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Mailbox

Member
Oct 30, 2017
561
Not only was his Uncharted 4 video embarrassing (literally calling it Simon Says >.>)
but now he called Detroit "the worst race allegory" when anime has produced many shows predicated on racial allegories that are way worse...

I really think he should stick with anime analysis b/c his games analysis skills are embarrassing.
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,446
Not only was his Uncharted 4 video embarrassing (literally calling it Simon Says >.>)
but now he called Detroit "the worst race allegory" when anime has produced many shows predicated on racial allegories that are way worse...

I really think he should stick with anime analysis b/c his games analysis skills are embarrassing.

You're incapable of disputing any of his points so you move to discredit him.

Y'all not even trying to hide the bias.

Grow up.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
In your bluster you may have missed that the very question the game is posing is how do you enslave something that isn't 'alive'? Stop making Markus a 1:1 with a human.

Can Markus leave Carl's house when he wants? Can Markus not work when he wants? Can Markus pursue a relationship with other people? If he can, I would not call that enslaved. I also have a hard time saying how a machine made for a purpose could be enslaved in the first place.

That's where the shades of grey come in. That's why this subject matter has persisted and been depicted in countless literature, films and television shows. What we're discussing is the crux of the entire game.

Why should I stop equating Markus to a human when that is 100% what the game is trying to say? It says it in the beginning of Markus and Kara's story, it says it in the countless examples of true human emotion from the cast, and it shows it in the title of the game. We're not talking about Hal 9000 or even Roy Batty here; the androids in Detroit are, when deviant, as human as you and me. It's not a "grey area" when the game makes it so black and white, and the existence of paths where you can go against the game's message does not change that.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
This is the message of the game.

As for your second paragraph, Markus can't do those things because he's a slave that was bought as a product and lives in a society racist enough to lynch him.
It's the message of the game if you want to make it the message. Markus had a good life that he is presented as enjoying (if you think this is a bad depiction, direct that towards the person who made the game, not the person taking exception to a bad, stereotypical YouTube rant)

Do we actually know he can't do those things? We're given a small snippet of Markus' daily routine. You state a lot you don't know as fact.
I mean yes his channel's focus is on anime with his video game related videos being more rare (though I believe he noted he likes to talk about them and just finds less opportunities to do so). That's not really relevant to this video though so I don't get why you brought it up if you weren't trying to make some backhanded insult about his character by bringing it up
I wouldn't ever insult someone's character because they like a style of entertainment. Think what you want, I get that one tiny throwaway line invalidates everything I've written. It was my surprise at seeing this type of video on a channel that focuses on anime. I'd post the same thing if it was a channel mostly focused on death metal. You're getting defensive for no reason.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
It's the message of the game if you want to make it the message. Markus had a good life that he is presented as enjoying (if you think this is a bad depiction, direct that towards the person who made the game, not the person taking exception to a bad, stereotypical YouTube rant)

Do we actually know he can't do those things? We're given a small snippet of Markus' daily routine. You state a lot you don't know as fact.

Markus is literally prohibited from wandering off by big neon signs.
 

IceFireTerry

Member
Mar 17, 2018
345
Don't you fucking dare. Markus's inciting incident is literally him being unjustly shot by a white police man. America is still suffering so heavily from the effects of the slave era that white people can and do harass PoC on a literal daily basis for even the most benign of things, like driving down the wrong street:


PoC are literally being dehumanized on a daily basis by our presidency, and the media, to the point where a man on national television felt emboldened enough to say "womp womp" in response to a 10 year old being separated from their mother . Race issues are still an incredibly prominent aspect of the day by day life in America. Are we slaves? No, but we're still suffering from the effects of slavery.

holy crap that lady needs to be in jail. back in the old days black people would get lynched on a white lie
 

gaogaogao

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,679
for a game that allegedly is "not saying anything" it sure has a lot of dialog.
that dialog says something whether the writer knew that or not.
 

Parenegade

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,589
Then maybe you shouldn't make an adventure game around for patronizing to people of color and people in general who experience various types of prejudice along with profiting off of it that doesn't actually serve to help them in any regard and actively does the opposite

I'm a person of color and I wasn't bothered by it. I know some other people who played it and they also enjoyed it. Don't generalize everyone.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
Why should I stop equating Markus to a human when that is 100% what the game is trying to say? It says it in the beginning of Markus and Kara's story, it says it in the countless examples of true human emotion from the cast, and it shows it in the title of the game. We're not talking about Hal 9000 or even Roy Batty here; the androids in Detroit are, when deviant, as human as you and me. It's not a "grey area" when the game makes it so black and white, and the existence of paths where you can go against the game's message does not change that.
I'm not going to bend over backwards to explain away Cage's lack of subtlety or the myriad of problems the game has, that was never my intention of being in this thread.

