Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Mesoian · Jun 29, 2018

Ashidome said:
Is it then also okay that I as a male watcher comment on their outfit and enjoy any potential sexual arousal?

They can't have it both ways after all. Luring in people with 'skimpy' outfits, then complain about people's reaction to these outfits.

I mean, I know your banned but that's not asking to have it both ways.

There's a stream where ladies in evening wear sit around, play board games and drink. They're in full make up, they look very nice, a little skin is shown. The default reaction to that from their chat should not be "BOOOBS TAKE OFF YOUR TOP SHOW THE TIDDY". Using fashion to drawn people in is fine, we've done that for literally thousands of years and just because someone is wearing something provocative doesn't mean people viewing them get a pass to act poorly. That kind of behavior doesn't fly in sex cam chats, I don't know why you'd think it'd be fine on twitch.

Weltall Zero said:
My exact thoughts reading the above criticism. The list of qualifications you must meet to be able to speak ill of muh vidyagaims is growing longer and longer by the minute year and by the end of the year I fully expect it to include at least five different PhDs plus winning three different EVO tournaments.

But then again, women needing four times as many qualifications as men to be granted the same amount of consideration and respect is basically the status quo of modern society, so what else is new.

MariosInseem.gif

Deleted member 41271 · Jun 30, 2018

petran79 said:
I mean she mentions mainly the mainstream and popular games, while the surprises are usually in the indie and less popular or even forgotten ones.

What is her series about? Is it about surprises in rare, unknown games? No, it's not. It's about trends in popular games. Beloved games, in fact. That's why she picked them over others - obscure indie games are not a good indicator of trends, because these indies usually go against the trends on purpose.

She *contrasts* the popular games with indie games fairly often, showing she very much knows about them. I bet half this forum has no idea what Sword & Sworcery even is. But again: Why does she even have to do this purity test when her videos aren't even about obscure indies?

Remember: This isn't about you just liking her videos or finding her interesting. It's about the accusation that she's an outsider or knows little about games.

petran79 said:
Of course she is not an outsider, it is just that she does not satisfy me personally with her knowledge about video games,

Not covering something in a video doesn't mean she doesn't know about it.
If I make a video about cats, it doesn't mean I am unaware of dogs and gerbils.

Why are women expected to cover EVERYTHING, and if they don't, it automatically means they have a "lack of knowledge"? Don't you think this is odd? Nobody in their right mind would accuse a male content creator of not knowing about topics they didn't cover (yet?).

petran79 said:
Equaling a sports simulation and card game to an FPS or 3rd person action game with violence seems very arbitrary and disingenuous to sports.

What has this to do with her supposed lack of knowledge? Especially since she didn't equate sports to FPS. She was pointing out how her categorization worked, and that some could argue hers could be more strict.

Because it is true: Both Elder Scrolls Legend (which absolutely does depict combat) and Madden can be considered violent. Contrast this to a game like Spacechem, which has zero violence. I am not sure why acknowledging that stricter points of views exist is bad. It actually shows she's pretty aware of the diverging opinions on these topics, and is being very clear in what precisely she means with her data.
Which is a good thing. A graph saying "X violent games, Y non-violent games" tells you NOTHING in itself, because you don't know what definition of violent is being used. Is it about topical violence? The depiction of gore? Violence as a problem solver? Violence against other humans only? Violence against non-savage humans only? You won't know, unless it tells you which.

edit: Typo. Savage should not be spelled savafe.

atomsk eater · Jun 30, 2018

Ashidome said:
Is it then also okay that I as a male watcher comment on their outfit and enjoy any potential sexual arousal?

They can't have it both ways after all. Luring in people with 'skimpy' outfits, then complain about people's reaction to these outfits.

Just in case you're still reading: you're expected to remain civil. There's a range of comments and compliments that are appropriate before we go into some "love those sweaterpuppies" , "nice ass", "you make me hard" shit so many dudes think women should be happy to hear. And go ahead and have a boner, and enjoy that boner as you please in the comfort and privacy of your own home, but no one except you needs to know about it. The issue is primarily when people don't know how to handle their own arousal without making inappropriate, uncomfortable remarks because of some cleavage.

Laughing Banana said:
What do you folks think about the various female Twitch / streaming gamers that, well, show too much skin during their show. Empowering or demeaning?

I honestly can't knock a woman getting a following or making money off looking good. If she's breaking Twitch TOS then they should enforce their rules, but otherwise I don't find it demeaning.

cosmicblizzard said:
I want to see Anita do an in-depth analysis of Otome games.

I'd be interested in this. Even as an otome fan there's often a lot of strict gender role or sexist stuff in some otoge.

petran79 · Jun 30, 2018

Machachan said:
Remember: This isn't about you just liking her videos or finding her interesting. It's about the accusation that she's an outsider or knows little about games.

Not covering something in a video doesn't mean she doesn't know about it.
If I make a video about cats, it doesn't mean I am unaware of dogs and gerbils.

Why are women expected to cover EVERYTHING, and if they don't, it automatically means they have a "lack of knowledge"? Don't you think this is odd? Nobody in their right mind would accuse a male content creator of not knowing about topics they didn't cover (yet?).

I did accuse one male creator actually after the screeningof a movie in a cinema in my early 20s! But accuse is a heavy word, lets say I expressed my opinion.

Criticising her does not mean accusing her or taking a militant stance against her. She posts her videos and opinions so that they are open to public debate, both from people who agree and disagree with her, so that she can improve or amend her mistakes and we learn from it too. Even though the debate pool is filled with GG vitriol.

