New Research Shows a Vast Majority of Cis People Won't Date Trans People

pinkurocket · Jun 21, 2018

Dating doesn't just mean having sex. If you feel attracted to a person and they say they're trans, it might be a dealbreaker because you know you can't advance the relationship in the way you want OR, at this point you've realised how much you love this person and you're willing to make it work. So many discussions on this topic will condense it down to the genitalia, but I think those are missing some steps. Sex is also called 'making love' for a reason and if you really love a person, it can be intense and great even if the body isn't exactly what you feel attracted too. Again, you have to look at the big picture of actually falling in love with a person and then taking the next steps in the relationship. Simply flat out denying dating a trans person because "not being into the genitalia" definitely sounds to me like being close-minded.

IceBringer · Jun 21, 2018

GenericVillainName said:
It looks like its bannable if you rule out dating a person who is trans

You seriously think that's the reason they were banned? Wtf

Visanideth · Jun 21, 2018

Aang's_Bae said:
Don't leave us waiting.

The first post is definitely problematic, as "opposite sex" implies something wrong.

The second feels like stretching. A pre-op trans woman has the same genitals as a cis man.

Messofanego · Jun 21, 2018

If I was single and the person was post-op, sure why not.

I wish gender reassignment surgery was way more affordable. It's like $30,000 in the USA, right? I don't know the prices in different countries. Is it affordable here in Europe, UK?

Heisenberg726 · Jun 21, 2018

GenericVillainName said:
It looks like its bannable if you rule out dating a person who is trans

Seriously? Are there really people banned for saying that? If so, that's disgusting.

TheBeardedOne · Jun 21, 2018

Rayne said:
Yeah I'd say the hardline I'd never data a transperson is bigoted but when it comes to who you choose to sleep with you can be as discriminatory as you want.

As long as you don't take that out of the bedroom its really no one else's business.

Dating generally means attraction and the potential for a sexual relationship. Friendship is different.

Visanideth · Jun 21, 2018

TheLostBigBoss said:
That's not a conundrum, that's pretty clear as day.

Let's be clear here: you're saying that not being willing to date a trans woman as a cis man/gay man or a trans man as a cis/gay woman on the premise that he/she's trans is transphobia? I got that right?

Yasuke · Jun 21, 2018

Ogre said:
Meh. Cis men and women are surveyed all the time on what features on the opposite sex they find attractive. Arms and abs and butts and whatever come up all the time. Guess what things don't? Dicks and vaginas.

Of course dicks and vaginas don't come up; those surveys are about what they find attractive on the opposite sex lol implying said person has the opposite genitalia.

Deleted member 2945 · Jun 21, 2018

Can I ask what the purpose of the thread was? Like, what would be the spectrum of acceptable opinion in this thread without risking being banned or suspended?

Does the OP realise that posting a thread as a mod has an immediate chilling effect on people that might want to express an opinion but feel unable to do so.

And for a lot of them, that might be the correct way, to make sure they take stock and ponder what they actually mean before offering something.

But it also means that people cant understand why their position might be wrong, worrisome, transphobic or problematic.

So far, the pathway to not get banned is to say "I only date people I can have children with".

Was this a genuine attempt to challenge conventional views?

Deleted member 8561 · Jun 21, 2018

Visanideth said:
Let's be clear here: you're saying that not being willing to date a trans woman as a cis man/gay man or a trans man as a cis/gay woman on the premise that he/she's trans is transphobia? I got that right?

Let me counter by asking do you consider trans women to be women and trans men to be men?

Because my answer is pretty obvious depending on how you answer that question.

leenbzoold · Jun 21, 2018

GenericVillainName said:
It looks like its bannable if you rule out dating a person who is trans

It appears to be bannable to express that you view a person as something as which that person doesn't view itself.

Rayne · Jun 21, 2018

TheBeardedOne said:
Dating generally means attraction and the potential for a sexual relationship. Friendship is different.

Yes that's what I was trying to get at. Long as that discrimination doesn't leave that arena I don't see an issue. No one's obligated for people to find them dateable.

PaddingtonDidntDoIt · Jun 21, 2018

What are the stats on Trans people dating gay people?
For example, Trans men dating gay men or trans women dating lesbian women?

