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SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
I posed the question of what should be done and what does all this achieve earlier. Every response I've gotten questioning what it will take for me to "be angry" and "to act." I've gotten explanations of why its ok; these people are monsters (no shit), they have been participating in this sort of recourse long before us, etc. But no one actually answered the question what this achieves.

So please, what does this achieve and how am I a stumbling block against it?
Instead of asking people here to educate you, I would do some research. Here is a starting point that breaks down part of the issue we're dealing with.

https://splinternews.com/this-is-just-the-beginning-1827099100

SHS has absolutely no idea what it is like to be on the receiving end of what she is enabling.


I'd also recommend reading up civil unrest throughout history. The establishment is almost always opposed to changes that are retrospectively viewed as justified (the Civil Rights Movement and Labor Unions, for starters). In all of these situations, the tone policing and disapproval that you're exhibiting has been used against these movements in an attempt to shut them down. There's a pattern here that you're not recognizing.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
It would be one thing if SCOTUS had recently broadly ruled in favor of the Masterpiece baker case but they didn't. Conservatives the nation over celebrated that court ruling without actually taking the time to understand what the ruling specified, namely that "It is a general rule that such objections do not allow business owners and other actors in the economy and in society to deny protected persons equal access to goods and services." The ruling, though I disagree with it, takes into consideration the fact that gay marriage was not nationally recognized at the time of the noted dispute and was more an admonition of how the lower courts seemed to attack the baker's sincerely felt religious beliefs. Yes, minorities and LGBTQ rights in particular are currently under siege, but SCOTUS has yet to rule in favor of businesses discriminating against them as some have been led to believe. Were that the case, all bets would be off. However, I will say that public protesting of these figures such as what happened to Secretary Nielsen at that Mexican restaurant are a different matter entirely. That's not a private establishment discriminating based on political views but rather an uncivil protest by citizens which I completely support.
How can this be interpreted as anything other than "wait until it's too late"

The number of people over the last 18 months who I've seen use this line of reasoning is absolutely terrifying. We cant wait until we're a history lesson.
 

skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
How can this be interpreted as anything other than "wait until it's too late"

The number of people over the last 18 months who I've seen use this line of reasoning is absolutely terrifying. We cant wait until we're a history lesson.

Same shit minorities have been hearing since America's foundation.

Y'all can write all you want saying shit about escalation as if the other side needs any excuse other than the existence of the people they're oppressing to be evil.


These people aren't saying anything new or worthwhile.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
How can this be interpreted as anything other than "wait until it's too late"

That is a very valid question, especially in the face of a SCOTUS catastrophe (and make no mistake, that's the only word to describe another Gorsuch on the bench). My response is to not mistake thoughtful consideration for apathy. I agree that inaction is unacceptable, but by the same token, not all possible actions are equally justified. These people should be publicly shamed, yes, but there has to be some limits somewhere. That's not me trying to define what is or isn't the "right way" to protest. At most I'll say that we shouldn't preemptively infringe on the rights of our oppressors just because we rightfully fear they'll infringe on ours sooner or later. It's a mistake to assume that infringement is an inevitability because that logic is circular. It's illogical to justify an action by claiming it was in effort to stop something you don't believe can be stopped.

Our utmost priorities must be, without question, delaying an appointment to the SCOTUS and taking back both houses of Congress. Anything else is unacceptable, and if we fail at either, it's highly probable any other inroads we manage to create in the meantime will be reversed. Just look at what happened to the travel ban.
 

Polaroid_64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
People in this thread yesterday were saying that "we could lose the independent vote" if we "harass" these political figures. Fuck that shit, if any moderate/independent isn't already swayed against Trump what could possibly sway them at this point. Its a complete non-starter to play nicey nice when the gop are cutting every corner to get what they want.

If the people in power do nothing, the people that put them there will make ourselves be heard.

It is no one's fucking job to sway them anyway.

Accountability is a thing. Be a good person and make good choices. I don't have to do a song and dance to make them realize putting children in jail is wrong.

So fucking done with the fake bullshit.
 

