Just Write: Why We Can't Agree About The Last Jedi (Or Art in General)

Rendering... · Jul 1, 2018

Kurdel said:
I don't come to Star Wars for any of this.

People can rationalize it ans say what they want, this was a terrible direction for the second movie in a trilogy.

My position on that is, what you come to Star Wars for is maybe the deciding factor in whether you enjoy the movie, but it says nothing much about how fitting or worthy TLJ is as part of the Star Wars canon.

Granted, I don't really come to Star Wars for insight about the human condition and heroes either, but I'll sure as hell take it when it's done so well.

It helps that I found TLJ entertaining and think its art direction is gorgeous.

Cipher Peon said:
I also heavily disagree with this....in a way.
I thought the series' own moral simplifications and idea of mythical heroism was so inherently flawed that it didn't need anyone to point them out.

That The Last Jedi stopped the film to explain the obvious was infuriating. But I guess it was an inevitability? I just don't think it's daring at all.

I can see what you're saying from a narrative POV. But it's certainly daring in the context of Star Wars' place in pop culture. You'd expect a safe, risk-averse, by-the-numbers movie. God knows it would have pulled in more cash. Getting something different from this cultural juggernaut is a refreshing surprise.

Zukuu · Jul 1, 2018

You don't even need to look at what / how the film portrays anything, it fails on the very basic level of being a sequel. It's one of the worst direct sequels in a trilogy I can think of, because it just resets everything back to square one. It doesn't follow up the first entry, it simply destroys it retrospectively - making both movies almost pointless.

The drastic separation from everything established, would have worked if it was the first entry to the trilogy, but as the middle one it just feels forced and weird.

BigWinnie1 · Jul 1, 2018

Lukes Arc is okay but Everything outside of Luke-Kylo-Rey arc is terrible and doesn't click well at all.

Your Cousin Vinny · Jul 1, 2018

I don't think I understand people saying, "Star Wars had to change from its 'hero's journey' theme to something else, it just had to!"

Halo doesn't have to change from Master Chief whooping space-ass to leaning on weird geopolitics and stuff to "mature". It has to stop sucking as a game franchise.

Rendering... · Jul 1, 2018

Zukuu said:
You don't even need to look at what / how the film portrays anything, it fails on the very basic level of being a sequel. It's one of the worst direct sequels in a trilogy I can think of, because it just resets everything back to square one. It doesn't follow up the first entry, it simply destroys it retrospectively - making both movies almost pointless.

The drastic separation from everything established, would have worked if it was the first entry to the trilogy, but as the middle one it just feels forced and weird.

It didn't fail and it's not poorly directed. You got answers you didn't want or expect, that's all.

Epcott · Jul 1, 2018

Cheebo said:
What embarrassing jokes? Are you sure you aren't talking about this?

TLJ is filled with odd attempts at humor and awkward moments masquerading as comedy that just don't work...

As far as this film being held in same regards as the films that came before, who's to say. Personally, I'll always remember this as the 3 day long, low-speed chase film... and it has nothing to do with Luke's portrayal.

saenima · Jul 1, 2018

Actual valuable critique of movies that happen to be part of some fandom or other is nearly impossible. Most fanboys are absolutely insufferable whether they approve of something or not. Add the usual outrage from the MRA brigade and there's no space left for genuine conversation.

Deleted member 7051 · Jul 1, 2018

ASleepingMonkey said:
I totally think this is true. I don't know if that guy was being sarcastic to be a dick or something but lots of people I know who aren't huge on Star Wars loved TLJ for this reason.

That's because of a lack of attachment, I think. Star Wars fans generally look at Luke Skywalker the way comic book fans look at Superman, viewing him as an inspirational figure that teaches us to never give up and never take the easy route.

Remember how angry comic book fans were when Superman wrecked half of Metropolis to beat Zod or when Batman went crazy because "Martha"? It's the same thing with Luke in The Last Jedi. These are enormous pop culture icons and in the span of one movie they took Luke Skywalker, one of the most prolific sci fi characters of all time, and deconstructed his legacy and then killed him.

...and we're s'posed to be okay with that, to praise that, because he gets a single badass moment before he died.

Honestly it's probably just a miracle that the Marvel movies respect their comic book characters enough to be faithful to who they are and who they have been for decades rather than deconstructing them because it's controversial and will keep people arguing about it for years.

Objektivity · Jul 1, 2018

Bragg said:
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.

So very true, many of these of the overzealous fans just want to defend the franchise no matter what. Even if it means flip flopping like this.

Deleted member 5666 · Jul 1, 2018

Objektivity said:
So very true, many of these of the overzealous fans just want to defend the franchise no matter what. Even if it means flip flopping like this.

People say this without actually seeing what those who love TLJ felt about TFA. A lot of the hardcore SW fans I know who loved TLJ were kind of disappointed by how safe TFA was.

