Honestly I just finished the book and it has me rethinking whether or not I want to continue playing The Horde this expansion. They would need to have a huge redeeming Arc for Sylvanas
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World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth datamining & spoiler thread
- Thread starter Deleted member 1378
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I actually think in-game Sylvanas is mostly fine. What Ive played of the BfA beta and seen from the datamining, they do a better job of having her motivations land in the "grey" space.
Her portrayal in the comics and the novel are where there is a problem since shes just framed as psychotic. Meanwhile, Anduin is depicted as the most pure hearted person in existence; beloved and respected by all, even horde leaders.
Her portrayal in the comics and the novel are where there is a problem since shes just framed as psychotic. Meanwhile, Anduin is depicted as the most pure hearted person in existence; beloved and respected by all, even horde leaders.
This is a very strange thing to say. If changing a person's body and mind without their consent isn't evil, then what is?
Do you consider Yrel's actions (forcibly converting Orks to the light) evil?
Self Ownership:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ownership
is one of the fundamental concepts of morality. Clearly both of these situations are immoral.
The use of the plague is also very troubling, with even those on her own side having objected to it.
Was it? She certainly has demonstrated a propensity to do such things.
I call her evil based upon her evil actions. You should stop hand washing those evil actions away.
You don't see me making excuses for Genn either. I do happen to find his behavior very troubling. But that doesn't excuses Sylvanas's actions.
Genn has always been kind of a jerk, but he's actually mellowed out a lot from his early incarnation. He also has a legitimate reason to be mad. He had the last standing human kingdom in Lordaeron, barely managed to wrest it from a werewolf curse, struggled with the world shattering, and then these asshole undead come in and make things a hundred times worse. I'd be angry at them too.
Genn is actually one of the more interesting Alliance leaders, I think, and a good foil to Anduin. Anduin is young, peaceful, and idealistic - which is a type of character I think the Warcraft universe needs - while Genn is old, strongarmed, and jaded. The two of them working together kind of balance each other out.
Genn is actually one of the more interesting Alliance leaders, I think, and a good foil to Anduin. Anduin is young, peaceful, and idealistic - which is a type of character I think the Warcraft universe needs - while Genn is old, strongarmed, and jaded. The two of them working together kind of balance each other out.
I play both sides but I'm Horde for fucking life. Honestly this expansion is pretty shit as a Hordie. I don't like what they're doing at all, and it makes me even angrier that Vol'jin (one of my favorite characters) died for this garbage. I play the Horde because I've loved the "ragtag group of survivors banding together" story since WC3. It's really frustrating that we keep getting shoved into the villainous (or "morally grey") role again and again just because a completely different Horde was the undisputed villain in WC1 and WC2.
Even if it all ends up being some Old God ruse, it doesn't make it fun or engaging in the short term. It's still obnoxious and shitty, and I hate that Sylvanas and the undead have usurped the Horde's storytelling when Darkspear and Tauren (OG members) still haven't gotten shit for good story in ages. Let alone the Hojin Pandaren. I dunno. I wish that an expansion about Faction Pride actually embraced the idea of the faction and showed all of the individual races of each faction working together and interacting in fun and interesting ways.
Even if it all ends up being some Old God ruse, it doesn't make it fun or engaging in the short term. It's still obnoxious and shitty, and I hate that Sylvanas and the undead have usurped the Horde's storytelling when Darkspear and Tauren (OG members) still haven't gotten shit for good story in ages. Let alone the Hojin Pandaren. I dunno. I wish that an expansion about Faction Pride actually embraced the idea of the faction and showed all of the individual races of each faction working together and interacting in fun and interesting ways.
Genn really is an excellent character, truly well developed with strong motivation and really consistent characterization and growth. Too bad he is.... Alliance scum.
Just kidding. I really like him and his story and I hope he keeps getting a bigger spotlight because he was in some of the best scenes during and throughout Legion.
You can't have that because the sole reason fir the Horde's existence is to prop up the amazing Alliance.
This is why we've been killing Horde figureheads or alternate versions of them left and right while the sole Alliance character we kill (of significance that is) is Majordomo Staghelm and he was a racist piece of shit.
It was even funnier when the only non elemental / Vrykul / faceless mobs in Dragonsoul were taurens and orcs
I'm struggling to pick either faction. Before the Storm hammers the point home that both Sylvanas and Anduin are terrible.
I'm guessing I'll end playing Horde like always, but I'm not gonna like it. At least there's new troll stuff though.
