I mean, Taro isn't the character designer of any of those games. Well, at least as a director he can decide what he accepts or not and gives his own direction so you're not exactly wrong either.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- Status
I mean, Taro isn't the character designer of any of those games. Well, at least as a director he can decide what he accepts or not and gives his own direction so you're not exactly wrong either.
I did wonder about how much had changed considering the localisation of the whole thing to very British characters and locations, I'll definitely try and track down the original!
so what do people think of Anti Anita sex positive feminist "gamers are marginalized" Liana Kerzner? i never seen her lady bits videos i only seen her "lets be nice to alt righters" & "the left should be nice" videos And Tweets.
At work so not watching any videos but looking at her tweets. Calling gamers marginalized, defending Boogie, and pulling the "western women aren't oppressed" argument on people concerned about the ramifications of Gamergate is not painting a good picture. Also she does not seem to realize why people are worried about the Supreme Court.
Yeah, playing games doesn't make you a protected class or marginalized in any ways. Being overly obsessed with them may get you some odd looks, but you aren't going to really face any sort of injustice.
In response to some of these issues people are having with Taro's games....
Drakengard 1-3 & Nier 1 (not Automata) were not written by Taro himself. They were written by Sawako Natori, who is a woman. She has said that Kaine was her favorite Nier character.
The character designs for those games though was done by a man, Kimihiko Fujisaka.
I really enjoy the Drakengard and Nier games precisely because they've got such unique, confident and powerful women in them. Yes, some of the designs could be better; but it's more important to me that women are written well and given their own agency, as is the case in these games.
Drakengard 1-3 & Nier 1 (not Automata) were not written by Taro himself. They were written by Sawako Natori, who is a woman. She has said that Kaine was her favorite Nier character.
The character designs for those games though was done by a man, Kimihiko Fujisaka.
I really enjoy the Drakengard and Nier games precisely because they've got such unique, confident and powerful women in them. Yes, some of the designs could be better; but it's more important to me that women are written well and given their own agency, as is the case in these games.
I consider Kerzner a gamer carebear. She's giving everybody her time of day, but is a bit too much in love with the gamer identity for my tastes, but then again I'm a cynic.
She's a GG apologist, but I don't think she's insincere. File it under "useful idiot" if you must.
Her beef with FF stems from how she perceives them as sex-negative (also regarding prostitution), among other things. And she also has the usual laments about misrepresentations and such.
I've gotten the impression games helped her through some time in her past, and she's touchy about criticism towards large breasts, seemingly because of her own. Cue then some familiar talking points.
She's also had run-ins with FF followers, and it has soured her on them a lot. I believe because it lost her her job and industry ties.
I've been watching some of her videos for the last year or so, and in between some head scratchers I can take away a few good points.
She's a GG apologist, but I don't think she's insincere. File it under "useful idiot" if you must.
Her beef with FF stems from how she perceives them as sex-negative (also regarding prostitution), among other things. And she also has the usual laments about misrepresentations and such.
I've gotten the impression games helped her through some time in her past, and she's touchy about criticism towards large breasts, seemingly because of her own. Cue then some familiar talking points.
She's also had run-ins with FF followers, and it has soured her on them a lot. I believe because it lost her her job and industry ties.
I've been watching some of her videos for the last year or so, and in between some head scratchers I can take away a few good points.
yeah imo she is a broken clock, but she really does not get the fact that being nice to right wingers does not work.
yeah when it comes to gamers she seems to downplay the anti diversity types in gaming. imo if Lara Croft was an all new character today people would complain "sjw Uncharted". i hate that "gamers are marginalized" talking point, she does it in this video and it's annoy.
Mentioned Conan Exiles earlier. It was probably the last place I expected to be impressed by the handling of women's armor, but here we are!
A little gallery:
What do you think?
I felt it was a good example of equal armors.
This one is very interesting!
They decided to cover the sides and the whole back for the women, while men get to show more skin. Sure, it's probably more of a muscle show off power fantasy thing, but instead of using that as an excuse to sexualize the armor for women they made their version... really cool. This is the one I run around in.
My character's sliders are all at 50% due to an unfortunate bug (I wanted the breasts to be about 35 and "physique" to be around 60-65. Maybe they'll fix that eventually). But as you can see the "average" breast size is not overly huge either!
All the emotes in the game are the same for both genders too, including butt spanks, laying "seductively" on the floor while caressing their own bodies, belly dances, squirming... everything. They show male NPCs doing it too. And that goes for all the "manly ones" too of course. The ladies are just as powerful and cool when taunting, spitting and crossing their arms.
