Sorry for going off topic, but this statement stood out to me for some reason. I can see the validity of it and I agree. However, maybe I'm ignorant but in what situation does the opposite happen, where you go too far right and end up at the left?
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Guardian: Sam Harris and Bill Maher are bigots
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Is he any worse to islam than he is other religions, he's always been pretty mocking to anyones religious beliefs.
Him sharing public thought is NOT an excuse for those views, but unless bigoted views are dismantled with concise and logical opposition, they will continue to spread and fester.
What's your point? It's not just the Middle East, homophobia and misogyny occurs in significant numbers in Northern European countries.
For example: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
How does anything you typed makes him less of a bigot? Speaks volumes about someone if not handled with baby gloves they will go full racist no?
The point is that the whole region has to have a better standard of living before anyone can really expect broad cultural religious reformation to occur.
Ezra Klein did. Then Harris proceeded to go on Dave Rubin's show and compare him to the KKK.
I did that! Probably not exactly what you're asking but I got really heavy into individualist philosophy, which usually starts with a hatred of the left because of government oppression and collectivism or whatever, but I kept digging and realized that these businesses are a threat to my individual autonomy as well, as are the political groups using individualism to get me to side with them, as is God, as are some of my family members pressuring me to fall in line, as are many far righters who can't do anything but cuck cuck cuck if you start questioning their talking points.
Next thing I knew I was getting along better with AnComs than actual right wingers, and I realized that my individual isn't inherently more valuable than anyone else's, and respecting someone else's individual opens them up to respecting mine, and it's in my rational self interest (fuck you Ayn Rand) to collaborate with others and try to build the world into a better place where everyone succeeds and where people can trust that those around them will give if there is need and my children don't have to pick up the bill on my irrational selfishness that most people on that side think is rational.
That article makes it clear there is an integration problem:
Fix the fkn integration problem
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Yeah this has been in full flow since after 9/11 really. The vast majority of muslims who are peaceful get tarred with the same brush as extremists. It does nothing but cause division.
That's great and your mum sounds like a great lady, but you're putting words in my mouth and discussing completely different things. I have zero issue with any of those things you just said.
Ding ding ding!
If you think Islam isn't adaptable to western way of living than you don't know many actual Muslims.
Apologies if that's not what you meant. But your post about "side with" kind of triggered me, it usually shows up in the "side with good Muslims that don't fit my perceived stereotype" posts. And there are a lot of those both here and on the old site, I was always vague in my responses though.
I'll delete it though, because I disclosed too much personal information.
The fact that people are taking such issue with this on a supposedly "progressive" website highlights a real problem with the discourse here. For a number of reasons islamophobia is significantly more acceptable here than most similar issues. It doesn't help that islamophobia is almost always immediately dismissed by a number of posters in a way that people wouldn't dare do with racism, homophobia, or transphobia.
There is a way to critique Islam without being islamophobic, but that's not a get out of jail free card to say whatever you want about Islam and not be islamophobic.
There is a way to critique Islam without being islamophobic, but that's not a get out of jail free card to say whatever you want about Islam and not be islamophobic.
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I don't like these bigoted pundits' obsession with us muslims and college campuses. It's not a noble cause. Who are you helping with your rhetoric? So you get conservatives to follow leftie bigots? We get it, you're not going to be with us. Why keep harping on your islamophobic views for years? We got the internet, it's all archived for posterity. We will always know your views.
User Warned: Inflammatory generalisation.
I'm sorry, if you are not anti religious, you are not progressive since you are defending dark age belief. You are reactions counter revolution forces
This is dumb. Someone can't be religious and progressive at the same time? Religion is not an on/off switch. People have a spectrum of beliefs. Even Muslims.
How can you be progressive if you believe in something that has been dicted by a superior being that cannot fail?
This is one of the most absurd things I've read on this website which is honestly impressive.
Edit: I'm actually laughing that someone could type out something like that and not realize how ridiculous it sounds.
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Because most people don't take religion 100% literally and can have conflicting viewpoints. It's how you can get Stephen Colbert who's a devout Catholic but supports progressive causes.
