Advice for someone thinking about playing Tactics Ogre: LUCT & FFT:WOTL?

oni-link · Jun 28, 2018

I need a new Vita game to play on my lunch break and I have both of these from a sale a while ago

I actually played 9 hours of Tactics Ogre in 2016 and bounced off it pretty hard, mostly due to finding it confusing and the gameplay really slow. I also read about the level scaling and that really put me off at the time

Because I didn't really click with Tactics Ogre that put me off playing FFT, so I've had it sitting in my backlog for a while now

In terms of SRPGs I've played Disgaea 4 and D2 as well as the two GBA Fire Emblem games, all four of which I loved, so really I just want some advice or tips on how to approach Tactics Ogre: LUCT & FFT:WOTL

Which order should I play them in, is there anything worth knowing before going in?

antitrop · Jun 28, 2018

They're both great, but 9 hours of Tactics Ogre is a decent amount of time, so maybe just give FFT a try.

Also Ogre Battle on SNES and N64 are both great, too, and very different from TO/FFT. You should consider trying those, as well. Not on Vita, but just if you can ever get around to them.

Aadiboy · Jun 28, 2018

FFT: WoTL is very good, you should definitely play it. It has some QOL improvements that TO doesn't have, which is odd since WoTL came out before LUCT. Also the translation is very good, one of SE's best.

Doom_Bringer · Jun 28, 2018

Final Fantasy Tactics is AMAZING. I beat the game several times on the original PSX. It was awesome on Vita and now I am playing it again on my android phone.

I wonder if Tactics Ogre is as good as FFT? I bought it for Vita ages ago but never got around installing it

Dreamboum · Jun 28, 2018

Doom_Bringer said:
I wonder if Tactics Ogre is as good as FFT? I bought it for Vita ages ago but never got around installing it

I find Tactics Ogre even better than FFT. It doesn't help that it received one of the best remakes in existence

Doom_Bringer · Jun 28, 2018

Dreamboum said:
I find Tactics Ogre even better than FFT. It doesn't help that it received one of the best remakes in existence

nice

oni-link · Jun 28, 2018

Dreamboum said:
I find Tactics Ogre even better than FFT. It doesn't help that it received one of the best remakes in existence

Would you recommend playing FFT first?

Maybe I should do that and try Tactics again after that

orlock · Jun 28, 2018

FFT first is probably the better way to go, as its very likely an easier segue into the general mechanics and gameplay systems of the games.

having said that, LUCT is legendarily excellent and absolutely in my top 3 greatest video games of all time and that was even before the remake.

PSqueak · Jun 28, 2018

The only advice you really need for FFT.

ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP FILE ON THE MAP SCREEN.

Don't sacrifice your first run to wiegraf like a lot of us did.

SolVanderlyn · Jun 28, 2018

Canopus is your best character in TO.

The story in both games is superb, BUT - you really should read the glossaries. They add quite a bit to the games.

FFT is easier to get into. TO isn't quite as good, IMO, but it's worth playing to scratch a similar itch when you're done with FFT.

Zen Hero · Jun 28, 2018

PSqueak said:
The only advice you really need for FFT.

ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP FILE ON THE MAP SCREEN.

Don't sacrifice your first run to wiegraf like a lot of us did.

Yeah, seriously. It's possible to get yourself permanently stuck if you save before an unwinnable battle in a situation where you can't grind.

The game allows you to save in between fights when going through a dungeon. There's no way to back out and grind in that case, so be sure to have a backup save.

Also along those lines, don't turn Ramza (the protagonist) into a healer or something. Make him some kind of offensive class, because he has to do a couple of solo fights.

PlanetSmasher · Jun 28, 2018

If you're playing Let Us Cling Together on PSP/Vita...

DO NOT. USE. THE TIME TRAVEL FEATURE. UNTIL. YOU BEAT. THE GAME.

For your first playthrough, the game has set enemy levels for every battle. This means you can overlevel if you're having trouble with a fight and swoop in and steamroll the enemies. The second you use the Wheel of Fate system to roll your story mode progress back to a previous arc, though, the set enemy levels are removed and enemies will scale to you instead. This makes the game much, much, much harder, especially if you're still new to the game and don't have a good handle on the mechanics or the job system yet.

