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Does Social justice have an image problem?
- Thread starter PixelatedProphet
- Start date
I'm getting "no true scotsman" vibes from this accusation.
Let's just say, at least for myself, my standards are raised. I absolutely despise the association of mental disability with stupidity("retarded") or quirkiness("autistic") due to having family with them. I ardently believe that even the small jokes or vocabulary that we take for granted are incredibly harmful. There is enough evidence out there that language influences culture. Why do you think we no longer tolerate non-black people using the N-word? I also stopped using the word "trap" to describe crossdressing individuals. It's an obviously bigoted statement in comparison to Japan's "otoko no ko" term for them.
As noted before, I agree there are people out there guilty of this(including myself). I do think we need to chill the hell down. We can find something offensive while calmly discussing why we feel that way.
Such "hate" for whites and men is totally understandable in response to what they've done to them. They still pale in comparison to the misogyny and racism by whites, thanks to systematic oppression that has murdered and ruined the lives of billions.
I've never tried this, but I've always wanted to see what happens if I get the jump on someone who is obviously a Trump supporting bigot and accuse them of being an SJW before they can do that to me just to see how it plays out. I mean their arguments don't make sense anyway so you can support the accusation with any bullshit.
SJW is just the newest term by bigots to justify their bigotry. The same attitudes have been thrown at LGBT people forever, similar accusations, similar talking points.
It's not new at all, the only difference is that more media is jumping on it and broadcasting it.
People standing up for marginalized people, and marginalized people themselves, were always tone policed as fuck. Anything too radical (and saying "treat us as humans" is already considered extreme) would get you branded - as SJW now, as "politically correct" 20 years ago.
Most of the time, it's not even a teenager posting it: It's a 4chan troll. You have to dig really hard on tumblr to even find such stuff, and oddly, when you do, they often posted pepe memes a couple weeks back.
It's not new at all, the only difference is that more media is jumping on it and broadcasting it.
People standing up for marginalized people, and marginalized people themselves, were always tone policed as fuck. Anything too radical (and saying "treat us as humans" is already considered extreme) would get you branded - as SJW now, as "politically correct" 20 years ago.
Most of the time, it's not even a teenager posting it: It's a 4chan troll. You have to dig really hard on tumblr to even find such stuff, and oddly, when you do, they often posted pepe memes a couple weeks back.
Not everyone think people deserve to be equal because sometimes they think the world is already pretty fair.
They have their privileges so far up their arse that they can't see why women or LGBT would want more rights
In brazil these people call their world view meritocracy which is basically if you sux you haven't worked hard enough therefore you are a spoiled asshole
They have their privileges so far up their arse that they can't see why women or LGBT would want more rights
In brazil these people call their world view meritocracy which is basically if you sux you haven't worked hard enough therefore you are a spoiled asshole
These are anti-feminist cartoons from early 1900s. And if it wasn't for the dresses they were wearing, you could have easily mistake them for modern day anti-feminists propaganda.
Social justice will always have an image problem no matter ho kind, considerate, and reasonable they act.
Exactly. It's not an image problem, it's that social justice will always make those with privilages uncomfortable, and the easiest, quickest way for them is to disqualify based on lies, distortion or picking the worst of the left and showing them as representatives of all. There is so much injustice in the world that asking for a movement to focus on only a few causes at a time to please those who will never be comfortable with empathy will still cause suffering.
Do people keep missing the "More Modern Backlash" part? There was the PC backlash of the 90s and this is the latest iteration. The pushback against these shifts died down in the late 90s or early 2000s and returned at some point after the 2012 election. Probably around or a bit after Gamergate is when this mess started heating up.
I like when her only response to video and audio contradicting what she's claiming is "well me reading something different happened"
I've not come across anyone who uses the term "SJW" and doesn't have a very skewed perspective on gender and race.
There's delusional, and then there's brainwashed cultist.
Trump has made a political cult. This is not normal.
I can't emphasize this enough.
Damn, way to go. Keep trying to change the world from atop your ivory tower!
What we need to do is push the fact that the alt-right is committing far greater atrocities as we speak.
