I think redemption is a personal thing between those that are wronged and the persons that did the wrong.
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Can people be redeemed?
- Thread starter Deleted member 32374
- Start date
Yes. People can atone for past misdeeds, despite what popular opinion around here says otherwise.
It'll take quite alot of hard work and effort to earn people's trust, some people will never forget your actions so you'd have to live with that.
It'll take quite alot of hard work and effort to earn people's trust, some people will never forget your actions so you'd have to live with that.
If you're seeking redemption you shouldn't be looking for forgiveness, because if you're really trying to be better you've got to put what people think past you and do it for yourself, not them. So I'd say forgiveness doesn't matter, but again I don't think OP actually means redemption.
Yes, although that will, unfortunately, be the minority of replies in this thread. For as progressive as Resetara likes to think of itself, it's generally awfully archaic when it comes to punishing 'bad' people. There's a lot of wishing for revenge which is never good. One would think movies/games have taught us as much.
There is no crime that's irredeemable. As someome has mentioned here, a true prison's task is to rehabilitate its prisoners, not punish them. Once somebody is rehabilitated, she's free to return to society. So no matter what crime one committed, once psychologists say 'you're fine now', you should be fine. And thus deserve to return to society. And moral parameters, feeling of guilt and such, us a whole different issue.
Personally, I'm sick of how convicted rapists are treated in our society. It often feels they're worse than murderers, which is just bs. Then they're released, did their time, got a psychologist's approval, and what happens? The whole world is informed 'here now lives a former rapist'.That's just inhumane and counterproductive to the whole rehabilitation procedure. If a former criminal is still being treated like a criminal after having done his time, why what would motivate him not to become a criminal again? Oh right, that's exactly what happens in many cases ...
When it comes to severe crimes, people lose sight of reality in regards to punishment. "Lock him up forever" is such an easy thing to say - but 'forever' is a crazy long time. It makes me laugh when in the course of tge many debates people throw around number of years as if it's trivial. "5 years?! He deserves at least 10!". As if any of us could even begin to imagine what it'd feel like to spend just one year in prison. And then one of those hellish US-prisons, not a nice Swedish one. Sheesh.
But it's just severe crimes where too many people lack perspective when it comes to the question at hand. If it was up to a majority if Resetara members, any Trump supporter be ruined. Take away their jobs, silence them completely, and ultimately don't give a sh** about whatever happens to them. And that's just people who voice a different belief. If not even those are redeemable, it shows how terrible the current state of things has become.
People in general need to anew to be more forgiving, to ignore when something is about to escalate, and to talk things out calmly. Unfortunately, open conflict and divide are the norm right now, and nobody wants to make things better for everyone. It's honestly pretty frustrating for someone like me who's in-between these extremes, being attacked by both sides often :) But to answer the OP's question again: Yes, people are redeemable, always. Sometimes it takes more time, sometimes less.
There is no crime that's irredeemable. As someome has mentioned here, a true prison's task is to rehabilitate its prisoners, not punish them. Once somebody is rehabilitated, she's free to return to society. So no matter what crime one committed, once psychologists say 'you're fine now', you should be fine. And thus deserve to return to society. And moral parameters, feeling of guilt and such, us a whole different issue.
Personally, I'm sick of how convicted rapists are treated in our society. It often feels they're worse than murderers, which is just bs. Then they're released, did their time, got a psychologist's approval, and what happens? The whole world is informed 'here now lives a former rapist'.That's just inhumane and counterproductive to the whole rehabilitation procedure. If a former criminal is still being treated like a criminal after having done his time, why what would motivate him not to become a criminal again? Oh right, that's exactly what happens in many cases ...
When it comes to severe crimes, people lose sight of reality in regards to punishment. "Lock him up forever" is such an easy thing to say - but 'forever' is a crazy long time. It makes me laugh when in the course of tge many debates people throw around number of years as if it's trivial. "5 years?! He deserves at least 10!". As if any of us could even begin to imagine what it'd feel like to spend just one year in prison. And then one of those hellish US-prisons, not a nice Swedish one. Sheesh.
But it's just severe crimes where too many people lack perspective when it comes to the question at hand. If it was up to a majority if Resetara members, any Trump supporter be ruined. Take away their jobs, silence them completely, and ultimately don't give a sh** about whatever happens to them. And that's just people who voice a different belief. If not even those are redeemable, it shows how terrible the current state of things has become.