It's also the game's way of saying stick to your choices, at least the first time through. Once you beat the final boss and see the credits, feel free to timeline-jump to your heart's content. But before that point, do not time travel or you'll fuck yourself over very, very badly.

Disclaimer · Jun 28, 2018

PlanetSmasher said:
If you're playing Let Us Cling Together on PSP/Vita...

DO NOT. USE. THE TIME TRAVEL FEATURE. UNTIL. YOU BEAT. THE GAME.

For your first playthrough, the game has set enemy levels for every battle. This means you can overlevel if you're having trouble with a fight and swoop in and steamroll the enemies. The second you use the Wheel of Fate system to roll your story mode progress back to a previous arc, though, the set enemy levels are removed and enemies will scale to you instead. This makes the game much, much, much harder, especially if you're still new to the game and don't have a good handle on the mechanics or the job system yet.

It's also the game's way of saying stick to your choices, at least the first time through. Once you beat the final boss and see the credits, feel free to timeline-jump to your heart's content. But before that point, do not time travel or you'll fuck yourself over very, very badly.

It isn't unlocked until you complete the game, IIRC.

PlanetSmasher · Jun 28, 2018

Disclaimer said:
It isn't unlocked until you complete the game, IIRC.

Oh, it's there. The game just doesn't really tell you about it until you beat the main story the first time.

Disclaimer · Jun 28, 2018

PlanetSmasher said:
Oh, it's there. The game just doesn't really tell you about it until you beat the main story the first time.

The WORLD time travel mechanic 100% isn't unlocked until you beat the game. You might be able to view the timeline before then, but can't travel between nodes, so he won't have to worry at all.

Tactics Ogre's Warren Report is the best codex system I've ever seen. All the history is just so delightful.

SkyOdin · Jun 28, 2018

I would suggest starting with Final Fantasy Tactics. The gameplay is somewhat less complex than Let Us Cling Together, with fewer units on the field at once and fewer nasty bottlenecks. It is still a pretty deep game, but I think it is more approachable.

If you do plan on starting with Final Fantasy Tactics, I suggest that you cut your starting team down to Ramza + 4 generic characters. That limits your need to grind up more than necessary and frees you to focus on story progression.

thetrin · Jun 28, 2018

PlanetSmasher said:
Oh, it's there. The game just doesn't really tell you about it until you beat the main story the first time.

Nah dude, you can't use WORLD until you beat the game.

kevin[ケビン] · Jun 28, 2018

Get an emulator and play the GBA Ogre Tactics: Knight of Lodis

Its story is smaller in scope then LUCT and its battles are much smaller in scope and will be a lot faster.

FFT is about the same size battles (4-6 of your own units vs 5-10 of the enemy)

LUCT is a very slow moving game and I felt like the PSP update to that game introduced more grinding and menuing time on top of a game with already incredibly slow moving battles.

LUCT is the one with the most immersive story, FFT probably the most engaging.

The GBA FFT advance / grimoire of the rift keeps the scale of battle low but somehow moves slower then the slowest Ogre Tactics Games and the story is always more of a Saturday morning cartoon, So I feel like the GBA TO game is the best compromise without starting off an 80 hour tactical rpg

If its really not an option then I would go for FFT and try to keep your party levels at pace with the story missions, I think they fixed the difficulty spikes in the remake but making sure people have some experience in Chemist / Item can make the impossible seeming story missions from Roadblocks into relatively easy romps.

Snormy · Jun 29, 2018

oni-link said:
Would you recommend playing FFT first?

Maybe I should do that and try Tactics again after that

I prefer Tactics Ogre but both are exceptional and excel in different areas. You should definitely play FFT first. It is easier to get into and far shorter. TO by comparison feels almost endless in content. TO is a far larger commitment. Battles can be much longer as you will eventually get up to 12 allies on the map +however many enemies. Not to mention you have Chariot to help you fix mistakes and retry and it can be easy to fall into the habit of playing dumbly and relying on Chariot's power. That said, once it clicks and gets going TO is extremely rewarding. It has a ton of content from hidden dungeons to recruitable characters strewn across three different story routes which you can use the time travel NG+ like feature to go back and recruit.

I think TO is harder to get into because there are so many things that it does a little differently such as magic, MP generation, turn order in battle etc. All of this leads to a massive information overload as you don't know what to prioritize.

