[Poll] When do you foresee gender norms becoming a thing of the past?

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

This is something I've thought about from time to time out of sheer curiosity, but I'm interested to know what everyone else thinks about it.

Gender non-conformity is really starting to make its way into the public conscience, which is awesome, but there are some serious barriers in the way before it can become fully accepted. The biggest obstacle right now is the issue of toxic masculinity, which is a hill a lot of people are willing to die on. It's hard to imagine that we will ever get to a place where most [presently cis-gender] boys and men will feel comfortable doing things like wearing lipstick/make-up and dresses, even in light of [presently cis-gender] girls and women feeling more comfortable wearing buzz cuts and suits. What's interesting is that the aforementioned differences are mostly superficial but seem to be more resilient to non-conformity than more functional differences, like gendered occupations.

I'd like to know what you all think about the timeline for fully integrated gender variance, where people of any gender (cis, trans, agender, and everyone in between) can completely embrace the diversity of gender expression for themselves, without it being even a second thought; where no one would even blink twice at seeing a boy playing with a Barbie, or a girl rocking a buzz cut. How far down the road are we talking? 50 years? 500 years?!

What say you, ERA?!

brainchild said:
I think I need to clarify the OP. Getting rid of gender norms doesn't mean getting rid of gender. Femininity and Masculinity don't have to disappear in order for society to accept that men can be feminine and women can be masculine and that it isn't anything worth raising concern over.

brainchild said:
To be clear, I'm not asking when we will stop making subconscious assumptions about particular sexes simply due to differentiation (which is inevitable, really) but gender norms/roles are many abstractions above the primal differentiation between sexes. It is a social construct so malleable that it is very inconsistent between many different parts of the world. Clearly it has no inherent basis in biology, but rationality, which is then shaped by the society it is borne out of. As highly intelligent beings, this is something I think we have the power to overcome. I'm just not sure when that is.

SpaceRipperStingyEyes · Jul 1, 2018

Never

Halbrand · Jul 1, 2018

SpaceRipperStingyEyes said:
Never

.

Normal · Jul 1, 2018

Don't see it dying.

TheCthultist · Jul 1, 2018

Judging by history? Never.

Prophaniti · Jul 1, 2018

Never

TissueBox · Jul 1, 2018

Imo, I don't think gender norms or roles are bad. It becomes so when people are forced by an oppressive system to 'be' this and 'do' that because 'that's the status quo/what you're supposed to do', which isn't an answer, just identity suffocation. Everyone deserves the choice if it's not physically hurting anyone.

As a whole, I wouldn't be surprised to see cultures by large proportion in the future embracing a fluid perspective to gender. But I still think particular associations will continue to exist for many of them, while shucking away modern cultural tenets in favor of newer trends and perceptions, of course. What is considered 'cool' or 'acceptable' changes like the tides, but whether the scale of this can be amplified has yet to be seen.

Serene · Jul 1, 2018

Society is binary in a lot of ways, and it's hard to envision that as a whole changing, so it's hard to see binary gender definitions and norms as a general thought ever changing.

Meows · Jul 1, 2018

I don't see it changing in Western culture tbh but you never know.

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

SpaceRipperStingyEyes said:
Never

Drewton said:
.

Usyren said:
Don't see it dying.

I'm inclined to agree. However, 'never' is a really, REALLY long time. Lots of things can change between 'now' and 'and infinite amount of time in the future'. I mean, at some point a new species will evolve from our own. I'm just not so sure that it will never not be an issue, even if it's hard to imagine.

-COOLIO- · Jul 1, 2018

brainchild said:
I'm inclined to agree. However, 'never' is a really, REALLY long time. Lots of things can change between 'now' and 'and infinite amount of time in the future'. I mean, at some point a new species will evolve from our own. I'm just not so sure that it will never not be an issue, even if it's hard to imagine.

well if we evolve somehow to the point where we don't have distinct sexes, then sure. but until then, recognizing that the sexes are quite different and having normalized expectations around that fact is okay to an extent.

vicisac · Jul 1, 2018

Biologically speaking, we only have 2 sexes, male and female, hence it makes sense that some roles according to gender will always exist in some way. This suggestion that everyone should be gay or bi and everyone should act in a sexually ambiguous way is crazy talk to me, it denies one of the most basic fact about people.