People in general need to anew to be more forgiving, to ignore when something is about to escalate, and to talk things out calmly. Unfortunately, open conflict and divide are the norm right now, and nobody wants to make things better for everyone. It's honestly pretty frustrating for someone like me who's in-between these extremes, being attacked by both sides often :) But to answer the OP's question again: Yes, people are redeemable, always. Sometimes it takes more time, sometimes less.
I think we're in agreement. What I meant is that the OP seems to be talking about other people forgiving someone, and not that someone achieving redemption - which is something that would exist only within their own consciousness.
Yes.
Very few people are just purely evil or have untreatable mental conditions etc. Most people who do bad things were just in a bad place, had mental illness untreated, substance abuse problems etc. in some combination. There's tons of research evidence on effective rehabilitation programs/treatments that show people can get right and stay out of trouble in the future as well.
It's a different question of whether other people can forgive them and accept them as a "good" person after they are rehabilitated though, if that's what you mean by redeemed. Plenty of people can never forgive certain acts and support the death penalty, life in prison with no chance of release etc.
Very few people are just purely evil or have untreatable mental conditions etc. Most people who do bad things were just in a bad place, had mental illness untreated, substance abuse problems etc. in some combination. There's tons of research evidence on effective rehabilitation programs/treatments that show people can get right and stay out of trouble in the future as well.
It's a different question of whether other people can forgive them and accept them as a "good" person after they are rehabilitated though, if that's what you mean by redeemed. Plenty of people can never forgive certain acts and support the death penalty, life in prison with no chance of release etc.
I remember this discussion. :D
But same as last time, yes, but there's also the question of in whose eyes, and what the offense was.
There's a lot of different ways to interpret this.
But same as last time, yes, but there's also the question of in whose eyes, and what the offense was.
There's a lot of different ways to interpret this.
I have a line, that once crossed you can't comeback from and I'll cut you out of my life entirely.
Camp three: resocialization, tranformative justice, Very few criminal punishment. (Criminal minimalism)
Camp four: no punishment only ressocialization, and civil punishment (criminal abolishment)
Camp four: no punishment only ressocialization, and civil punishment (criminal abolishment)
I work in restorative justice. I know for a fact that the possibility is there for anyone to be reintegrated into society, but it is dependent on more people than just the immediate victim and offender. Members of the community and others close to the issue need to also be interested in having a conversation. Harm creates needs and obligations, dialogue is the best way to get to the bottom of it and determine who needs to do what. The power of dialogue, when facilitated by someone who knows what they are doing, cannot be overstated.
The only caveat is that it has to be voluntary for all involved. If an agreement is not reached in good faith it is not going to be followed, no mater what paperwork is signed.
The only caveat is that it has to be voluntary for all involved. If an agreement is not reached in good faith it is not going to be followed, no mater what paperwork is signed.
Yes, I think so.
I don't think to be redeamed is to go back to innocence or something, but rather to become a greater person than you were through redemption. This is a theme in nearly every human medium, and it's one that I believe is true. I'm not a religious person, but there's a strong reason why redemption is such a dominant theme in every major human religion, you don't have to have faith in the particulars of that religion to understand the greater theme of redemption. Likewise in almost all great art (literature, movies, even good videogames). There are few heroic characters in fiction who don't go through some redemption story.
I also think forgiving is important, if you're a person who has been wronged. Forgiving doesn't mean normalizing or rationalizing, it means forgiving. Forgiving doesn't mean moving on. Forgiveness is not a passive act, or a dismissive act, it's an active decision that you practice every day. Forgiveness is hard, and there's a process to forgiveness: part of that process can be saying "fuck you, I'm not forgiving you," and maybe it's too hard and there's too little time or the transgression is too important given the lack of time to move through "Fuck you" to "I forgive you." That's not dismissing forgiveness, for a lot of transgressions saying fuck you is the first phase of saying I forgive you.
Asking for forgiveness does not mean making excuses. "I'm sorry, but..." is not asking for forgiveness, it's using forgiveness as a trope to place further blame and rationalize why you're not sorry. "I apologize," is not saying you're sorry to someone, it's rationalizing your hurtful behavior and trying to explain it away.
I think the internet makes redemption difficult. The internet is more imposing than St. Peter checking a list of your transgressions, or balancing your soul against the weight of a feather. If you do wrong, on the internet, there will always be a hypocrite there to drag you down if you try to do right. It's worse than a permanent ledger. A ledger is honest and accurate. THe internet is dishonest and hyperbolic.