Deleted member 39214 · Jun 21, 2018

IceBringer said:
You seriously think that's the reason they were banned? Wtf

Maybe im wrong but this person pretty much said that and nothing else

Beardz said:
No, I won't date trans, fats, ugly people. What's the peoblem?

BDS · Jun 21, 2018

Heavy's Sandvich said:
Does the OP realise that posting a thread as a mod has an immediate chilling effect on people that might want to express an opinion but feel unable to do so.

Don't worry, despite dozens of people posting horrifically transphobic rhetoric throughout this thread, only a couple have been banned.

Skelepuzzle · Jun 21, 2018

GenericVillainName said:
Maybe im wrong but this person pretty much said that and nothing else

...they conflated being trans with two cultural pejoratives. It was clearly meant to be insulting and not an explanation on how people can be attractive despite certain attributes that society may look down on as a tendency.

Protome · Jun 21, 2018

I'd be interested in seeing how this has changed and continues to change over time. You would hope that low number in the OP is at the very least a little higher than it would have been in previous years. Still disappointing to see though.

GenericVillainName said:
It looks like its bannable if you rule out dating a person who is trans

No, it's just bannable to say trans women aren't women and trans men aren't men. Which is a pretty reasonable thing to ban people for.

MarineMountie · Jun 21, 2018

Heavy's Sandvich said:
Can I ask what the purpose of the thread was? Like, what would be the spectrum of acceptable opinion in this thread without risking being banned or suspended?

Does the OP realise that posting a thread as a mod has an immediate chilling effect on people that might want to express an opinion but feel unable to do so.

And for a lot of them, that might be the correct way, to make sure they take stock and ponder what they actually mean before offering something.

But it also means that people cant understand why their position might be wrong, worrisome, transphobic or problematic.

So far, the pathway to not get banned is to say "I only date people I can have children with".

Was this a genuine attempt to challenge conventional views?

Starting to wonder the same thing. I say I don't want to date or sleep with someone with a penis and suddenly I'm a bigot that needs to fix my way of thinking, and I'm being accuses of saying transpeople aren't what they identify as by a mod.

Most hostile forum I visit, that's for sure.

Yasuke · Jun 21, 2018

pinkurocket said:
Dating doesn't just mean having sex. If you feel attracted to a person and they say they're trans, it might be a dealbreaker because you know you can't advance the relationship in the way you want OR, at this point you've realised how much you love this person and you're willing to make it work. So many discussions on this topic will condense it down to the genitalia, but I think those are missing some steps. Sex is also called 'making love' for a reason and if you really love a person, it can be intense and great even if the body isn't exactly what you feel attracted too. Again, you have to look at the big picture of actually falling in love with a person and then taking the next steps in the relationship. Simply flat out denying dating a trans person because "not being into the genitalia" definitely sounds to me like being close-minded.

Nah, this isn't it.

There's something to be said about people not being open enough to date someone because they were born as something other than what they are at present. That likely points to some type of prejudice.

But not being down with dating someone who currently does not have the sexual organ you yourself like to play with ain't it. I don't like penises, no matter who they're attached to.

I don't think anyone would seriously argue your preferred sex makes you bigoted.

Aang's_Bae · Jun 21, 2018

PaddingtonDidntDoIt said:
What are the stats on Trans people dating gay people?
For example, Trans men dating gay men or trans women dating lesbian women?

29 percent for cis lesbians according to the article and 11 something for gay cis dudes. Even fifty percent of non-cis people said no to other non-cis but no one seems to want to discuss that.

Look at the op for the direct quote. Can't post it for some reason.

Yoshi · Jun 21, 2018

Puck Beaverton said:
I mean, we still get fat shaming on the regular

Sorry, but what is the context here? Beating someone up for not disclosing their sex before intercourse is in some way comparable to unfriendly comments towards an unhealthy lifestyle?

Deleted member 19003 · Jun 21, 2018

I don't believe trans male surgery is advanced enough to fully construct a working male penis yet, so that would be a major obstacle for me personally. Maybe once science catches up enough more people would be on board.

dragonlife · Jun 21, 2018

MarineMountie said:
This thread is literally asking about preferences...