Jerykk · Jun 30, 2018

Mesoian said:
There's a stream where ladies in evening wear sit around, play board games and drink. They're in full make up, they look very nice, a little skin is shown. The default reaction to that from their chat should not be "BOOOBS TAKE OFF YOUR TOP SHOW THE TIDDY". Using fashion to drawn people in is fine, we've done that for literally thousands of years and just because someone is wearing something provocative doesn't mean people viewing them get a pass to act poorly. That kind of behavior doesn't fly in sex cam chats, I don't know why you'd think it'd be fine on twitch.

I'm pretty sure making perverted requests is allowed in sex cam chats.

Deleted member 8861 · Jun 30, 2018

I feel kind of bad for liking so many sexualized characters now...

I mean, I can definitely understand why people are put off by a joke trophy for trying to upskirt 2B, but it still gets a laugh out of me as I can see it in a self-deprecating/shaming light. The losing clothing stuff apparently happens with 9S too so that doesn't bother me either, though I recognize that sexualized men and women have different connotations. And I think it's deliberately humorous to leave the characters in their undergarments since it's so dissonant with the tone of the game. (Knowing that people think doing the same to an actual person is acceptable, however, does not get a laugh.)

I can excuse and enjoy sexualization so long as the character has a developed personality, I guess. Not my place to speak on it but I hope that's okay...

RpgN · Jun 30, 2018

Funyarinpa said:
I feel kind of bad for liking so many sexualized characters now...

I mean, I can definitely understand why people are put off by a joke trophy for trying to upskirt 2B, but it still gets a laugh out of me as I can see it in a self-deprecating/shaming light. The losing clothing stuff apparently happens with 9S too so that doesn't bother me either (though I recognize that sexualized men and women have different connotations). (Knowing that people think doing the same to an actual woman is acceptable, however, does not get a laugh.)

I can excuse and enjoy sexualization so long as the character has a developed personality, I guess. Not my place to speak on it but I hope that's okay...

Hey...I don't think (I hope) the intention is to make you feel bad. It is to make you understand why others feel bad.

It is difficult to know/understand how it feels when the majority of the media is alienating you and it is seen as perfectly normal.

I used to laugh at those kinds of jokes too, boob jokes in RPG games, shower scenes and more. But after years having it done to your gender, it gets to you when you grow up. If I ignore the fact that it happens everywhere or that it is forced on playable female characters mostly, then I can laugh about it too.

Some women realise how it's a pattern that indirectly limits what women can become (it is an enforcing role that affects real people). Other women don't notice it and end up liking it as well for being forced to see it as normal at an early age. Other women just like it without influence from media. This applies to guys as well to a lesser extend.

That's why you always have conflicts between 2 groups who don't understand each other. The fact that you understand and are welcoming to other view points should be enough. You can continue enjoying the media you consume while understanding that it can be harmful to others.

People can change and be careful about what they consume. I understand if you might feel bad now that you're thinking more about it. But you don't need to feel bad about it or feel forced to change your opinion. Acceptance of others is enough. If you feel that you want to change what you consume, that should be a choice made by you.

Master Alucard · Jun 30, 2018

Mesoian said:
I mean, I know your banned but that's not asking to have it both ways.

There's a stream where ladies in evening wear sit around, play board games and drink. They're in full make up, they look very nice, a little skin is shown. The default reaction to that from their chat should not be "BOOOBS TAKE OFF YOUR TOP SHOW THE TIDDY". Using fashion to drawn people in is fine, we've done that for literally thousands of years and just because someone is wearing something provocative doesn't mean people viewing them get a pass to act poorly. That kind of behavior doesn't fly in sex cam chats, I don't know why you'd think it'd be fine on twitch.

MariosInseem.gif

it's fine if you're using fashion, but when you start doing 10 squats for 10 bucks it's kinda over the line. i mean they choose to walk twitch policy line because twitch is so much bigger than chaturbate

Deleted member 8861 · Jun 30, 2018

RpgN said:
Hey...I don't think (I hope) the intention is to make you feel bad. It is to make you understand why others feel bad.

It is difficult to know/understand how it feels when the majority of the media is alienating you and it is seen as perfectly normal.

I used to laugh at those kinds of jokes too, boob jokes in RPG games, shower scenes and more. But after years having it done to your gender, it gets to you when you grow up. If I ignore the fact that it happens everywhere or that it is forced on playable female characters mostly, then I can laugh about it too.

Some women realise how it's a pattern that indirectly limits what women can become (it is an enforcing role that affects real people). Other women don't notice it and end up liking it as well for being forced to see it as normal at an early age. Other women just like it without influence from media. This applies to guys as well to a lesser extend.

That's why you always have conflicts between 2 groups who don't understand each other. The fact that you understand and are welcoming to other view points should be enough. You can continue enjoying the media you consume while understanding that it can be harmful to others.

People can change and be careful about what they consume. I understand if you might feel bad now that you're thinking more about it. But you don't need to feel bad about it or feel forced to change your opinion. Acceptance of others is enough. If you feel that you want to change what you consume, that should be a choice made by you.

Hey... thank you so much. This is really reassuring.

Weltall Zero · Jun 30, 2018

It happened, guys. Government regulating lootboxes is now "censorship". The word finally acquired the meaning GamerGate always intended: "changes I don't like".

Spyware said:
Here is the "100% physique" woman. You can't change the body type (yet?) for either men or women but the slider goes from no muscle definition to this.