Village · Jul 1, 2018

I believe at some point it will largely be irrelevant, yes. How far ahead that is, I don't quite know.

Speely · Jul 1, 2018

I am not as pessimistic as some ITT, but I feel like it is not going to happen anytime soon. Traditional masculinity is so deep-rooted that it's going to take a LOT of people dashing themselves against that cliff before we start just treating people like the people they are.

Our generation is one that has to take those hits. Sure, a conversation has been created, and we have more support than ever for non-straight folks, but there are terfs and entitled white gay boys being shitheads every day and hurting the cause of inclusivity.

I guess I just wanted an excuse to call out terfs.

Strangelove_77 · Jul 1, 2018

Until we are all exactly the same mentally and physically, never.

passepied joe · Jul 1, 2018

Never ever!

Sub Level · Jul 1, 2018

I'm sure at some point in a thousand years we will be practically a different species with all kinds of cybernetic and genetic modification. So concepts like gender won't even exist. We might not even have a need to reproduce if we can live perpetually.

Glad I won't live to see that shit.

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

TissueBox said:
Imo, I don't think gender norms or roles are bad. It becomes so when people are forced by an oppressive system to 'be' this and 'do' that because 'that's the status quo/what you're supposed to do', which isn't an answer, just identity suffocation. Everyone deserves the choice if it's not physically hurting anyone.

As a whole, I wouldn't be surprised to see cultures by large proportion in the future embracing a fluid perspective to gender. But I still think particular associations will continue to exist for many of them, while shucking away modern cultural tenets in favor of newer trends and perceptions, of course. What is considered 'cool' or 'acceptable' changes like the tides, but whether the scale of this can be amplified has yet to be seen.

Serene said:
Society is binary in a lot of ways, and it's hard to envision that as a whole changing, so it's hard to see binary gender definitions and norms as a general thought ever changing.

-COOLIO- said:
well if we evolve somehow to the point where we don't have distinct sexes, then sure. but until then, recognizing that the sexes are quite different and having normalized expectations around that fact is okay to an extent.

To be clear, I'm not asking when we will stop making subconscious assumptions about particular sexes simply due to differentiation (which is inevitable, really) but gender norms/roles are many abstractions above the primal differentiation between sexes. It is a social construct so malleable that it is very inconsistent between many different parts of the world. Clearly it has no inherent basis in biology, but rationality, which is then shaped by the society it is borne out of. As highly intelligent beings, this is something I think we have the power to overcome. I'm just not sure when that is.

Village · Jul 1, 2018

vicisac said:
This suggestion that everyone should be gay or bi and everyone should act in a sexually ambiguous way is crazy talk to me, it denies one of the most basic fact about people.

No one asked you to be gay or bi

Also how does that deny anything about people at all?

Deepthought_ · Jul 1, 2018

I don't think toxic masculinity will ever die

1upsuper · Jul 1, 2018

vicisac said:
Biologically speaking, we only have 2 sexes, male and female, hence it makes sense that some roles according to gender will always exist in some way. This suggestion that everyone should be gay or bi and everyone should act in a sexually ambiguous way is crazy talk to me, it denies one of the most basic fact about people.

You are confusing sex and gender. The functions of sex organs need not dictate social behaviors.

Aztechnology · Jul 1, 2018

I mean never in terms of relative time for my life. Definitely not in my life time, hundreds of years at least. I can't even hazard to guess. Something very very drastic would have to change about our bodies etc. As in, non human, non biological. Or at least, not the bodies we were born with. Kind of changes would have to happen, and be extremely common. And even then, there would very likely be "genders" or something along those lines attached to them still.

The best we can hope for, is outside initial appearances. People will respect what others ask to be called. Which obviously still will never have a 100% compliance rate.

Seesaw15 · Jul 1, 2018

We're dying out as a species before gender norms go away

Kuroyume · Jul 1, 2018

You want most men to wear lipstick and dresses?

Deleted member 1570 · Jul 1, 2018

Kuroyume said:
You want most men to wear lipstick and dresses?