I'm not even going into the rest of your drivel as it's nothing but bashing, and trying to pass off your view as 100% fact even though we are discussing sexual preference in this thread. There is no globally set sexual preference. Everyone's is different. You continue putting words into people's mouths and posting your condescending bullshit. I have said NOTHING hateful or out of line in this thread, and you come at me with this horse shit. Get the fuck outta here.

I'm not trying to bash you, man. The fact that you're still thinking you're not saying anything hateful is telling, though. If I'm sounding condescending, that was definitely not my intent, either, but it's hard to decipher when you're heated and reading text.

I'm not building a funeral pyre for you for anything you've said, but I'll leave you to your views. I'll take my drivel with me, but I'm not getting the fuck outta here.

IceBringer · Jun 21, 2018

GenericVillainName said:
Maybe im wrong but this person pretty much said that and nothing else

You really don't see anything wrong with that post?

Robin · Jun 21, 2018

Aang's_Bae said:
29 percent for cis lesbians according to the article and 11 something for gay cis dudes. Even fifty percent of non-cis people said no to other non-cis but no one seems to want to discuss that.

Those transpeople are wrong too. I'm happy to talk about it.

TheBeardedOne · Jun 21, 2018

MarineMountie said:
Starting to wonder the same thing. I say I don't want to date or sleep with someone with a penis and suddenly I'm a bigot that needs to fix my way of thinking, and I'm being accuses of saying transpeople aren't what they identify as by a mod.

Most hostile forum I visit, that's for sure.

Yeah, people who say no are being demonized for not wanting to sleep with someone who was the same sex (and perhaps currently has the same genitalia or at least once did), or someone who is wanting to become the same sex.

It's not like people pick who they're attracted to.

I'm all for trans rights, but I have the right to my own sex life too, just like anyone else does or at least should. Not that I have much of a sex life.

Persephone · Jun 21, 2018

Dusk Golem said:
My attraction to someone is so picky though, and I sorta' hate myself for it. I identify as straight, but I've tried experimenting outside of that. The unfortunate conclusion I've come to is my attraction to somebody is way too picky, even with CIS females I'm really picky. And I hate it. It's not even pickiness in appearance, which is why this confuses me. I literally cannot find someone personally attractive unless a few things occur, the first of which being a personal connection is formed. I can see guys and girls and think they look nice, but I don't hit attraction from their looks alone.

Sounds like you're demisexual breh

Punjabi_Hitman said:
I mean you don't directly stick it in the urethra but it exits the vagina doesn't it? And it gets all over the vagina too.

Atleast in a trans-woman the piss won't get all over their vagina since they'll have a small penis to direct away their piss or does it?

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Deleted member 39214 · Jun 21, 2018

Skelepuzzle said:
...they conflated being trans with two cultural pejoratives. It was clearly meant to be insulting and not an explanation on how people can be attractive despite certain attributes that society may look down on as a tendency.

IceBringer said:
You really don't see anything wrong with that post?

Yeah , most people in this thread have pretty much said the same thing but have added context to it , i dont want to derail or anything so ill just report it , but i dont see that as something to be banned over.

Interested Observer · Jun 21, 2018

GenericVillainName said:
Maybe im wrong but this person pretty much said that and nothing else

I mean they're clearly using trans as a pejorative. I don't think that post was remotely constructive in any way.

If it was bannable to say you wouldn't date a trans person then apparently 97% of straight people wouldn't be welcome here.

AztecComplex · Jun 21, 2018

How different is questioning straight guys about them preferring ciswomen because of their genital preferences from questioning gay men for choosing penises and ignoring vaginas? Not much different, in my opinion.

Sexual preference is not the same as being discriminatory.

Aang's_Bae · Jun 21, 2018

Cas said:
I don't believe trans male surgery is advanced enough to fully construct a working male penis yet, so that would be a major obstacle for me personally. Maybe once science catches up enough more people would be on board.

It kinda is but it's hyper complicated and the results aren't the prettiest from the super post op pics I've seen.

Robin said:
Those transpeople are wrong too. I'm happy to talk about it.

Why do so many so when they're already on the outs with society. Self-hate is strong in the black community but not this strong.