That's... pretty damn scrawny for a "100% physique" women. I see women with broader shoulders and thicker biceps at my gym and pool. And what's up with that super thin belly? The standard female orc model from WoW is far more buff:

Funyarinpa said:
I feel kind of bad for liking so many sexualized characters now...

I mean, I can definitely understand why people are put off by a joke trophy for trying to upskirt 2B, but it still gets a laugh out of me as I can see it in a self-deprecating/shaming light. The losing clothing stuff apparently happens with 9S too so that doesn't bother me either, though I recognize that sexualized men and women have different connotations. And I think it's deliberately humorous to leave the characters in their undergarments since it's so dissonant with the tone of the game. (Knowing that people think doing the same to an actual person is acceptable, however, does not get a laugh.)

I can excuse and enjoy sexualization so long as the character has a developed personality, I guess. Not my place to speak on it but I hope that's okay...

Sounds to me you're just struggling with the unconfortable realization of it all and your first instinct (a very natural one) is trying to find ways that the sexualization in works you like is justified. It being "ironic" or "self-deprecating" in Nier: Automata is not a new argument, but it's every bit as flimsy now as it was then.

The next step is solving this cognitive dissonance by understanding that you can still appreciate and enjoy works even while acknowledging the problematic elements in them, and understanding you're not a bad person for doing so. This is a very important step because otherwise your instinct will always be to justify and "excuse" these elements, when this is absolutely not your responsibility (or even something that you should do!). If you keep feeling negative emotions like shame when noticing them, you will eventually condition yourself not to notice them, and that's how the status quo is upheld.

Spyware · Jun 30, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
It happened, guys. Government regulating lootboxes is now "censorship". The word finally acquired the meaning GamerGate always intended: "changes I don't like".

That's... pretty damn scrawny for a "100% physique" women. I see women with broader shoulders and thicker biceps at my gym and pool. And what's up with that super thin belly? The standard female orc model from WoW is far more buff:

Yeah as said, you can't change the body "type". Every woman is the exact same and the only difference is in the muscle "definition". Basically a setting for how transparent the muscle texture should be. All the men are also the same. Everyone is Conan or the ladies of the Conan universe. Except you can actually make their breasts small and have them at least look like they have some muscles and not just the usual super smooth bodies. Which was a surprise. Conan Exiles is far from perfect, but I feel like celebrating even small steps in the right direction. Even with its faults, the game made me happy. It's unlikely that they will add buff bodies for females too but I keep hoping.

I love the orc women! ...if you ignore that the men actually look like orcs and not buff recolored humans like the women do. WoW has a super serious issue with how the men are beastly and the women are just recolored humans with longer teeth. Or in case of the Tauren and even the much later added Worgen and Pandaren... animals with human breasts.
Anyway, my first WoW main was a badass orc woman!

I prefer GW's approach to beast women for sure.
(I actually had to do some research regarding the Kodan, I couldn't tell which ones were women...)
Non-playable:

And the playable charr. Might call this one my "main". It's the one I played all dungeons with.

Deleted member 8861 · Jun 30, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
Sounds to me you're just struggling with the unconfortable realization of it all and your first instinct (a very natural one) is trying to find ways that the sexualization in works you like is justified. It being "ironic" or "self-deprecating" in Nier: Automata is not a new argument, but it's every bit as flimsy now as it was then.

The next step is solving this cognitive dissonance by understanding that you can still appreciate and enjoy works even while acknowledging the problematic elements in them, and understanding you're not a bad person for doing so. This is a very important step because otherwise your instinct will always be to justify and "excuse" these elements, when this is absolutely not your responsibility (or even something that you should do!). If you keep feeling negative emotions like shame when noticing them, you will eventually condition yourself not to notice them, and that's how the status quo is upheld.

Thanks. I try to generally face and explain such emotions, but the main reason for my discomfort here is the fact that I can enjoy the problematic elements themselves in the first place. :/

Spyware · Jun 30, 2018

Spyware said:
Yeah as said, you can't change the body "type". Every woman is the exact same and the only difference is in the muscle "definition". Basically a setting for how transparent the muscle texture should be. All the men are also the same. Everyone is Conan or the ladies of the Conan universe. Except you can actually make their breasts small and have them at least look like they have some muscles and not just the usual super smooth bodies. Which was a surprise. Conan Exiles is far from perfect, but I feel like celebrating even small steps in the right direction. Even with its faults, the game made me happy. It's unlikely that they will add buff bodies for females too but I keep hoping.

I love the orc women! ...if you ignore that the men actually look like orcs and not buff recolored humans like the women do. WoW has a super serious issue with how the men are beastly and the women are just recolored humans with longer teeth. Or in case of the Tauren and even the much later added Worgen and Pandaren... animals with human breasts.
Anyway, my first WoW main was a badass orc woman!

I prefer GW's approach to beast women for sure.
(I actually had to do some research regarding the Kodan, I couldn't tell which ones were women...)
Non-playable:

And the playable charr. Might call this one my "main". It's the one I played all dungeons with.

I could possibly forgive Blizzard for making goblin women very "human" with breasts and everything, but yet again ArenaNet has shown that you can absolutely make a goblin-ish race without giving them human breasts.

...yeah I have a big problem with Blizzard :P

Edit: Gah this was supposed to be an edit. Pressed the wrong button. I should go to sleep.

Biestmann · Jun 30, 2018

Regarding Twitch streamers showing off a lot of skin, I agree that is their own choice to make. Even if they do it with the intent of attracting more male viewers, I won't fault them for making use of their own body in that way. I'll say that I question if they let the crass viewers reign free in chat, as I don't think they should subject themselves to that behavior, but that does not change the fact they should not receive those kind of comments in the first place.