A little gallery:
What do you think?
I felt it was a good example of equal armors.
This one is very interesting!
They decided to cover the sides and the whole back for the women, while men get to show more skin. Sure, it's probably more of a muscle show off power fantasy thing, but instead of using that as an excuse to sexualize the armor for women they made their version... really cool. This is the one I run around in.
My character's sliders are all at 50% due to an unfortunate bug (I wanted the breasts to be about 35 and "physique" to be around 60-65. Maybe they'll fix that eventually). But as you can see the "average" breast size is not overly huge either!
All the emotes in the game are the same for both genders too, including butt spanks, laying "seductively" on the floor while caressing their own bodies, belly dances, squirming... everything. They show male NPCs doing it too. And that goes for all the "manly ones" too of course. The ladies are just as powerful and cool when taunting, spitting and crossing their arms.
I mean it certainly isn't offensive like many other games and honestly I quite like it. I do think that the smaller chest plate is chosen to bring attention to her bare stomache and upper chest which both appear to be more covered on the main but aesthetically the armor looks quite nice to me. I just can't help but wonder why settle for such a small chest plate that leaves so much exposed still.
In the quoted gallery I really like 2, 3, 5.
Yeah this is how it looks from the front
I don't really mind it here because I didn't feel the chestplate was there for protection, due to pretty much everything else being non-plated (there is basically just a fur flap protecting the crotch area... yikes!), but yeah the bare stomach is a bit strange especially compared to the man. There are a couple of other armors that are a bit different like these, but I didn't have them on hand. Gotta check some more next time. I think I can spawn armors with the admin tools.
Oh, you can also mix and match armors freely. Head/Chest/Hands/Legs/Feet.
This is a much better shot. I think the reason it doesn't feel like its for protection is because its too small. It doesn't even fully cover her hips as you can see her sides. I'm probably nitpicking but a lot of armors prioritize the torso for protection because it houses many of the most vital organs and is such a huge target, it is your center of mass after all. I guess some of the roman armor comes to mind easily for this.
Behold my amazing work of art utilizing MS Paint's cut, paste and resize feature.
Does this not look more like armor for protection?
I imagine if it was a short piece of armor on the man we would probably see some nice abs. Is there an option for this in the character creator? I haven't played the game.
Edit. Also, what is that stuff above the guy's head. Just curious.
Edit 2. The more I look at it I guess I just don't like that chest armor. I think if she was completely without it and just had the shirt/wrap, it might even look better. That is beyond my MS Paint skills tho.
I think your skills are good ;)This is a much better shot. I think the reason it doesn't feel like its for protection is because its too small. It doesn't even fully cover her hips as you can see her sides. I'm probably nitpicking but a lot of armors prioritize the torso for protection because it houses many of the most vital organs and is such a huge target, it is your center of mass after all. I guess some of the roman armor comes to mind easily for this.
Behold my amazing work of art utilizing MS Paint's cut, paste and resize feature.
Does this not look more like armor for protection?
I imagine if it was a short piece of armor on the man we would probably see some nice abs. Is there an option for this in the character creator? I haven't played the game.
Edit. Also, what is that stuff above the guy's head. Just curious.
Edit 2. The more I look at it I guess I just don't like that chest armor. I think if she was completely without it and just had the shirt/wrap, it might even look better. That is beyond my MS Paint skills tho.
But I still don't really see it as armor for protection. I mean, the guy's sides are completely uncovered and I'm just imagining an enemy sticking a spear in there under his arms. If he had a leather-y shirt or something I would be mad about her look.
But your edit would be a more equal look for sure!
The character creator lets you put insane muscle definition on both. I can probably show that too with a mod! I have to take a break from the game for a couple of days tho. When I play I can't stop for like six hours... :|
I had to censor a name above his head, since it's pretty unique and my SO doesn't want it out there for people to see, that's why the pic wasn't there with the others from the beginning! Dunno why it popped up in this screenshot only, it wasn't showing when we screenshotted the others.
There are a lot of wraps/shirt only clothes too! :) For this gallery I only had the ones we had actually crafted, but I bet there are both better and worse ones in the game too.
I mean, it certainly isn't full protection but to cover the front is pretty basic priority I think. I'm no expert but that is just my logic. Assuming you're still putting up a fight and have both arms they can't get into your torso as easily from the sides if you're facing them from the front but again, I'm just nitpicking I guess.
