The State of the Democrats

DigitalOp · Jul 1, 2018

Originally, I was going to make a thread about how it was time for a new political party.

After some thought, I did realize that the timing of this idea may actually hurt us more than help. The Dems are needed here and as of last week, there has been some serious concerns that have popped up lately.

I figure this thread is more needed at the moment, alot of infighting and Dems need to sit down and hash this out.

Here a couple points of discussion -

1 ) Moderate and Establishment Dems need to sit down and shut up. Finger wagging and tut tuting your electorate at such a polarized time was the most spineless shit we've ever seen from the party.

Prob more spinless than that weak ass fight for DACA. "Civility" died in November 2016. Our opposition are the complete opposite of decorum and civility. You're bringing a knife to a gun fight here. Republicans brought out the Uzis and it's time for us to bring out the AKs (metaphorically speaking)

Either you step the fuck back and shape up, or we will primary that ass. We have absolutely no time to try fighting with one hand right now.

2) Dems seriously need to learn how to fight. Because we're getting our ass beat by children right now. Simply either because their too afraid to fight or they actually don't know how...

The irony is that we talk about "playing dirty" as a response but we don't need Republican tactics. We don't need to lie and decieve. Democrats only need 2 weapons. Truth and Facts. Where Democrats fail is that they refuse to take off the kid gloves and are adamant to keep using a filter. Take off the fucking kid gloves, drop the filter.

Call the Clown a racist and a facist. Call Miller a racist and a facist. Call Milania complicit. Call Ivanka complicit. Call Kushner incompetent. Call SHS a liar and duplicitous.

Again moderate Dems are the posion here. They are more concerned with preserving the feelings of Republicans friends at dinner than speaking the truth.

Why the fuck does David Hogg and John Legend have stronger rhetoric than Dem Leaders? That is absurdity of the highest order.

3 ) Ocasta-Cortez's platform needs to be the baseline Democratic platform for the party. Do I have to explain this? Why do I have to explain this? A rising tide lifts all boats. These key points should be the baseline of ANY country serving it's citizens.

4 ) For the love of sweet baby Jesus in the manger, let the goddamn Centrists and Moderate electorate go! Let them go Dems! They are not votes to be won. It is 2018, almost damn near 2 years into the worst presidency in the modern era....

If you're still a Moderate/Centrist at the moment, you're either:

A Republican who wants to hide from social stigma

Or

You want to voice your opinion on shit but not be involved in process.

Dems, these people don't matter. Leave them in the middle. Move further left. These people thrive under the guise "morality" and indecisiveness. Move further left Dems!

They can either decide to stand with American Progressives, go join the Racists, or pull the fuck away from the process entirely. Stop treating these people like they matter Dems.

5 ) Dems need to reach out and call out to the media.

"The free press is not the enemy of the American people, however you allow Republicans to thrive under false equivalency and a lack of action to call out their lies. We need the press to inform the people of what is happening to this country! We need the press to investigate and report the truths!"

When Dems show up for media circuits, they need the hard receipts on deck. They need to stand firm and call the bullshit.

Let's discuss and hash this shit out.

Deleted member 31817 · Jul 1, 2018

I agree mostly but as much as it sucks you still need moderates and centrists for red states, otherwise you're not gonna get enough electoral votes to be president and you're not gonna have enough people in Congress. Shift the national platform to the left, primary DINOs in safe states but don't be surprised if a DSA candidate loses in a WV state race.

McMahon · Jul 1, 2018

Thank you.

Moderates are the enemy of good. They suck oxygen out of the room to fill their own bloated sense of self-worth and superiority. We see it on this very forum all the time. They suck, plain and simple.

Democrats are a necessity for the time being and I hope we, as progressives, can continue to push them to the left.

Jadentheman · Jul 1, 2018

McMahon said:
Thank you.

Moderates are the enemy of good. They suck oxygen out of the room to fill their own bloated sense of self-worth and superiority. We see it on this very forum all the time. They suck, plain and simple.