Jerykk said:
I'm pretty sure making perverted requests is allowed in sex cam chats.

Sex cams are a business and expression of self. What you call request, I call demand. Entitled men that think they own a cam girl and can have her do what they want are quick to get banned from their channel.

Snormy · Jun 30, 2018

Sex cams are also a service that is part of the adult industry but platforms like Twitch isn't and the call for lewd acts on these platforms are wrong for all kinds of reasons. I don't think they are really comparable. If this was the kind of content they wanted to show then perhaps they can run both platforms at different times, that is their choice.

That said, thirsty people acting disgusting is always horrible to see and on the internet seems to bring out the worst of it.

Shingi_70 · Jun 30, 2018

Question I guess. I'm looking forward to Soul Calibur 6 and as a man I like the character desgines but can understand why they're problematic.

I see alot of people defend Ivy's design by saying she's a Dom. However as someone who likes femdom, female Dom's don't really wear strap like Bungie cords like that. The closet thing to what a lot of Dom's wear are probably her outfit from 5 and ironically enough her alt from Soul Cal 2 I think. The one with the overcoat.

RpgN · Jun 30, 2018

Funyarinpa said:
Hey... thank you so much. This is really reassuring.

You're welcome. I wish it could be possible to talk like this all the time but not everyone is willing to be open like that.

Funyarinpa said:
Thanks. I try to generally face and explain such emotions, but the main reason for my discomfort here is the fact that I can enjoy the problematic elements themselves in the first place. :/

So...I'm trying to understand this. Are you feeling bad that you're enjoying the pandering or are you feeling bad that you're enjoying the pandering knowing it causes problem?

Let me give you my perspective for instance. When I see fanservice content aimed at women, I don't know how to react to it. I'm not used to seeing hot guys trying to be sexy for the women and when I see it, I feel conflicted. Hot guys looking attractive is one thing. But when guys are TRYING to work it, I do find it appealing but also questioning if I should be enjoying it at all. Lately we are seeing more of this which is waking up some inner feelings I didn't know I had XD Ironically it's the Japanese that pander to women more even when their content can be very harmful and excessive.

I'm bringing it especially up since this appeared on my YouTube subscriptions today.

It's not very suggestive but it starts after around 1:30 min. They don't normally try like this and I'm not sure if they succeeded. What do you think ladies?

Snormy · Jun 30, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
That's... pretty damn scrawny for a "100% physique" women. I see women with broader shoulders and thicker biceps at my gym and pool. And what's up with that super thin belly? The standard female orc model from WoW is far more buff:

To be fair, that goes more to body shape/size I think which they said isn't possible to change at the moment so everyone is running that default size the only difference would be the muscles.

The muscle tone I think is on similar to Black Desert's, maybe better. Black Desert lets you alter the shape of your character though, it has sliders all over the place. Here are some quick screenshots I did for comparisons but if some areas look a bit weird is because I'm bad with sliders and I didn't bother with the hands and feet at all because like... 3 sliders per part and 3 parts per finger then the wrist etc is just too much effort.

Pretty much maxed size in all areas that you can group together

Pretty buff but not max.

Clothes

A more lithe build but still with the same muscle tone

BDO is frustrating because for all the sliders they give you they place a bunch of dumb limitations and restrictions on each character. The bust size cannot go lower than certain levels. You can't actually make a proper short character without using the Tamer (loli) class. You can't actually edit the size of your head at all and a bunch of other weird restrictions.

Shingi_70 said:
Question I guess. I'm looking forward to Soul Calibur 6 and as a man I like the character desgines but can understand why they're problematic.

I see alot of people defend Ivy's design by saying she's a Dom. However as someone who likes femdom, female Dom's don't really wear strap like Bungie cords like that. The closet thing to what a lot of Dom's wear are probably her outfit from 5 and ironically enough her alt from Soul Cal 2 I think. The one with the overcoat.

I don't really see the question but being a dom and fighting in dom wear are two separate things. It also feels like tacking on an excuse just to have the character in whatever shape and form they want. This one is in a sling bikini because she is a model for beach wear. This one is in a sexy cop suit because that is her work wear when she isn't fighting and working at the strip club. This one is because she literally can't afford real clothes etc. Their reasons feel weak and more like an excuse hastily brought up than anything with consideration and actual reasoning behind it. Furthermore characters like Ivy has had a decent costume in the past, one that is far more fitting as a default.

RpgN · Jun 30, 2018

Shingi_70 said:
Question I guess. I'm looking forward to Soul Calibur 6 and as a man I like the character desgines but can understand why they're problematic.

I see alot of people defend Ivy's design by saying she's a Dom. However as someone who likes femdom, female Dom's don't really wear strap like Bungie cords like that. The closet thing to what a lot of Dom's wear are probably her outfit from 5 and ironically enough her alt from Soul Cal 2 I think. The one with the overcoat.

What is your question exactly?

Deleted member 8861 · Jun 30, 2018

RpgN said:
So...I'm trying to understand this. Are you feeling bad that you're enjoying the pandering or are you feeling bad that you're enjoying the pandering knowing it causes problem?

I feel bad that I'm enjoying the pandering even though it's so harmful. If I were considering pandering in a vacuum I would've probably been able to enjoy it quite easily (just thinking of it is Taro embracing his sexuality in his work, for example), but knowing that it reinforces already harmful sexist norms wedged deep into society and thus contributes to their harm, I feel bad that I can enjoy them at all.

