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Clix

Banned
Punch-Out!! for Wii is a very strange game when it comes to this. On one hand, it leans very, very heavily on stereotypes. But on the other, I can't really remember anyone taking offense to it. It should be offensive, but somehow it managed to squeak by, and I'm really not sure how. Like it managed to somehow laugh with the stereotyped groups rather than at them.

It's an odd game. It really gets away with things that would get other games heavily criticized. Anyone got an idea why?

The reason why, and the reason why Punch Out is beloved the world over, is because it never does it in a way that demeans, but in a tongue in cheek, positive way. Also, the game is an equal opportunity offender. Meaning that it stereotypes everyone, even their own (Japan). It's a fine line, but people in general are funny. All of us. Stereotypes come from truth, but there are those that use it to demean and mock, and those that use it to celebrate all of our differences, which can be cool or funny or everything in between, and still be positive.

There are plenty of stereotypes of my culture that have truth to them, and they can be very hilarious when done in a playful manner. On the other end, one of my closest friends is of Swedish ancestry and really loves to eat, so we sass each other and I'll call him Swedish Chef and make the muppet sound. My best friend, she is German. When we are playful with each other, I'll tell her to shut up and go make me a strudel and pour me a lager or I'll ask her where she hides her lederhosen. In turn, she will ask me to go mow her lawn. Now, if this was one way, it would really be annoying, and if she was a stranger, goddamn offensive.. But it's not cause with our group, a varied bunch, it is a two way street. We have differences, and sometimes they are cool, sometimes they are hilarious and it's all on an equal level. We celebrate our differences.

The wife and I are the same. She's Italian American, and when she invited me to her house long ago for New Years, I asked her if I should wear a tracksuit with a Rocky hat to fit in. She will also play around with me like that cause Spanish family.... although I have learned Italian and Spanish families are almost the same thing being with her so long haha

Although funny story! I once joked around about the mafia just for the jokes with her, and I found out that her great grandparents actually had family connections and relatives in one of the crime families and that they had changed their last names to avoid association.
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Huh, I haven't played it in a while but could you elaborate?

It may have been on GAF, or the early days of Era that we had a discussion about Actraiser and colonialism/racism. As a Christian God, you are "clearing" the land of "indigenous" people, indigenous religions and making way for white Christian settlers.

This can, of course, be seen as a wild interpretation of the game. At first I was a little confused by it because not every level has a religious real world equivalent (mainly Bloodpool and Northwall), until I realized that the 2 bosses from Fillmore are Greek mythological beasts, Kassadora's final boss might as well be a pharaoh (the pyramid, in the JP version, features an mystic eye on it), Aitos' enemies are all based on Japanese/Shinto folklore and Marahana's second boss is basically a reasonable fac smile of something out of Hindu religion. In the Japanese version the giant skull monster, during the simulation portion of the game, comes out of something that looks like the Star of David.

This can all be seen as a stretch because its not unusual for games to use inspiration from real life and the color of the settlers could also be blamed on palette limitations.
 

Deleted member 2507

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,188
Morrowind is racist as fuck. They even use a bastardized form of n-word "n'wah"
Racism is arguably one theme in the game. The Dunmer of Morrowind are very xenophobic as a culture, and racism isn't limited to them either, with the Altmer being very snobbish for example.
But ultimately it is fictional portrayal of racism. Hard to call the game racist, being a fantasy work (though in retrospect i reckon "n'wah" should've been something else to avoid direct comparison to the n-word). Should fiction avoid racism completely? To be sure, that can be done badly, but i'm not sure avoiding it is a good idea.
In fairness, it's not exactly presented positively. The Dunmer suffer IMMENSELY later, in no small part due to their massive racism and slavery causing a violent but karmic mass revolt.
It's also made pretty clear that the Dunmers' racism/slavery is pretty fucked up. There's even an underground railroad.

I'd say Skyrim is a bit more racist with the stormcloaks.
And these are very good points. Morrowind does not glorify racism, instead it does make it pretty clear it isn't a good thing.

I wouldn't call Skyrim any more racist than Morrowind, racism is just part of life in Tamriel, unfortunately. Usually on lines of Men vs Mer, but not limited to that. Stormcloaks are overtly racist for most part, but i wouldn't say the Empire is free from racism either, there seems to be an undercurrent of "we should rule over these Nordic barbarians" with their attempt to rule over Skyrim, history and tradition aside.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
You don't even have to go that far considering how racist HR is.
That was really just the one scene. One awful, bewildering scene.