Aktlys

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,535
Public officials need to get feedback on their actions 24/7

Do these snowflakes think they deserve safe spaces?
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
That is a very valid question, especially in the face of a SCOTUS catastrophe (and make no mistake, that's the only word to describe another Gorsuch on the bench). My response is to not mistake thoughtful consideration for apathy. I agree that inaction is unacceptable, but by the same token, not all possible actions are equally justified. These people should be publicly shamed, yes, but there has to be some limits somewhere. That's not me trying to define what is or isn't the "right way" to protest. At most I'll say that we shouldn't preemptively infringe on the rights of our oppressors just because we rightfully fear they'll infringe on ours sooner or later. It's a mistake to assume that infringement is an inevitability because that logic is circular. It's illogical to justify an action by claiming it was in effort to stop something you don't believe can be stopped.

Our utmost priorities must be, without question, delaying an appointment to the SCOTUS and taking back both houses of Congress. Anything else is unacceptable, and if we fail at either, it's highly probable any other inroads we manage to create in the meantime will be reversed. Just look at what happened to the travel ban.

They've already began stealing children from people so I feel like the boundary of "what rights are the opposition infringing" is set pretty far out. That's literally the specific proximate cause of SHS being denied service here.
 
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guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
They've already began stealing children from
people so I feel like the boundary of "what rights are the opposition infringing" is set pretty far out. That's literally the specific proximate cause of SHS being denied service here.
Shouldn't punishments and protests fit their respective crimes and civil violations, though? There has to be some logical throughline of consequence to enact change. Like, you don't slash someone's tires for shoplifting and call it justice. Protests, even if unjustly squashed, always have greater standing if they're built on an intrinsic right. Rosa Parks didn't protest her dehumanization by shitting on her congressman's lawn, she directly confronted the dehumanizing treatment in order to make a clear statement, and she did so without infringing on anyone else's basic rights.

What I'm tying say is messaging matters when it comes to protest, otherwise all you're doing is placating your own righteous indignation and nothing more. John Lewis doesn't tell people to get into indiscriminate trouble, he deliberately labels it as "good trouble" because not all forms of civil unrest are equal. In this case, there's a substantial risk of creating more of a distraction by encouraging businesses to discriminate against the rights of Trump staffers. Hell, I'd argue the right, with the help of the feckless mainstream media, has completely succeeded in changing the dialogue around the rights of immigrant children to something as profoundly stupid as what constitutes unjust incivility towards public servants. And yes, the right would have tried to change that narrative no matter what, but considering they're doing so as a reactionary measure against the actions of the left, the instigating act has a tremendous consequence on how effective the right will be in changing said narrative.

And to be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CLEAR, I don't at all disagree with public shaming making the lives of these assholes unbearable. But that action is constitutionally protected while businesses discriminating against who they serve based on their political affiliation is not. That distinction absolutely matters to how effective either form of protest will be.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Shouldn't punishments and protests fit their respective crimes and civil violations, though? There has to be some logical throughline of consequence to enact change. Like, you don't slash someone's tires for shoplifting and call it justice.
Here's where you're going wrong. The entire problem with this situation is that we dont have the power to hold Trump's administration accountable. The reason you dont need to slash someone's tires for stealing from you is that the law will hold them accountable and punish them accordingly. Trump's administration is not being held accountable. That's what civil disobedience is all about. Exercising the power that you DO have because you're not being listened to.

We have the power to make SHS feel unwelcome and uncomfortable.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Shouldn't punishments and protests fit their respective crimes and civil violations, though? There has to be some logical throughline of consequence to enact change. Like, you don't slash someone's tires for shoplifting and call it justice. Protests, even if unjustly squashed, always have greater standing if they're built on an intrinsic right. Rosa Parks didn't protest her dehumanization by shitting on her congressman's lawn, she directly confronted the dehumanizing treatment in order to make a clear statement, and she did so without infringing on anyone else's basic rights.

What I'm tying say is messaging matters when it comes to protest, otherwise all you're doing is placating your own righteous indignation and nothing more. John Lewis doesn't tell people to get into indiscriminate trouble, he deliberately labels it as "good trouble" because not all forms of civil unrest are equal. In this case, there's a substantial risk of creating more of a distraction by encouraging businesses to discriminate against the rights of Trump staffers. Hell, I'd argue the right, with the help of the feckless mainstream media, has completely succeeded in changing the dialogue around the rights of immigrant children to something as profoundly stupid as what constitutes unjust incivility towards public servants. And yes, the right would have tried to change that narrative no matter what, but considering they're doing so as a reactionary measure against the actions of the left, the instigating act has a tremendous consequence on how effective the right will be in changing said narrative.