The reasons for Sylvanas are pretty obvious, but Anduin letting Calia fucking Menethil anywhere near that field during the event was just stupid. I get not wanting to let Sylvanas know she was alive, but that doesn't mean you stick her on the field. The grand plan was to just keep her hood up and hope no one noticed. Just dumb and it really feels like they started from wanting light undead and worked backwards from there.
EDIT: Oh, and the beginning of the book acting like Anduin and Sylvanas were doing to much to lead the factions through Legion was also dumb. The whole point of the order halls was that the factions essentially became defunct in the war after the Broken Shore.
EDIT: Oh, and the beginning of the book acting like Anduin and Sylvanas were doing to much to lead the factions through Legion was also dumb. The whole point of the order halls was that the factions essentially became defunct in the war after the Broken Shore.
I'm guessing I'll end playing Horde like always, but I'm not gonna like it. At least there's new troll stuff though.
I take it you haven't played the BETA and you are probably better off so you can enjoy it on Live.
- Vol'jin as has been stated in multiple Q&As is far from gone and has a part to play in BFA.
- There is cinematics being held back even on Beta that will reveal more about the burning of Teldrassil.
- The Troll Storyline is actually pretty freaking awesome. It is rewarding AF as Horde and rewarding as long-time players. You really get to learn all about the fantastic lore and history of Trolls. The Alliance zones really weren't my taste and their was so much disconnection. Maybe I just don't care about the Proudmoore's or something. The Wickerman cult stuff is cool and they have some awesome dungeons... plus Alpacas!
- Nazmir is up there with Suramar on the incredibly awesome storytelling front and Surmar is considered one of the best questing zones in WoW ever released by many
- They definitely need to get Sylvanas story direction figured out but having played to 120 with 3 characters, one being alliance I really don't think she is going the way Garrosh did.
The book shouldn't be how you judge Sylvanas
Golden is a prety vocal Anduin fanboy and despises the forsaken. She was never going to paint Sylvanas as anything but pure evil
I love how quickly people are turning on Golden because she finally pulled the trigger on their undead waifu being trash as she's been since the beginning.
She wasn't always trash. There's a certain point where they started portraying her differently.
Probably post Wrath. After losing her desire for vengeance against Arthas she lost meaning and the will to keep existing and tried to kill herself. She was saved by the Val'kyr and has had a twisted mindset ever since. Especially since she ended up in WoW-Hell. Knowing that was my ultimate destination would do a number on me, too.
Don't mind me. I've always hated that character, even when she was a ranger in War 3.
Golden's stance has been prety well known before she even joined Blizzard and I never believed it was a good thing because she thoroughly lacks proper balance for a game that has to be interesting for both factions and not be so black and white as she portrays it.
I don'T care about Sylvanas and I've never leveled an undead past Silverpine forest but the demonizing of Horde main characters is getting super old
Outside of the Tauren, the horde are pretty established to be the bad guys. The trolls have always been oppressive terrorists of a former empire, the Forsaken are literal zombies, the orcs are invaders from another world, the blood elves are arrogant addicts, and the goblins are scumbag schemers. The night elves are really the only genuinely shitty race in the Alliance.
Have many of them been great characters? Of course, but given how their government works (a loose confederation that reluctantly agrees with the warchief) it's rife with being taken advantage of by a power mad dictator. You look on the Alliance side and basically anyone who was blood thirsty was either alienated (Jaina) or mitigated (Genn, Tyrande.)
The horde just fundamentally set themselves up to be constantly taken advantage of because to be honest it's in their nature, much like the majority of their instance camping player base.
The Horde is written that way. Also your last comment is rather telling (hint, both factions instance camp)
This is hilarious, you're obviously a massive alliance fanboy, I play both factions and I really don't get why people such as yourself cling to one, you're missing half of the story.
In terms of Horde 8.0 comes out miles ahead of alliance content story wise. Many miles. If you are Alliance and have a horde alt you might want to dust the char off just for Hordes story.
And IMHO hiring Golden as writer was one of Blizzards best moves ever. She is really really talented and knows Azeroth very well.
I'm in the beta and my main is an Orc warrior (used to be Tauren though). I'm still not sure where the story is going and while there'S lot lorewise (mostly around the Zandalari Empire and it'S prety amazing), the main horde story doesn't go anywhere interesting for now. It's still prety black and white
They really made Jaina an interesting character with that stuff.
