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Mathieran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,867
The neonatologist was right. There WAS nothing wrong with the baby. It's just that I'm sure Mrs. Putnam probably leaves her in the crib day and night and never holds her or shows her any attention at all beyond the occasional walk to show her off as a status symbol. The rest of the time she's probably abandoned, and it was just a "failure to thrive" thing.

This seems on point. They've been mentioning in passing for a while now that she complains all the time and doesn't really seem to care about the baby, so they've probably be something they've been setting up for a while.

I'm interested to see where this story goes though. If Gilead was run by reasonable people they might reconsider how things are done, but it's not so something shitty will probably happen instead.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
This seems on point. They've been mentioning in passing for a while now that she complains all the time and doesn't really seem to care about the baby, so they've probably be something they've been setting up for a while.

I'm interested to see where this story goes though. If Gilead was run by reasonable people they might reconsider how things are done, but it's not so something shitty will probably happen instead.
Maybe there is a medical explanation but the doctor refused to say anything since it would implicate the Putnams who were of higher standing in Gilead. The term "failure to thrive" has been bounced around in some of the reviews I've read. I wonder if this will bode poorly for baby Charlotte somewhere down the line.

Speaking of infants, I wonder where the writers will go with June's child as a plot device. Keeping the child away from the Waterfords would be the logical plot course, but then June can't be able to have the child either. How can the writers have the child spirited out of Gilead to safety, keep June in Gilead, and immune from retribution if you're a writer?
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
I've always seen Serena as a woman that deeply regret what happened with Gilead. But since she was instrumental in it's inception, she tries to keep face and that's why she often snaps and revert to a bitch
each time she starts to become nice.

I've seen this behavior with some people in real life. They know they are in the wrong but utterly refuse to admit it and become enraged each time they almost let go of their old convictions. To me Serena is like that.

And given this weeks episode, i think it's likely that she might help June escape at some point after the baby's birth. Out of regret and probably also as a revenge against Fred.


We'll see how it turns out but i often felt it would pan that way in season 1 and even more this season.

I don't believe she's redeemable at all the way that she's conducted herself in the series. The only sincere, redeeming quality that she has is an abiding concern for children. But she's petty enough to threaten June's daughter in order to leverage obedience out of her. She's distraught after the lashing because she realizes that she's in a prison of her own making. But the beating she took caused more psychological harm than physical pain. Expect a brewing rivalry between Serena and her husband from this point forward. This isn't a Vader/Palpatine pairing with redemption at the end of the tunnel. I would liken it more on the lines of Megatron/Starscream. And I believe that because June herself is more an intellectual force of nature on this show that Serena functions better as her darker half than Commander Fred and Aunt Lydia.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,582
Racoon City
Just started watching this and....whew this is a heavy show. I gotta hug my niece after each episode and call my female friends to see if their accounts still work and their bosses haven't "let them go."
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I've always seen Serena as a woman that deeply regret what happened with Gilead. But since she was instrumental in it's inception, she tries to keep face and that's why she often snaps and revert to a bitch
each time she starts to become nice.

I've seen this behavior with some people in real life. They know they are in the wrong but utterly refuse to admit it and become enraged each time they almost let go of their old convictions. To me Serena is like that.

And given this weeks episode, i think it's likely that she might help June escape at some point after the baby's birth. Out of regret and probably also as a revenge against Fred.


We'll see how it turns out but i often felt it would pan that way in season 1 and even more this season.
Serena's baby lust overrides everything else for her. It doesn't matter how fucked up things get, she wants her goddamn baby. It's her core motivation as a character and will undermine everything else she does.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
Just started watching this and....whew this is a heavy show. I gotta hug my niece after each episode and call my female friends to see if their accounts still work and their bosses haven't "let them go."
I always have a deep singing sick feeling in my stomach, every episode i watch of this bloody show.
I feel so bad for Serena, cries.
Don't feel bad for someone that helps her husband rape another woman once a month.

Serena is a founder of Gilead, and should be lined up and shot with her fellow founders.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,696
I've always seen Serena as a woman that deeply regret what happened with Gilead. But since she was instrumental in it's inception, she tries to keep face and that's why she often snaps and revert to a bitch
each time she starts to become nice.