HR's biggest sin was showing a Detroit Renaissance, and all of the major players in the game are white. If, say, David Sarif were a black man, it would further cement the strides the city has taken as a major world hub for cybernetics manufacturing.
 

Deleted member 27921

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,735
Here's some official art of General Leo from Final Fantasy VI:
320

Yep.
In-game, they make his sprite look white.
Oh, and he gets killed.
 

Keeng

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495
I'm with you on JC2, but I don't remember JC3 well enough to comment. Could you remind me what happened in that one?

You go back to Rico's home country, which is made up for the game I believe, where more stereotype characters do illegal things and then you blow it all up. It's not anywhere near the questionable characterizations used in JC2 though. JC3 is basically just a stereotype of all Mediterranean countries.
 

Thebeast!

Banned
Mar 18, 2018
1,487
There just a general tone with most of the game's Chinese people either being the main characters who completely pass as Japanese and are only revealed to be Chinese as big twists, all of whom speak comically bad Chinese after the twist, or being sort of joke characters who are wacky, bumbling incompetents speaking in broken sentences, like the underground Chinese doctor or the gang of Chinese jewelry forgers in one side mission. It's just weird to have a key story beat about the pain of Chinese immigrants feeling foreign, coupled with a bunch of minor Chinese characters where their foreignness and broken speech is all part of the joke.
Oh i see yeah they did kinda fuck up the chinese characters
 

hwarang

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,452
Honestly the Japanese stereotypes was the only thing that really bothered me. Making fun of 50's America? OK. The hippie stereotypes? I can laugh at that. But former just felt like the game was crossing a line. I can't really think of anything else offensive. Is there something specific your talking about that I missed?

His point being is that the game was a satire based on a specific time period in which those stereotypes were more commonly expressed and... tolerated.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,227
Mementos
Here's some official art of General Leo from Final Fantasy VI:
320

Yep.
In-game, they make his sprite look white.
Oh, and he gets killed.
He looks white in this pic you just posted. is that really official art? The one I usually see of him is this one. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net.../8c/Leo.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120725053544
But I think I see it every once in a while. Some of the things about Barrett I don't like and I fucking hate Balrog so much. After II they really did some fuck shit. Real talk.
 

SPRidley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,238
The reason why, and the reason why Punch Out is beloved the world over, is because it never does it in a way that demeans, but in a tongue in cheek, positive way. Also, the game is an equal opportunity offender. Meaning that it stereotypes everyone, even their own (Japan). It's a fine line, but people in general are funny. All of us. Stereotypes come from truth, but there are those that use it to demean and mock, and those that use it to celebrate all of our differences, which can be cool or funny or everything in between, and still be positive.

There are plenty of stereotypes of my culture that have truth to them, and they can be very hilarious when done in a playful manner. On the other end, one of my closest friends is of Swedish ancestry and really loves to eat, so we sass each other and I'll call him Swedish Chef and make the muppet sound. My best friend, she is German. When we are playful with each other, I'll tell her to shut up and go make me a strudel and pour me a lager or I'll ask her where she hides her lederhosen. In turn, she will ask me to go mow her lawn. Now, if this was one way, it would really be annoying, and if she was a stranger, goddamn offensive.. But it's not cause with our group, a varied bunch, it is a two way street. We have differences, and sometimes they are cool, sometimes they are hilarious and it's all on an equal level. We celebrate our differences.

The wife and I are the same. She's Italian American, and when she invited me to her house long ago for New Years, I asked her if I should wear a tracksuit with a Rocky hat to fit in. She will also play around with me like that cause Spanish family.... although I have learned Italian and Spanish families are almost the same thing being with her so long haha

Although funny story! I once joked around about the mafia just for the jokes with her, and I found out that her great grandparents actually had family connections and relatives in one of the crime families and that they had changed their last names to avoid association.

And Canadian Next Level Games with Bear Hugger in the wii game.