And to be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CLEAR, I don't at all disagree with public shaming making the lives of these assholes unbearable. But that action is constitutionally protected while businesses discriminating against who they serve based on their political affiliation is not. That distinction absolutely matters to how effective either form of protest will be.

I feel like if people kidnapped Sanders's kids it would not be viewed as more civil, so I pretty much think this is unalloyed bullshit.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Here's where you're going wrong. The entire problem with this situation is that we dont have the power to hold Trump's administration accountable. The reason you dont need to slash someone's tires for stealing from you is that the law will hold them accountable and punish them accordingly. Trump's administration is not being held accountable. That's what civil disobedience is all about. Exercising the power that you DO have because you're not being listened to.

We have the power to make SHS feel unwelcome and uncomfortable.

Like I said, I'm actually FINE with that because it's a protected civil right. Businesses denying service based on political affiliation or work is not, so I'm much less cool with that one, mainly because it's another huge can of worms that will inevitably distract from the issues at hand. If SCOTUS had ruled businesses could discriminate based on sexual orientation, that'd be one thing, but they didn't.

I feel like if people kidnapped Sanders's kids it would not be viewed as more civil, so I pretty much think this is unalloyed bullshit.

I had a feeling someone would intentionally miss the point with this asinine retort but I was hoping it wouldn't be you.
 

Polaroid_64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
What Maxine Waters called for, and what was decried by the Senators which inspired this thread, was a call for bullying. It has not happened that I am aware of, but condemnation of Maxine Waters comments has been treated as an affront in this thread.


I regret raising my issues with SHS being asked to leave a restaurant in this thread because I have muddied my own message. I don't consider what happened at Red Hen as bullying of SHS, but I do view Maxine Waters' call to action as one to bully - and Pelosi and Schumer's comments in particular were entirely contained to just Maxine.

I have separate issues with Red Hen and SHS, but I am not sure I want to fight two battles at once here.

Bro, middle men can't even fight one battle.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Businesses denying service based on political affiliation or work is not, so I'm much less cool with that one,

Except the people you're desperately defending already made it legal to deny service based on sexuality.
Please tell me why the people allowing that should be given service freely?

it's hypocritical to the extreme.
 

digit_zero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,373
Instead of asking people here to educate you, I would do some research. Here is a starting point that breaks down part of the issue we're dealing with.

https://splinternews.com/this-is-just-the-beginning-1827099100

SHS has absolutely no idea what it is like to be on the receiving end of what she is enabling.


I'd also recommend reading up civil unrest throughout history. The establishment is almost always opposed to changes that are retrospectively viewed as justified (the Civil Rights Movement and Labor Unions, for starters). In all of these situations, the tone policing and disapproval that you're exhibiting has been used against these movements in an attempt to shut them down. There's a pattern here that you're not recognizing.
I wasn't asking for an education of protest and the unrest movements as a whole - only an understanding of the plan forward here and now.

But if we are talking history, the other unfortunate aspect of civil unrest throughout history is its slow. It is always slow. We should be taking the time to be strategic, to act with purpose. Rosa Parks wasn't an impulse decision. You want to go more recent, the protests of the travel ban at airports weren't an impulse decision. Groups organized these events, they were engineered to spark the right reactions.

Also, that article is batshit insane.
Read a recent history book. The U.S. had thousands of domestic bombings per year in the early 1970s. This is what happens when citizens decide en masse that their political system is corrupt, racist, and unresponsive. The people out of power have only just begun to flex their dissatisfaction. The day will come, sooner that you all think, when Trump administration officials will look back fondly on the time when all they had to worry about was getting hollered at at a Mexican restaurant. When you aggressively fuck with people's lives, you should not be surprised when they decide to fuck with yours.
This is terrorism. The article it links to is about how movements get hijacked by extremist and terrorism and its like they didn't even read what they linked to, just aspired to the bombings to start here and now. If that is the path people in this thread see forward, yeah, you can count me out.
 

Lord Brady

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,392
I agree with them. I also think children should be able to go to school without the constant threat of being shot. Maybe focus more heavily on that than on some woman who had to get her meal at her second choice one evening.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
I agree with them. I also think children should be able to go to school without the constant threat of being shot. Maybe focus more heavily on that than on some woman who had to get her meal at her second choice one evening.

How do you feel about whether or not minorities should be forced to serve people who are actively trying to hurt them? Nobody seems to be as interested in weighing in on that one.
 