I've seen this behavior with some people in real life. They know they are in the wrong but utterly refuse to admit it and become enraged each time they almost let go of their old convictions. To me Serena is like that.


People get too far into a wrong situation, and pride stops them from holding their hands up and turning around even though they're screaming inside for someone to hand them an easy way out.

This is Serena Joy's arc.
 

Chumley

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,651
I always have a deep singing sick feeling in my stomach, every episode i watch of this bloody show.

Don't feel bad for someone that helps her husband rape another woman once a month.

Serena is a founder of Gilead, and should be lined up and shot with her fellow founders.

Seriously. I don't care how many moments of her crying or her in flashbacks they show, she still needs to die.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,122
I was expecting Luke to break through security and put hands on Fred LOL

Also we're getting close to that Aunt Lydia backstory! June outchea getting RPG party members
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
People get too far into a wrong situation, and pride stops them from holding their hands up and turning around even though they're screaming inside for someone to hand them an easy way out.

This is Serena Joy's arc.

Yeah, I got that sense too when she tossed the box of matches into the fire place after returning home. Really, the one sign I got in this episode that she hasn't changed -- that she can not fundamentally change -- was when she flatly tells June that she is to be sent away once she gives birth. She's not to be afforded the needed protocol of allowing her to properly nurse her child before having to give it away. She's basically being told that she'll literally be ripped away from her newborn upon giving birth.

There are plenty of Serena Joys who operate among us today, who would gladly hold down their own for their own advancement, and would continue doing so even if they knew how destructive they were being.
 
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Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
Yeah, this usually isn't a show that makes me laugh out loud, but holy shit that did. So good.
Co-sign!

Her getting the itinerary and looking at it would be great gif material.

Also, seems like they're setting up a showdown about Offred staying in the house-- Janine's mother love bringing her baby back to health felt very much like future story work for Offred and the other Handmaids.
 

Jules

Member
Oct 27, 2017
86
I enjoyed every single second of Serena being put in her place! I don't have an ounce of sympathy for her. And that itenerary was GENIUS.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
There are plenty of Serena Joys who operate among us today, who would gladly hold down their own for their own advancement, and would continue doing so even if they knew how destructive they were being.
Serena doesn't behave they way she does for her own advancement, she's a true believer. Which makes her the worst kind of scum.
 

Chumley

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,651
I'm fucking done with the time spent trying to humanize Serena and any of the murders and rapists in Gilead, including Lydia. The inevitable destruction of Gilead needs to come ASAP, I'm tired of the repetitious pointless misery.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
Serena doesn't behave they way she does for her own advancement, she's a true believer. Which makes her the worst kind of scum.

Agreed. There were numerous opportunities in this episode for her to do what was right for her own personal dignity, if for no other reason. It wouldn't have morally absolved her for her role in propping up Gilead in the first place, but it would be an acknowledgment on her part of the brutality and moral vacuousness of that regime. A few moments stood out for me in this episode.

-- She informs June of her intentions to have her removed from the house once she has the child, despite knowing how necessary the first few weeks are to infant development. She was willing to navigate through Gilead's bureaucratic infrastructure to have Janine's child treated by a pediatrician, so she would probably know that removing June would be counterproductive to the health of her child. I can only assume that she is doing this because of what June represents to her. She knows her to be smart, ambitious, and probably is aware in the back of her mind that June desires to be free. So for her, it represents a clear and present threat to her mental state of mind.

-- Her tour through Toronto, with all of its bustling and activity, and with people engaging in all sorts of non-regimented, non-parochial activity was no doubt jarring to her, as was the cold greeting from Gileadean refugees and their Canadian allies. The exchange between her husband, and Luke, andthe look on her face when she glances at the giant family portrait emblazoned on the placard that Luke is carrying hammers home the fact that she knows what she has done. She can no longer simply hand wave that fact away, nor can Fred. They were both clearly shaken and out of their element.

-- I couldn't help but notice the irony in the plot of this episode as it related to Serena being pressured to accompany her husband to Canada when she clearly didn't want to. She was made to put on a show, to prove to the Canadian government that she was a strong, independent woman, satisfied with living under Gilead rule. It's perfectly understandable why she didn't want to be with her husband after the beating she was made to endure. But for Fred, his reasons were equally telling. He was making her accompany him so that he could keep a tight rein over her after she had gone over his head in the previous episode. Her being handed an itinerary composed of illustrations only further punctuates the fact that her life is being micromanaged by both her husband and the regime she helped create.