I think a good example (which made me post here) is that recent thread about Automata's XB1 port tracking a "voyeurism attempts" stat. I see how it makes light of upskirting, a form of sexual harassment, but it's still hilarious to me, somehow, that it's tracked. I can both find humor in it (both due to how it's such a weird and unexpected stat and because the game expects people to do that) and see how it's sexist and harmful.

But this isn't just for fucked up messaging in a game- I tend to enjoy sexualized depictions in general. For example, I can see how Bayonetta's leering camera angles can make people very uncomfortable, but I can still enjoy it as a stylistic choice in how extremely it's sexualized. Generally speaking, I quite enjoy almost any visually sexualized character who has a well-developed personality (even though, going by this thread at least, that's sexist/harmful in its own right).

PtM · Jun 30, 2018

Funyarinpa said:
Thanks. I try to generally face and explain such emotions, but the main reason for my discomfort here is the fact that I can enjoy the problematic elements themselves in the first place. :/

You can enjoy them, just be aware that you're being catered to. Don't take it for granted. People also love junk food.

Shingi_70 · Jun 30, 2018

Forgot the actual question, and it turned more into an observation.

I guess for a market that outrages about so called outrage culture, many of the Gamergate types seem hypocritical when it comes to cherry picking examples or things from articles.

It also seems like alot of these people don't understand the difference between sexuality and problematic content, after being wrapped in a bubble for so long.

I just don't get the correlation alot of these guys make about not liking or noticing how women are potrayed in certain games makes someone q sexually puritian. Especially when these same people are some of the most uptight people you'd meet.

ShyMel · Jun 30, 2018

atomsk eater said:
I'd be interested in this. Even as an otome fan there's often a lot of strict gender role or sexist stuff in some otoge.

Indeed. I finished Hino's route in 7'scarlet last night and the whole

"I must protect Ichiko/MC because I failed as a middle schooler when trying to protect her then"

plot element was really meh.

Deleted member 8861 · Jun 30, 2018

Shingi_70 said:
I just don't get the correlation alot of these guys make about not liking or noticing how women are potrayed in certain games makes someone q sexually puritian. Especially when these same people are some of the most uptight people you'd meet.

To them, the sole effect of sexualized female characters is providing titillation. In that sense, people calling that sexist appears to them as if someone were brigading against characters because they're titillating. So they think that them being titillating is the only reason someone could not want sexualized women in games.

They ignore the alienation of women gamers this status quo creates, they actively refuse to accept criticism of character portrayals, and all of this compounds a sexist society and a gaming culture that's already had a male-dominated start, further erasing the voices of those who no longer want to feel like they're only welcome in this medium based on how sexually attractive they are.

Shingi_70 · Jun 30, 2018

Funyarinpa said:
To them, the sole effect of sexualized female characters is providing titillation. In that sense, people calling that sexist appears to them as if someone were brigading against characters because they're titillating. So they think that them being titillating is the only reason someone could not want sexualized women in games.

They ignore the alienation of women gamers this status quo creates, they actively refuse to accept criticism of character portrayals, and all of this compounds a sexist society and a gaming culture that's already had a male-dominated start, further erasing the voices of those who no longer want to feel like they're only welcome in this medium based on how sexually attractive they are.

It's one thing I don't understand. Alot of these dudes alienate women gamers, but then complain how they can't get a girlfriend or why aren't there any women that share their interests.

Dice · Jun 30, 2018

Shingi_70 said:
It's one thing I don't understand. Alot of these dudes alienate women gamers, but then complain how they can't get a girlfriend or why aren't there any women that share their interests.

Ironic, right?

BossAttack · Jun 30, 2018

So, I was thinking to myself from the last couple pages, is it even possible to "sexualize" a male character? Oh yes, you can dress males in skimpy/sexy clothing, but does that actually "sexualize" them? Remember, to sexualize is to mean you are intentionally trying to make them attractive to others. One of the problems I have wrapping my head around this is the idea that men don't want to be sexualized. All dudes want to be sexually attractive and straight dudes, for the most part, definitely want women to slobber all over them just due to the sight of them and whatever their wearing. Men aren't told by society that they need to be prudish, in fact it's just the opposite, everything marketed towards men is the idea that if you buy this product women will want to sleep with you. The word "man-whore" isn't really a thing, men are not shamed for being promiscuous, rather men are giving more "cred" the more women they allegedly bed.

Thus, it's hard for me to picture a scenario where the "sexualization" of men is ever really a thing because, at the end of the day, that's what men generally want to be seen as, a sex symbol. But, even more of a problem is that of attraction which I mentioned at the top. The fact is that women generally don't have some universal concept of what is "titillating" concerning men. When it comes to sexualizing women it's rather easy, the default is skimpy clothing + large breasts and butts= Profit. But, when it comes to men there is no "default" as to what is "attractive." Is it burly men with no shirts? Is it flamboyant Vega from Street Fighter? Is it frickin softy 9S from Nier? Is it skin-tight, buttocks Solid Snake? Is it Captain America or Tony Stark? There's no standard because women don't view attraction through the same dominant visual lens as men do, it's a factor but not the overriding one driving everything.

Which brings me back to the top, is it even possible to sexualize a male character?

Morrigan · Jun 30, 2018

BossAttack said:
Which brings me back to the top, is it even possible to sexualize a male character?