It's just one patch. The big evil isn't known like it was in Legion. I'd just enjoy the ride. All I'm saying is I really enjoyed it.
I find this hard to believe. It may have had a good storyline.. but the Stealth Mechanic / Overpowered Mobs made Suramar, at least mechanically, the most frustrating quest area in the entire game. This is coming from someone who played since Vanilla. I hated every second of Suramar.
Sorry about your experience. I've played since the beta of Vanilla and loved it. I found BS and Argus to be lacking.
I was waiting for Argus ever since random NPC dude in Bloodmyst mentioned it.
It ended up being one of the most boring areas in the game (outside of the raids). Had enough of vomit green? Alright, let's finally change it up! Vomit yellow time!!
On the other hand, I adored Suramar and pretty much every other Legion area. I did enjoy the actual story surrounding Argus a lot, too.
It ended up being one of the most boring areas in the game (outside of the raids). Had enough of vomit green? Alright, let's finally change it up! Vomit yellow time!!
On the other hand, I adored Suramar and pretty much every other Legion area. I did enjoy the actual story surrounding Argus a lot, too.
Thats what I enjoyed about it. It was nice finally having a place in WoW that was actually dangerous, it kinda felt like an out door dungeon. Contrast that with Argus which is suppose to be a terrifying place but it never really feels threatening unless you are on a pvp server where folks love to camp the teleporters.
Suramar's the best-crafted questing experience Blizzard's ever made, and nothing else really comes close.
Has some downright beautiful areas, to boot.
I don't know how they made so many vomit green zones and yet none of them were even as visually interesting as Outland Shadowmoon Valley. Though I could rant at length about how the visual themes in Legion kept coming up short compared to their previous demon expansion... not to mention how much less interesting they managed to make said demons.
Has some downright beautiful areas, to boot.
I don't know how they made so many vomit green zones and yet none of them were even as visually interesting as Outland Shadowmoon Valley. Though I could rant at length about how the visual themes in Legion kept coming up short compared to their previous demon expansion... not to mention how much less interesting they managed to make said demons.
It's good as a one time experience, but the novelty wears off quick when they expect you to return there everyday for 5+ World Quests. Maybe being a DK with no mobility or escapes exacerbated my terrible experience, but before flying I found it to be unbearable and one of the reasons I stopped playing. The balance between replay-ability and ease just wasn't there for me. Hell, I didn't even get my Manasber until after Argus was released.
I don't have a problem with Sylvanas being a dick. My problem is Anduin is not. He's just vanilla and good and light. Ready for that corruption storyline to play out.
Nooooo
Just have Genn balance him out. I'm tired of good guys being actually bad and vice versa. Just let this universe have a good guy who actually does stuff for once.
Well, there's that comic from before Legion's launch with old man Anduin leading an army for one last battle. He's gonna be sticking around for a while and it seems like he's going to be a "good guy".
I can totally understand why some people might not have liked it, but I loved it and I hope when they do Nyalotha it has a similar structure.
I agree, things could be a lot more even had they picked a better High King. In fact, a bit of headbutting over the title could have been a great story moment and would have been an opportunity to see something besides humans dominating the alliance narrative.
I don't know what to say, the zone was easy as fuck. As a DK you could solo the elite section of the zone even prior to having any raid gear at all just by respeccing blood...
The part you're meant to solo? was still 'easier' than old wow classic zones imo. Like, ok there are a few elites you avoid, and yes if you just run around you'll get mobbed, but the disguise works and is VERY easy to keep on. Like, it was intimidating for a week, the notion that somehow it got 'old' before it got easy is crazy.
EDIT: I realize re-reading it that this post sounds super douchey, that's not really what I'm trying to get accross, but I think the 'I played since Vanilla and this is absurdly hard' point holds so little water, I don't think Vanilla was hard either, but both areas have the same 'difficulty': You have to be aware of your surroundings and pay attention to where and how you maneuver. That's it. If you don't fight 3+ things at a time you're completely fine even in the starter gear this xpac. If you're not careful about your aggro, you'll die potentially, sure. This is the first 'end game' questing zone they've made in a decade or more, so I understand people aren't used to it, but it's not meant to be easy, nor is it designed to be super hard though, just requiring attention.
I never said it was hard, I said it was frustrating. When designing something that's meant to be repeated on a daily basis, I think a certain amount of quality-of-life should be added to the quest design. It's why 95% of daily quests in the game can be completed in less than 5 minutes. Suramar, as a one time experience, is great. But I think it lacks the one-and-done design that most daily quests follow. And it's an issue of Blizzard not creating unique daily quests and simply re-hashing the leveling experience.