You might also consider Wild Arms XF and Jeanne d'Arc as well.

oni-link · Jun 29, 2018

antitrop said:
They're both great, but 9 hours of Tactics Ogre is a decent amount of time, so maybe just give FFT a try..

Yeah it sounds a lot but I'd just beaten Persona 4 at the time so I think my impression of the game suffered a bit because of that too. It wasn't that it was bad, it's more that it was so slow and I was pretty confused the whole time with not really understanding if I was playing the game properly or not. I'm willing to give it another shot but maybe FFT would be the better starting point

PSqueak said:
The only advice you really need for FFT.

ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP FILE ON THE MAP SCREEN.

Don't sacrifice your first run to wiegraf like a lot of us did.

Yeah I've heard this advice before, and in general I'm always someone who makes backup saves and rolling saves just in case

1upsuper · Jun 29, 2018

I have been meaning to play FFT for YEARS but the endless PSX vs. WOTL debate (not to mention the translation sub debate) has kept me from actually picking one and playing it. Will I actually miss out on anything by going with WOTL? I have no problem playing the original but I happen to have a copy of WOTL already.

Paradax · Jun 29, 2018

Hack your PSP. FFT has slowdown issues whenever you use magic, but they can be fixed with a fan patch.

oni-link · Jun 29, 2018

1upsuper said:
I have been meaning to play FFT for YEARS but the endless PSX vs. WOTL debate (not to mention the translation sub debate) has kept me from actually picking one and playing it. Will I actually miss out on anything by going with WOTL? I have no problem playing the original but I happen to have a copy of WOTL already.

My understanding is that WOTL is the better translation but it has some slowdown on the magic effects

charlieman999 · Jun 29, 2018

PSqueak said:
The only advice you really need for FFT.

ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP FILE ON THE MAP SCREEN.

Don't sacrifice your first run to wiegraf like a lot of us did.

Listen to this man, keep more than one save, at least one on the map screen, if you come into Riovanes castle unprepared you will be fucked because there are three difficult battles in a row there, and you won't have the possibility to grind and you will have to start from the beginning of the game.

Disclaimer · Jun 29, 2018

oni-link said:
My understanding is that WOTL is the better translation but it has some slowdown on the magic effects

This is correct. Unfortunately, the definitive version of FFT is the iOS version, because it's WOTL with the slowdown fixed + HD sprites. Trying to play an SRPG with touch controls is super frustrating and slow in its own right, though, so it'd be best done on tablet + controller. We desperately need a port of it to modern consoles...

All that said, WOTL PSP isn't unplayable due to the slowdown by any means, and I would wholly recommend it over the PS1 version due to the superior localization and additional content. It fleshes out a fair amount behind the scenes.

Apathy · Jun 29, 2018

FFT is the superior game. They took out all the annoyances of TO and made the game fun.

The slowdown in WOTL is a shame, and the translation, while better in a language sense, is too shakespearean at times for someone like me that played thousands upon thousands of hours of the original.

I did find that after playing a shit load of WOTL, the slowdown just became the norm and I forgot about it, but the translation I could not. Plus the fixed the item dupe trick iirc.

My recommendation is usually ps1 classic > WOTL unless you want more Shakespearean English or just want it to look marginally prettier

tokkun · Jun 29, 2018

oni-link said:
My understanding is that WOTL is the better translation but it has some slowdown on the magic effects

Personally I prefer the original translation, even with its flaws. The WOTL translation is just so overwrought that it breaks the immersion of the game for me. I was frequently rolling my eyes at the stiffness of the dialogue. I appreciate what they were attempting to do, but the game really needs an editor to come in and tone it down by half.

charlieman999 · Jun 29, 2018

I also prefer the psx translation, and another thing that annoyed me when i played the android version was that the slowdown of the psp version was replaced with too fast animations when using spells and sword abilities, the only version with the right speed is the original psx one

Hu3 · Jun 29, 2018

tactics ogre op

Weeniekuns · Jun 29, 2018

FFT WOTL is the best all around Tactical JRPG IMHO.... other games might have better character designs or deeper strategy but FFT WOTL hits high notes in every area: fun and accessible gameplay, great story, great music, QoL, translation, etc...

