of: http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/feature/2017_esports/index.html

Looks like they're expecting major esports growth by 2020, which is supposed to be when SFV support ends.

LiK said:
Please work on high quality story modes. So far SFV and MvCI's story modes are awful. If you check out Injustice 2 or even most of ArcSystemworks and most recently Tekken 7's story modes, they put a ton of work into them for players who aren't competitive and have any interest in online. You need to give people a hook that is more than just the competitive aspect. Also, more solo modes in general.

Injustice 2's is solid, but I'm not sure if I'd say that Tekken 7's story is on that level. I say this as someone who likes Tekken 7 way more than Injustice 2.

Chindogg · Nov 13, 2017

Cinemikel said:
Problem is that the FGC has been known to not be very accepting of new things outside of already pre-established gameplay. If it dares to play any different, I don't like it. This prevents growth in the genre for new ideas and audiences and increases stagnation. They're their own worst enemy imo.

In the past year alone we've had tournaments for Smash Bros, Killer Instinct, SFV, MvCI, Tekken 7, Skullgirls, Guilty Gear Xrd, BlazBlue, Gundam Versus, Brawlhalla, and even DBFZ exhibitions. All of these games have vastly different play mechanics from each other so saying that the FGC isn't very accepting of new things outside of pre-established gameplay is actually insulting.

Deft Beck · Nov 13, 2017

SinCItyAssassin said:
Wouldn't that be the reason why they'd lead he marketing campaign with Ryu and Megaman X?

Regardless of how iconic they are, they were both prominent in MvC3. I figure that the main audience for MvC is people who've played the previous ones and will automatically buy it.

LiK said:
Please work on high quality story modes. So far SFV and MvCI's story modes are awful. If you check out Injustice 2 or even most of ArcSystemworks and most recently Tekken 7's story modes, they put a ton of work into them for players who aren't competitive and have any interest in online. You need to give people a hook that is more than just the competitive aspect. Also, more solo modes in general.

The issue with focusing on single-player modes is that you can't very easily monetize that. MK had the Koins system which could be boosted with microtransactions, so at least WB is trying.

Shroki · Nov 13, 2017

Platy said:
CORE fighting games for PRO market is the closest of the closest markets.

They should stop focusing on EVO first and everyone else second

Both SFV and Marvel were dumbed down or else simplified for non-competitive audiences.

What they really need to do is pick a side. You can't develop a game to be accessible, charge $60 for it and market it via PSX and Sony's E3 AND have it be bereft of features and SP content.

Personally, I'd rather they go the other way. FTP with paid DLC, heavy competitive focus. Lower budget, living game.

Strangelove_77 · Nov 13, 2017

I feel like Capcom only competes with itself and doesn't even try to learn anything from other fighting games. It's a rude awakening to know that gamers do compare games. Every time someone picks up Injustice 2 or Tekken 7 over MvCI or SF5 should be taken more seriously by them. There's something there that you're not offering that other games are and you need to figure it out.
And you know what's frustrating? I love the Vs. games. Outside of Darkstalkers it's my favorite fighting series, it's my favorite type of gameplay, but I'm not touching Infinite til it's $20 or less. It's so halfassed that I feel that's what they deserve. They need to know there's more to games than gameplay. A lot more.
In a perfect world we'd have MvCI with Xmen and Netherealm and Arcsys content and production value.

Jessmo24 · Nov 13, 2017

The irony is that if MVCI was a switch launch game then sales targets would likely be met, and we would not even have this conservation.

TwoCoins · Nov 13, 2017

RedSwirl said:
From what I heard Dragon Ball is aiming to be a big more accessible, at least compared to other ArcSys games, which is smart considering the potential mass market appeal of that game.

Though, I think at some point there needs to be a big attempt at an F2P fighter on PC. Something that really goes after the LoL and DOTA model.

It's also arguable though that those games, and Overwatch, already contain what a lot of the mainstream audience enjoyed about fighting games in the first place -- the characters.

Another gripe, my issue with Ono supposedly a fan of Overwatch, but the females get way more costumes than the guys, and they new females get sluttier and sluttier every year....but Overwatch has barely any "fan service" sans Widow (which fits her design and is still pretty tame compared to any fanservice in most japanese game or Street Fighter) And people love the characters not because of how smutty they look, but how well designed they are. From Tracer Mei, Pharah, Ana, Zarya you already have such a wide variety in females from size, shape and age. And yet are more recognizable than anyone of the females from Street Fighter that isn't name Cammy or Chun li. And don't need double D breasts and a thong to achieve that.

Xaszatm · Nov 13, 2017

Chindogg said:
In the past year alone we've had tournaments for Smash Bros, Killer Instinct, SFV, MvCI, Tekken 7, Skullgirls, Guilty Gear Xrd, BlazBlue, Gundam Versus, Brawlhalla, and even DBFZ exhibitions. All of these games have vastly different play mechanics from each other so saying that the FGC isn't very accepting of new things outside of pre-established gameplay is actually insulting.

I mean, given how negatively people still treat Smash, I'd say the person still has a point. If it is a side-game, then we don't mind, but no, we can be rather closed-minded.

Gestault · Nov 13, 2017

I really can't deny how much the art-style (or maybe just art execution) influenced my reaction to the new MvC, which SHOULD have been a "done deal" in terms of my purchase. The current-gen re-release for UMvC3 absolutely murdered my interest in MvCI by contrast.

Shroki · Nov 13, 2017

Xaszatm said:
I mean, given how negatively people still treat Smash, I'd say the person still has a point. If it is a side-game, then we don't mind, but no, we can be rather closed-minded.

How the classic FGC treats Smash is night and day different from how they did 5 years ago.

There are always going to be haters in any community. Nobody is exempt from that.

Yoshinori Ono (Capcom) talks about the limited audience of fighting games, what MvC's ambitions were

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