If you think the way you do, then you clearly don't know how humans work.
It's not a phobia to be afraid of a belief system that is subscribed to by over a billion people and endangers non-believers, homosexuals and women. Only 82% of Muslims in Indonesia condemn honor killings of rape victims? That's over 30 million people who think it's permissible in some circumstance to stone rape victims to death. 50% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalized? 27% of British Muslims said that they sympathized with the Charlie Hebdo massacre? This isn't the Middle East. These people shouldn't be radicalized. Sam Harris was not wrong when he said Islam was the mother load of bad ideas.
Even if only 5% of Muslims supported inherently anti-Western ideals and are what we'd consider "radicalized" (which I think is an extremely generous underestimation based on the numbers coming out of the Middle East), that's a shitload of people to be afraid of.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/
https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/re...sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html
Even if only 5% of Muslims supported inherently anti-Western ideals and are what we'd consider "radicalized" (which I think is an extremely generous underestimation based on the numbers coming out of the Middle East), that's a shitload of people to be afraid of.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/
https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/re...sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html
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Some of these responses ... wow. There is a defense force for anything, especially when it comes to people who like to dump on religion ( lots f people here are verrrrrry vocal about being anti-religion, no I am not religious myself )
User Banned (Permanent): Positive reframing of famine, hardship, and death
That is what manage to make France a much more laïc country through "déchristianisation" to reduce the influence of the church and clergy.
Same for Russia through the elimination of Koulaks and their allies.
Everything's just fixed ideas, y'all
Religion, the State, Family, Humanity, Rights, the Social Contract, Astrology, the list goes on and on
Just putting different names on a psychological phenomenon
It's all about what you do with it
Religion, the State, Family, Humanity, Rights, the Social Contract, Astrology, the list goes on and on
Just putting different names on a psychological phenomenon
It's all about what you do with it
If you think you're above random dumb metaphysical assertions impacting how you think you're almost certainly wrong.
Everyone has stuff like this. Turns out it's very hard, probably impossible, to truly be particularly rational. We do the best that we can, and we should measure people by their actions, not superficial litmus tests. I'd take a theist enacting change I agree with to an atheist agitating for things I'm against, like Harris and his absurd scientism, any day. And to preempt the ad hominem, I'm no theist.
I think that's a total cop out. Why subscribe to a belief system if they're just going to pick and choose what is convenient and what isn't according to their lifestyles and viewpoints outside of religion? When it comes to Christianity, you have the Old Testament and the New Testament. When it comes to Islam, you have the Koran. Are these texts the word of God or at least divinely inspired? If that's true.... What right does any religious person to say "yeah it's the foundation for everything I believe but that's old and not really acceptable anymore/*insert more excuses here* so I don't pay attention to it"?
Everything he says is/was applicable to Christianity as well.
As an ex-Muslim I can say that Islam is in a crisis now. Islamic countries are getting more conservative. However this sentence:
Is straight up bigotry.
Radical Islam is a serious threat but so is for example growing nationalism.
If I look at my friends and family who are all muslim they use their religion as guidelines of how to live a in their eyes a good life. They don't associate them with ISIS or any other extremist islamic club.
The biggest threat to these extremis is moderate Islam. We need to acknowledge and integrate moderate islam better. Once this happens extremists don't have a chance anymore.
Don't push people in the arms of the extremists. They are your sometimes fellow countryman. Serving in the same army and experiencing the same difficulties in life.
As an ex-Muslim I can say that Islam is in a crisis now. Islamic countries are getting more conservative. However this sentence:
Is straight up bigotry.
Radical Islam is a serious threat but so is for example growing nationalism.
If I look at my friends and family who are all muslim they use their religion as guidelines of how to live a in their eyes a good life. They don't associate them with ISIS or any other extremist islamic club.
The biggest threat to these extremis is moderate Islam. We need to acknowledge and integrate moderate islam better. Once this happens extremists don't have a chance anymore.
Don't push people in the arms of the extremists. They are your sometimes fellow countryman. Serving in the same army and experiencing the same difficulties in life.