It would be good to see some muscle options given how rare they seem to be in creators. I'm somewhat curious about the game myself now.
Watching her videos, she is definitely more versed than Anita in video game history. This was also one of my main gripes with Anita. Eg Anita does not even mention or analyse much Carmen Sandiego or Roberta Williams. Or Centipede, an arcade game coded by a woman. Or that more than half of arcade players were women.
Anita's aim is analysis to make up her points but she does it from a non-gamer perspective and by using a more critical stance. A disadvantage, since she is seen as an outsider by gaming circles.
Which is always an interesting idea to me if only because gaming should be welcoming to new people as well, whether or not they know the history or have gamed before if some areas are problematic then there stands a reason for discussion and critical analysis from multiple perspectives I think.
What do you folks think about the various female Twitch / streaming gamers that, well, show too much skin during their show. Empowering or demeaning?
One reason video game historians should strive to incorporate more social issues instead of being limited to the artistic, technical or economic aspect. Video games are severely lacking in this. Even if I read a book about the history of aeroplanes, it is much better and more representative than a video game history book.
It is their choice to do whatever they want.
So long as they're following Twitch guidelines, it's none of my business. These women choose what/what not to wear, if that empowers them, then more power to them. I'm certainly in no position to say it's demeaning.
They're adults (hopefully). They can do what they want and express themselves how they want.
Anyone who goes by "let's be nice with alt righters" shouldn't have any credit. Any kind of opressions shouldn't be tolerated.
If these kind of streams exist it's because we live in a patriarchy. They are just cashing money because most men are horny all the time. Now, demeaning or empowering? Neither. Generally it's alienation. It is equally wrong to blame the girl for taking advantage of the excitement of men, just as it is wrong not to blame the consumer. If people did not see those streamings, they would not exist, the problem is that there is too much demand.
Last edited:
Of course it's their choice, I am talking about whether such a thing could be seen as perpetuating the negative stereotype of women in the gaming landscape or not.
Isn't what they think about it more relevant?
I think the people perpetuating negative stereotypes about female streamers are far more likely to be the far greater numbers of those endlessly moaning about 'fake gamer girls' or giving huge amounts of money to someone they don't know that they find attractive on the assumption that it should entitle them to attention, than the relatively small number of streamers themselves that have rules to adhere to.
Last edited:
A stereotype is something that is thrust upon you from someone's limited viewpoint, it's not something you define for yourself. It's not these womens' responsibility to change that.
I mean, streamers like Rocha is cool but there are streamers that I feel like... Maybe I can be such a cynical person sometimes, but sometimes I can't help to think that they're basically trying to use the negative stereotype of women/female characters (you know, females have to be 'sexy' and all that) to make a buck out of it. ... ah, maybe I shouldn't think about it too much.
I find the reaction to "titty streamers" far more problematic. God forbid a woman has boobs.
I think it is more that the streamers are using men and boy's lack of keeping their desires in check against the those two groups
Is it then also okay that I as a male watcher comment on their outfit and enjoy any potential sexual arousal?
They can't have it both ways after all. Luring in people with 'skimpy' outfits, then complain about people's reaction to these outfits.
Maybe i'm reading this the wrong way, but to me this reads like saying Look at her outfit, she's asking for it.
This shit happens at anime conventions because dumb fucks think its alright to touch women inappropriately(which includes unwanted hugging) because they're wearing what'd be considered skimpy outfits.
Last edited:
How is someone choosing to express themselves however they like also automatically 'luring' people? Anyone should be able to do the former without automatically 'luring' unwanted comments. Are you not able to control yourself and leave a nice comment for the total stranger you're watching instead (or not comment at all)? This sounds a bit like the logic of some 'they had it coming' arguments about any woman wearing something skimpy automatically meaning catcalling (or touching, or worse) is invited.
You're putting 100% of the responsibility for not attracting unwanted attention from fans onto people not dressing in a way that might arouse them (and thus controlling what they can/can't wear), and none of the responsibility on such people to control themselves like reasonable adults. Same goes for attendees to conventions, tournaments, concerts etc.
Last edited:
My posting was more from a 'she really IS asking for it' perspective. I don't watch any letsplayers or whatever, but I imagine if there was a channel called 'SexyGamerGirl plays games just for Y❤u' while showing off an abnormal amount of cleavage etc., then it's not unfair for men to react in a given way.
Of course, if a girl just happens to be naturally attractive, sexually loaded comments would be a no-go, that's obvious.