-- This episode had striking parallels to season 1's "A Woman's Place" in which June is pressured to lie on behalf of Gilead to the visiting Mexican ambassadors under threat of severe punishment. Here, Serena is essentially forced to do the same for her husband. Also, A Woman's Place ends with June being informed by one of the Mexican ambassadors that her husband is alive. This episode ends with her receiving news from Nick that her husband is alive and living in Little America with Moira.

-- Her conversation with the American government official at the bar named Mark. She's offered the chance to defect from Gilead, that recent advances in medical science could allow her to have a child of her own. She rejects this and tells him that she has a child waiting at home for her, to which Mark replies, "That's not your child."

-- The contemptuous reception she receives from civilians she comes into contact, not to mention the female Canadian official who whispers in her ear, "It's pathetic what you've allowed them to do to you."

These things probably play a role in shaping her decision to remain in Gilead, because when it's all said and done, she is still technically in a higher societal stratum than any free woman living in Canada or anywhere outside of Gilead. She won't be able to give that up. It's hard to believe that there are people in the world who would rather burn alive in a faulty house that they either built themselves, or put their faith into rather than own up to their mistakes. That's Serena, because now, she can't deny what she's created and the misery that it's wrought upon others.
 
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Chumley

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,651
These things probably play a role in shaping her decision to remain in Gilead, because when it's all said and done, she is still technically in a higher societal stratum than any free woman living in Canada or anywhere outside of Gilead. She won't be able to give that up. It's hard to believe that there are people in the world who would rather burn alive in a faulty house that they either built themselves, or put their faith into rather than own up to their mistakes. That's Serena, because now, she can't deny what she's created and the misery that it's wrought upon others.

This is exactly it. Serena is one of those mothers in Hitler's bunker during the final days who will kill every one of her loved ones and then herself before its over. She knows she fucked up and that her life now is utter pain and misery, but she's completely responsible for it and knows there's no going back. She would be less than pondscum outside Gilead, her only choice is to survive in this hell she's created as long as she can before she either kills herself or is killed.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
This is exactly it. Serena is one of those mothers in Hitler's bunker during the final days who will kill every one of her loved ones and then herself before its over. She knows she fucked up and that her life now is utter pain and misery, but she's completely responsible for it and knows there's no going back. She would be less than pondscum outside Gilead, her only choice is to survive in this hell she's created as long as she can before she either kills herself or is killed.

I think long term she's headed on a collision course with her husband. Fred is a venal psychopath, but I don't think he's June's equal the way that Serena has been these past 2 seasons. She clearly is the smarter of the two, in my opinion, and if there was the idea of bumping off one of those characters, I feel that they could get more mileage out of a June/Serena feud, as she is more themetically linked to Gilead than her husband.
 

Chumley

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,651
I think long term she's headed on a collision course with her husband. Fred is a venal psychopath, but I don't think he's June's equal the way that Serena has been these past 2 seasons. She clearly is the smarter of the two, in my opinion, and if there was the idea of bumping off one of those characters, I feel that they could get more mileage out of a June/Serena feud, as she is more themetically linked to Gilead than her husband.

Yeah, they have nothing left to do with Fred, I wouldn't be surprised if he dies or is otherwise written off before the end of the season. Like you said, a venal psychopath. He's probably self aware that every word out of his mouth is bullshit, but he doesn't care because he gets off on it. I think June will find some way to use him again and then he's done.

I also don't see the cycle of June's misery being sustainable going into Season 3. I didn't even think it would be sustainable in Season 2, but this shit has definitely run its course now in the home stretch.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
Yeah, they have nothing left to do with Fred, I wouldn't be surprised if he dies or is otherwise written off before the end of the season. Like you said, a venal psychopath. He's probably self aware that every word out of his mouth is bullshit, but he doesn't care because he gets off on it. I think June will find some way to use him again and then he's done.