Punch-Out!! is like Europa Park or EPCOT's world showcase, it uses sterotypes and constumes from a country's culture, mostly used now in some of them in their own festivals, and always in a playful manner. On the wii versiopn they even went the extra mile and used voice actors from their respective countries to voice each characters in their own language. My own country is touched upon of with Don Flamenco, and while i detest bullfighting (the killing bulls part mostly, and im pretty sure, and hope, it will turn be modernised in a not so far future) I laugh at our sterotypes shown there, because it has been part of our culture and fesitvals, and punch -out!! humours them in a really funny way.
Non of them are racist whatsover and trying to erase (from any media) those non malicious stereotypes (and im meaning here stuff like punch-out or world showcase) would make the world more homogeneus and a less interesting cultural place. Making a ruckus about this example in particular only devalues some other clear racists examples in this thread. AIt can also even make the country "defended" mad at some stupid decission or erasing because they didnt want to be defended, case in point, Mario dressed as a mexican in the original cover art of mario odyssey erased because of a north american decission.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,868
So he is a stereotype of Mr T, which is not racist. He was modelled after Mr T, who is a very unique individual with a unique style of his own.

So I suppose he is racist to the Mr. T's of the world, of which there is one.

You seriously think that basing one (1) black character on a popular black actor and acting persona is not a negative racial stereotype ? Mr. T isn't representative of black folks, just so you know.
 

Cheezeman3000

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 5, 2018
1,092
Just posting to remind everyone there's a distinct difference between purposeful story-based racism to make a statement, and development team racism that is seen through negative character portrayals.

If you cry racism whenever someone simply has an accent in a videogame, you are negatively affecting representation progress, and should probably check your own racism if you think everything is a stereotype. There has to be negativity associated with the portrayal to make it racist (the character trait has to be mocked or made fun of). This shouldn't be a free-for-all... crying racism is a serious charge, not to be taken lightly.

Case in point...
Mario: I don't recall the last time his Italian-sounding voice was portrayed as a negative character trait. If anything, it's a positive trait. Would need some concrete examples here, as someone simply having an accent does not mean they are a racist stereotype.
Wakka: His accent is never even referred to, that's just who he is, AND is consistent with the world as all of the Besaid Aurochs have the same accent. Would also need some specific examples here, as an accent alone does not equal racism.
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
You go back to Rico's home country, which is made up for the game I believe, where more stereotype characters do illegal things and then you blow it all up. It's not anywhere near the questionable characterizations used in JC2 though. JC3 is basically just a stereotype of all Mediterranean countries.

I think that's always going to be a pitfall with including fictional countries in a real setting. It's easier to define their culture as broad-strokes of surrounding countries, making it seem like a generic and often stereotypical South American/South-East Asian/Mediterranean country that we saw in JC 1,2 and 3 respectively. There's not a lot of nuance, especially when the story revolves entirely around battling their 1-dimensional tinpot dictators.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,868
He looks white in this pic you just posted. is that really official art? The one I usually see of him is this one. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net.../8c/Leo.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120725053544
But I think I see it every once in a while. Some of the things about Barrett I don't like and I fucking hate Balrog so much. After II they really did some fuck shit. Real talk.

The one you linked is an artwork of Leo and the other one is another of Amano's chibi art. The art is offensive but his life-size artwork is fine. I don't know why him being killed is of any contention like the quote mentioned, he's a great character with good morals in a corrupt empire.
 

Deleted member 27921

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,735
He looks white in this pic you just posted. is that really official art? The one I usually see of him is this one. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net.../8c/Leo.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120725053544
But I think I see it every once in a while. Some of the things about Barrett I don't like and I fucking hate Balrog so much. After II they really did some fuck shit. Real talk.

Yep, Amano did several "chibi" drawings of FF6 characters. Here's another Leo:
929a596d869968fb083e4a85867d1c6b.jpg
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
You seriously think that basing one (1) black character on a popular black actor and acting persona is not a negative racial stereotype ? Mr. T isn't representative of black folks, just so you know.
And why should Barret represent all black folks? He's just one individual character too. I'm sure there are all kinds of black folks in the world and some of them happen to be like Barret.
 

synthplynth

Member
Oct 29, 2017
121
Morrowind is racist as fuck. They even use a bastardized form of n-word "n'wah"

You are confusing legitimate story elements with real word racism leaking into game design. If it was otherwise there would be no difference between Schindler's List and Triumph Of the Will since both films have nazis in them.
 

M1chl

Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,054
Czech Republic
I fail to see how Just Cause is racist, when your main objective is blow shit up and save local people from tyrannical government. I guess I don't get how RE5 is racist, since all the bad guys are white and the situation in Africa is caused by them, as far as I know. Annnd.....I guess living in a almost all white country makes you ignorant towards some of the issues at hand, so I probably should see myself out.
 