An atrocity such as driving a person to suicide.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/game-developer-chloe-sagal-passed-away.51149/#post-9639794
An atrocity such as driving a person to suicide.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/game-developer-chloe-sagal-passed-away.51149/#post-9639794
Well, i guess that as for everything, some partizans are way too zealous and aggressive about it. And so, as always in this case, the minority outshine the majority and the movement get generalized with them in mind.
A group is always dragged down by it's worst members. So yeah, it has some image problems. As every possible group about social issues ever. Still is better seen than the Trump cronies.
A group is always dragged down by it's worst members. So yeah, it has some image problems. As every possible group about social issues ever. Still is better seen than the Trump cronies.
The idea of the "SJW image" is the insecurity of the antagonists unwillingness to just accept they can't have their way. Do I know who Devon Franks, the african american muslim boy who wanted to go to his prom in a dress is? No. Would I hang out with him? Unsure, I don't typically hang out with people I don't know, especially people still in high school. Do I care if he was banned from his school prom? Of course I do. Irrelevant to the fact that I sympathize being judged and bullied for being me (and my only problem was I was big and fat), but I don't need an excuse to be upset at the decay of moral society.
Don't shove nuclear wasp family value shit in my face and tell me to vote republican and then be a total twat to other people with the most grotesque injustice. I already had to choose between a friendship of 5 years over his problems with a woman being the main character of Star Wars episode 7 and a black storm trooper, and I now own the Bluray/DVD.
You don't ingest more poison to not offend the people making the poison, you spit it out.
Don't shove nuclear wasp family value shit in my face and tell me to vote republican and then be a total twat to other people with the most grotesque injustice. I already had to choose between a friendship of 5 years over his problems with a woman being the main character of Star Wars episode 7 and a black storm trooper, and I now own the Bluray/DVD.
You don't ingest more poison to not offend the people making the poison, you spit it out.
I've never understood the right's terms.
Conservative - So, you're against progress?
Social justice warrior as an insult - You think it's wrong to fight for social justice?
Conservative - So, you're against progress?
Social justice warrior as an insult - You think it's wrong to fight for social justice?
I've never heard the term uttered outside the internet by people I know, I've have heard the term "Politcally correct cry baby" used when people get overly emotional, hyperbolic and straight up mean (think 0-100 mood flip). So yes it was used in a dismissive "you're acting like a crazy person right now and I can't even carry on a conversation with you" way. Granted these type of people were always ridiculed on the news (not just Fox news) when topics of "we need to be more sensitive because we don't want people to get hurt feelings" before the 2016 election. Back then it was simply labled "The PC crowd".
I never seen it used (outside the internet) in regards to people sticking up for minorities, it's usually thrown around when topics like "dodge ball should be banned in school" "everyone should get a trophy" "you shouldn't spank your kids" type of scenarios.
I could see the situations above being labeled as SJW by uninformed and hateful people though who get their news from FB and Twitter comment sections.
I never seen it used (outside the internet) in regards to people sticking up for minorities, it's usually thrown around when topics like "dodge ball should be banned in school" "everyone should get a trophy" "you shouldn't spank your kids" type of scenarios.
I could see the situations above being labeled as SJW by uninformed and hateful people though who get their news from FB and Twitter comment sections.
I live in a dung tower. You don't want to live my life. My life is one of solitude and loneliness.
To be honest I think a lot of people undervalue how mainstream a lot of the alt-right terminology is even if people aren't aware of what it means and how damaging that can be. SJW, Femanist, Cuck, and Soyboy are all glaring examples of toxic masculinity that are adopted by people because of how they align with edgy humour, the issue is that people then start adopting them as principles with little understanding of why and there's literally no way to encourage people to engage with what the terms mean. If you argue passionately then you'll be seen as emotional rather than object or they'll try and take the moral high ground because they're more "polite" and if you enter a good faith argument supported by facts then you'll just be ignored.
If you honestly think you can win someone over with a good faith argument then just try it. Talk to a random person about feminism is on the internet and it will go along the lines of:
Someone in a random discord makes a joke about swiping left on Tinder whenever he sees the word feminist in the profile.