Democrats are a necessity for the time being and I hope we, as progressives, can continue to push them to the left.

They truly are they don't care as long as they "get the bag". They cosign anything off this administration and GOP because of the tax cuts

Deleted member 22649 · Jul 1, 2018

Looks like you've given this a lot of thought. I respect that.

I'll add this: We as voters need to be hearing from candidates about the issues they care about and what specifically they will do. I don't know if that can happen via the mainstream media. The pressure on any Democrat is to be part of the conversation that's currently driven 100% by crazy shit the current admin is doing. It's difficult to talk about your platform when the President does cruel shit every single day and then loudly blames you for it. This is something they talk about on Pod Save America all the time— specifically, that the party doesn't know how to deal with this.

What can be done to engage voters in conversation outside of the mainstream media? Direct outreach via traditional means is important, but we need more.

Deleted member 36708 · Jul 1, 2018

Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Deleted member 8561 · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Yes

Deleted member 36708 · Jul 1, 2018

TheLostBigBoss said:
Yes

Who then?

Tbm24 · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Very, Trump is losing his re-election all on his own.

Deleted member 8561 · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Who then?

Literally anyone that comes out of the primary in 2020 will be viable and have the backing of the party, so it's not an issue

ISOM · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Who says that Democrats need some big personality to win 2020? If they do then America is fucked. If after all this people especially the moderates choose Trump then America is fucked beyond belief. A potato in a suit should be able to get the job done honestly.

Ithil · Jul 1, 2018

Bored.

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

You're acting like he's some very popular incumbent. He barely won with all the help in the world against a uniquely hated candidate, and that's before a shitty term as president.

Buzzman · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Eh, still a ways off but Gillibrand and Harris are clearly on the rise.

Volimar · Jul 1, 2018

There are plenty of moderates and centrists whose politics just lay in that part of the spectrum. Dismissing them because they're not as left as the rest of us just ensures we never win the presidency again. We can't pretend that most democrats are as progressive as we are. For that same reason, Ocasta-Cortez's full platform probably wouldn't fly nationally. The jobs guarantee itself would look to most people like a pie in the sky promise. But in safe democrat strongholds? It absolutely should be the roadmap going forward.

Holundrian · Jul 1, 2018

I hope you're right but the power of truth and facts is just something I've been doubting more and more over the last few years.
It seems to me so many people really don't care at all about these things and just want to be fed a narrative they can feel comfortable partaking in.
Not that it counts for much but anecdotally it seems especially in arguments bringing on the facts generally has the outcome of people digging themselves more into their stupid positions.

TheGhost · Jul 1, 2018

I always feel like these things are preaching to the choir here. Most agree (95% of the forum) with what you're saying but the reality is the chance of convincing people that don't talk politics daily to even agree with a quarter of what you said would be an extremely tough sell. Especially moderates, Yeah they are going to care about feelings of guests and family because that's real....they see them all the time and a part of their lives. Sadly the well being of people they don't know and not in their lives is the bottom of the priority list, because those people do not impact whatever struggles they are already going through.

Not trying to be a downer, but that's just how human nature is.

Ocasta's stance as a "socialist" sounds like a great way to lose in 2020. It's like you're just asking for a nightmare scenario. Do that once you get a democratic president in office. You can have a possible 8 years to naturally grow it over time so by 2028 an actual legitimate third party could be present.

All I see in the post is anger and the possibility to push away people that would have voted Democrat and been on their way.

Trump didn't get voted in because he is smart or even believable, it was the country saying fuck Hillary and refusing to vote for her.

CryptoBoy · Jul 1, 2018

Sometimes as a Brit i forget how fucked the American Political Party system works .

Sexy Fish · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Yes, but what do you define as 'what it takes'?

Gillibrand and Harris are probably the two making the most noise at this point.

I'd say Biden, Sanders, or Warren would also be fine, but I'd rather we have a 'younger' face of the party.

Prophaniti · Jul 1, 2018

Alienate moderates. Purity test all dems. Fantastic idea. I'm glad we've learned nothing.

