Just finished watching Westworld season 2, which also deals with similar themes. I liked it far less than Season 1 unfortunately, but then again the season 1 finale blew me away.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Just finished watching Westworld season 2, which also deals with similar themes. I liked it far less than Season 1 unfortunately, but then again the season 1 finale blew me away.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it's very different from the Yul Brynner film I remember :D
/apologies for drifting off topic
My favourite reply to those kinds of statements is, "Yeah well, my boyfriend thinks your wife/girlfriend is wrong!". xD
Ok fair enough but you do know that that armor is for battle right? When you're out fighting for survival you don't give a fuck if you look cute or not. Cleveage and exposed thighs are dumb when fighting fighting with swords.
My cat thinks Weltall's cat is wrong. (thinkingemoji.gif)
The trailer sounds really interesting overall, all things considered. I quite liked how you see the old man is affectionate towards his old robot and outright rejects a newer and better model, for example.
I think Detroit could have been a much more interesting game if, instead of an "awakening" and having sentient robots fighting for their rights, you were in the boots of a robot based on a self-teaching AI and the story had you wondering for a good while if the android you're playing as is a full sentient being, or just using past experiences and patterns in order to make decisions. Nier Automata had a bit of this, but having the kind of experience that Quantic Dream does with the game messing with you would be interesting.
As science and AI progresses, androids are bound to start taking certain jobs, including those that include contact with other human beings like waiters, secretaries, customer service... Developers would try to make them act in a more human way in order to be more relatable by customers, and having a videogame using its interactive nature to confuse you could be something really interesting and hardly replicable in a different form of media.
If I had a choice I know I would instantly gravitate towards the armor the male warrior is wearing. I think many are discounting the fact many women/girls like to look cool, badass, competent, if not awesome, and that armor the male warrior is wearing is probably way more appealing to them than what the female warrior is wearing.
I'll ask my neighbour's cat when she's finished shitting on my lawn...
I'll have you know all her life my Canadian Girlfriend in Canada has always wanted to be a titninja and only in video games can her dreams become true.
I find that question in AI discussions really interesting, as that's a big chunk of what people do in order to shortcut decision-making time. Also a big problem in anime/computer game character design just based on regurgitating existing design solutions and trends as answers to the 'sexy character design' question from the director. Almost as if designed by an algorithm...
/seamlessly back on topic!
Very much so. It helps a lot that it's directed by Jonathan Nolan, co-writter of Memento, the Dark Knight movies and Interstellar, who already tackled themes related to AI like self-awareness, personhood, friendliness, etc. in the latter seasons of Person of Interest. It's interesting because Westworld explores themes present in Memento and Interstellar too; the former with regard of the role of memories in one's personality (and here, specifically, self-consciousness), and the latter... well, it might be a bit of a spoiler. :D.
It is also helped by the absolutely stellar performances of Ed Harris and especially Anthony Hopkins, who downright overloads the screen with charisma every time he appears. The rest of the actors are pretty good too, with special note to the actress that plays Dolores, more or less the main character.
To note, it's the first show (and among the few works of fiction, period) I've seen where self-awareness isn't treated like an on-off state, where AI suddenly crosses a threshold and gains sentience (with a 75% chance of deciding humans are redundant), but rather a continuous scale and a potentially long, gradual process. This process and the different points in it that different characters are at given points in time are pretty entertaining to watch and even guess.
This is mostly about the first season: as I mentioned, I was quite disappointed by the second. But the good news is the first season is more or less self-contained and conclusive, so you can stop watching right after it ends.
I like the acting analysis performed on a particular scene by Anthony Hopkins here (no spoilers), and it should sell you on the series pretty handily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSGkGKwp9U
God I love Automata but I really do hate this aspect of it o<-<
This is in the leaderboards for the xbox version of Nier: Automata...
*headesk*
*headesk*
*headesk*
edit: also read the first page of the thread about this and know I am absolutely not entering that thread again lol sigh
Ugh.
This is in the leaderboards for the xbox version of Nier: Automata...
*headesk*
*headesk*
*headesk*
I wonder how fast any given person would be dead if every time a video game did something offensive to women they had to take a drink. Hell, I'm not even sure there's enough alcohol.
A lot of eloquent stuff back at the thread about the leaderboards in question too.
I think adjusting the camera to look under 2B's skirt, which the game reacts to.
somebody explain what's going on here?
This is in the leaderboards for the xbox version of Nier: Automata...
*headesk*
*headesk*
*headesk*
You can look under 2B's skirt by moving the camera. Somehow people in the thread think it's a funny and praiseworthy idea that the game reacts to this and rewards you for it with an achievement.