Conservative Islamic views are more backward than most Trump supporters views. Anyone disagree?
I did not not Maher before, but I have watched some "religion highlights" of his on Youtube and I do not get it, he is not specifically targeting Islam, but is just in general mocking religion in his comedy show. Including the religiosity of famous Republicans. How is this bigot or even remotely comparable to real life actions against people who are from a country where many people believe strongly in one specific religion?
Man, I thought SmarterChild ended when AOL Instant Messenger went offline
Actually they are about the same.
American ISIS(confederates and neonazis)have existed for a couple hundred years now, they even have the government.
sounds about right tbh
anyway it's pretty revealing that some people here basically don't view islamophobia as an actual form of bigotry or, at the very least, take it less seriously than other discrimination
I would think so yes. As would be conservative Christian, Judaic, Hindu views etc.
Religion in general is bad - a tool to oppress minorities and be happy about it because God told them it was right.
Criticizing fundamentalist islam for the horrible shit it does? Perfectly reasonable.
Throwing the entire religion, associated (and some times even just ancillary) ethnic groups and people who are relatively secular under the exact same bus and refusing to make that distinction when those people completely outnumber the fundamentalists? Bigoted as fuck.
The latter is exactly what both Harris and Maher constantly keep doing. There are no attempts to qualify their statements or sow respect for the muslims who actively take a stand against fundamentalism - they would rather have you believe that everyone is a sharia-touting jihadist because that fits their racist narrative a lot better.
Throwing the entire religion, associated (and some times even just ancillary) ethnic groups and people who are relatively secular under the exact same bus and refusing to make that distinction when those people completely outnumber the fundamentalists? Bigoted as fuck.
The latter is exactly what both Harris and Maher constantly keep doing. There are no attempts to qualify their statements or sow respect for the muslims who actively take a stand against fundamentalism - they would rather have you believe that everyone is a sharia-touting jihadist because that fits their racist narrative a lot better.
I imagine even if his criticisms were a lot more mild, Maher's comments would still sound off to some because his audience is mostly American and the type of Islam he talks about is largely absent from the US I think. Even compared with Europe, aren't the average opinions on Muslims on "controversial" topics brought up in polls quite different than American Muslims?
Exactly. I do think Islam doesn't really pose a threat to the US, though. It's hugely overblown.
TIL that collectivization was good and ROC is nothing more than powerless old men.
The thing that pisses me off about Maher is his hypocrisy - ignore the effect of American interventionism in the middle east that does not allow for Islam to modernize like the other religions. Ignore the reason for the Israel/Palestine conflict and reduce it to Islam being bad.
I mean look at his confrontation with Glenn Greenwald here why Glenn is trying to explain this to him and he keeps ignoring it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYG7GR13DnU
And he has never invited Greenwald on his show again, nor has he learned anything from this conversation. It's still the same old Islam bad, Palestinians bad narrative that he peddles.
He's a fraud.
Why has this discussion become about the Middle East?
Am I the only one who expects Islam to be modernized by Muslims outside of the Middle East?
Why would they change their religion if that is what they've always known? It's much more likely to happen in a country/region where they come in touch with other people and religions and say "you know what, I like a,b, c from my religion, but x, y, z need to go".
That's Maher's problem, that a lot of Muslims apparently don't outright condemn XYZ ideas (honor rape, death for depicting the prophet) and I am sorry but he is right.
Can anyone imagine Catholic priests saying about children molestations "well what can you do!" and the Catholics going "yeah, we get it"? There would be an uproar. I don't see why Islam can't be criticized where it should be.
Well, that could be because race and sexuality are not a choice and not a faith/idea that can be criticized.
Race,sexual preferences, gender =/= religion, political ideologies. That doesn't make islamophobia a good thing of course, but there are some differences with homophobia for instance.
As an anti-theist even I have a hard time agreeing with this post. Religion has historically always been reformed over time, albeit often slower than the rest of society. I don't see why religion would inherently be anti-progress in terms of human rights.