Mindwipe · Jul 1, 2018

OP has laid out a great plan for the Republicans winning elections.

Anger might make you feel better, but it unambiguously does not in Democrats elections and it never will.

DigitalOp · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Put it this way,

The media railed on Hillary over a false equivalency just to seem impartial throughout the whole campaign, Republican closed a shitton of polling stations in strategic areas, Facebook decided Russian Rubles was more important than not posting fake news, AND Comey put the cherry on top deciding to royally fuck with the election 10 days out...

After all that Trump just barely beat Hillary with an electoral college win.

I think we'll be fine in 2020.

FreezePeach · Jul 1, 2018

Prophaniti said:
Alienate moderates. Purity test all dems. Fantastic idea. I'm glad we've learned nothing.

All i know is these geniuses better vote if they dont get their pristine golden god again. After 2016, its inexcusable.

Lurkyseas · Jul 1, 2018

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Trump can be easily beatable. The only reason why he won was because Hillary Clinton was a weaker candidate. And he didn't exactly win by a landslide.

One thing is for certain: It's going to be hell for Trump once he's out of office. If he thinks that prison is bad; Just you wait. He'll never be able to peacefully walk out there on the streets ever again. He'll be scrutinized & scolded everywhere (especially in Manhattan).

legacyzero · Jul 1, 2018

This country will never move left when you have the current leadership that it has. Pelosi, Schumer, etc. they're weak, and driving the party into the ground. Also, the party supports nearly zero of the Ocasio-Cortez baseline. They don't fund or advertise the candidates, and they'd rather a Republican win, than support the real progressive. There's no love for AOC from the Dem leadership, both before and after, and it's a goddamn shameful thing. And it's become clear to me, that it's not that the Democrats dont know how to harness this new energy in the likes of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. It's that they don't want to. It doesn't suit them or their donors.

Also, I see a bunch of crying about Moderates in the party. YALL WANTED HILLARY MODERATE CLINTON in the White House. Don't get me wrong, I voted for her responsibly. But it's seriously stupid that we have to vote for a candidate simply to keep the window from drifting further right.

Look, I know there's a divide in the Democratic voter base with the Hillary and Bernie people. And that can heal. But the cancer in the party is the leadership. The weak-willed, corrupt, centrist, idiots. None of this will change until they're gone. We will not move left until they're gone. The Hillary and Bernie wings will hash shit out in due time. The two groups agree on the goal. They just don't agree on the journey and some of the particulars. It'll be fixed before 2020. It's well on its way IMO. I'm seeing more unity and agreement in the discourse than before, outside of some of the #BernieorBust and #StillWithHer dumbfucks on twitter.

But unless we go after the leadership and demand they do better or STEP THE FUCK OUT, we ain't goin anywhere children. Buckle up and ride the Red America Trump Train for another 4 years. Facts.

And while I appreciate all the energy we're putting into making fascist scum feel uncomfortable at their public dinners, we need to do that for the Dem leadership. Pelosi, Schumer, (and yes, Bernie Sanders), on making them do better.no more fucking "Civility". Nazis get punched in the mouth, and fascist liars get fucking tossed. But demand that unless they start fighting for us and showing some goddamn strength, they get shown the goddamn door.

Great OP

Tron1 said:
Not a political guy at all. With that being said they are fucked. I don't see anyone that has what it takes to challenge trump in 2020. Am I naive to think that?

Not at all. Because there isn't. Anyone in this thread telling you otherwise hasn't taken their 2016 goggles off yet. The "hopefuls" are underwhelming at best. Some of which have made moves to the left specifically because they're a hopeful. Hat should raise your eyebrows immediately. And there's not enough energy in all of them combined to power a goddamn flashlight

Border · Jul 1, 2018

"Let's abandon and shame those whose viewpoint isn't as progressive as mine" seems like a recipe for failure.

SDBurton · Jul 1, 2018

Prophaniti said:
Alienate moderates. Purity test all dems. Fantastic idea. I'm glad we've learned nothing.