Me: What's so bad about feminism. Is equality really so terrible?
Them: Well, women are trying to take away men's rights?
Me: Whilst there's some schools of radical feminism such as serperationists they probably make up less than .01 percent of people who identify as feminists and all movements have extremists. Have you done any reading on the subject? Can you think of any examples of people in the mainstream who want men's rights to be evoked, not just people posting on tumblr?
Them: Weren't there some celebrities talking about it how feminists are crazy...
Me: I don't know about that, if you can't be specific could you maybe name some mainstream feminists concepts you don't agree with?
Them: Oh, toxic masculinity, that's obviously not a thing!
Me: Right, could you explain to me what you think toxic masculinity and how you think that's related to feminists wanting men to lose their rights?
Them: ...Look, I never said feminists were bad. They're just exhausting to be around and preachy so I don't know why we're arguing.
Every good faith argument where a person has stayed calm has been like this on/offline. I have no idea what you're meant to do when talking to people who simultaneously have strong opinions on topics whilst refusing to engage with the subject on any level.
If you honestly think you can win someone over with a good faith argument then just try it. Talk to a random person about feminism is on the internet and it will go along the lines of:
Someone in a random discord makes a joke about swiping left on Tinder whenever he sees the word feminist in the profile.
Me: What's so bad about feminism. Is equality really so terrible?
Them: Well, women are trying to take away men's rights?
Me: Whilst there's some schools of radical feminism such as serperationists they probably make up less than .01 percent of people who identify as feminists and all movements have extremists. Have you done any reading on the subject? Can you think of any examples of people in the mainstream who want men's rights to be evoked, not just people posting on tumblr?
Them: Weren't there some celebrities talking about it how feminists are crazy...
Me: I don't know about that, if you can't be specific could you maybe name some mainstream feminists concepts you don't agree with?
Them: Oh, toxic masculinity, that's obviously not a thing!
Me: Right, could you explain to me what you think toxic masculinity and how you think that's related to feminists wanting men to lose their rights?
Them: ...Look, I never said feminists were bad. They're just exhausting to be around and preachy so I don't know why we're arguing.
Every good faith argument where a person has stayed calm has been like this on/offline. I have no idea what you're meant to do when talking to people who simultaneously have strong opinions on topics whilst refusing to engage with the subject on any level.
God, this part is too real. I've had so many conversations where I really need to continue but they just go "I don't know why we're arguing" and me continuing would make it look like I'm in the wrong for making fuss when clearly there's peace.
Its how they distort reality, its all group think and unspeak. Trying to make whats good seem bad, its really fucked up. The sad thing is it kind of works as well, Society is really going down this rabbit hole of weirdness.
I have a related question. Internet seems to be brimming with alt-right, especially the former place. How many socially accepting forums like era are out there? The gaming forums and reddit are a mess. I want to know if are on an island surrounded by sharks, or if we are the sharks surrounding alt-right nazis?
I haven't bothered to look, but HG101's discord seems fine.
Era is by far the most left leaning place I've found on the internet. GAF before it.
- Accusations of "slacktivism", basically hopping onto "justice bandwagons" without actually caring very deeply or being very knowledgeable about a subject. There have been questions about the "genuineness" of many of the people who rant about it online, or if they are simply doing it because it's a popular thing.
- Pathologizing their opponent, many people who don't have degrees in sociology or psychology, in the "movement" spend a lot of time playing arm-chair analyst with people they've never met on the internet, and attacking them based on what they perceive to be as psychological or mental deficiencies.
- Lacking sense of humor or taking some jokes too seriously, or the proverbial "making a mountain out of a molehille". The idea that some of the things that get brigaded against weren't really worth it, or there was no reason to get upset about it.
- Not being able to engage in constructive discussions and getting emotional or angry as opposed to being logical and arguing their points in a calm rational manner.
- The idea that many of them are just as hateful and mean as what they accuse their opponents of being, but simply reserve their bigotry for whites and men.