You can 100% play this game and come away with the feeling that the androids are not human and fundamentally never could be. I'm not saying that is what I think, but you're talking in absolutes about a game that exists to be shaped and interpreted how the player sees.
You're incapable of disputing any of his points so you move to discredit him.
If you do that you just get shouted down and told you're nitpicking though.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
picking up paint for carl

looking at things

getting on the bus

returning to carl to wake him up

seems like an errand and nothing more

That's some awful argument you got there. You missed out so much stuff that was in the game such as:

- Carrying Carl throughout the house
- Making Carl breakfast
- Turning the TV on for Carl
- Partaking in a leisure activity of your choice... because Carl said so
- Cleaning up Carl's art room
- Taking Carl to and from a party
- Calling the police for Carl

You can 100% play this game and come away with the feeling that the androids are not human and fundamentally never could be. I'm not saying that is what I think, but you're talking in absolutes about a game that exists to be shaped and interpreted how the player sees.

You can come away from Star Wars and think that the Empire did nothing wrong, that doesn't mean that the Star Wars films overwhelmingly want you to root for the Rebels. You can come away from Fallout 3 having nuked and murdered half of Washington D.C., that doesn't mean the game thinks those things are right. Just because, by its nature, the game lets you go down the paths does not mean it advocates for them.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
Which he forces himself through when he actually wants to as depicted in the game. He always had the ability.

EDIT: Actually, in hindsight, I'm not going to continue this discussion any further since it's gone so far from the OP's video that it's really not worthwhile. If you have a point related to the video itself instead of "but Markus isn't a slave!" then feel free to quote me again, but I won't be replying to you after this.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
He still can and does if you choose so.

Why would Markus care that he couldn't fight back if he didn't care about Carl? That feels like a choice.

Which he forces himself through when he actually wants to as depicted in the game. He always had the ability.

So basically there's a point in Markus' life where he's conditioned to accept rules that restrict his freedoms.

You're really pushing for this Carl the Good Slave Owner narrative, but I guess the game is too.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I'm not going to bend over backwards to explain away Cage's lack of subtlety or the myriad of problems the game has, that was never my intention of being in this thread.

You can 100% play this game and come away with the feeling that the androids are not human and fundamentally never could be. I'm not saying that is what I think, but you're talking in absolutes about a game that exists to be shaped and interpreted how the player sees.

If you do that you just get shouted down and told you're nitpicking though.
Of course they never could be human. Cage can't write at all and discuss what being human is. He poses the questions of if they can, but never answers them in the slightest or forms a deeper discussion.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
Kara does the same and Connor does the same. Does that mean neither are slaves?
Connor is depicted as having a profession that he likes (because he is programmed to and, if you choose so, because he actually just likes it and believes in it).

Kara leaves as soon as she feels threatened and sees her environment as bad for her and the child and is threatened with violence if she intervenes or wants to leave. That's enslavement if you think sentience = fundamental human rights as well.

Markus is not depicted as ever wanting to leave and never does until he is physically destroyed. That's my entire point when it comes to Carl and Markus. If Markus asked Carl to leave, how do you know he wouldn't allow him to? That's not enslavement if that is a possibility. The way Carl and Markus' relationship is depicted, from memory, I think that's potentially a reasonable expectation or possibility. The three different depictions exist for a reason.

It's an entire different argument to make that Markus' entire existence is enslavement from the get go since he is made to do one thing. That then goes down the rabbit hole of the nature and rights of these machines and that's what the game is about.

I'm not really that interested in talking about the ins and outs of an average game, I'm just not going to accept perception as a counter argument in a game entirely made up of player perception. Back to breaking down this interminable video since that was what this thread is about. I hope I come around on it.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
You're really pushing for this Carl the Good Slave Owner narrative, but I guess the game is too.
I'm pushing what is actually in the game. Kara leaves, Markus doesn't. Why?
Of course they never could be human. Cage can't write at all and discuss what being human is. He poses the questions of if they can, but never answers them in the slightest or forms a deeper discussion.
No argument here.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I'm pushing what is actually in the game. Kara leaves, Markus doesn't. Why?

No argument here.

Because Markus hadn't awoken yet the way Kara did, because it's stated in game that deviancy occurs due to high emotional trauma. It's not like he chose to be there; Markus doesn't have choice at that point.
 