I don't think to be redeamed is to go back to innocence or something, but rather to become a greater person than you were through redemption. This is a theme in nearly every human medium, and it's one that I believe is true. I'm not a religious person, but there's a strong reason why redemption is such a dominant theme in every major human religion, you don't have to have faith in the particulars of that religion to understand the greater theme of redemption. Likewise in almost all great art (literature, movies, even good videogames). There are few heroic characters in fiction who don't go through some redemption story.
I also think forgiving is important, if you're a person who has been wronged. Forgiving doesn't mean normalizing or rationalizing, it means forgiving. Forgiving doesn't mean moving on. Forgiveness is not a passive act, or a dismissive act, it's an active decision that you practice every day. Forgiveness is hard, and there's a process to forgiveness: part of that process can be saying "fuck you, I'm not forgiving you," and maybe it's too hard and there's too little time or the transgression is too important given the lack of time to move through "Fuck you" to "I forgive you." That's not dismissing forgiveness, for a lot of transgressions saying fuck you is the first phase of saying I forgive you.
Asking for forgiveness does not mean making excuses. "I'm sorry, but..." is not asking for forgiveness, it's using forgiveness as a trope to place further blame and rationalize why you're not sorry. "I apologize," is not saying you're sorry to someone, it's rationalizing your hurtful behavior and trying to explain it away.
I think the internet makes redemption difficult. The internet is more imposing than St. Peter checking a list of your transgressions, or balancing your soul against the weight of a feather. If you do wrong, on the internet, there will always be a hypocrite there to drag you down if you try to do right. It's worse than a permanent ledger. A ledger is honest and accurate. THe internet is dishonest and hyperbolic.
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Yeah, I would agree with that.
What's wrong with Daryl Davis, though?
I wanted to make a thread like this, but was never sure how to word it.
I feel like there's a societal line, the crime itself, the age it was committed. It's easy to look at public figures in power you don't know and "cancel" them when they do something you don't like, but we never talk about the people right next to us who might have transgressions of that nature, close friends, family.
It's ultimately up to a victim, if they want to forgive the person who hurt them, but there's also the people who know about the transgression also watching with an opinion of their own.
I believe people can change if they want to. You are not the worst thing you've ever done.
I feel like there's a societal line, the crime itself, the age it was committed. It's easy to look at public figures in power you don't know and "cancel" them when they do something you don't like, but we never talk about the people right next to us who might have transgressions of that nature, close friends, family.
It's ultimately up to a victim, if they want to forgive the person who hurt them, but there's also the people who know about the transgression also watching with an opinion of their own.
I believe people can change if they want to. You are not the worst thing you've ever done.
Most people can be reintegrated into society IMO. Europe is much less punitive than the USA and there's still less crime and much less recidivism. The US system actually actively works AGAINST reintegration.
On forgiveness, it depends on the person and the exact circumstances. A victim shouldn't be entitled to forgive someone who hurt them. But if the transgressor wants to move on into wider society and seriously reform themselves and leave the victim alone forever then they should be able to do that.
On forgiveness, it depends on the person and the exact circumstances. A victim shouldn't be entitled to forgive someone who hurt them. But if the transgressor wants to move on into wider society and seriously reform themselves and leave the victim alone forever then they should be able to do that.
There is nothing actually wrong with him. But using him as an example of how racists should be approached and spoken to is not realistic. Like I said he is the exception not the rule.
I made the same mistake and used him as an example in the past, but I caught alot of flak over it which I didn't understand at the time. After doing some research and listening to other people and threads I see now that while what he has done is great and I applaud him for his determination and his patience it's not reasonable to expect the same out of other people. He should not be the rule.
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Yeah, you're right. I mean, how many years did he know that Klan leader before he hung up his robes?
I guess it's also naive to think that you can dig out deeply entrenched racism in one person in a reasonable amount of time. Playing the slow game doesn't seem to be working, and things are still ramping up.
Highly debateable that he's done anything at all...
I mean he went to bat for his supposedly Ex-KKK who you know got arrested in Charlottesville and has far more animus for BLM than racists.
Not disagreeing with your broader point about conflating redemption and forgiveness, I agree they are not the same.
But I want to poke at the part I bolded. I don't think that redemption is a selfish act or it is for you and you alone. I think that redemption is always greater than yourself, always a communal act. People don't redeem themselves, they are redeemed [by something else]. Nobody should say "I am redeemed" (and thankfully most people don't, maybe some psychopaths), instead they say "I have been redeemed." It might seem like just a matter of speech or something semantic, the passive voice versus the active voice, but I think it's an important distinction.