1. I mean, yes, that's a fair criticism. I think. A lot of times I perceive the social left online make some ridiculous points that they struggle to defend rationally because they have a line that they feel they have to hold, rather than they actually feel strongly about the issue and have taken the time to research it, and then they take no actual action beyond giving something a like or retweet.
2. This is also fair but it's human nature to find deficiency in people whose beliefs are so far from your own.
3. Absolutely. But here's the thing- the right's "humor" is rooted in hatred and fragility and insecurity. There's been the perception that the left, as typified by say Era, doesn't allow humor and is an echo chamber. But the right is worse. You can make fun of a few safe and soft targets, sure. But their humor doesn't allow for critical thinking or dissent! Look at the uproar over Michelle Wolf's jokes. Better yet, make a joke on a conservative forum about the military being welfare for lower-class whites, or about brute criminal cops, or about abortion... the right will fall to pieces. They have even less interest in truth-telling humor than we do on the left.
I think the bigger issue goes outside of humor and has to do with being more selective about our outrage on the whole. If you are willing to rise to a fever pitch over every slight then you are creating a "boy who cried wolf" situation.
4. This is true of both the social left and the regressive right.
5. LOL no. This is the old argument that being intolerant of bigotry is just as bad as bigotry. Fuck all that.
What OP says about how limiting the Internet is for discourse is true. You can't tell easily whether someone is genuine or not by the text they post. But the purity tests do not help. The inability to reach out to people who are in agreement with us on most issues but need to be educated on one or two things, is a liability. And I get it, you don't know who is being genuine and who isn't; who is concern trolling and who isn't. Still, when you draw a line and say, well everyone on the other side of this line is evil, you are alienating potential allies. That's contributing to the image problem as much as anything.
One thing I've noticed is how it seems like theres a competition of who gets to be a moral authority, especially if you're younger. Sometimes the arguments you hear are…not the best (mostly due to ignorance, ego and a lack of experience). Truth is always going to be justice, and getting to the actual ethical truth of any situation can be very challenging sometimes and tends to involve shades of grey more than b/w (sometimes it really is that simple, but often not).
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There are some people who take social justice too far.
But those are the vast minority. If you let those people color your image of social justice and turn you away, you never cared all that much in the first place.
But those are the vast minority. If you let those people color your image of social justice and turn you away, you never cared all that much in the first place.
There's a lot of truth in those criticisms, as far as the "discourse" around politics on the internet plays out these days. Everyone took the bait that Bannon threw in the water. Gamergate was the test run. Those criticisms now pretty much make up the things you can say if you immediately want to be labeled a conservative troll, so introspection about the issue is off the table.
I want to be fair and say both sides have their issues, but then i'd be "both sides" guy. Actually lemme correct that--the conservative internet warriors are obviously way more fucked up....crap, now I'm using a whataboutism. Too be fair, #notall people discussing politics on the internet are assholes...shit, now i've broken all the major taboos in one paragraph and mixed up to/too on top of it. Now I am surely going to be labeled a secret trump supporter.
Thankfully there's plenty of actual social justice work that conservative trolls on the internet can't and won't touch. unfortunately, the internet resistance isn't really big on it either.
At the end of the day, I'd rather have the current noise than no noise at all because if even one person is moved to get active in real life then it's a win, but goddamn is it a shitshow quite frequently
I want to be fair and say both sides have their issues, but then i'd be "both sides" guy. Actually lemme correct that--the conservative internet warriors are obviously way more fucked up....crap, now I'm using a whataboutism. Too be fair, #notall people discussing politics on the internet are assholes...shit, now i've broken all the major taboos in one paragraph and mixed up to/too on top of it. Now I am surely going to be labeled a secret trump supporter.
Thankfully there's plenty of actual social justice work that conservative trolls on the internet can't and won't touch. unfortunately, the internet resistance isn't really big on it either.
At the end of the day, I'd rather have the current noise than no noise at all because if even one person is moved to get active in real life then it's a win, but goddamn is it a shitshow quite frequently
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory generalizations, peddling disinformation, and a history of concern trolling in contentious topics
In the real world? No. I don't think I've ever even heard the word "SJW" uttered by anyone outside of the internet. People doing activism or volunteer work are encouraged and accepted.