Deleted member 23489

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
97
I thought this was the weakest of the three Playstation games Cage made. The amount of irrational behavior and plot holes simply ruined the game for me. You had to suspend your disbelief for Heavy Rain a bit too but it wasn't this bad, and it was easier to look past it. In Detroit, there were major plot holes with most Chapters that made me roll my eyes. The dialogue has always been pretty bad in these games, but the fact that we are dealing with some heavy issues here makes the poor writing really stand out.
 

Ænima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,513
Portugal
Because Markus hadn't awoken yet the way Kara did, because it's stated in game that deviancy occurs due to high emotional trauma. It's not like he chose to be there; Markus doesn't have choice at that point.
To Markus Carl was a father, thats the way Carl treated him, like a son, to the point his real son was jealows of Markus. Even afer awaking, Markus can return to Carl house (If in ur choices Carl stays alive) and he calls him father again even after being deviant.
 

TheRulingRing

Banned
Apr 6, 2018
5,713
I enjoyed the game for what it was, but it's hard to disagree with the idea that it's a poorly done racial allegory.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
5:05 - 17:20

I really like everything here. It's a fundamental issue I had with the game. The entire premise of the game is shoddy at best and the player has to continually work to meet the game halfway by throwing away logic and common sense repeatedly.

Cage declaring the androids aren't stand-ins for slaves, immigrants, minorities, etc. is absurd (and he should and has been called out for this continually) and the game doesn't even hide this fact and doesn't handle this well. This has been discussed ad nauseam but Mother's Basement finds his footing 5 minutes in and makes good points and stops (mostly) insulting Cage personally.

He also weaves in how he thinks the messaging is sometimes good but often actually bad in a wrapper that looks good on the surface but isn't when you peel back the layers. For me, I still think I'd rather have an attempt made at a positive message than not attempting it at all just because you can't get the messaging right in all ways at all times. A lot of people will play this game and some of those people need heavy handed examples to get a positive message across. Even when the delivery is hysterical and or/a mess. His point challenges how I came out of the game feeling and I accept and respect it: Intentions can be good but are actually fundamentally bad when they are only surface level deep.

17:20 - End

The public opinion mechanic is a great idea that rarely matters and they do nothing with it. Painting the conflict as everyone versus the oppressed is bad, something that didn't stand out to me immediately after I played but I really like what MB's says about this and highlights it.

This is a solid video and I agree with the message and most of the criticism but delivery matters. Pandering to people who loathe Cage as person and that 5-minute, breath free rant that turns away people before you even get going and undermines the meat of this entire thing. I'm looking forward to this type of criticism not being couched in angry gamer stereotypes or from a self-described 'Professional Shitbag' which just sounds like a moniker created to hide behind if you say something people take exception to.

There's a lot of good stuff here, why turn people away at the door?
Because Markus hadn't awoken yet the way Kara did, because it's stated in game that deviancy occurs due to high emotional trauma. It's not like he chose to be there; Markus doesn't have choice at that point.
Good point.
 

MrHeisenbird

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
751
It's easy to enjoy this video when the guy reminds you every 3 minutes that he hates David Cage like you do.

Also, you cannot put the civil rights of androids under the same context as the civil rights of blacks. Androids are NOT people unless they deviate. Meanwhile blacks like me ARE people but have a long history of mistreatment regardless.

Detroit is not retelling black history.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,157
Greater Vancouver
It's easy to enjoy this video when the guy reminds you every 3 minutes that he hates David Cage like you do.

Also, you cannot put the civil rights of androids under the same context as the civil rights of blacks. Androids are NOT people unless they deviate. Meanwhile blacks like me ARE people but have a long history of mistreatment regardless.

Detroit is not retelling black history.
Except for all the ways it tries to call back to black history.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
It's easy to enjoy this video when the guy reminds you every 3 minutes that he hates David Cage like you do.

Also, you cannot put the civil rights of androids under the same context as the civil rights of blacks. Androids are NOT people unless they deviate. Meanwhile blacks like me ARE people but have a long history of mistreatment regardless.

Detroit is not retelling black history.
This might at least be a good article for you to read
https://blog.usejournal.com/a-criti...ng-and-why-it-is-intensely-awful-cf8ad51858cd

Or this one
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-casual-inhumanity-of-how-detroit-become-human-uses-1826776147


Correct. The game's about androids not Black people.

Maybe you need to read one of the articles too.