This was posted back in April:

BossAttack · Jun 30, 2018

Morrigan said:
This was posted back in April:

I don't doubt that is sexualized, but when we speak in terms of "sexualization" we are often speaking in the negative ie female characters shouldn't be reduced to mere titillation. My question is whether it is possible for this to apply to men. Or rather, not so much is it possible, but if would ever be seen as a negative. For instance, let's say you have a game where you play as a character that has basically zero personality or real character but looks like the above dude, dresses like him, and moves like him. And, as a result, every character of the opposite sex looks at him like so:

Would any straight guy view that as a negative? Or would they view that as just another fantasy?

What I'm ultimately getting at is that "sexualization" and sexism in general has a kind of "double standard," for lack of a better term, but it exists due to power dynamics. No matter how hard you try, I don't think men really can be sexualized because: A) men want to be sex symbols and B) men run the world. In a male dominated world there is no real risk of being belittled or stigmatized for expressing your sexuality. A man doesn't have to worry about whether his opinion will be taken seriously in a meeting because he dresses "sexy." He doesn't have to worry about being abducted and raped because he went outside walking around in a speedo. He doesn't worry if a women enters a man's bathroom because the risk of a woman overpowering him is minimal. He doesn't worry about being called a "whore" because he dared to have more than one sexual partner. Etc. When you hold all the power, there isn't that same fear of losing respect or even loss of life.

I guess it's similar to racism in that regards, in that it's not exactly possible to be racist towards white people, especially white men. Yes, you can view them as "inferior" and discriminate against them. But, racism is both oppression and discrimination. So, you can say, "man, all white people do X or look like X" jokes all you want and it can't really hurt anyone because the power dynamics aren't the same. There is no oppression of the white race. And, without that oppression racism doesn't really have any bite, because no matter how hateful you are as a minority a white person can laugh it off and walk away secure that they still hold all the power in their respective society. And, I think sexualization works the same way with regards to men. It can never hurt men, so it can never be really viewed as a negative.

I don't know what my point is anymore, I'm just rambling now.

Morrigan · Jun 30, 2018

You are right that privilege plays a strong role. But, well, the dude from FF Mevius had a skimpy outfit, and it made male gamers uncomfortable, so his outfit was "adjusted" by Square Enix for the final release to make it less skimpy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Azar Kiowa · Jun 30, 2018

Such a non-issue until people one day decided to make it one. Look no further than comics: perfect bods and skintight suits are the NORM. It's idealized reality. Consumers like looking at attractive characters, deal with it. People who go around trying to make people feel guilty for that make my skin crawl. And no, having these beautiful characters populate my entertainment has not affected how I view people in real life, male or female.

Spyware · Jun 30, 2018

I can't think of a single sexualized man in gaming. Everything is just power fantasy and "show off"-yness.
I think it's the lack of objectification that does it. Whenever a woman is sexualized, she's almost always objectified too, right? Men always seem more in control of it all. There is (usually?) nothing like the "male gaze camera" when there are "sexy men" on screen like there is with women. I dunno what does it really but it feels like that might be the biggest difference.

If I look at other media then maybe Nightwing? Try to google "Nightwing's butt" for example, it's apparently a thing. And many people around me that likes comics usually find him pretty sexy.

Morrigan said:
This was posted back in April:

He must breathe through his skin!

Anyway, that was... a ride. It had stuff I see as pretty "dudebro" like the humping, the uh... semen stuff and some typical "masculine" posing. But then the rest was pretty much an imitation of what we see women do in every media all the time (and just as ridiculous, it turned me off instead of on, haha).

Amiibola · Jun 30, 2018

We men have our own issues. The depiction of men in media usually paints and unrealistic (almost unreachable) idea of masculinity and manhood

A man can be insecure, soft, weak, introverted, etc... Usually characters having some of those traits are either cannon fodder or depicted as undesirable creep (there's a thread about that in the off topic forum)

So... No, it's not like we have it easy, either.

Deleted member 4976 · Jun 30, 2018

Azar Kiowa said:
Such a non-issue until people one day decided to make it one. Look no further than comics: perfect bods and skintight suits are the NORM. It's idealized reality. Consumers like looking at attractive characters, deal with it. People who go around trying to make people feel guilty for that make my skin crawl. And no, having these beautiful characters populate my entertainment has not affected how I view people in real life, male or female.

Would've been nice if you actually bothered to read the OP instead of going straight for the keyboard to post nonsense.

Redcrayon · Jun 30, 2018

Azar Kiowa said:
Such a non-issue until people one day decided to make it one. Look no further than comics: perfect bods and skintight suits are the NORM. It's idealized reality. Consumers like looking at attractive characters, deal with it. People who go around trying to make people feel guilty for that make my skin crawl. And no, having these beautiful characters populate my entertainment has not affected how I view people in real life, male or female.

Your idealised reality. Your feelings, your viewpoint. Some key points in this discussion: it's not just about you and what you find attractive, nor is the use of sexualised character design in any way balanced across any visual medium. Try reading the OP.

Opa-Pa · Jun 30, 2018

BossAttack said:
I don't doubt that is sexualized, but when we speak in terms of "sexualization" we are often speaking in the negative ie female characters shouldn't be reduced to mere titillation. My question is whether it is possible for this to apply to men. Or rather, not so much is it possible, but if would ever be seen as a negative. For instance, let's say you have a game where you play as a character that has basically zero personality or real character but looks like the above dude, dresses like him, and moves like him. And, as a result, every character of the opposite sex looks at him like so:

Would any straight guy view that as a negative? Or would they view that as just another fantasy?