It's pretty simple. The streamer in question has agency over her own body, to do with as she pleases. She has power in this situation that she chose for herself.
Fictional characters, especially when designed by men, have no agency because they're not real. Therefore, they have no power, the men chose what she wears for their titilation. This can be tempered by having female writers give them agency within their own worlds though, I feel.
Also keep in mind she's operating within a patriarchal system in which that's a pretty easy way to make money. If boys didn't give her money for doing it, she wouldn't do it
It would be demeaning only if they were streaming with a guy near them, imposing on them what to do and how to behave
Only by people that want to dismiss her. She is not an oursider to gaming by any stretch of the imagination.
Neither. If they want to do so on their own volition, it's their choice, and I see nothing wrong with it.
If a character designer designed them that way, I'd call it trash. But they're real people, and if they want to dress skimpy, go ahead. It has no impact on other women, and the only people thinking negative of women because one female streamer had cleavage are garbage people like "anti-anitas" anyway.
The big problem there isn't what they're doing, it's that a lot of times they're breaking Twitch TOS but get away with it while much more innocuous violations (or things that aren't violations at all) don't. That's of course is more an issue with Twitch than these actual streamers, but it unfortunately leads to resentment among people that were unfairly banned. I think Cr1tikal had a video on this a while ago.
I mean she mentions mainly the mainstream and popular games, while the surprises are usually in the indie and less popular or even forgotten ones. As video game critics, they could devote time or analyze those games too. Eg I would prefer any movie critic to focus also in less popular or older movies and foreign ones, that tackle social and political issues more acutely.
Another article:
https://feministfrequency.com/2018/06/14/gender-breakdown-of-games-featured-at-
e3-2018/
this year shows no improvement, with 9 games, or roughly 8% of games shown, featuring female protagonists.
By contrast, just over three times as many featured games, 29 in all or roughly 24%, focus on male heroes or solely have male playable avatars or characters.
Some may wonder why the ratio of male representation to female representation matters when fully half of games shown, 59 or exactly 50%, either allow players to choose characters of different genders or have players shifting between protagonists of different genders. The answer is quite simple. When a game (such as 2017's Horizon Zero Dawn, or the upcoming The Last of Us 2) features a set female protagonist, every player who enters those worlds must experience them through the lens of Aloy, or Ellie, or whoever the female protagonist might be. These games work to normalize the notion that male players should be able to project themselves onto and identify with female protagonists just as female players have always projected ourselves onto and identified with male protagonists. The fact that yet again, as in 2015 and 2017, games featured at E3 are over three times as likely to feature a male player-character as a female one speaks to the fact that we still have a long way to go before being anywhere remotely close to gender parity, and sadly, we haven't been making progress here.
While I agree with the above, I feel a little lost with this one:
In addition, of course, to puzzle games like Tetris Effect, racing games like Forza Horizon 4, purely narrative games like The Awesome Adventures of Captain Spirit, and management games like Jurassic World Evolution, we also included all sports games in the non-combat category, although given that football routinely does serious, lasting harm to players' bodies, you could certainly argue that Madden is a more violent game than some of those that do feature combat. We also didn't include card games, such as The Elder Scrolls Legends, despite the fact that the playing of cards is meant to symbolize physical combat.
Equaling a sports simulation and card game to an FPS or 3rd person action game with violence seems very arbitrary and disingenuous to sports.
But... she does. All the time. She made entire videos about positive examples of female representation (something people whined so much to her about) such as Sword & Sworcery. The notion that she's an outsider to video games is pure GG propaganda.
You mean the indie game? By hearing that title, my mind goes back to the old Spectrum game. Of course she is not an outsider, it is just that she does not satisfy me personally with her knowledge about video games, since her videos are missing the social aspect too. Instead of focusing on the game she could focus on the male and female players and how they interact. Games are not just offline single player experiences. That would make her stand above the rest and she has the knowledge and experience for it.
I'd like to see her play an online multiplayer game, incognito of course. She'd write a whole encyclopedia out of this.
Those goalposts sure are moving now. First she doesn't talk about historical (for lack of better word) female developers enough, then she doesn't talk about indies enough, then she doesn't talk about online multiplayer enough... sigh.
Look, her Tropes videos were about trends of female representation in a wild variety of games. That was the scope of the project. Not to talk about the history of the industry, or how players are treated online (she devoted enough time in other articles to address the harassment women face in general anyway), or whatever. If you'd like her to address certain topics, that's one thing, but right now it just looks like you're constantly trying to downplay her knowledge or her "cred" and it's getting a bit tiresome.