Clix

Banned
You seriously think that basing one (1) black character on a popular black actor and acting persona is not a negative racial stereotype ? Mr. T isn't representative of black folks, just so you know.

No he's not, hence why I said Mar T is a unique individual with a unique style of his own. They modeled him after Mr T. Simple as that. No, basing him after a populous black man who has a specific persona is not racist. Unless you take issue with Mr T to begin with. No doffeeent than characters modeled after Jean Caude or Arnold. Which has also been a thing. It's because these actors are bigger than life. No one thinks all black people are like Mr T just like no one thinks all Austrians and Germans are like Arnold.
 

synthplynth

Member
Oct 29, 2017
121
Piranha Bytes is a definite offender. Risen 3 for example gets pretty awful with the gnomes all being voiced and written as extremely negative Asian stereotypes. Hard to tell whether they are aware of doing it or not.
 

Craymond

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,282
Portland
And sexism. I couldn't get into Infamous Second Son because the main character is judging Fetch's outpost in a billboard and it is RANK with shitty dialogue.

"Jane Eyre how typical...
Bras and panties everywhere
Make-up corner

C'mon, clearly a super male team. Lots of problems in that game including compelling enemies but that was the last straw for me.
 

McNum

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,195
Denmark
The reason why, and the reason why Punch Out is beloved the world over, is because it never does it in a way that demeans, but in a tongue in cheek, positive way. Also, the game is an equal opportunity offender. Meaning that it stereotypes everyone, even their own (Japan). It's a fine line, but people in general are funny. All of us. Stereotypes come from truth, but there are those that use it to demean and mock, and those that use it to celebrate all of our differences, which can be cool or funny or everything in between, and still be positive.

There are plenty of stereotypes of my culture that have truth to them, and they can be very hilarious when done in a playful manner. On the other end, one of my closest friends is of Swedish ancestry and really loves to eat, so we sass each other and I'll call him Swedish Chef and make the muppet sound. My best friend, she is German. When we are playful with each other, I'll tell her to shut up and go make me a strudel and pour me a lager or I'll ask her where she hides her lederhosen. In turn, she will ask me to go mow her lawn. Now, if this was one way, it would really be annoying, and if she was a stranger, goddamn offensive.. But it's not cause with our group, a varied bunch, it is a two way street. We have differences, and sometimes they are cool, sometimes they are hilarious and it's all on an equal level. We celebrate our differences.

The wife and I are the same. She's Italian American, and when she invited me to her house long ago for New Years, I asked her if I should wear a tracksuit with a Rocky hat to fit in. She will also play around with me like that cause Spanish family.... although I have learned Italian and Spanish families are almost the same thing being with her so long haha

Although funny story! I once joked around about the mafia just for the jokes with her, and I found out that her great grandparents actually had family connections and relatives in one of the crime families and that they had changed their last names to avoid association.
That sounds about right. Punch-Out!! does use stereotypes of everyone, but they also make awesome characters from it. And they're all dangerous fighters that demand your respect no matter how silly they are. None of them feel really hateful, it's more "This character is awesome because of the stereotype." And the one that did, Vodka Drunkinski is now Soda Popinski. And he is, of course, awesome. Until you punch his bottle of soda out of his hand. Then he gets utterly terrifying.

Honestly that latter part is probably a big deal in how they get away with it. In no way are any of the characters show to be weak or pathetic due to their stereotypes. Well, Glass Joe, maybe, but then you meet him in Title Defense and he has a high chance of taking you down because you won't respect him. You have to respect these guys or you will have a fast trip to the canvas floor.

I wonder if it helps that they all speak their national language. You don't get problems with awful accents if you just have them speak their normal languages.
 

TwinBahamut

Member
Jun 8, 2018
1,360
I don't think 6) is true.

Think Italy versus Rome. The choice was for a civilization that existed in antiquity and doesn't match up to modern Italy so Italy would be a terrible name for it. The same applies to Aztec/Mexico, at least as the names are used in English.

Sometimes you have a shared name, e.g. Classical Greece is the civilization represented (or more often some fusion of Classical and Macedonian Greece), but we still call the region Greece. Notably, however, there is also room for a medieval/Roman Greek civilization with the Byzantines and also room for the Ottomans despite them replacing and ruling over a lot of formerly Byzantine lands (i.e. the Aztec/Mexico example seems akin to asking that the Byzantines be called the Ottomans despite a massive cultural, social, and political turn-over as well as outside conquest).