A person can seek redemption, but nobody can give themselves redemption, they can only be redeemed by other people (or by god, nature, whatever you believe, etc). Anybody who says, "I am redeemed," doesn't understand what redemption is. Redemption, in that way, is always greater than yourself.
I agree with your broader, more important point, but I think that redemption is something unique that can only be granted to you and by something else, and so it's a unique characteristic of the human condition.
I know. I'm just saying I respect what he has been able to do and his determination to do it. Not everyone has that level of empathy and patience.
But like I said he is the exception not the rule.
I cannot imagine opening up with a shot about how unprogressive Era is and then going into a muttiple paragraph complaint that rapists are treated unfairly.
Adding to my previous posting:
I don't think personal forgiveness matters. It shouldn't, because the person that has been wronged has every reason to not forgive the perpetrator. My posting above argued from a wider society point of view. If I was the victim or if someone I love was hurt, I'd surely never forgive. But that's okay, because I'm personally concerned. It's why I'm not the judge, which is a good thing.
Another note: I find curious how most people think murderers and even rapists are irredeemable, yet it's a perfectly accepted trope in entertainment media. Vegeta, Gaara, Magneto, and a myriad of other first-bad-then-good characters come to mind. It's quite the disconnect.
I don't think personal forgiveness matters. It shouldn't, because the person that has been wronged has every reason to not forgive the perpetrator. My posting above argued from a wider society point of view. If I was the victim or if someone I love was hurt, I'd surely never forgive. But that's okay, because I'm personally concerned. It's why I'm not the judge, which is a good thing.
Another note: I find curious how most people think murderers and even rapists are irredeemable, yet it's a perfectly accepted trope in entertainment media. Vegeta, Gaara, Magneto, and a myriad of other first-bad-then-good characters come to mind. It's quite the disconnect.
Well here are my rules :
- you did not actively try to hurt people for your own benefit or pleasure
- you realize your mistakes and change your way
- you do all you can to get people to forgive you
If you beat up someone because of drug abuse/alcohol and cut that out, I can forgive.
If you beat up someone because you want to feel powerful and are a sadist then no I cant.
- you did not actively try to hurt people for your own benefit or pleasure
- you realize your mistakes and change your way
- you do all you can to get people to forgive you
If you beat up someone because of drug abuse/alcohol and cut that out, I can forgive.
If you beat up someone because you want to feel powerful and are a sadist then no I cant.
I object that his actions are some sort of display of empathy in any positive sense.... again he hates BLM more than his KKK buds.
I believe most people except hardcore murderers and sex criminals can be rehabilitated yes, and I think the lines should be found by experts not random people who are thinking with emotion not logic.
Redemption is a whole other can of worms. It's the concept of commiting an act or acts so selfless so good intentioned that it "clears" the original infraction. It's a moral concept and doesn't belong anywhere in the discussion of how we punish people.
As for my view on it no I do not believe in redemption. What you have done is what you have done and you should own it and try to be better. Hoping there is something you can do to be redeemed sounds too much like blood of Jesus or wheel of karma religious and spiritual hokey pokey to me.
TL;DR: I don't believe in the concept of redemption and it doesn't belong in the discussion, but rehabilitation should be our aim with all but the worst of the worst.
Redemption is a whole other can of worms. It's the concept of commiting an act or acts so selfless so good intentioned that it "clears" the original infraction. It's a moral concept and doesn't belong anywhere in the discussion of how we punish people.
As for my view on it no I do not believe in redemption. What you have done is what you have done and you should own it and try to be better. Hoping there is something you can do to be redeemed sounds too much like blood of Jesus or wheel of karma religious and spiritual hokey pokey to me.
TL;DR: I don't believe in the concept of redemption and it doesn't belong in the discussion, but rehabilitation should be our aim with all but the worst of the worst.
Okay and that's fine. I'm not saying you need to agree with me.
None of those dudes raped anyone. Also, those cartoons and comics. Not to mention, people still give those characters shit (well maybe not Gaara) for the terrible things they did.
Personal forgiveness definitely matters, it may not be what you want to focus on, but it definitely matters.
There is a lot wrong with him.
Dude has actually failed to convert people and actually is now going to bat and testifying oin behalf of somehow he suppoedly reformed who got arrested for violence in Charlottesville (you better not have to ask who's side he was on), he tesitifed on his behalf because he's his firend and is in pain.
He does that yet shows intense direct animus to BLM activists.
He's not being misused by others, he's misusing himself.