We had a recent scandal here where the government tried to introduce a ban on 'upskirting' only to be blocked by a backbench Tory mp, Christopher Chope, who makes it his hobby to frustrate any kind of vaguely progressive idea. Fortunately it's being pushed through regardless.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ing-government-confirms-plan-to-introduce-ban
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ing-government-confirms-plan-to-introduce-ban
I mean, I don't really get the idea of it. I imagine the counter will go up as you move the camera around any way. When I played the game seeing 2B's ass was sort of unavoidable at times any way. I guess what I don't understand is the point of it being on the leaderboards. Is there any difference to having her skirt on/off? What is meant to be telling me?
When a player dies their corpse can be found in the another's game sort of like a bloodstain. You can loot it or rescue it for a temporary AI companion..
Some people will say it's for making gamers be ashamed. They forgot that a lot of gamers have no shame whatsoever, so it's going to be used to rank up hours and put it online and "trigger SJWs" (atleast thinking they are doing that)
I think it's that online death mechanic when you collect dead bodies of other players ?
You have to specifically aim the camera up 2B's skirt until she bats the camera away for it to count, about 5 seconds or so
Dumbest part of the game to me, especially since it's not even clever -- it was stolen wholesale from Lollipop Chainsaw
Ah ok. So it really is just a dumb gimmick for no real purpose other than saying "we caught you being a pervert".
It's actively making fun of players who would attempt to look under 2B's skirt for being filthy pervs, but it feels rather unnecessary. There's already a joke made at your expense if you're playing like a thirsty weeb in the game itself, (and it's hidden too, which is kind of the point) there's no point doubling down on it.
Part of me feels like I'm missing out because I'll never find these naturally and I generally prefer to play without guides and just trying to be thorough.
To be fair, that's like... most threads involving sexualized female designs.
I dunno if we can categorize it as "making fun" when it awards you with a trophy and even gives you an option to bypass the "shame" and have a skirtless character to get a better shot of her ass. It feels like yet another case of wanting to have the cake and eat it.
Also even if it's for making fun of them, it doesn't seem to work, considering a lot of the comments posted (unsurprisingly).
A game featuring a woman wearing low key fetish wear that allows you to freely peek under her skirt and blow up her clothes to leave her in her leotard isn't actively shaming anybody for being a pervert by acknowledging the peeking in-game, and if that was the intent then they were pretty dumb in the execution lol.
That's like saying a game that let's you walk into a girl taking a shower is shaming players because the girl gets mad and slaps you or whatever.
That's like saying a game that let's you walk into a girl taking a shower is shaming players because the girl gets mad and slaps you or whatever.
And considering how, when you look at the other thread, people giggled and celebrated doing this with pride and gloating, it's safe to say the "shaming" aspect is not only ineffective, it's disingenuous and likely never was the intention at all.
It's completely making fun of the player when the character you're playing suddenly breaks the fourth wall to tell you to fuck off and the "award" consist of a public display of you being caught red-handed going out of your way to look up a video game character's skirt, which cannot be done accidentally since the camera seems to discourage it.
Should it been a different game and a different way of acknowledging some player's... hu... tendencies, (Looking at you, Kojima) I would have agreed with the accusation of these stats or the initial easter egg being a tasteless celebration or at least somewhat hypocritical, but since we're talking about a game that treats its characters and subjects including sexuality in a tasteful and respectful manner despite both male and female design being ridiculously fetishist, I'm going for the mockery angle.
I'm going to address what I think is a bit of a misunderstanding first. I didn't imply that there was any attempt at shaming players here, nor do I think that should be the case. Why should you ever be publicly condemned for playing a video game the way you want in the privacy of your own home ? I mean, go on, have your weird fantasies if you so desire, you're not exactly bothering anybody.
Now I get that the joke seems to have fly above some people heads but I can't see how it actually matters. Someone not understanding why he is called out (even in a light hearted manner) or even being enough of a weirdo to think that there is pride to be found in being mocked by the developpers doesn't exactly change the intent of the joke.
I was going to say that I've completed the game without seeing the characters being objectified in any way even once but I'm being reminded that the self-destruction removes some of their clothes so, yeah, this one is just dumb, no argument here.
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Taro's definitely as frequently tasteless and crass when it comes to his treatment of female characters. He's just more honest about it. Regardless, the designs proliferated by Taro are sexist, and 2B is not an exception to this.
Because games reflect on more than just you in the privacy of your home. These games are objects for mass consumption, and reflect on the entire media. Meaning the availability of upskirting is a reflection on video games in a larger public. The achievement honestly makes it worse, because it presents it as a point of discussion while completely missing the point of the discussion (yeah, you know, upskirting, haha am I right?).
May I ask in what respect ? I haven't played the original Nier but I did heard nothing but praise regarding Kainé and the female characters in Drakengard are written and treated much like the male characters (And, fair enough, this does mean that they are completely insane) on top of having pretty good design chara-design:
I'm not sure I'm entirely getting your point. Are you implying that game characters should in no circumstances wear skirts ? Because that would be the only way to avoid the "availability of upskirting" that would reflect badly on the image of video games at large.
