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AudioEppa

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,670
LMAO! Why is it that you guys always claim "Oh b-but they're focusing on pretty graphics, gameplay be damned". That isn't true at all, but of course you'd have to actually let your bias not show in order to realize that. TLoU and other ND games have great gameplay that fits the stories and games they're trying to make, it seems like you guys think great gameplay only involves complex systems that actually aren't fit for every type of game. It's quite ridiculous to call this "unfortunate" as there's always something for everyone and holy fuck even in a thread about amazing animation technique we can't get rid of the unnecessary negativity.

This so damn much.

Anyway, That demo alone was enough to make this E3 great. Naughty Dog will probably continue being my favorite developers for a long long long time. Part II isn't even out and I'm already getting excited to see what their future games look like. They are the complete package of a studio. And I'm personally happy that storytelling is a high priority, Because that's what keeps me focused.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,606
Apologies for the size of this gif, but you can see this in practice
1. How natural the wind up to the vault looks, in spite of the fact that barely a second beforehand she was reacting to a bullet flying past her head. Usually there would be a conflict that creates some "jank."

2. Despite stumbling multiple times throughout the gif there's always a very natural transition back into the sprint
EzbQOMk.gif
 
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HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,423
I'm nearly as excited to see what this tech means for the Infected enemies. I imagine the devs could make them even more disturbing from really messed up animations while wandering aimlessly to make them terrifying as they clamber over stuff in the environment to get at you. I'm imagining Infected crawling after you under cars while others run around or even climb over after you.
 
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Wollan

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
Norway but living in France
Actually that gif shows probably one of the most notable flaws highlighted in the hour long frame-by-frame analysis video. Notice how she skates for like two frames after landing from the second vault (very hard to see though in full speed).
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
What? No. This escapes it. A game doesn't have to be photo real to escape the uncanny valley. This game avoids its characters looking like hollow empty dolls. If you want to see some uncanny valley stuff, just look at Heavy Rain's animation.

No. The character animation looks great ( how well it plays has to be seen) but everytime I see the faces my brain screams at me that something is wrong although I can't pinpoint exactly why.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,606
Actually that gif shows probably one of the most notable flaws highlighted in the hour long frame-by-frame analysis video. Notice how she skates for like two frames after landing from the second vault (very hard to see though in full speed).
It would be much more prominent in other games. Vaulting is usually one of the jankiest looking actions in games when compared to the rest of the stuff you can do.

No. The character animation looks great ( how well it plays has to be seen) but everytime I see the faces my brain screams at me that something is wrong although I can't pinpoint exactly why.
ND's characters are stylized but at this point the animation is pretty much spot on. I can see how that creates an uncanny valley effect, there's a moment during the party where Ellie makes an expression that makes her look exactly like Ashley Johnson.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
It would be much more prominent in other games. Vaulting is usually one of the jankiest looking actions in games when compared to the rest of the stuff you can do.


ND's characters are stylized but at this point the animation is pretty much spot on. I can see how that creates an uncanny valley effect, there's a moment during the party where Ellie makes an expression that makes her look exactly like Ashley Johnson.

I noticed that right away.
 

zsynqx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,450
I'm nearly as excited to see what this tech means for the Infected enemies. I imagine the devs could make them even more disturbing from really messed up animations while wandering aimlessly to make them terrifying as they clamber over stuff in the environment to get at you. I'm imagining Infected crawling after you under cars while others run around or even climb over after you.
And doggies
 

FreezePeach

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,811
Sounds like a great blend of mo-caped and procedural animation. I noted as i watched this in the conference how there didnt seem to be any jarring animation transitions, making me wonder if it was more like a QTE sequence.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,423
Thinking back on the David fight in the Hall makes me hope for a much more nuanced and intense version of that fight. A single overwhelmingly powerful foe who is actively stalking you through a very densely packed area and you have to sneak up on them while they try to do the same to you all the while the character is taunting you.
 

oneils

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,145
Ottawa Canada
Why would you want cancelling for a game like this? This isn't Vanquish or a character-action game. If you're trying to make combat feel weighty and deliberate, or feel like there's heft and momentum behind attacks, then canceling is unintuitive and counter-productive. Like Sande brings up, it's the difference between combat in Souls versus more arcadey combat. Cancelling isn't inherently better or good, its effectiveness depends on the kind of game and the kind of combat.

I don't want it in this game. I tend to prefer games that have it, though.
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
I will admit the animation is fantastic looking. But there always seems to be that caveat that the smoother and more natural looking the animation, the mushier it feels in your hand.
This is meant to be a response to that, though. Playing back discrete animations takes control away from the player (classic example being stuff like Tomb Raider or Flashback, where a whole animation cycle has to play out before a new one starts), but Motion Matching is designed to allow the system to respect player input and figure out how the player character would get there, animation-wise, so it allows for more responsiveness than most modern animation systems in that regard. It still results in a character that is somewhat bound to realistic physicality, so it might be less responsive, say, than games like Bayonetta where your character pirouettes on a dime and moves in ways no human can, but those are games that are not largely using a lot of mocap in the gameplay in the first place.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
This is meant to be a response to that, though. Playing back discrete animations takes control away from the player (classic example being stuff like Tomb Raider or Flashback, where a whole animation cycle has to play out before a new one starts), but Motion Matching is designed to allow the system to respect player input and figure out how the player character would get there, animation-wise, so it allows for more responsiveness than most modern animation systems in that regard. It still results in a character that is somewhat bound to realistic physicality, so it might be less responsive, say, than games like Bayonetta where your character pirouettes on a dime and moves in ways no human can, but those are games that are not largely using a lot of mocap in the gameplay in the first place.