PaddingtonDidntDoIt · Jun 21, 2018

Aang's_Bae said:
29 percent for cis lesbians according to the article and 11 something for gay cis dudes. Even fifty percent of non-cis people said no to other non-cis but no one seems to want to discuss that.

Look at the op for the direct quote. Can't post it for some reason.

So 50% of trans people said they don't want to date other trans people? Am I getting this right??

Aang's_Bae · Jun 21, 2018

PaddingtonDidntDoIt said:
So 50% of trans people said they don't want to date other trans people? Am I getting this right??

Yep. I was kinda blown away too. Also non-binary individuals said no too.

Deleted member 8561 · Jun 21, 2018

Non CIS != Trans

Robin · Jun 21, 2018

PaddingtonDidntDoIt said:
So 50% of trans people said they don't want to date other trans people? Am I getting this right??

That's what it says, which is quite upsetting if true. I raised an eyebrow for sure, but internalized transphobia is totes a problem within the community, just shocked to see the number that high.

The Wraith · Jun 21, 2018

A person's sexual preference is their own. Im not going to judge someone for not wanting to date a transexual person, just like I won't judge someone for dating a transsexual person. It comes down to the persons preference. I'm a cis straight male and I have no interests in dating a transsexual woman. I dont have anything against them but I prefer cis straight women.

Lurcharound · Jun 21, 2018

Ogre said:
Lol.

Meh. Cis men and women are surveyed all the time on what features on the opposite sex they find attractive. Arms and abs and butts and whatever come up all the time. Guess what things don't? Dicks and vaginas.

(yes, I realize this is also a function of whether or not a survey has a limited selection of items to choose)

I don't think that's necessarily true. People date for a variety of reasons: companionship, excitement, love, and yeah, sex. For instance, here's a paper on motivations for using Tinder.

What people note as being 'attractive' I find one of the least trustworthy elements of such studies. Not that I'm saying they're all thinking 'dicks and vaginas' secretly but it's been shown multiple times there's a big gulf between noted - what the person thinks intellectually - in such studies and what they do in real life which can vary wildly. Dating is minefield of desires, ideals, social conditioning and norms and spur of the moment madness. Putting it in a survey and drawing conclusions has always led to conflicting results.

My point is more on the relationship of dating/attraction to social acceptance which I don't think is useful focus given all the uncertainties in dating/attraction in the first place. Not only that but there's a huge gulf in attainment between getting trans-gender individuals equal treatment and making majority of others date them. Who anybody dates is inherently impossible to dictate (well without a social structure you really wouldn't want anyway). I'd focus energies on more urgent social and professional issues with discrimination of trans individuals myself.

Zoc · Jun 21, 2018

PhazonBlonde said:
He's apparently got a body straight men love after all

This is arguing in bad faith, dude has obviously had surgery/hormones.

TheBeardedOne · Jun 21, 2018

The Wraith said:
A person's sexual preference is their own. Im not going to judge someone for not wanting to date a transexual person, just like I won't judge someone for dating a transsexual person. It comes down to the persons preference. I'm a cis straight male and I have no interests in dating a transsexual woman. I dont have anything against them but I prefer cis straight women.

.

Deleted member 8561 · Jun 21, 2018

Zoc said:
This is arguing in bad faith, dude has obviously had surgery/hormones.

Most trans people who are out take hormones.

Deleted member 19003 · Jun 21, 2018

Aang's_Bae said:
It kinda is but it's hyper complicated and the results aren't the prettiest from the super post op pics I've seen.
.

Good to hear they're working on it, but yeah.

PaddingtonDidntDoIt said:
So 50% of trans people said they don't want to date other trans people? Am I getting this right??

Huh. Now that's interesting.

MegaBeefBowl · Jun 21, 2018

This seems like a bad study, but even if it wasn't so broad I'm sure the numbers would still be embarrassing.

I think society has long forged the penis as a masculine thing, and I wouldn't want to engage sexually with another penis because of that masculine connection.
If a trans woman is post-op, she's no different from a cis woman sexually speaking, and wouldn't be excluded from my potential dating pool.
I assume, however, I'd be labeled as a "No" on this study because of that stance.