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Funny how you'd mention Kainé in the context of good and respectful character design, and then not proceed to post hers:
Also available as cotume DLC for 2B in the sequel
May I ask in what respect ? I haven't played the original Nier but I did heard nothing but praise regarding Kainé and the female characters in Drakengard are written and treated much like the male characters (And, fair enough, this does mean that they are completely insane) on top of having pretty good design chara-design:
I'm not sure I'm entirely getting your point. Are you implying that game characters should in no circumstances wear skirts ? Because that would be the only way to avoid the "availability of upskirting" that would reflect badly on the image of video games at large.
It's more that Taro can write good characters in general, even though his personal tastes tends to shine through their outfits. Even then, I think 2B is a good design, while Kaine isn't, though both are well written characters.
That would be because I wasn't talking about her character design ? If you read my previous posts you would have noticed that I've mentionned how ridiculous everyone's chara-design is in Nier automata and how it actually contrast with how well the characters are portrayed.Funny how you'd mention Kainé in the context of good and respectful character design, and then not proceed to post hers:
Also available as cotume DLC for 2B in the sequel
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Nier 1 is certainly Taro's best written game and I adore it but IMO Kaine is the low point in that game in the case of how she is presented (character still good). Supposedly she wants to show her femininity because of her backstory, but Taro didnt' find any other way around to express that other than having an overly sexualized design. But to add to that, her character goes against that idea, with Kaine being a closed person that doesnt want to express any emotion to anyone, let alone show her femininity (he even blames Emil for talking good about her because she "has a reputation"),
It's a case of the design going against the character, sometimes that happens a lot in case of sexualized designs (in characters that go against that image).
Btw, Drakengard 1 designs are pretty cool yeah. It's just worring (to me) how Taro seems to go more towards fanservice and "waifus" in his games, Drakengard 3, Nier Automata (all Yohras but 9S), SinoAlice... for all the original content he can do, he still seems to fall down to pandering designs.
Yes, in terms of that, I agree, Automata does a better job than Nier 1. I still wish Taro didn't put stones in his own pockets and go with more sensible designs.
Also uuuuuuuggghh I said Automata is better than Nier 1 in something! lol
It's a case of the design going against the character, sometimes that happens a lot in case of sexualized designs (in characters that go against that image).
Btw, Drakengard 1 designs are pretty cool yeah. It's just worring (to me) how Taro seems to go more towards fanservice and "waifus" in his games, Drakengard 3, Nier Automata (all Yohras but 9S), SinoAlice... for all the original content he can do, he still seems to fall down to pandering designs.
Yes, in terms of that, I agree, Automata does a better job than Nier 1. I still wish Taro didn't put stones in his own pockets and go with more sensible designs.
Also uuuuuuuggghh I said Automata is better than Nier 1 in something! lol
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Kainé's backstory is just the excuse for the act. I simply don't buy it, especially given Taro's growing history of sexualized female designs coupled with his own comments on the matter. I think this video sums up my thoughts:
If you stricly exclude Kainé from that equation, then that changes things. I apologize if I misread your statement.
If you stricly exclude Kainé from that equation, then that changes things. I apologize if I misread your statement.
The exception is not the rule.
Where in the world did I say that?
It is about the manner in which the game simultaneously brings the issue to the forefront but treats the objectification of females as a joke (it does this frequently in fact, including the writing and the exploding clothes).
That's my thought as well. Yorha's characters are a bit over the top in their attractiveness but they are at least superbly dressed. Kainé's outfit is just plain ugly. (And the posts above seem to confirm that the supposed justification for it is rather weak)
But my point is that it's not, in my opinion, the exception. I think there's a general agreement here that both Nier and Drakengard have well written female characters and that Nier at least... tries to do right by Kainé ? Does it mean that Drakengard 3 is your example of a game where Yoko Taro's treatment of its female characters is crass and tasteless ? (not a rhetorical question by the way, I've never played the game and did not try to catch up with its story through fans explanations like I did with Nier so I'll believe what you have to say on it)
I misread your post then. I thought you were chastising the game for even having "the availability of upskirting" (And since the camera already gets in the way of that there would be no way to avoid that possibility other than by changing the character's clothing entirely) but you're more critical of the fact that it goes out of its way to call out the players that would insist on doing it but goes no further than light hearted mockery, which is a fair point. However, I fail to see how the writing treats the objectification of women as a joke or even treats it at any point.