IIRC there are statistics that suggest most youth who commit crime literally "grow out of" reoffending when they get older. Whether you want to count that as moral redemption or whatever I don't know.
Personally when someone is unlikely to reoffend I'd prefer not incarcerating them because it's a waste of money.
Personally when someone is unlikely to reoffend I'd prefer not incarcerating them because it's a waste of money.
OP
OP
I'm busy so the thread is going on without me...
It should never come at the cost of the safety of past victims or a reasonable chance at future victims.
1.) Yeah, they didn't rape. They ONLY murdered dozens if not hundreds of people.
2.) It doesn't matter if it's anime or not, does it. Otherwise we wouldn't be having eternal repeats of 'underage-anime-tiddies' discussions. Morality can be drawn from the abstract, too. I think anyone can be redeemed, but considering the popularity of transgressing characters in fiction, I find it at odds how people react towards real criminals.
Hard to say. Worst thing I've done, I did when I was 10, and feel even worse about it at 25 and it's only gonna get worse until I have that conversation. Rehabilitated? Definitely. Redeemed? Hell no.
No, because I do not believe that positive actions erase harmful actions.
Any harmful action a person takes will have always happened, and there will be victims from said action.
A person deciding to "turn their life around" does not erase the victims, no matter what redemption arcs our culture likes to parade about.
It is my opinion that redemption arcs are a giant pile of horse shit that minimizes victims and puts the onus on the victim to "forgive" the aggressor because "they are trying to be good now".
Fuck that.
A person can try to do good after having done bad, but it doesn't make them redeemed, it doesn't make them a good person, they will always be a person that harmed others.
Any harmful action a person takes will have always happened, and there will be victims from said action.
A person deciding to "turn their life around" does not erase the victims, no matter what redemption arcs our culture likes to parade about.
It is my opinion that redemption arcs are a giant pile of horse shit that minimizes victims and puts the onus on the victim to "forgive" the aggressor because "they are trying to be good now".
Fuck that.
A person can try to do good after having done bad, but it doesn't make them redeemed, it doesn't make them a good person, they will always be a person that harmed others.
Even the characters we do like are still considered terrible when you apply real life rules to them. That's why everyone calls Goku a shit father. Don't equate these things, it's a shit argument.
I believe rehabilitation and reintegration are incredibly important, and that most people who have done something horrible can be rehabilitated and returned to society, and that society should work towards that goal and allow for it to happen. I think that part of coming to terms with what you've done means accepting that not everyone will forgive you and that you cant control what others think or feel about you.
I also believe people are generally a product of their experiences and circumstances and that as those change, the person can change too. When horrible things happen to people they sometimes respond in destructive and horrible ways. If you are really serious about helping people to heal then you have to acknowledge that someone's pain and suffering may have manifested itself in their life and actions in ways that are detrimental to themselves or others.
I also believe people are generally a product of their experiences and circumstances and that as those change, the person can change too. When horrible things happen to people they sometimes respond in destructive and horrible ways. If you are really serious about helping people to heal then you have to acknowledge that someone's pain and suffering may have manifested itself in their life and actions in ways that are detrimental to themselves or others.
Darth Vader was redeemed? After ruthlessly killing millions of innocent people all it takes for redemption is to save his own son?
I guess if Hitler had a son we would be praising him on Hitler Day.
Redemption is kinda like knowledge.
You work toward it but you are never done trying.
You can try to redeem yourself for your past actions but you'll never be on the level of the person you would be if you hadn't done the bad deed.
My point is Society does not care about redemption but about rehabilitation.
Outside of the person seeking redemption, no one actually cares and no one really should.
You work toward it but you are never done trying.
You can try to redeem yourself for your past actions but you'll never be on the level of the person you would be if you hadn't done the bad deed.
My point is Society does not care about redemption but about rehabilitation.
Outside of the person seeking redemption, no one actually cares and no one really should.
User Banned (1 Week): Thread derailment, trolling across several threads, account still in junior phase.
Nah, it's a fine argument. Goku is an outlandish fictional character who at least tries doing good. The villains he fights and turn good afterwards commit very real crimes, however. You can try justify your fondness for Vegeta all you like, it doesn't remove the cognitive disconnect. Btw I like Vegeta, too. But it's 100% bs that he's a forgiven hero past the Freezer-saga.
That's a problem in general though, isn't it. We love to watch and play what we'd find horrible irl. It's phoney.
Dude thinks society is too harsh on rapists... like specifically rapists and yet wants to claim to be the arbiter of morality lol.