There's still more ground worth covering with Fred. I just think that long term, he's more of an advesary to Serena than he is to June. He's still an advesary to June, but I think he has weightier conflict with Serena down the line. If you compare Fred and Serena, he seems more of a banal, empty vessel compared to his wife. The show has never really explained if there's an executive prime minister, so you're pretty much left with having to figure out which of the main 3 villains best represent the heart and soul of Gilead itself. And of the 3, I always in the pit of my stomach felt that it's been Serena. June doesn't have to be the one to topple Gilead in the end, but the show's main conflict should be bookended with June confronting Serena and bringing her down once and for all. And if the show runners can play their cards right, have her defeat occur in tandem with Gilead's fall as a backdrop.
 

McMahon

Banned
May 24, 2018
1,603
Los Angeles
I rage at the real world and current circumstances and I rage when I watch this show. I don't know how much more I can take watching this.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
I found a new trailer for the upcoming episode, "Final Ceremony" on Facebook. It has Israeli subtitles, but is spoken in english. These trailers tend to be more spoilerish, so beware. The link below leads to a reddit page. Click on the facebook link to access the trailer.

Facebook trailer

Also, someone uploaded a full scene from the episode.

Final Ceremony -- 6:00

Here's the original trailer released by Hulu a couple of days ago.

official Hulu trailer
 
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Killthee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,169
I found a new trailer for the upcoming episode, "Final Ceremony" on Facebook. It has Israeli subtitles, but is spoken in english. These trailers tend to be more spoilerish, so beware. The link below leads to a reddit page. Click on the facebook link to access the trailer.

Facebook trailer

Also, someone uploaded a full scene from the episode.

Final Ceremony -- 6:00

Here's the original trailer released by Hulu a couple of days ago.

official Hulu trailer
Oh shit.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I found a new trailer for the upcoming episode, "Final Ceremony" on Facebook. It has Israeli subtitles, but is spoken in english. These trailers tend to be more spoilerish, so beware. The link below leads to a reddit page. Click on the facebook link to access the trailer.

Facebook trailer

Also, someone uploaded a full scene from the episode.

Final Ceremony -- 6:00

Here's the original trailer released by Hulu a couple of days ago.

official Hulu trailer
Scum, absolute scum.
 
OP
OP
브라이언

브라이언

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,170
I found a new trailer for the upcoming episode, "Final Ceremony" on Facebook. It has Israeli subtitles, but is spoken in english. These trailers tend to be more spoilerish, so beware. The link below leads to a reddit page. Click on the facebook link to access the trailer.

Facebook trailer

Also, someone uploaded a full scene from the episode.

Final Ceremony -- 6:00

Here's the original trailer released by Hulu a couple of days ago.

official Hulu trailer
Fuck... the Israel trailer fuck...
I retract my statement, Serena can die in a hole.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,987
I'm a few episodes behind but yeah, Serena deserves to rot in hell for everything she's put the handmaids and June through.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
And being one of the founders of Gilead. Never forget that.

Never indeed. She's arguably the worst of the pack. She knows what she's doing is wrong now, or at least she can't pretend that she didn't know better. Assuming that June does give birth next episode, it'll be interesting to see what happens in the final 3 episodes. I fundamentally can't believe that the writers would have the child falling into the hands of the Waterfords.

The writers look like they've laid seeds to some important foreshadowing with June's conversation with Aunt Lydia last episode. I honestly don't think the Waterfords will be punished by Gilead laws, demonstrating the power and influence they wield, but I do think that they could be denied the right to June's child, thereby prolonging this stalemate.

I think that, themetically speaking, the Waterfords can't be permitted by the writers to have June's child, at least if the central tenet of the show is June asserting her own agency
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,987
She tells June with Pride that she will be a good mother. June then asks through tears if she can just see Hannah. Serena not only refuses to let her but then punishes June for even asking.

She has no ability to be empathic towards other women-so she in no way will possibly be a good mother. She's rotting from the inside out.

Also that scene where Fred has that man and his wife in the woods and shoots the wife in the head? Fuck them. I'm in this all the way to see them suffer in the end.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
She tells June with Pride that she will be a good mother. June then asks through tears if she can just see Hannah. Serena not only refuses to let her but then punishes June for even asking.

She has no ability to be empathic towards other women-so she in no way will possibly be a good mother. She's rotting from the inside out.