1upsuper · Jun 29, 2018

Paradax said:
Hack your PSP. FFT has slowdown issues whenever you use magic, but they can be fixed with a fan patch.

oni-link said:
My understanding is that WOTL is the better translation but it has some slowdown on the magic effects

Disclaimer said:
This is correct. Unfortunately, the definitive version of FFT is the iOS version, because it's WOTL with the slowdown fixed + HD sprites. Trying to play an SRPG with touch controls is super frustrating and slow in its own right, though, so it'd be best done on tablet + controller. We desperately need a port of it to modern consoles...

All that said, WOTL PSP isn't unplayable due to the slowdown by any means, and I would wholly recommend it over the PS1 version due to the superior localization and additional content. It fleshes out a fair amount behind the scenes.

Apathy said:
FFT is the superior game. They took out all the annoyances of TO and made the game fun.

The slowdown in WOTL is a shame, and the translation, while better in a language sense, is too shakespearean at times for someone like me that played thousands upon thousands of hours of the original.

I did find that after playing a shit load of WOTL, the slowdown just became the norm and I forgot about it, but the translation I could not. Plus the fixed the item dupe trick iirc.

My recommendation is usually ps1 classic > WOTL unless you want more Shakespearean English or just want it to look marginally prettier

tokkun said:
Personally I prefer the original translation, even with its flaws. The WOTL translation is just so overwrought that it breaks the immersion of the game for me. I was frequently rolling my eyes at the stiffness of the dialogue. I appreciate what they were attempting to do, but the game really needs an editor to come in and tone it down by half.

charlieman999 said:
I also prefer the psx translation, and another thing that annoyed me when i played the android version was that the slowdown of the psp version was replaced with too fast animations when using spells and sword abilities, the only version with the right speed is the original psx one

Snormy · Jun 29, 2018

There will always be debates over preferences because each has different flaws. Ultimately you can't really go wrong with any of them and liking or even disliking one might not mean the same for other.

WallSniper · Jun 29, 2018

Both are 10/10 and we need more like them

leder · Jun 29, 2018

LUCT is probably a good game, but I just don't have high a high tolerance for the huge amounts of grinding the game puts in front of you. Hiding so many strategic options behind grinding classes and skills just always seemed like an awful way to do an SRPG to me.

Disclaimer · Jun 29, 2018

LUCT's main story requires no grinding, but yeah, its leveling system is puzzlingly inefficient, seemingly designed around units dying often, when permanent death is a practical impossibility.

It really deflates the excitement of acquiring new units with unique classes, who are extremely powerful lore-wise, only to start at level 1.

CaptainK · Jun 29, 2018

Both games feature numerous jobs/classes, but some are definitely better than others, namely calculators in FFT and archers in LUCT. There's also certain story characters that are better and worth using, namely Orlandu in FFT and Canopus in LUCT. So if you want a smooth(er) experience, do a bit of research and just pick the better jobs/classes and characters.

leder · Jun 29, 2018

Disclaimer said:
LUCT's main story requires no grinding, but yeah, its leveling system is puzzlingly inefficient, seemingly designed around units dying often, when permanent death is a practical impossibility.

It really deflates the excitement of acquiring new units with unique classes, who are extremely powerful lore-wise, only to start at level 1.

I don't necessarily mean grinding in the sense of going off the path of the main story and fighting mobs forever, just that you're always grinding a dozen different stats and meters to try and get some interesting tools/classes/skills to employ. Whenever I pick back up on my playthrough, I feel more compelled to keep playing to make numbers go up than to actually experience the gameplay and story.

GeekyDad · Jul 12, 2018

oni-link said:
...I actually played 9 hours of Tactics Ogre in 2016 and bounced off it pretty hard, mostly due to finding it confusing and the gameplay really slow...

In terms of SRPGs I've played Disgaea 4 and D2...which I loved...

Did you ever resolve to pick TO back up? It's interesting that you found it confusing but loved the Disgaea games. I guess to be fair, Disgaea isn't really all that confusing, it just has sooooooooo much stuff going on. It's a very deep series gameplay-wise.