What I'm ultimately getting at is that "sexualization" and sexism in general has a kind of "double standard," for lack of a better term, but it exists due to power dynamics. No matter how hard you try, I don't think men really can be sexualized because: A) men want to be sex symbols and B) men run the world. In a male dominated world there is no real risk of being belittled or stigmatized for expressing your sexuality. A man doesn't have to worry about whether his opinion will be taken seriously in a meeting because he dresses "sexy." He doesn't have to worry about being abducted and raped because he went outside walking around in a speedo. He doesn't worry if a women enters a man's bathroom because the risk of a woman overpowering him is minimal. He doesn't worry about being called a "whore" because he dared to have more than one sexual partner. Etc. When you hold all the power, there isn't that same fear of losing respect or even loss of life.

I guess it's similar to racism in that regards, in that it's not exactly possible to be racist towards white people, especially white men. Yes, you can view them as "inferior" and discriminate against them. But, racism is both oppression and discrimination. So, you can say, "man, all white people do X or look like X" jokes all you want and it can't really hurt anyone because the power dynamics aren't the same. There is no oppression of the white race. And, without that oppression racism doesn't really have any bite, because no matter how hateful you are as a minority a white person can laugh it off and walk away secure that they still hold all the power in their respective society. And, I think sexualization works the same way with regards to men. It can never hurt men, so it can never be really viewed as a negative.

I don't know what my point is anymore, I'm just rambling now.

I agree with everything you say, it's all about power dynamics and I think it's fundamentally impossible to objectify men, or at least to the same degree women usually are. It's part of the reason why I think simply "balancing things out" in terms of fanservice won't really fix anything (outside of pleasing female players, which may be a worthy cause too, I suppose), but the way women are treated, let alone the way men are in the outside world won't change a single bit because more men are sexualized in mainstream gaming.

Personally I don't mind the idea, I just don't like when people suggest it as a solution.

And OT, but the recent racism in gaming thread had more examples of "racism against whites" than I ever expected to see lol.

Amiibola said:
We men have our own issues. The depiction of men in media usually paints and unrealistic (almost unreachable) idea of masculinity and manhood

A man can be insecure, soft, weak, introverted, etc... Usually characters having some of those traits are either cannon fodder or depicted as undesirable creep (there's a thread about that in the off topic forum)

So... No, it's not like we have it easy, either.

I mean you're not wrong, but comparatively we men have it easier than pretty much every other subset of the population by a long shot, and ironically all these bad things are men's own doing. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity are the root of it all, which is why it's so annoying to me that some hate feminism so much.

Amiibola · Jun 30, 2018

Opa-Pa said:
but comparatively we men have it easier than pretty much every other subset of the population by a long shot, and ironically all these bad things are men's own doing. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity are the root of it all, which is why it's so annoying to me that some hate feminism so much.

Not denying it of course, but it was an answer to BossAttack 's post. And... yeah, it is a problem created by men themselves wich makes it annoyingly ironic, but it's still an issue that needs to be adressed.

Redcrayon · Jun 30, 2018

BossAttack said:
When you hold all the power, there isn't that same fear of losing respect or even loss of life.

Interesting post, thanks for that. When you hold the power, the fear is loss of that power/privilege instead. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression".

Redcrayon · Jun 30, 2018

Morrigan said:
You are right that privilege plays a strong role. But, well, the dude from FF Mevius had a skimpy outfit, and it made male gamers uncomfortable, so his outfit was "adjusted" by Square Enix for the final release to make it less skimpy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dimly remember at one point pre-release Gunvolt's character design had a bare midriff too, that was then changed due to feedback. It's a really, really tiny change though. I remember arguing on Gaf that I liked the newer design, but I think it was my usual tedious pedantry regarding sensible outdoors wear and combat gear for adventurers!

I find it strange that they responded to such minor criticism from a presumed young male audience considering how dozens of ridiculously sexualised female outfits make it across every year.

Edit: here we are, from Siliconera

Siliconera readers brought to our attention that Inti Creates have slightly altered the design of the Gunvolt character himself, doing away with his bare midriff and ponytail for the game's U.S. release. You can see the difference in the two designs above. It isn't a big change, but it was noticeable enough for people to pick up on it.

I asked Inti Creates CEO Takuya Aizu just why the change had been made, and Aizu explained:

"During the development of Gunvolt, we researched what kind of design would appeal to boys between the ages of 10 and 14—who we assume will be the game's main purchasers—in North America.

"As a result, we changed Gunvolt's design, because braided hair and a bare midriff were unpopular among them. However, these changes are not final. We will continue to do research into the matter."

Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2014/04/10/inti-creates-changed-gunvolts-design-west/#lHVbSdryaxVPaTgd.99

Amiibola · Jun 30, 2018

Morrigan said:
You are right that privilege plays a strong role. But, well, the dude from FF Mevius had a skimpy outfit, and it made male gamers uncomfortable, so his outfit was "adjusted" by Square Enix for the final release to make it less skimpy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I looked this up. Holy fuck what? Why!?

Fuck feedback!

It wasn't even that bad ffs

PlanetSmasher · Jun 30, 2018

Amiibola said:
I looked this up. Holy fuck what? Why!?

Fuck feedback!

It wasn't even that bad ffs

Comparatively, they did the same thing with one of Aqua's outfits in the Kingdom Hearts games (redesigning it to show less back) and fans (likely the same ones who got mad about Wol's back being VISIBLE) got furious.

I had no idea back-revealing clothes were such a sticking point for people.

Persephone · Jun 30, 2018

Hmmm im pissed about the asscreed unity boxart but Ubi has a good track record with female characters so ill let this one slide with only minimal side-eye. Also Kassandra is my wife *heart eyes*

Biestmann · Jun 30, 2018

PlanetSmasher said:
Comparatively, they did the same thing with one of Aqua's outfits in the Kingdom Hearts games (redesigning it to show less back) and fans (likely the same ones who got mad about Wol's back being VISIBLE) got furious.