Hey, if this is the technology that breaks the rule, then I'm all for it.
 
Apologies for the size of this gif, but you can see this in practice
1. How natural the wind up to the vault looks, in spite of the fact that barely a second beforehand she was reacting to a bullet flying past her head. Usually there would be a conflict that creates some "jank."

2. Despite stumbling multiple times throughout the gif there's always a very natural transition back into the sprint
EzbQOMk.gif
I just noticed that Ellie's switchblade is sticking out of her pocket! Such nice details!
 

MunkyMan33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
188
LMAO! Why is it that you guys always claim "Oh b-but they're focusing on pretty graphics, gameplay be damned". That isn't true at all, but of course you'd have to actually let your bias not show in order to realize that. TLoU and other ND games have great gameplay that fits the stories and games they're trying to make, it seems like you guys think great gameplay only involves complex systems that actually aren't fit for every type of game. It's quite ridiculous to call this "unfortunate" as there's always something for everyone and holy fuck even in a thread about amazing animation technique we can't get rid of the unnecessary negativity.
Alright, I'm done here. I thought I was being very civil and simply explaning the point of view that someone shared, and was being mocked for, as not completely unfounded or unfair. Your whole post screams "unnecessary negativity". We are just talking about toys and which ones we prefer, man.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Not seeing this whole "uncanny valley" thing. I think they have it down pat. Besides, the uncanny valley effect largely stems from facial expressions "missing" that human quality. Like, little movements that you don't notice consciously, but that your brain does. Used to be that the largest perpetrator were the eyes, in that they seemed empty.

These days though? You guys realize that facial mocap may as well be 1:1 these days, right?
 

imapioneer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,057
The best looking game I have seen so far. Again cutscene level animations with complex wrinkles during gameplay. Still blown away and keep thinking this will get downgraded.
 

Monarch1501

Designer @ Dontnod
Verified
Nov 2, 2017
162
This is fantastic news for indie games and mid-tier games
Seeing that Motion Matching require a huge amount of motion capture data to work properly, I don't see indie games using the technology at all, even mid-tier games. I think Unity's trying to move toward larger studios, as evidenced by their recent push in rendering technologies and hires.
 
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Wollan

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
Norway but living in France
Seeing that Motion Matching require a huge amount of motion capture data to work properly, I don't see indie games using the technology at all, even mid-tier games. I think Unity's trying to move toward larger studios, as evidenced by their recent push in rendering technologies and hires.
Really? I see it as hugely enabling. Just rent a motion capture studio for some hours and perform your dance-cards and import it into the game. I mean, the GDC session demonstrated 4 hours of work vs estimated 4 months of work to get fully functioning character animation/controls.
 

Monarch1501

Designer @ Dontnod
Verified
Nov 2, 2017
162
Really? I see it as hugely enabling. Just rent a motion capture studio for some hours and perform your dance-cards and import it into the game. I mean, the GDC session demonstrated 4 hours of work vs estimated 4 months of work to get fully functioning character animation/controls.

Obviously, it all depends on the game's scope and you could make it work if you nail it the first time around and the data is good. But if you want to iterate, you'd have to book again and renting a motion capture studio is kinda expensive.
 
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Wollan

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
Norway but living in France
But it sounds like we're looking at least an order-of-magnitude (if not two) in contrast to the old way of doing it (building a complex state-machine with either piecemeal motion captured segments or hand-animated). Time is money, even for indie developers. :)
 

Harris Katz

Member
Apr 9, 2018
1,139
I read this article yesterday and I can't believe how technically far ahead of every other developer Naughty Dog is on every single title they release. Just when you think they can't top themselves, they blow away expectations.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
Thanks interesting it is at 38 minutes and he works on animation as a programmer. He said many systems are shippable or nearly shippable including animation and will be into the final game. He said it was not the case for all Naughty Dog game. He works since 12 years at Naughty Dog.

Edit: He told one time they needed to scrap months of work(UC4?)

yea UC4 they scrapped some stuff when Amy left and they changed the story and such
 

Wolfgunblood

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,748
The Land
How much of a compromise is it in terms of twitch control? Is it like FIFA where there is a priority on lifelike animations over instant control response?
 
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Wollan

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
Norway but living in France
Some initial work on Motion Matching for Unreal Engine 4, the twitter thread has some cool animating gifs that gives you an idea of the feel (with the joystick input direction visualized) :

 
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Wollan

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
Norway but living in France
I see that Dan Lowe (the tech animator whom speculated that Naughty Dog was actually utilizing Motion Matching by analyzing their E3 demo, before it was revealed), he's now starting at Sony Santa Monica:
 

Binabik15

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,667
Aww shucks, I hoped for a new video on motion matching or some procedural animation magic.

Good for the dude, though.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
29,230
I see that Dan Lowe (the tech animator whom speculated that Naughty Dog was actually utilizing Motion Matching by analyzing their E3 demo, before it was revealed), he's now starting at Sony Santa Monica:

Ok, I was trying to figure out why his name was familiar..

I think I saw this tweet posted in the Sony first party OT thread too.
 

Pagusas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,876
Frisco, Tx
I don't give a damn about this game or Naughty Dog (they've always made the worst type of games for me personally) but I adore the tech they are pushing and hope Bethesda and CDR get ahold of it