Look, her Tropes videos were about trends of female representation in a wild variety of games. That was the scope of the project. Not to talk about the history of the industry, or how players are treated online (she devoted enough time in other articles to address the harassment women face in general anyway), or whatever. If you'd like her to address certain topics, that's one thing, but right now it just looks like you're constantly trying to downplay her knowledge or her "cred" and it's getting a bit tiresome.
Speaking in general here, but gamers as a whole really need to realise that not everyone is utterly obsessed with the medium.
Anita doesn't need an encyclopedic knowledge of every game in existence. Her points aren't invalidated because she isnt an expert on some niche genre or another. Literary critics haven't read every book in existence, neither have film critics seen every film. To expect otherwise is ludicrous.
Last edited:
I'm sorry but if she cannot name by heart the exact hexcode colors of pixel 125 x 159 of the title screen of Terranigma, she isn't qualified to give opinions on video games.
/s
I admit I parsed this entirely wrong before knowing it's the name of a video series.
Except they didn't "equate" them, as they actually grouped both within "non-combat". Saying that an argument can be made that some sports and card games depict violence is nowhere near "equating" them. Please quit the disingenuous arguments and transparent discrediting attempts.
You seem under the misconception that Anita's job is to inform people of things you care about. If you care so much for online interactions, by all means make videos about it, spread the word, do whatever you want about it. Offloading this onto Anita on top of the work she's already doing spreading awareness of sexism within games themselves is incredibly unfair, lazy as fuck, and really exposes you as not really giving a shit about either.
It's the exact same as when people criticise my SO for spending her time coordinating cat rescues and adoptions with "how can you care about that when there's children dying of hunger?". 9 out of 10 times these very people do fuck all to help those starving children themselves, they just want to feel morally superior.
My exact thoughts reading the above criticism. The list of qualifications you must meet to be able to speak ill of muh vidyagaims is growing longer and longer by the minute year and by the end of the year I fully expect it to include at least five different PhDs plus winning three different EVO tournaments.
But then again, women needing four times as many qualifications as men to be granted the same amount of consideration and respect is basically the status quo of modern society, so what else is new.
That says a lot more about the endogamic cultural closedness of gaming circles than it says anything about Anita. If you belong to a group that is literally unable to digest critique presented from the perspective of a normal person, it's time for some reassessment of your life.
Do you also cat call women you think are dressing provocatively in real life? It's the exact same here. Women are within their right to dress as sexily as they want without having to entertain the unwanted advances of men. A woman dressing sexily is not necessarily (or even likely) doing it to attract you. Stop making things about yourself.
Last edited:
I accept and respect everything you said except the last one. You are making a mistake by adding personal attacks and assessments in that sort of dialog and argument.
I didn't mean "you" as in literally "you, petran". Unless you mean that the actual people who won't accept critique coming from a "normal person" (we both know this really means "woman") point of view should be handled like the fragile snowflakes they often behave as; in which case, very sorry, but fuck that noise and tone policing. I think it's entirely fair to tell people when they're part of a cult-like circle of barely functional individuals unable to interact with the rest of society in a normal way.
Ah ok, my mistake. I by no means regard her as a normal person though. The world of university lecturing and tutoring can be quite harsh and competitive and requires both intellectual and mental stamina, most gamers would not even dare to imagine . Not just due to the students but also because of fellow colleagues. If she survived that, gaming circles are a joke in comparison, intellectually at least. All the arguments here and elsewhere are sometimes unavoidable because video games did lack that approach for decades. Meaning to make the general public aware of the issues, instead of being limited to a few specialists. Even now this approach is in its infancy.
Except if you include damaging reports by psychologists regarding kids and teens. I was in such a seminar once where also parents attended and the psychologist told us some valuable and interesting stuff.
Here is the "100% physique" woman. You can't change the body type (yet?) for either men or women but the slider goes from no muscle definition to this.
I also stumbled into a bar and the dancers in the corner was a woman doing some cool different dance moves and two guys... squirm-dancing?
It still has some bad armors (and some "semi-bad" ones as we talked about above) both in general design and equality wise, but in general it feels very fresh when it comes to how both the women and men are portrayed.
And if you wanna look like a super sexy model running around doing acrobatic moves to slay your enemies, you can, and at the same time you can choose to just cover up the whole body and have some quite realistic clothes and armor. So the options are definitely there!
- Status