In colleges and universities it's rough because people are still young and very headstrong. This inexperience shows but we will forgive it so long as things don't go to far. Some adults never grow out of that but at least they are few.
On The Internet it's a completely different story. Hysteria runs rampant. Half truths. Misrepresentations. Accusations.
Finding any kind of nuanced or reasonable conversation is increasingly difficult. People are determined to force their beliefs on others.
You can see this plainly on Reset Era. In any given thread about Social Justice issues there are a small group of posters who will predictably show up to contribute only the same kind of one liners that are either completely dismissive, accusatory or inflammatory.
You get to know the avatars and you come to understand that all they contribute is quick and sharp one or two line posts that have no substance. In my opinion these people are almost always simply arguing against nuance. Don't you dare try to understand and issue or try to weigh up different ideas. They'll be on you... "so you're saying..."
Even just doing things like making a clumsy comparison can result in a ban. Or maybe making a not quite right analogy? Reported then maybe banned.
There's basically a zero tolerance approach to any kind of comment that isn't 100% "correct" first time.
If you wrote 10 paragraphs and even one sentence is a bit "off" then that's what will be pounced on and not just to say "I think you are a bit wrong there buddy" but to completely go all in and try to discredit the poster.
Most people here are left leaning AND supportive of social justice causes and still for some it's just not good enough so you see a lot of in-fighting.
In real life there has to be some give and take to actually get anywhere with anything political. If you want to gain allies etc you have to be approachable and likable and respectful. You can't flip out just because people don't 100% agree with you all of the time. Nobody wants to be around that.
I had a more social justice minded friend on Twitter last year who was having an absolute meltdown because Laci Green was dating Chris Ray Gun. I never knew who these people were at the time but it turns out they are just (relatively young, I think) Youtubers. Who the hell is freaking out over 2 Youtubers, miles away in the USA, bumping uglies? Who the hell cares?
You mix crazy tantrums like that in with the "SJW" stuff and it does all add up to an image problem.
Whenever I see someone mentioning Nazis in threads on this site I just roll my eyes and I know for a fact I'm not the only one.
Problem is you just don't know who you are dealing with online. In a thread about obesity a poster became really REALLY riled up about fat-shaming and was being rude and unreasonable with people explaining the health risks. Turns out the poster was 9 years old. I had to laugh. You've got grown adults arguing with 9 year olds over obesity.
Again, in the real world am I really going to get into the "both sides" argument with a woke 10 year old? Probably not. A whiny brat with a bad attitude isn't going to turn me into an ally any time soon.
Despite all of that I'd MUCH rather be publicly associated with say a Laurie Penny or an Anita Sarkeesian than to be associated with a Milo Yiannopolous or a Richard Spencer, so there IS that! I think they are all idiots but if we are talking about DANGEROUS idiots then I think the Right is a far more pressing concern.
In colleges and universities it's rough because people are still young and very headstrong. This inexperience shows but we will forgive it so long as things don't go to far. Some adults never grow out of that but at least they are few.
On The Internet it's a completely different story. Hysteria runs rampant. Half truths. Misrepresentations. Accusations.
Finding any kind of nuanced or reasonable conversation is increasingly difficult. People are determined to force their beliefs on others.
You can see this plainly on Reset Era. In any given thread about Social Justice issues there are a small group of posters who will predictably show up to contribute only the same kind of one liners that are either completely dismissive, accusatory or inflammatory.
You get to know the avatars and you come to understand that all they contribute is quick and sharp one or two line posts that have no substance. In my opinion these people are almost always simply arguing against nuance. Don't you dare try to understand and issue or try to weigh up different ideas. They'll be on you... "so you're saying..."
Even just doing things like making a clumsy comparison can result in a ban. Or maybe making a not quite right analogy? Reported then maybe banned.
There's basically a zero tolerance approach to any kind of comment that isn't 100% "correct" first time.