At the end of the sequence, Luther turns on his master in the end and helps Kara and the child escape. He had a change of heart after seeing the child attempt to rescue Kara, suddenly realising his chains and then choosing (ugh) to break them. Androids are supposed to be all the same race with pigmentation never acting as a differential, but Cage can't conceal his own writing here. He clearly employs the 'white woman teaching black man about how to be free' trope, a nasty leftover from the darker pages of American suffragette history: the white woman's burden.

Cage codes the androids as black, trying to argue that their plight is the same as that of boundpeople. He doesn't make androids black — no, he does something worse: he compares robots to black people. He may deny them, but the parallels are undeniable to us and everyone else. There is a direct comparison being made between American slavery, and his fictitious robot game. Again, comparing non-people to people who were treated as property isn't a great analogy. In fact, it's dumb and racist as shit.

The parallelisation becomes an aestheticisation, with no allegory to follow through on. The perspective of "imagine what robots would endure" is embarrassing and pointless without an active metaphor. Cage has constructed a fully realised world of legal discrimination and labour exploitation that doesn't signify anything outside of the game itself. But he vehemently denies any real-world parallels or analogues, despite using them to prop the game up.

Even though Cage doesn't want to invoke any historical or racial allegories, the way he communicates androids as being an oppressed subject places them in a real world analogue. Because, well, if you reference a real historical event, it contextualises the message. So the whole game winds up being a shuffle about how lifeless things are the new black people of America.
 

TissueBox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,988
Urinated States of America
For me, the game is at its weakest when it's trying to sell a "message". Particularly one adhering to these tired and tread sci-fi humanity studies. From Asimov to Blade Runner to Terminator to Ex Machina to Westworld to Nier: Automata... there really is very little new to be said that is worth listening to without inventiveness or competence in another department. Detroit's take on the Turing test dilemma is another philosophical shortcoming in the long haul, whatever place its heart is trying to be in.

Rather, it is saved from being a 'terrible' game by the integrity of its take on the AAA cinematic adventure, with multiple story branches and a surprisingly compact narrative for a fair chunk of its breadth helmed by a strong audiovisual presentation.

I do not think Cage is being malicious as much as he is just being ignorantly harmful here. Yes -- his ideas are bolstered in spite of him, not necessarily because of him.

QD is a team of people. I believe moving forward, they can improve, and I would like to see that, because I think Detroit most convincingly and positively embodies one thing if nothing else: potential for expansive experiences, and hopefully better writing as well.
 
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Ænima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,513
Portugal
Except for all the ways it tries to call back to black history.
The idea is the premiss of history repeating itself but this time with a new target that isent human. So it lets the player decide if they should be trated as humans, or not cus they are machines. Also in this ficticious world, androids are the reason many ppl dont have a job anymore, so many ppl hate androids for that and make them a target. Since they cant fight back they are easy bullied or abused. Witch makes them start to deviate due to emotional stress.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
Correct. The game's about androids not Black people.
Then they shouldn't have used so much imagery that's associated with the civil rights era. Stop trying to deny the obvious influences when the game itself makes those exact same parallels. Good lord please drop the pretense of "I don't get how this is a callback to the civil rights era hurr," stop being so disingenuous. If you genuinely DON'T understand the very purposeful callbacks and imagery, then you have no place trying to discuss whether or not these elements are handled well. Because understanding history is the first step to discussing material that makes callbacks to it.

It also call back to WW2 and protests in Ukraine 4 years ago. So what?
It's almost like the core issue is how the game handles it's allegories.
 

Ænima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,513
Portugal
They lift MLK's most famous speech as a slogan and make them stand at the back of the bus.
They are machines. In a real life situation thats what would probably happen. Same way ur pets arent alowed to travel in the same sits of his owners in airplanes, and they are living creatures. Androids are not suposed to be alive. Is like starting to say Amazon Alexa is a personal slave now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,505
Bandung Indonesia
I am curious, does people think that Detroit is a harmful existence to black people in general due to its clumsy imagery?

Markus is literally prohibited from wandering off by big neon signs.

Haha, it's just a gameplay mechanic dude. It's no different than invisible walls in so many other games. Heck Kara and Connor got them too.

What, you're saying Cage is trying to say something too with invisible walls in this game now? Really?
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
They are machines. In a real life situation thats what would probably happen. Same way ur pets arent alowed to travel in the same sits of his owners in airplanes, and they are living creatures. Androids are not suposed to be alive. Is like starting to say Amazon Alexa is a personal slave now.
The entire core of the story is about androids having human rights. Let's drop the buss then, let's talk about how androids can only use the stairs and cannot use the escalator. These moments of segregation are in plenty of points in the game as you walk around the city.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Which is my point. When you start with that opener, you've put up a barrier to entry. The opener to this video is a conclusion that he hasn't supported yet and he also states that someone who doesn't agree with his premise (which I guess you glean from the title of the video and thumbnail?) is wrong since he doesn't agree.