Lord Brady

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,392
How do you feel about whether or not minorities should be forced to serve people who are actively trying to hurt them? Nobody seems to be as interested in weighing in on that one.
Plenty of people weigh in on that all the time. If you don't want to be in a position to serve people who may or may not have your best interests at heart, don't take a job where you serve people. But this wasn't a case of servers refusing to serve Sanders. It was the owner making a decision to not serve her, and that's their right as the owner of an establishment. I personally think it's stupid, but it's their business and they get to live with the fallout. Who knows, maybe the positives will outweigh the negatives.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
Plenty of people weigh in on that all the time. If you don't want to be in a position to serve people who may or may not have your best interests at heart, don't take a job where you serve people. But this wasn't a case of servers refusing to serve Sanders. It was the owner making a decision to not serve her, and that's their right as the owner of an establishment. I personally think it's stupid, but it's their business and they get to live with the fallout. Who knows, maybe the positives will outweigh the negatives.

Nope.

She was contacted by her minority employees, she asked for their perspective, and then she did what she thought was right by her employees. I guess being concerned about and supporting service staff isn't what we're used to, so I can see how you'd find it hard to believe but that's the account of what happened that we've been given.

And honestly the suggestion that those in the service industry don't deserve any say in who they serve, especially if their employer disagrees with that, is seriously gross.
 

52club

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,499
This is really complicated. Denial of service has a very dark history for the African American community. I think I'm on board when it is done politely and is based on someone's actions rather than beliefs. Also factoring into my opinion is the scotus decision, as well as this provides a chance for those often in a lower economic class to fight back.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Probably not, that's a common sentiment among unrelated people. If it doesn't affect them then it doesn't matter.
I know, it's just so on the nose that it has me second-guessing my initial read.

Hundred percent though a lot of people actually think this way. It's fucking reprehensible.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
If you don't want to be in a position to serve people who may or may not have your best interests at heart, don't take a job where you serve people.

This is extremely fucking shitty. Gay people deserve better than this. What else shouldn't they do if they don't want to deal with bigotry? What the fuck is wrong with you?
 

Zip

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,028
I find it really sad how much hemming and hawing is going on over this.

The owner legally asked her to leave. She had good reasoning and positive intentions. It was not for Sanders' party affiliation but for her actions. More places should do this until the American government starts demonstrating accountability again, and stops doing shit like abducting and imprisoning children.

This is not hard.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
I find it really sad how much hemming and hawing is going on over this.

The owner legally asked her to leave. She had good reasoning and positive intentions. It was not for Sanders' party affiliation but for her actions. More places should do this until the American government starts demonstrating accountability again, and stops doing shit like abducting and imprisoning children.

This is not hard.
It should be simple. Except for the fact that for a long time too many Americans have had a desire to police the way people protest and have taken to valuing a false version of quiet and peace over the upheaval and disturbance that comes from people looking for justice or equality.

I guarantee that people like these politicians know the entire story yet inherently see something wrong, sick and ugly about the very idea of protest in the first place. Tone doesn't matter at all. What matters is that someone was inconvenienced/uncomfortable and somehow they'll wrap themselves in knots to tell people how that's not ok. That inconveniencing someone or disrupting their life is tantamount to a human rights atrocity.

It's all about privilege. The privilege of having nothing on the line and naively believing that every oppressor, every despot, tyrant, and monster is only a friendly conversation away from changing their ways and to interrupt that process with justified anger and civil disobedience is to break some social contract. When they have zero stake in the outcome, they can still pretend like people of the Trump administration are playing fair in the same arena they're in despite the thousands of lessons they should have learned.

Bernie & his fans like to use the fact that he participated in the civil rights movement as an innoculum against criticism; particularly form minorities. All statements like these show though is that he probably helped without ever being fully comfortable or fully understanding and empathizing with the actual struggles of the people of the time or now. All of his actions were performative rather than borne out of a true understanding of the ideals of the minorities he surrounded himself with. Because how else can you try to talk down to these employees in the very climate we're in?
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-baker-who-rebuffed-gay-couple-idUSKCN1J01WU

That. I fail to understand how a country where a christian baker can refuse service to a gay couple and get backed by the supreme court can't be a country where the people supporting that also get kicked out of restaurants.
You are misunderstanding the ruling.
The court concluded that the commission violated Phillips' religious rights under the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment.