Also that scene where Fred has that man and his wife in the woods and shoots the wife in the head? Fuck them. I'm in this all the way to see them suffer in the end.
I'm curious how the fallout from Canada is going to affect his state of mind.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,738
Oh my god, I loved that episode. Beautiful stuff, if that makes sense.

"All you've offered me so far is coconuts and treason." omg!
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,738
Also we're getting close to that Aunt Lydia backstory! June outchea getting RPG party members

Yeah, what was that about? 'It wasn't my fault' ... a creepy hint at malicious involvement, or a sympathetic hint at tragic involvement? I guess the latter given the way they played it with the music etc. I guess they have to flashback to that now.

The writers look like they've laid seeds to some important foreshadowing with June's conversation with Aunt Lydia last episode. I honestly don't think the Waterfords will be punished by Gilead laws, demonstrating the power and influence they wield, but I do think that they could be denied the right to June's child, thereby prolonging this stalemate.

I think that, themetically speaking, the Waterfords can't be permitted by the writers to have June's child, at least if the central tenet of the show is June asserting her own agency

I'm not sure how that could happen by the hand of Gilead law though... have the Waterford's done anything outside of Gilead law that could affect Serena, at least, keeping the baby? June expresses fear to Lydia about Waterford's capability to hurt the child given that he has harmed his wife, but when he punished Serena, it was sanctioned so to speak.

Or maybe I'm forgetting something. I know Waterford has been to Jezebels etc. I know June has dirt on him in that respect...but I'm not sure that would be enough, even if Gilead authorities listened to a handmaid. Which they probably wouldn't.

Of course another Commander could set them up, or stitch them up, in the way Serena dealt with Price. That could see them taken out of the picture... but in any of those kinds of scenarios, involving Gilead law doing something, I'm not sure how it would keep June united with her baby, at least past weaning.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
Yeah, what was that about? 'It wasn't my fault' ... a creepy hint at malicious involvement, or a sympathetic hint at tragic involvement? I guess the latter given the way they played it with the music etc. I guess they have to flashback to that now.



I'm not sure how that could happen by the hand of Gilead law though... have the Waterford's done anything outside of Gilead law that could affect Serena, at least, keeping the baby? June expresses fear to Lydia about Waterford's capability to hurt the child given that he has harmed his wife, but when he punished Serena, it was sanctioned so to speak.

Or maybe I'm forgetting something. I know Waterford has been to Jezebels etc. I know June has dirt on him in that respect...but I'm not sure that would be enough, even if Gilead authorities listened to a handmaid. Which they probably wouldn't.

Of course another Commander could set them up, or stitch them up, in the way Serena dealt with Price. That could see them taken out of the picture... but in any of those kinds of scenarios, involving Gilead law doing something, I'm not sure how it would keep June united with her baby, at least past weaning.

She doesn't have to be reunited with the baby in the short term. In fact, neither she or Serena will have the baby, as it's that unattainable McGuffin device to fight over. But there is the chance that someone spirits the child off to Canada, thereby denying Serena of that child entirely, but also denying June of her child while she's stuck in Gilead.

I just think that on a themetic level, the story can't allow for Serena to have June's child as the end game. The closing monologue is of June saying: Moira was Hannah's godmother... Is... Moira is Hannah's godmother. That could be some nice foreshadowing into following season. It would also potentially bring June's daughter, Hannah into the fore. Serena tries to force obedience from June by threatening Hannah if she's denied the child that she's carrying. That shadow's been looming over June all this season, and it will be interesting to see how that pays off this season or in the next one.

It's also worth pointing out that in these 2 seasons of the show have been spent exploring the brutality and arbitrary nature of Gilead's laws. We haven't really seen how corrupt they are and how they can be bent to certain individuals who happen to have clout. I expect the Waterfords to somehow be able to sidestep any of the punishment that people like Janine, Warren Putnam, and others have suffered for breaking their laws.

Somebody on another Handmaid's Tale thread pointed out that on an underlying level, that there's an awareness that Gilead's moral laws were shallow and corrupt to begin with. And this definitely bears out when you consider that the man who was executed in the pilot episode was done so for doing essentially the same thing as the commanders.
 
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