I kinda feel in the middle? It's an attractive piece of armor (love the gold and the general aesthetic) but I don't understand the dubious patches of exposed skin. I mean of course I get it, it's a game, so female armor is just gonna show that stuff off a lot of the time. I take it cuz I also don't really want massive chunky armor. Just a shame how often the girl armor often shows a LOT more skin...y'know even despite the hazards of giant monsters, evil magic, other villains and all that whatnot.
And as a woman I enjoy wearing attractive things that DO show some skin. I got a slit skirt, I love it, it makes you look!.. But games are really good at taking your v-necks and slit dresses and making "armor" out of shit like this:
Yep, that's how women dress alright.
You can definitely see male fantasy is waaaaaaay more appeased than females. Games are made with men largely in mind and seems to get a buzz off its own id for macho men and damsel women.
To be fair, Cia is a raging thirst monster and dresses accordingly. The amount of overcompensation she has in doing all things in HW is supposed to be comedic.
But you ain't wrong either, this outfit has one true reason and it's to attract the horny denizens of the Japanese gaming community.
Taro writes quirky characters, but to call them well-written is... I mean, I guess by game standards maybe? I find Taro's female characters to typically be representative of a female character with what would normally be considered to be dominant personalities. But the personalities themselves are still extremely flat and one-dimensional. If it's well-written characters in games, characters like those in Valkyrie Profile or VA-11 Hall-A strike me as being well-written (in that they strike me as characters, with conflicts and lives, goals and worries, interests and pursuits). Even then, I don't consider those characters to be extremely well-written. They are well-written, and there's still a long way to go to reach beyond that. I think experiential games have progressed much further, with the likes of Rez, Journey, and LSD. Those are games that expose ideas through play, while RPGs and other traditional game genres still largely approach their narratives through a filmic lens, which has significant disadvantages in a world in which a player interacts with the narrative. Games that come closer to using that filmic lens well tend to also be games that more closely follow filmic prescriptions, such as being linear or having definite time limits. But this sort of thing doesn't work for many games in which the gameplay often overtakes it, such as the writing in a game like The Last of Us or God of War 2018. For however potent it may be, it's difficult to write a cinematic game because games are not inherently cinematic. It's why a game like Mario tends to work much better with little or no story at all, than when it tries to justify the silly needs and the creation of a MacGuffin by means of Princess Peach (which also has the inherent problem of damseling and literally making her into an object - she's not a character at all at this point, reduced to that of a goalpost at the end of the game).
Taro ultimately strikes me as a writer who writes characters in a manner similar to the film Crash.
Admittedly, I haven't beaten Drakengard 1 (the gameplay was so boring and repetitive that I gave up on it), and while I've played the rest of the series and most of Taro's other games, I don't have a great deal of interest in going back and playing it.
I think you've answered your own question in this, as the gender construction of the characters is purposeless to them as androids. So them wearing fetish suits is nonsensical at best and the fact that it's never brought up as an issue is a huge shortcoming of the writing (and no, the explanation of "we were designed this way" is not an explanation - it's just an excuse for objectification). As for characters themselves, the female android that talks to 2B about falling in love is one of the worst instances where the writing is stereotyping women to an extreme (not that it's the only instance, just one of the more egregious).
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Which is exactly how I would describe Nier Automata's characters, (Although A2 is indeed one-dimensional for most of the game despite still being likeable and having a growth of her own towards the end) so let's agree to disagree on that game's writing, I guess.
I am playing Conan Exiles and I am very pleasantly surprised about the women in that game. They have hairy armpits, nice muscles, great variation in armor and the boob slider lets you make pretty small breast.
Gonna post a bunch of screens if you wanna see the male/female armors as soon as I can play at the same time as my SO.
Of course two of the most popular mods are "shaved females" and "shaved and oily females" (why?!) but at least the devs didn't go there!
A bit OT but I had no idea they kept the English version going! I might need to watch it now. I will probably not like most of at least the first season since I adore the original Swedish version. I have never seen an English remake I like more than the original, sadly. But if they kept it going they must have strayed from the original (which got 2 seasons) and that would be super interesting!
If you have not seen the original, Äkta Människor (Real Humans), I recommend it wholeheartedly. I bet the Swedishness of it would make it a very different experience for people that are not used to Swedish media, even if they have seen Humans.
Gonna post a bunch of screens if you wanna see the male/female armors as soon as I can play at the same time as my SO.
Of course two of the most popular mods are "shaved females" and "shaved and oily females" (why?!) but at least the devs didn't go there!
A bit OT but I had no idea they kept the English version going! I might need to watch it now. I will probably not like most of at least the first season since I adore the original Swedish version. I have never seen an English remake I like more than the original, sadly. But if they kept it going they must have strayed from the original (which got 2 seasons) and that would be super interesting!
If you have not seen the original, Äkta Människor (Real Humans), I recommend it wholeheartedly. I bet the Swedishness of it would make it a very different experience for people that are not used to Swedish media, even if they have seen Humans.
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