Also, have you ever personally tried doing Suramar Elite quests as Blood in pre-raid gear? I have. Is it do-able? Absolutely! Does it take 10-15 minutes because of low DPS, roaming mobs, and short respawn timers? You bet your ass it does. Having to spend that amount of time on one quest when there are dozens of others in the world, that take much less time to complete, is worrisome. I know the solution is "group finder" but that can be unreliable.
I dunno, Anduin turning out to be evil would be lame. He's been portrayed as peace loving and not a warrior, uncomfortable with the role of battlefield commander.
If anything, it would be better if his arc was that he's just not a great leader, and definitely not the battlefield commander his father was. Making him dark just because Garrosh was portrayed that way, and then Sylvanas got painted that way, is kind of a lame reason.
Making him also dark in some way lacks nuance. Making him too idealistic for this terrible world, and a failure of a leader whose people lose faith in would be far more interesting. Maybe the Alliance story could evolve into players trying to keep the Alliance together as smaller splinter factions start to lose faith in Anduin's idealism and naivete.
That way, it gives Anduin something he needs to prove both to himself and others, and we give him an opportunity to grow into the successor he's meant to be.
Yes, I have, I soloed most of that questline as blood, prior to EN being available. I soloed the dailies every day as frost. "quality of life" is a nice catch phrase, but Suramar is designed where the quality it is putting forth is that you actually have to put a tiny bit of effort into the game, and lilke most things in wow once you've done it enough it ceases to even require that.
What is 'poor quality of life' in Suramar? the disguise? Don't get seen. it's not like it's some insane obstacle course, it's just avoiding people with obvious eyeballs over their heads.
Is it that the mobs are designed to actually be 'end game' level challenges? Because that still A) gets easier over time wtih gear, and B) is kind of the point of the game.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that someone doesn't like something? I don't like Suramar or the disguise mechanic. If you like it, that's great! Enjoy it! What you consider fun and engaging, I consider frustrating and time-consuming. Different strokes for different folks. It doesn't mean you have shit tastes, or you're a more pro-player because you enjoy it. It just means we enjoy different types of content.
Agreed. Suramar was on of the best questing experiences I've had and likewise, been around since vanilla beta. Nazmir is right there IMO too.
What? I do accept that you don't like it. You are the one that posted that YOU find it hard to believe that it was a popular zone, and have proceeded to keep replying about how it's frustrating.
Hot take: It WAs a popular zone, anecdotal but this is based on all of the internet related to wow that I consume. Most people really enjoyed it. If you don't like it that's fine, but expect to see more of it going forward, and if you want to say why you don't like it, you should accept that I may also explain why most do.
To throw a bone to my Alliance peeps I really feel that while most of horde zones look really great some parts of Kul Tiras are freaking gorgeous. Amazing art design. I hope future patches make the narrative more engaging but it is stunning looking in parts.
I too tired of the fel, legion, green misery motif and what you get in BfA is the opposite.
I quit WoW a long time ago, I don't like the direction the game is taking and would rather spend time doing something else. Battle for Azeroth looks cool, but 10 years and the RNGfest of Legion really turned me off from the game. I remember coming back and playing for a month... I think I spent around 4+ hours a day trying to get cooking recipes from Nomi, paragon mounts, and argus mounts. I didn't get a single one and I came to the realization I just spent more than 140+ hours of my life playing a game and had nothing to show for it. I'm not going back.
Well, honestly I think MMOs in today's days are complicated.. especially if you have to be online like 4-6h a day.
I loved wow when I was back in school, but since I started working 6 years ago I can't commit to a raiding schedule and honestly.. the quality of the game isn't the same.
I do like LFR and it's very fun to see the content.
I think the raiding is better than its ever been, sans some top tier places like Ulduar, but I'm a huge fan of achievements and collecting on my downtime, and I feel like Legion lacked a sense of completion. Everything was linked to some kind of RNG or ridiculous grind, and it took me out of the game because I felt I was always chasing something I couldn't catch. I miss the days of being able to work towards recipes / mounts / pets through tokens or reputations instead of doing content for a chance of getting something.
Suramar is pretty great...the first three times you run it.
I just wish a lot of stuff that's gated behind it could by bypassed.
I just wish a lot of stuff that's gated behind it could by bypassed.