In any event, TO can definitely be confusing. I don't feel like I fully grasped everything until my second playthrough. I guess I would recommend to new players that they focus on just a handful of classes, don't worry about recruiting random units, and pay no attention to crafting until post-game (when you get recipes that are worth the hassle crafting requires). It's another great story, so I say let that be your focus. Get down some of the game's fundamentals, and go from there. Most story battles don't require that you kill all units on the map, so if you can defeat the main objective quick, do so. Also, focus on the most practical skills, leveling up your weapon skill and anatomy. I've logged about 600 hours total over various playthroughs over the years. It's a great game, but even 9 hours isn't really enough to "get it." Either come back to it when the mood strikes, or give it more time. But it's absolutely worth it. As much of an addition FFT can be, TO is much greater.

oni-link · Jul 12, 2018

GeekyDad said:
Did you ever resolve to pick TO back up? It's interesting that you found it confusing but loved the Disgaea games. I guess to be fair, Disgaea isn't really all that confusing, it just has sooooooooo much stuff going on. It's a very deep series gameplay-wise.

In any event, TO can definitely be confusing. I don't feel like I fully grasped everything until my second playthrough. I guess I would recommend to new players that they focus on just a handful of classes, don't worry about recruiting random units, and pay no attention to crafting until post-game (when you get recipes that are worth the hassle crafting requires). It's another great story, so I say let that be your focus. Get down some of the game's fundamentals, and go from there. Most story battles don't require that you kill all units on the map, so if you can defeat the main objective quick, do so. Also, focus on the most practical skills, leveling up your weapon skill and anatomy. I've logged about 600 hours total over various playthroughs over the years. It's a great game, but even 9 hours isn't really enough to "get it." Either come back to it when the mood strikes, or give it more time. But it's absolutely worth it. As much of an addition FFT can be, TO is much greater.

Not yet, but I think I will get back to it soon

The Disgaea games are really fast paced and you can easily grind if you're stuck and brute force your way past levels. After a few hours of that the systems all just clicked for me

DeepChord · Jul 12, 2018

Don't trust anyone saying FFT is the superior game.

GeekyDad · Jul 12, 2018

oni-link said:
Not yet, but I think I will get back to it soon

The Disgaea games are really fast paced and you can easily grind if you're stuck and brute force your way past levels. After a few hours of that the systems all just clicked for me

Yeah, I kinda had the opposite experience the first time I dived into Disgaea. There's so much to keep track of and remember, but once I dedicated myself to playing, yeah, it's simply delicious. Plus, the artwork and sense of humor was a great change of pace.

Hope you do eventually decide to give TO another try. It's kinda of a hobby of its own. It becomes a bit like old-school pen-and-paper D&D in that it can entertain for months on end, or even years.

B.K. · Jul 12, 2018

The main question is what version of Tactics Ogre were you playing? The PSP version is terrible. They ruined it with the gameplay changes. The SNES or PS1 versions are far better than the PSP version.

jay · Jul 12, 2018

I recently finished TO and found it to be pretty boring gameplay-wise. The systems in FFT are hugely more fun and it's one of my favorite games.

Edit - maybe I should try the SFC/PS1 version one day.

Disclaimer · Jul 12, 2018

B.K. said:
The main question is what version of Tactics Ogre were you playing? The PSP version is terrible. They ruined it with the gameplay changes. The SNES or PS1 versions are far better than the PSP version.

...Haha, no. The localization and improvements of the PSP remaster are difficult to overstate. It's one of the highest quality remasters in history.

It did change the level up mechanics, which I personally dislike, but it's not difficult to optimize.

Count of Monte Sawed-Off · Jul 12, 2018

jay said:
I recently finished TO and found it to be pretty boring gameplay-wise. The systems in FFT are hugely more fun and it's one of my favorite games.

Edit - maybe I should try the SFC/PS1 version one day.

Definitely this.

RedSwirl · Jul 12, 2018

WOTL has been sitting on my iPhone for a while, and the LUCT UMD has been sitting in my PSP 1000 for about as long. I should get to them sometime.

Quinton · Jul 12, 2018

Both games are fantastic and the zenith of Yasumi Matsuno. The ZENITH of MATSUNO.

LUCT is the only version of TO I've played, but I still feel comfortable labeling it the best remake I've ever played. That's how much it impressed me. And while it's a shame WOTL suffers slowdown on PSP, I'll personally take that over touch controls on mobile -- like someone else said, we desperately need a modern console port, heh.

zoodoo · Jul 12, 2018

OP I am in the same boat as you. But as I am just wrapping up Jeanne Darc I will take a break before starting any of them. Also dont pass on jeanne d'arc it's pretty good.

Advice for someone thinking about playing Tactics Ogre: LUCT & FFT:WOTL?

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