As I said before, I'm grateful that at least this time I can see the loss coming.

Deleted member 8257 · Jul 1, 2018

Lurkyseas said:
Trump can be easily beatable. The only reason why he won was because Hillary Clinton was a weaker candidate. And he didn't exactly win by a landslide.

Dont forget Russia helped out comrade Don. Also Hillary's numbers jumped off cliff as soon as Comey said they found emails on Weiner laptop.

DigitalOp · Jul 1, 2018

I see alot of people tut tuting my moderate points but nobody actually challenging the notion that I said:

They are merely Republicans who don't want the name because they know Republicans are tainted.

Or

They wanna swing their moral dicks about being above "party affiliations"

I'll just assume I'm correct with that observation.

Again... If you still have political reservations against Democrats at this time, youre basically a fucking Republican. Moderates really don't exist in this climate.

The only apprehension you should have torwards Democrats at this moment is that theyre weak as fuck. But that has nothing to do with their policies.

Lurkyseas · Jul 1, 2018

RustyNails said:
Dont forget Russia helped out comrade Don. Also Hillary's numbers jumped off cliff as soon as Comey said they found emails on Weiner laptop.

Though Trump wanted to lose so that he can start rambling through the media about how terrible Hillary Clinton is & among other shit to try to get everyone on his side. Thankfully, it didn't work.

Deleted member 176 · Jul 1, 2018

McMahon said:
Thank you.

Moderates are the enemy of good. They suck oxygen out of the room to fill their own bloated sense of self-worth and superiority. We see it on this very forum all the time. They suck, plain and simple.

Democrats are a necessity for the time being and I hope we, as progressives, can continue to push them to the left.

legacyzero · Jul 1, 2018

Prophaniti said:
Alienate moderates. Purity test all dems. Fantastic idea. I'm glad we've learned nothing.

All this crying about purity tests. It always makes me giggle. And it's always the ones that won't purity test the people they support, but will DAMN sure test the purity of the ones they don't.

Don't want a purity test? Be fucking pure. Hold your elected officials to a standard, or stop pretending you care so much about the issues

Deleted member 36708 · Jul 1, 2018

Tbm24 said:
Very, Trump is losing his re-election all on his own.

TheLostBigBoss said:
Literally anyone that comes out of the primary in 2020 will be viable and have the backing of the party, so it's not an issue

ISOM said:
Who says that Democrats need some big personality to win 2020? If they do then America is fucked. If after all this people especially the moderates choose Trump then America is fucked beyond belief. A potato in a suit should be able to get the job done honestly.

Ithil said:
Bored.

You're acting like he's some very popular incumbent. He barely won with all the help in the world against a uniquely hated candidate, and that's before a shitty term as president.

Buzzman said:
Eh, still a ways off but Gillibrand and Harris are clearly on the rise.

Sexy Fish said:
Yes, but what do you define as 'what it takes'?

Gillibrand and Harris are probably the two making the most noise at this point.

I'd say Biden, Sanders, or Warren would also be fine, but I'd rather we have a 'younger' face of the party.

DigitalOp said:
Put it this way,

The media railed on Hillary over a false equivalency just to seem impartial throughout the whole campaign, Republican closed a shitton of polling stations in strategic areas, Facebook decided Russian Rubles was more important than not posting fake news, AND Comey put the cherry on top deciding to royally fuck with the election 10 days out...

After all that Trump just barely beat Hillary with an electoral college win.

I think we'll be fine in 2020.

Lurkyseas said:
Trump can be easily beatable. The only reason why he won was because Hillary Clinton was a weaker candidate. And he didn't exactly win by a landslide.

One thing is for certain: It's going to be hell for Trump once he's out of office. If he thinks that prison is bad; Just you wait. He'll never be able to peacefully walk out there on the streets ever again. He'll be scrutinized & scolded everywhere (especially in Manhattan).

I hope you guys are right. I've just never seen anything like this... where a guy can do everything wrong and immoral and still get votes. The guy bragged about being able to shoot someone dead in the streets and not lose his supporters. We will see I guess.