If you wrote 10 paragraphs and even one sentence is a bit "off" then that's what will be pounced on and not just to say "I think you are a bit wrong there buddy" but to completely go all in and try to discredit the poster.
Most people here are left leaning AND supportive of social justice causes and still for some it's just not good enough so you see a lot of in-fighting.
In real life there has to be some give and take to actually get anywhere with anything political. If you want to gain allies etc you have to be approachable and likable and respectful. You can't flip out just because people don't 100% agree with you all of the time. Nobody wants to be around that.
I had a more social justice minded friend on Twitter last year who was having an absolute meltdown because Laci Green was dating Chris Ray Gun. I never knew who these people were at the time but it turns out they are just (relatively young, I think) Youtubers. Who the hell is freaking out over 2 Youtubers, miles away in the USA, bumping uglies? Who the hell cares?
You mix crazy tantrums like that in with the "SJW" stuff and it does all add up to an image problem.
Whenever I see someone mentioning Nazis in threads on this site I just roll my eyes and I know for a fact I'm not the only one.
Problem is you just don't know who you are dealing with online. In a thread about obesity a poster became really REALLY riled up about fat-shaming and was being rude and unreasonable with people explaining the health risks. Turns out the poster was 9 years old. I had to laugh. You've got grown adults arguing with 9 year olds over obesity.
Again, in the real world am I really going to get into the "both sides" argument with a woke 10 year old? Probably not. A whiny brat with a bad attitude isn't going to turn me into an ally any time soon.
Despite all of that I'd MUCH rather be publicly associated with say a Laurie Penny or an Anita Sarkeesian than to be associated with a Milo Yiannopolous or a Richard Spencer, so there IS that! I think they are all idiots but if we are talking about DANGEROUS idiots then I think the Right is a far more pressing concern.
One of the other problems is you have people like Shaun King, who try to become figureheads of movements and then do extremely shady shit like appropriating donations into their own pockets or entirely co-opting the stories of people who were hurt, sharing personal information that they did not want shared and blocking all forms of communication with them when these concerns are raised.
yes, because fighting discrimination and bigotry is somehow something I should be at all ashamed of as a minority? LMFAO bunch of obviously privileged and white ass mfers in here. Can smell y'all form a miles away it's so obvious. Go the fuck back to 4chan with that toxicity.Makes me fucking sick reading this bullshit
This is what any entitled group will never ever get. What it feels like punching from the bottom. Trying to control discourse from the top because you feel uncomfortable? nah
SJW need to pick their battles.
Going off as language police on campus is the wrong way to go.
But tackling real inequalities and injustices is the right way to go.
But nobody is going to win anyone over by jumping in some random's face and yell out "check your privilege!"
That phrase "check your privilege" has got to be the dumbest way to expand outreach or awareness
Going off as language police on campus is the wrong way to go.
But tackling real inequalities and injustices is the right way to go.
But nobody is going to win anyone over by jumping in some random's face and yell out "check your privilege!"
That phrase "check your privilege" has got to be the dumbest way to expand outreach or awareness
The worse thing is people painting everything has a political opinion. Some shit is just right and wrong
Feels like people go out of their way to find the friingest of the fringe of to paint the "left" with, while ignoring what the totality of the right has become.
Well I'm not white so...
You are the "social justice image problem" on the internet in a nutshell as far as I am concerned.
How exactly do you fight discrimination and bigotry? I'm curious.
Just to be clear, if this conversation was happening outside of the internet I'd be walking away from you right now. Too hysterical. Too aggressive. If you are not a child you certainly behave like one.
User Banned (1 Day): Hostility + Inflammatory dialog
what the fuck is this bullshit? you're a fucking asshole and for damn sure fucking privileged. Think you're sooooo smart and above it all, don't ya? point blank, you suck. And I could give zero fucks about image on the internet or in real life when fighting for the rights of equality for every person out there. And I definitely don't need to display my cred out there for your obviously trolling hating ass, that's for damn sure. Anyone Could spot you a mile away, breh.
Go back to 4chan I'm sure you and your enlightened thinkers will have a laugh about it over there.
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