Don't kink shame!

Ganransu · Jul 1, 2018

Humans. Humans never change.

We'll continue to be disappointing until the sun gives up and gtfo. This is how humans do.

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

vicisac said:
Biologically speaking, we only have 2 sexes, male and female, hence it makes sense that some roles according to gender will always exist in some way. This suggestion that everyone should be gay or bi and everyone should act in a sexually ambiguous way is crazy talk to me, it denies one of the most basic fact about people.

Apparently you've never heard of interex before. It's biological, you should look it up.

As for the rest of your post, no one is suggesting your sexual orientation should be anything other than what it actually is.

Strangelove77 said:
Until we are all exactly the same mentally and physically, never.

We don't need to be physically and mentally the same to understand that there's no such thing as something being inherently girly or manly.

Korigama · Jul 1, 2018

SpaceRipperStingyEyes said:
Never

.

They aren't going anywhere.

Scrambled Brambles · Jul 1, 2018

I say never. I'm pessimistic tho

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

Aztechnology said:
I mean never in terms of relative time for my life. Definitely not in my life time, hundreds of years at least. I can't even hazard to guess. Something very very drastic would have to change about our bodies etc. As in, non human, non biological. Or at least, not the bodies we were born with. Kind of changes would have to happen, and be extremely common. And even then, there would very likely be "genders" or something along those lines attached to them still.

The best we can hope for, is outside initial appearances. People will respect what others ask to be called. Which obviously still will never have a 100% compliance rate.

I think I need to clarify the OP. Getting rid of gender norms doesn't mean getting rid of gender. Femininity and Masculinity don't have to disappear in order for society to accept that men can be feminine and women can be masculine and that it isn't anything worth raising concern over.

Kuroyume said:
You want most men to wear lipstick and dresses?

I want it to not be a big deal if they choose to do so. Even if they're not trans or drag queens.

Grain Silo · Jul 1, 2018

Nowhere in my lifetime.

LOLDSFAN · Jul 1, 2018

Never going to happen.

Deleted member 4461 · Jul 1, 2018

Never. But I can see people being more positive about those norms being broken.

KillLaCam · Jul 1, 2018

Never. There's always gonna be something consider feminine or masculine. Even if it's just something small. People will definitely accept more people going against the norms though

R0b1n · Jul 1, 2018

Never going to happen. As long as gender differences exist, gender norms will exist.

Speely · Jul 1, 2018

brainchild said:
I want it to not be a big deal if they choose to do so. Even if they're not trans or drag queens.

This all day. You should not have to fit into a specific thing in order to be yourself.

Obvious · Jul 1, 2018

brainchild said:
It's hard to imagine that we will ever get to a place where most [presently cis-gender] boys and men will feel comfortable doing things like wearing lipstick/make-up and dresses, even in light of [presently cis-gender] girls and women feeling more comfortable wearing buzz cuts and suits.

That's cause lipstick and makeup is dumb. And that's coming from a guy who bought a pair of women's skinny jeans accidentally, and would still wear them (if they had fucking pockets deep enough for my phone).

I would consider wearing skirts if it was socially permissible for me to do so, but why go through the fucking hassle of having to explain to people that you are straight and not trans and you're not wearing it for some weird fetish thing? I don't want to have to deal with people in public over clothes

Twilight Suzuka · Jul 1, 2018

brainchild said:
I want it to not be a big deal if they choose to do so. Even if they're not trans or drag queens.

Your OP and your title are asking two different questions, and you're going to wildly skew your results.

Your title asks when gender will basically vanish from existence. Most people will answer that with "never."

Your OP asks when society could be close to universal acceptance of different gender expression. That could easily happen in 50 years. Things move fast sometimes under the right conditions.

vicisac · Jul 1, 2018

1upsuper said:
You are confusing sex and gender. The functions of sex organs need not dictate social behaviors.

No, I'm not confusing anything. Basically what some "progressive" movements is abstract away the biological realities and let people identify as anything they like.

Which is supremely silly, I can as polite as necessary, but as an example, let's not pretend that a man that identifies as a woman will ever have the biological realities of one.