Papaya · Jul 1, 2018

Honestly, Chuck and Nancy, and their ilk, are a large problem. They have changed the party to one that depends far too much on big money donations to win elections. A lot of the grassroots support has disappeared, and it has put the party in a bad spot. Destroying Unions is a huge factor with what wrong with everything in the US, including the Dems.

Volimar · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
I see alot of people tut tuting my moderate points but nobody actually challenging the notion that I said:

They are merely Republicans who don't want the name because they know Republicans are tainted.

Or

They wanna swing their moral dicks about being above "party affiliations"

I'll just assume I'm correct with that observation.

I think most people didn't bother challenging that because it seemed like you were just lashing out and because what you said doesn't make sense. People are moderates because that is where their beliefs lie. You can't just erase that they have their views because they're not the same ones we have. That's just silly and unrealistic.

Alexandros · Jul 1, 2018

I think that the people running the Democratic Party aren't complete idiots. If they are trying to bring in votes from moderates it probably means that those votes are important in order to win under the current electoral system. Also, I'm not at all convinced that moving the party line further to the left is such a good idea considering that socialism has been demonized in the US.

As for the abandonment of civility, it might please the people that are very angry but I really don't think that Democrats should be trying to out-asshole Trump. That's not possible. I'm sure Trump himself would love an opponent who is aggressive because it will allow him to turn the election into a personality fight and push actual issues to the side.

yogurt · Jul 1, 2018

Psychoward said:
I agree mostly but as much as it sucks you still need moderates and centrists for red states, otherwise you're not gonna get enough electoral votes to be president and you're not gonna have enough people in Congress. Shift the national platform to the left, primary DINOs in safe states but don't be surprised if a DSA candidate loses in a WV state race.

Yep. There are a lot of folks here who still don't seem to understand that most of the country isn't as liberal as ERA. Not even close. I grew up in the south. What works in California and New York does not work in the South / Midwest outside of a few metro areas.

It would be a different story if our electoral system didn't so heavily favor land over population, but for now rural areas are overrepresented.

DigitalOp · Jul 1, 2018

FreezePeach said:
All i know is these geniuses better vote if they dont get their pristine golden god again. After 2016, its inexcusable.

I wasn't in love with Hillary, she was the only choice.

My post is geared towards sensible people, not pretest vote morons.

Border said:
"Let's abandon and shame those whose viewpoint isn't as progressive as mine" seems like a recipe for failure.

SDBurton said:
As I said before, I'm grateful that at least this time I can see the loss coming.

I don't understand?

So coddle and accept regressive policies?
When the current administration is already has us drowning in regressive policy?

And y'all are whining about me wanting to get progressives in office?

I'm trying to move the damn country forward. You can't do that if you're catering to people who wanna hold it back.

Nothing to do with "purity tests" and more about fucking common sense.

ERA, stop the buzzwords. Jesus Christ.

bangai-o · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Democrats only need 2 weapons. Truth and Facts.

I think it has been pretty well established by now that a large portion of this country does not care about those.

Buzzman · Jul 1, 2018

This argument that "the Democrats would never win another election".
Remember the Tea Party? And how they several times unseated establishment republicans, and we laughed because we thought they were fracturing the conservative base?

Now they've completely taken over the GOP AND the country.

AuthenticM · Jul 1, 2018

Good OP, TC.

Tfritz · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Democrats only need 2 weapons. Truth and Facts.

I feel like I've identified a core issue with the whole premise of your argument my friend.

whytemyke · Jul 1, 2018

If you want to alienate the more centrist Democrats, you can basically kiss goodbye to having Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania or Florida vote for you in the Presidential election. And, honestly, good luck winning the White House without any of those states.

Kthulhu · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Dems seriously need to learn how to fight. Because we're getting our ass beat by children right now. Simply either because their too afraid to fight or they actually don't know how...

Are you referring to elections? Because if you are this is completely untrue, as Democrats have been winning in a bunch of elections since Trump took office.