Or take the Celts who represent ancient cultures all over western Europe and you can still have France, Spain, England, etc. despite them being in some of the games. Or take Germany/Holy Roman Empire with Germany being explicitly post-1871 Germany.

Also, the Asian countries are probably the most extended in time with, say, India having both Ashoka and Gandhi as rulers or China having both Qin Shi Huang and Mao.

I think you have a point wrt 1 through 4. The series does come at "development" from a western-centric worldview.
The problem comes from how Civ 6 moves away from doing things like that, but only for European countries. So, where we used to have both the Holy Roman Empire and a post-Bismark Germany, Civ 6 just has a singular Germany with a Holy Roman Emperor. Similarly, rather than have a Viking king be leader of the Vikings, he is leader of Norway. Instead of having the Celts, Civ 6 adds Scotland. With the sole exception of Rome, all European civs have been framed in the image of modern European countries and nations.

On the other hand, many civs from other parts of the world still use the older "slice of history" approach. So, we get Aztecs rather than Mexico, Nubia rather than Sudan, and Zulu rather than South Africa.

If the game stuck with one approach and used it consistently it would be fine, but using two different approaches with a racial element to which one is used has all kinds of uncomfortable implications. This double standard implies that some civs are "alive," and their history belongs to the descendants of those who lived before, while other civs are "dead," and their history doesn't belong to anyone but a museum.

The use of countries like China and India kind of have their own problems, but those are somewhat unrelated to this issue.
 

Soundchaser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,613
Warcraft 3.

The series has something of a problem in that the humans consist entirely of white men, while non-European cultures are used as the basis of the non-human races like Trolls, Tauren, Centaurs, and Pandarin. Heck, the only women that appear in Warcraft 3 are exclusively elves or half-elves.
Isn't Jaina Proudmoore human?
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,386
That sounds about right. Punch-Out!! does use stereotypes of everyone, but they also make awesome characters from it. And they're all dangerous fighters that demand your respect no matter how silly they are. None of them feel really hateful, it's more "This character is awesome because of the stereotype." And the one that did, Vodka Drunkinski is now Soda Popinski. And he is, of course, awesome. Until you punch his bottle of soda out of his hand. Then he gets utterly terrifying.

This is what I was going to post - the characters in the new Punch-Out are pretty stereotypical, but they also feel like full individuals with quirks and backstories, and they're all pretty respectable fighters. They're something you can be proud of, in a way.

It makes me think of Overwatch, albeit a lot goofier. Like, D.Va is a gaming obsessed Korean, Reinhardt is a hulking crusader, McCree is literally a cowboy. But they're all cool, badass heroes, so you can feel good about the representation and laugh at the stereotypes at the same time.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Wow, I wish the OP and responses were a little more focused. Not everything sketchy or offensive to some is outright racist. And having themes of racism in game does not equate to the game necessarily being racist. That said it is a interesting subject.

For me not only do I agree with the RE5 responses but I also felt Bo was a pretty racist stereotype in Binary Domain, a game I loved but had trouble playing more than once because of that character.
 

Deleted member 16039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
793

dcx4610

Member
Nov 13, 2017
120
Stereotypes aren't necessarily racist. Street Fighter is full of them. Is it racist to have a fat Sumo from Japan or an Indian Yogi? It's just a game highlighting colorful interpretations of different cultures.

Racism is claiming racial superiority or discrimination based on race. I think we are far too quick to call racism and be outraged for silly things.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
mostly the layout and environmental design. for such a specific city, it didn't look anything like the place - it was as jarring to me as if they'd have made manhattan semi-rural and completely disconnected from brooklyn/queens/new jersey. but hey, artistic license with an area the audience won't know - but still, i expect better out of ND and it legitimately has way more potential as a setting than the tiny enclosed museum they used it as

I can't remember that much about the guards, but I think their accents were more or less alright, so
Yeah that sounds weird, really interesting to hear

Uncharted 4 goes to Scotland and besides being brighter and more vibrant than Scotland almost ever is it was pretty damn accurate haha
 

hotcyder

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,861
???

I mean, Mumbo is a goblin man with a cursed head (well, i think they eventually retconned it, but the skull originally was supposed to be something Gruntilda did to him).

If you were gonna go with a BK series Shaman, Humba is straight up a native american racist caricature.

It was the Broken English and references to Voodoo and African Mysticism. As a whole package it's a bit dated.