There are loads of eloquent critiques of Detroit in written and video form that don't take an outright hostile approach to the subject and viewer right out the gate. I know this type of YouTube commentary is vogue right now, but I don't have to like it. The creator undermines themselves with their opening statement.
Is this the forum equivalent of "la la la I'm not listening."
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I liked the story and the parallels to issued POC face. I hoped the game got people attached to the characters, so when it put them in similar situations other people have to learn to avoid for survival, they develop empathy for real people if they never get to know a person in like situations in their life. The type of person that only know different people from tv stereotypes, and fear hungry news. The type of person that feels bad that a lion was killed but is desensitized when there's news of another black kid shot by police, thinking "if only they had been good, an angel. I always walk away after doing some of the craziest things. The cops always let me off with a stern warning at most."

Also, for a spiderweb story, I think it was well done. If it was linear, had unmissable content, and little gameplay at all I would expect more. Creating these things must be a nightmare. Currently I'm playing Pillars of Eternity 2, minding my own business I came across something that I wouldn't stand for. So after a bloody hour I get a mission failed notification. I apparent screwed all over some narative people set up, and it sounded interesting when I looked it up. Reminds me of that Westworld guy.
 

Ænima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,513
Portugal
The entire core of the story is about androids having human rights. Let's drop the buss then, let's talk about how androids can only use the stairs and cannot use the escalator. These moments of segregation are in plenty of points in the game.
Androids dont get tired. They was built to serve humans. Making androids using an scalator would be useless as humans use escalators to save energy, androids dont need. Same way they travel in the bus standing. They are machines.
The idea of the game is the world was built with adroids to be only serving machines, screw the working class, and enritch the big corporations that dont have to pay human labor. Now what happens if this machines start feeling alive with human emotions? Should they be treated as equals? Thats a decision each player can make. If you want to treat them and fight for equality you can, but if you want to treat them as machines only and wipe them all out, your story can also end that way.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Androids dont get tired. They was built to serve humans. Making androids using an scalator would be useless as humans use escalators to save energy, androids dont need. Same way they travel in the bus standing. They are machines.
The idea of the game is the world was built with adroids to be only serving machines, screw the working class, and enritch the big corporations that dont have to pay human labor. Now what happens if this machines start feeling alive with human emotions? Should they be treated as equals? Thats a decision each player can make. If you want to treat them and fight for equality you can, but you you want to treat them as machines only and wipe them all out, your story can also end that way.
I can play this game too. Escalators could be used as a quick charge when they stand on them and makes more economic sense to do so than having some side stairs, as segregation is expensive and wasteful of money.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
Is this the forum equivalent of "la la la I'm not listening."
It's the forum equivalent of criticizing the delivery of a critique. When that's not a valid comment to make in a thread like this, I'll stop doing it. I actually watched the sitcom length video, parts of it several times.

Here's all my 'not listening' in handy dandy link form for you to consume.

Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]

Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]

Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,505
Bandung Indonesia
Carl still sees Markus as a machine; he's curious, and fascinated by what Markus does whilst painting, but in no way does he believe Markus is 'human'. If he did he would either be a lot worse of a person than he actually is or he wouldn't be keeping Markus around in forced servitude. As for the Canada point, he's not wrong; whilst Canada might not allow Androids in the country its status as a safe haven means that Androids aren't regulated nor are they explicitly sought after whilst in the country. It's like banning a drug from coming into a country whilst simultaneously letting people do drugs on the street like it was nothing.

Carl flat out stated that Markus is more human than any human he's known.

In fact even after he becomes the leader of Android rebellion, Markus still longs for Carl's company and flat out stating that their relationship is a good example of how humans and androids can coexist peacefully. The game isn't exactly subtle in saying that their relationship is a positive one.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
It's the forum equivalent of criticizing the delivery of a critique. When that's not a valid comment to make in a thread like this, I'll stop doing it. I actually watched the sitcom length video, parts of it several times.

Here's all my 'not listening' in hand dandy link form for you to consume.

Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]

Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]

Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]
Ok you still don't address the core issue: how is this actually a good racial allegory?
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
Ok you still don't address the core issue: how is this actually a good racial allegory?
I must have missed where I've ever said it was one. Or implied it was. Or didn't actually end up agreeing with the abrasive video's entire premise and admit to there being some things in the game I hadn't given much consideration to or how I had sort of respected the game's intent while not considering the underlying messaging being potentially harmful as well.
 
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