Also, reaching out to swing voters is somewhat necessary. I think going after moderate Republicans is dumb idea and should never be attempted again, but the focus should be on getting your base to show up.

I don't think Dems getting involved with Trump's childish antics is a good strategy, we are better off using those issues to pivot the media's attention to the issues Dems are running on.

Dyle · Jul 1, 2018

Moderates suck and are holding the party back from achieving great things, but they are absolutely essential for the party to do anything of great size and significance given how much gerrymandering has disenfranchised Democratic voters. They are a necessary evil as part of coping with a fundamentally broken system of representative democracy and we will never be able to make significant progress towards a more equitable system of government without reluctantly embracing them

That being said, party leaders should not feel so beholden to moderates, who make up a minority of Democrats' constituents, and should leave most of the moderate pandering to the moderates' representatives who can better speak to their districts' interests

digit_zero · Jul 1, 2018

We have primaries to define the message Democrats want to run on. Be it a centrist message or a progressive one, what is more important that we don't have in fighting and people withholding their votes because they lost a primary.

Volimar · Jul 1, 2018

Alexandros said:
I think that the people running the Democratic Party aren't complete idiots. If they are trying to bring in votes from moderates it probably means that those votes are important in order to win under the current electoral system. Also, I'm not at all convinced that moving the party line further to the left is such a good idea considering that socialism has been demonized in the US.

As for the abandonment of civility, it might please the people that are very angry but I really don't think that Democrats should be trying to out-asshole Trump. That's not possible. I'm sure Trump himself would love an opponent who is aggressive because it will allow him to turn the election into a personality fight and push actual issues to the side.

There's method to the madness. The fight for the soul of the party is which direction do we go? Do we try to appeal to moderates who show up to vote or do we try to appeal to young progressives who show time and again that they're content to sit on their asses and not vote. You can try to do both, but it's a tightrope of risking to alienate both. If people would just fall in line like republicans do when it comes to the general election then I think the leadership would be more willing to try. The riskier strategy, the one that people here often push for, is to embrace the young progressive candidates and hope that they can motivate the progressive base to come out and vote. Not so easy when the slightest thing can turn off voters.

Kthulhu · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
I see alot of people tut tuting my moderate points but nobody actually challenging the notion that I said:

They are merely Republicans who don't want the name because they know Republicans are tainted.

This is not true though. Swing voters absolutely do exist and are essential in close races.

Edit: there are many people who voted for Obama in 08 and voted for Trump in 2016, and there are people who voted for Obama in 2012 who didn't vote at all in 2016.

Megalosaro · Jul 1, 2018

You're a stupid mother fucker if you think "letting go" of centralist and moderates is the way to go. That is a surefire way to never win another election ever again.

The demonization of them on this forum is so myopic it's ridiculous. I can see demonizing Republicans. But most moderates and centralist are definitely not the enemy.

legacyzero · Jul 1, 2018

Alexandros said:
I think that the people running the Democratic Party aren't complete idiots. If they are trying to bring in votes from moderates it probably means that those votes are important in order to win under the current electoral system. Also, I'm not at all convinced that moving the party line further to the left is such a good idea considering that socialism has been demonized in the US.

As for the abandonment of civility, it might please the people that are very angry but I really don't think that Democrats should be trying to out-asshole Trump. That's not possible. I'm sure Trump himself would love an opponent who is aggressive because it will allow him to turn the election into a personality fight and push actual issues to the side.

Are you Nancy Pelosi's Era account? :P

Brinksman · Jul 1, 2018

I am not suggesting my society is ideal in the least, but something which always throws things into perspective for me is that your Democrats are currently about on par with the most right wing political parties to be found in my country, ones which our populists despise. In a corrective reality you would actually be vilifying the Democrats and stanning for another, more progressive hypothetical party instead, but you have your cancerous Republicans who manage to shift the entire narrative to a retrograde scenario, transforming principles such as fundamental human rights into hotly debated topics.

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