But the justices did not issue a definitive ruling on the circumstances under which people can seek exemptions from anti-discrimination laws based on religion. The decision also did not address important claims raised in the case including whether baking a cake is a kind of expressive act protected by the Constitution's free speech guarantee.

To my knowledge, it is not permissible at the moment to deny service based on sexuality. The ruling was incredibly narrow and was predicated on the event in question taking place before gay marriage was made nationally legal.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
The fuck is wrong with me is I have an opinion contrary to your own apparently.

You're going to think this is sarcastic, but it's not. I'm glad that you are honest about this and aren't leading me down a winding road of fake arguments. You think that if you are wait staff and are gay that you should serve your oppressors. It's your own fault because of the job you have.

Clear cut bigotry.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
You are misunderstanding the ruling.

Lol "misunderstanding". I am not misunderstanding it in the slightest.

Q: Did this ruling support a baker refusing service to a gay couple?

A: Yes, it did.

So again, why should this incredibly narrow case of one homophobic woman being refused service, predicated on GLBT servers not wanting to serve her, be OMGHORRIBLE?
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Lol "misunderstanding". I am not misunderstanding it in the slightest.

Q: Did this ruling support a baker refusing service to a gay couple?

A: Yes, it did.

So again, why should this incredibly narrow case of one homophobic woman being refused service, predicated on GLBT servers not wanting to serve her, be OMGHORRIBLE?
NO IT DIDN'T. The Justices even went out of their way to clarify that businesses cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation.

Facts and legal precedent actually matter. Get your head of your ass and stop seeing what you want to see.
 

digit_zero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,373
And honestly the suggestion that those in the service industry don't deserve any say in who they serve, especially if their employer disagrees with that, is seriously gross.
This is the cake shop argument.

Yes I agree, that case is morally reprehensible, while what SHS faced was more in the line of karma. The Civil Rights Act was supposed to solve this - but because things like sexual orientation isn't explicitly spelled out in the law, a gray area still being arguing in the courts exists. So I've long felt the only way to stop fighting against moving goal posts is to explicitly stand against any sort of discrimination in public spaces.
 
OP
OP
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,330
This is the cake shop argument.

Yes I agree, that case is morally reprehensible, while what SHS faced was more in the line of karma. The Civil Rights Act was supposed to solve this - but because things like sexual orientation isn't explicitly spelled out in the law, a gray area still being arguing in the courts exists. So I've long felt the only way to stop fighting against moving goal posts is to explicitly stand against any sort of discrimination in public spaces.

Brah you insult queer folk by comparing us to SHS
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
This is the cake shop argument.

Yes I agree, that case is morally reprehensible, while what SHS faced was more in the line of karma. The Civil Rights Act was supposed to solve this - but because things like sexual orientation isn't explicitly spelled out in the law, a gray area still being arguing in the courts exists. So I've long felt the only way to stop fighting against moving goal posts is to explicitly stand against any sort of discrimination in public spaces.
In what fucking world has that worked?
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,043
Pennsylvania
It is no one's fucking job to sway them anyway.

Accountability is a thing. Be a good person and make good choices. I don't have to do a song and dance to make them realize putting children in jail is wrong.

So fucking done with the fake bullshit.
Yeah for real, if anyone "on the fence" hasn't seen how bad these fuckers actually are I seriously doubt they would even come out and vote to begin with.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Look, no one has to like that SHS has the right to dine in a public space, but saying businesses should be allowed to discriminate against her based on sincerely held beliefs but not queer folk is not some slippery slope nonsense, it's the exact rationale bigots use to actually discriminate against queer folk and other minorities.
 
OP
OP
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,330
Look, no one has to like that SHS has the right to dine in a public space, but saying businesses should be allowed to discriminate against her based on sincerely held beliefs but not queer folk is not some slippery slope nonsense, it's the exact rationale bigots use to actually discriminate against queer folk and other minorities.

No seriously I'm sorry what?
 

Enzom21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,989
Look, no one has to like that SHS has the right to dine in a public space, but saying businesses should be allowed to discriminate against her based on sincerely held beliefs but not queer folk is not some slippery slope nonsense, it's the exact rationale bigots use to actually discriminate against queer folk and other minorities.
She was asked to leave for her actions not her political beliefs.
Political beliefs are in no way comparable to sexual orientation/race, like you're suggesting.
It's really not a surprise coming from someone like yourself.