I had no idea back-revealing clothes were such a sticking point for people.

Since we're on the topic of male privilege, I assume that most don't specifically take issue with the specific body part covered, but the act of covering happening at all. Do it once, they fear it might happen again, and soon they lose all that skin they yearn for for good. It's a defensive mechanism rooted in fear over losing something they have come to expect, and also very much want. They fear to lose that privilege.

playXray · Jun 30, 2018

The irony here is that many gamers actually find this kind of female exploitation to be a distraction from the core concepts of a game. I find it less immersive when women are inexplicably running around in bikinis. Sadly, I think game designers/developers/publishers/some other clowns are still trying to cater to the 1980s mentality that "sex sells".

BossAttack · Jun 30, 2018

Morrigan said:
You are right that privilege plays a strong role. But, well, the dude from FF Mevius had a skimpy outfit, and it made male gamers uncomfortable, so his outfit was "adjusted" by Square Enix for the final release to make it less skimpy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

True. I was going to bring up something similar which is that there exists a portion of men that react negatively to perceived "femininity" of men. It's not so much that Mevius is "sexualized" it's that he looks to feminine. And, nothing strokes the anger of online keyboard "men" than the idea that men can be "feminine" because they view women as "weak" as below them. They want to be sexualized, but only in the ways that insure they are still in power. Which, I guess, ties back into my original point. Oh, and of course there is good ol' fashioned homophobia.

Opa-Pa said:
I agree with everything you say, it's all about power dynamics and I think it's fundamentally impossible to objectify men, or at least to the same degree women usually are. It's part of the reason why I think simply "balancing things out" in terms of fanservice won't really fix anything (outside of pleasing female players, which may be a worthy cause too, I suppose), but the way women are treated, let alone the way men are in the outside world won't change a single bit because more men are sexualized in mainstream gaming.

Personally I don't mind the idea, I just don't like when people suggest it as a solution.

That's exactly why I brought it up because that "solution" is often brought up as a means of solving sexualization of women. But, it is a disingenuous solution because of the reasons I listed, men really can't be objectified the same way women are.

PlanetSmasher · Jun 30, 2018

playXray said:
The irony here is that many gamers actually find this kind of female exploitation to be a distraction from the core concepts of a game. I find it less immersive when women are inexplicably running around in bikinis. Sadly, I think game designers/developers/publishers/some other clowns are still trying to cater to the 1980s mentality that "sex sells".

I think it's partially the sex sells thing, and at least in Japanese games in particular, it's kind of an "inmates running the asylum" kind of situation. The people making games now are the people who were super into that stuff when they were kids and now they're making what they wanted to see more of when they were young. The snake is essentially eating its own tail at this point.

Xaszatm · Jun 30, 2018

Redcrayon said:
Your idealised reality. Your feelings, your viewpoint. Some key points in this discussion: it's not just about you and what you find attractive, nor is the use of sexualised character design in any way balanced across any visual medium. Try reading the OP.

I don't understand. Aren't I, a random person posting on the internet, by default the most important person in the world? The world clearly revolves around me!

/s

I like how much of a trap this thread still is...

Persephone said:
Hmmm im pissed about the asscreed unity boxart but Ubi has a good track record with female characters so ill let this one slide with only minimal side-eye. Also Kassandra is my wife *heart eyes*

Er...you mean Odyssey? Unity came out in like 2014. Unity had the problem where they didn't have a female model for co-op and gave the excuse of it being too hard to animate.

Redcrayon · Jun 30, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Er...you mean Odyssey? Unity came out in like 2014. Unity had the problem where they didn't have a female model for co-op and gave the excuse of it being too hard to animate.

What's the deal with Odyssey? Is it a 'male and female lead characters, male takes the lead by default on the boxart' situation like Mass Effect?

Laiza · Jun 30, 2018

PlanetSmasher said:
I think it's partially the sex sells thing, and at least in Japanese games in particular, it's kind of an "inmates running the asylum" kind of situation. The people making games now are the people who were super into that stuff when they were kids and now they're making what they wanted to see more of when they were young. The snake is essentially eating its own tail at this point.

At least for Japan, this is definitely a huge chunk of it, both for their video games and for their other media (including manga and anime). There are so many design decisions that were very clearly obviously made with a very narrow view of what "looks good" (hence why you see "zettai ryouiki" EVERYWHERE), with minimal thought being put into the actual character they're portraying and whether or not anything they put together makes logical sense. Huge numbers of artists working in the industry have zero life drawing experience and are imitating the works of artists that came before them without growing past it.

And the people on top don't care and just let them do whatever. It's quite vexing, really.

PlanetSmasher · Jun 30, 2018

Laiza said:
At least for Japan, this is definitely a huge chunk of it, both for their video games and for their other media (including manga and anime). There are so many design decisions that were very clearly obviously made with a very narrow view of what "looks good" (hence why you see "zettai ryouiki" EVERYWHERE), with minimal thought being put into the actual character they're portraying and whether or not anything they put together makes logical sense. Huge numbers of artists working in the industry have zero life drawing experience and are imitating the works of artists that came before them without growing past it.

And the people on top don't care and just let them do whatever. It's quite vexing, really.

Yup. It's depressing as hell. Reading the Valkyria Chronicles 2 art book just made it abundantly clear how a lot of these designers don't actually put any real thought into their designs beyond a basic list of cliches and fetishes.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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