Officer Big Mac · Jul 1, 2018

I select Thor 2.

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

Twilight Suzuka said:
Your OP and your title are asking two different questions, and you're going to wildly skew your results.

Your title asks when gender will basically vanish from existence. Most people will answer that with "never."

Your OP asks when society could be close to universal acceptance of different gender expression. That could easily happen in 50 years. Things move fast sometimes under the right conditions.

I would hope that people aren't just voting based on the title. It's not very easy to put such a complex subject in a headline, so reading the OP is crucial. That being said, the title referred to gender norms, not gender, and they are not interchangeable concepts, so even going off the title, people shouldn't assume I'm asking when gender will vanish.

Bernd Lauert · Jul 1, 2018

I can imagine that if we go full cyberpunk in a couple of decades, more people will give less of a shit what your body looks like since it will just be a vessel with interchangable, often mechanical, parts. Such things are obviously very hard to predict though and there will be a ton of backlash at first.

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

R0b1n said:
Never going to happen. As long as gender differences exist, gender norms will exist.

You could be right, but not necessarily so. How we choose to respond and adapt as a society around these differences isn't prescribed for all time. It's possible we'll think differently about gender differences in the future.

KillLaCam · Jul 1, 2018

brainchild said:
I want it to not be a big deal if they choose to do so. Even if they're not trans or drag queens.

Yeah they're not gonna completely go away. But this will definitely happen one day

GamerJM · Jul 1, 2018

Never or not for a very long time, but I can foresee them becoming way less important in the next couple hundred years.

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

vicisac said:
No, I'm not confusing anything. Basically what some "progressive" movements is abstract away the biological realities and let people identify as anything they like.

Which is supremely silly, I can as polite as necessary, but as an example, let's not pretend that a man that identifies as a woman will ever have the biological realities of one.

Gender as an abstraction has existed long before 'progressive' movements. You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

vicisac · Jul 1, 2018

brainchild said:
Gender as an abstraction has existed long before 'progressive' movements. You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Gender roles are directly informed by sex, they are not pulled from thin air. Aspiring everyone to act in a sexually ambiguous way is irrational on your part.

Aztechnology · Jul 1, 2018

brainchild said:
I think I need to clarify the OP. Getting rid of gender norms doesn't mean getting rid of gender. Femininity and Masculinity don't have to disappear in order for society to accept that men can be feminine and women can be masculine and that it isn't anything worth raising concern over.

I want it to not be a big deal if they choose to do so. Even if they're not trans or drag queens.

I don't know how I so clearly misread the thread. But yea, I think Gender Norms, as in Men do this, women do that, in the simplest sense, will eventually become a thing of the past. I'm optimistic enough to believe it might take less than a hundred years. That I may see it in my lifetime. I think we're quickly approaching in many important areas that distinction, that behavior is not defined by sex, at least not entirely. But there will be things I think that will take much much longer.

I think I got confused, as I assumed you were including gender pronouns, identifications etc. Going away, which I don't see happening, unless something like I stated before happens. There will always be a identification between A, B ,C etc. Where something is different, it is identified as being different. Does that make sense?

brainchild · Jul 1, 2018

vicisac said:
Gender roles are directly informed by sex, they are not pulled from thin air. Aspiring everyone to act in a sexually ambiguous way is irrational on your part.

The problem with this logic is that the expression of such roles is completely subjective and has no basis in biology. The expression of gender is an invention of the human mind. What it means to be a woman in Zimbabwe is not the same as what it means to be a woman in France, despite the sex being the same in both countries.

Terrell · Jul 1, 2018

Gender norms won't ever die, they'll merely change, sometimes dramatically. Just like they have across the several centuries of human history. What we consider "gender norms" nowadays is only about a century old, if that. They were different before the turn of the last century, both for women and men.

Gender ROLES, on the other hand, haven't changed much over the centuries, but in the last 50 years, they have changed pretty drastically, mostly for the better. So that's a big win against what was once an immovable social construct.

[Poll] When do you foresee gender norms becoming a thing of the past?

When will gender norms be a thing of the past?

50 years from now

100 years from now

500 years from now

1000+ years from now

It will never be a thing of the past

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