Even that stance is a tiny group of people, and it's a shame, but I have no idea how that mindset shifts besides time.

PaddingtonDidntDoIt said:
So 50% of trans people said they don't want to date other trans people? Am I getting this right??

That's a shocker.

Yoshi · Jun 21, 2018

Brazil said:
The "valid reasons unrelated to hatred" you mentioned aren't really valid reasons for saying something like the above at all. People who care deeply about having biological children have had and do have relationships with partners who are sterile. People have had to and do renounce their religious vows to stay with someone they love.

I think this is a bit difficult though in the following sense: If a woman is sterile, yet has not tried getting children yet, there is likely no way of you or her knowing that she is sterile when you start dating. If then, years later, it comes out that she is sterile, it's not a matter of deciding whether to date anymore, but a matter of deciding whether you stand by your partner after loving the partner for many years and having formed a partnership already. As important as reproduction is for me, if my wife had turned out sterile, I would definitely not have left her for that.

Now, on the other hand, this poll makes the assumption you are aware a potential partner is transsexual, because if you are unaware of it, the question whether you'd date the person is certainly stupid. Now, if you are aware that a person is trans and does not have the right sex for you to be able to get children with the person, then this is a valid reason not to want to date the person as to not to start a relationship with someone you know in advance will not be able to get children. In a sense, we are experiencing here a shift from a "me" perspective (person deciding on who to date) to a "we" perspective (persons already in an established relationship). Of course, this is potentially less of an issue with matching sex but incongruent gender, depending on whether the potential partner plans on having any procedures done.

TheBeardedOne · Jun 21, 2018

Yoshi said:
I think this is a bit difficult though in the following sense: If a woman is sterile, yet has not tried getting children yet, there is likely no way of you or her knowing that she is sterile when you start dating. If then, years later, it comes out that she is sterile, it's not a matter of deciding whether to date anymore, but a matter of deciding whether you stand by your partner after loving the partner for many years and having formed a partnership already. As important as reproduction is for me, if my wife had turned out sterile, I would definitely not have left her for that.

Now, on the other hand, this poll makes the assumption you are aware a potential partner is transsexual, because if you are unaware of it, the question whether you'd date the person is certainly stupid. Now, if you are aware that a person is trans and does not have the right sex for you to be able to get children with the person, then this is a valid reason not to want to date the person as to not to start a relationship with someone you know in advance will not be able to get children. In a sense, we are experiencing here a shift from a "me" perspective (person deciding on who to date) to a "we" perspective (persons already in an established relationship). Of course, this is potentially less of an issue with matching sex but incongruent gender, depending on whether the potential partner plans on having any procedures done.

It's only fair for the other person to be made aware, though.

Aang's_Bae · Jun 21, 2018

TheLostBigBoss said:
Non CIS != Trans

Shouldn't non-binary people have even less reason to say no due to the absolute metric ton of shit they face?

Heisenberg726 · Jun 21, 2018

TheWickedSoul said:
I wouldn't date a trans person but be friends? Sure. Trans people should have all rights everyone else has and they shouldn't be discriminated for who they are.

Best post of the thread here. I agree completely.

Napoleonthechimp · Jun 21, 2018

Heavy's Sandvich said:
getting into strange territory where we're shaming people for not wanting to consent here.

It's weird that is being considered "outrageous".

Eduardo Corrochio · Jun 21, 2018

I think it's a bit odd that people who have been claiming that they have no control over their own sexual preferences are now raising eyebrows at the sexual preferences of those 50% of trans folk.

Can't have it both ways.

Visanideth · Jun 21, 2018

TheLostBigBoss said:
Let me counter by asking do you consider trans women to be women and trans men to be men?

Because my answer is pretty obvious depending on how you answer that question.

I consider trans women to be women and trans men to be men.

Deleted member 8561 · Jun 21, 2018

I really love how people have completely twisted the thread into little sub arguments and excuses, when really the main issue is people, full stop, won't date a trans person simply because they are trans.

And we have people in this thread being open and honest with that, and then being applauded by other members like they are brave for saying how they marginalize a marginalized group of people.

New Research Shows a Vast Majority of Cis People Won't Date Trans People

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