Objektivity · Jul 1, 2018

Cheebo said:
People say this without actually seeing what those who love TLJ felt about TFA. A lot of the hardcore SW fans I know who loved TLJ were kind of disappointed by how safe TFA was.

On the old forum I saw almost universal defense of TFA anyone who called it a rehash was chased out of town. You guys can't have it both ways.

Cipher Peon · Jul 1, 2018

Rendering... said:
I can see what you're saying from a narrative POV. But it's certainly daring in the context of Star Wars' place in pop culture. You'd expect a safe, risk-averse, by-the-numbers movie. God knows it would have pulled in more cash. Getting something different from this cultural juggernaut is a refreshing surprise.

I wish I could agree. I expected a safe, risk averse, by the numbers movie and that's largely what I thought of TLJ. I can see why some feel that it isn't, but I just can't agree at all.

As for the inevitable "TFA was even more safe!", I agree wholeheartedly! It was extraordinarily safe and that is by far my biggest criticism of it. But I also thought TLJ was boring and obnoxious, neither of which I would describe TFA as (at its worst TFA was too whimsical).

Deleted member 5666 · Jul 1, 2018

Objektivity said:
On the old forum I saw almost universal defense of TFA anyone who called it a rehash was chased out of town. You guys can't have it both ways.

Assuming people who love TLJ also universally believe TFA wasn't somewhat safe is just not correct. This does not match at all with many people I have seen who love TLJ.

Waffles · Jul 1, 2018

Objektivity said:
So very true, many of these of the overzealous fans just want to defend the franchise no matter what. Even if it means flip flopping like this.

One can both enjoy The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi while also believing that the former made some questionable and safe decisions for the trilogy.

Deleted member 5666 · Jul 1, 2018

Waffles said:
One can both enjoy The Force Awakens while also believing that it made some questionable and safe decisions for the trilogy.

Yep! You can enjoy TFA and believe it played it bit too safe and enjoy TLJ and praise the fact it didn't play it safe.

Objektivity · Jul 1, 2018

The narrative went from "It had to be safe!" to "It had to subvert your fan boy expectations!" from one film to the next because the goal of the most hardcore fans is defend the franchise at all costs.

Mona · Jul 1, 2018

Are there seriously people who wanted to see Luke go hulk mode? That seems like the dumbest shit

greatgeek · Jul 1, 2018

Bragg said:
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.

These aren't incompatible statements. What the franchise needed in 2015 isn't necessarily what it needed in 2017. (I thought at the time that TFA just needed to be good to rejuvenate the franchise, but I understood why many thought it needed to be familiar/safe.)

Deleted member 401 · Jul 1, 2018

Waffles said:
One can both enjoy The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi while also believing that the former made some questionable and safe decisions for the trilogy.

Exactly. I personally think both Force Awakens and Last Jedi are necessary for how the franchise grows under Disney in their own ways. The Force Awakens affirms that the new leadership understands what makes Star Wars work.

The Last Jedi takes the next step of trying to forge a new identity for the sequel trilogy era of the timeline and onward. If new Star Wars films are to remain relevant to the general movie-going public, they can't keep repeating the same beats forever.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Bragg said:
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.

I'm with you. If they wanted a clean break from the past so much, then I would have preferred they just did it with episode VII by setting it after all of the original heroes had died off.

I have trouble understanding why we needed a movie that hits us over the head with the subverting expectations hammer and deconstructs our heroes, but I'm not a Serious Critic, I suppose.

Waffles · Jul 1, 2018

Objektivity said:
The narrative went from "It had to be safe!" to "It had to subvert your fan boy expectations!" from one film to the next because the goal of the most hardcore fans is defend the franchise at all costs.

That was basically the 'narrative' right after TFA was released. It was either "TFA needed to be safe to get people back on board. The next one they will take risks" or "TFA was too safe/was a rehash. The next one better take some risks."

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Rendering... said:
Sure but in this case Luke's arc is made extra powerful by the way things could have gone. I never would have thought I'd see a mainstream Star Wars film take an iconoclastic stance and critique not only the series' own moral simplifications but the flaws ingrained in the whole idea of mythical heroes--with nothing less than the Luke Skywalker serving as an object lesson for the virtues of failure.

I find it puzzling that this is what anyone wants from Star Wars. Does everything need to be a deeply cynical critique of itself to be considered Art these days? Is it not allowed to be genuine even at the risk of being simple?

Vincent Alexander · Jul 1, 2018

Hero_of_the_Day said:
I love seeing the people who like this movie explain why I must not like it.

I was fine with Luke not having a big action scene (though I could have done without his CGI Matrix slide)

Rey being a nobody was the right fucking call

I didn't need a backstory for Snoke

I still thought the movie sucked. No head-cannon required.

This.

N7_Angel · Jul 1, 2018

Has magic powers said:
If it wasnt Star Wars this level of analysis and rationalizing around a bad movie wouldnt be happening

A good metaphor for it is BBB8 riding that corpse of an AT-ST: it would be funny if he wasnt hurting people, and even then it wouldnt be funny

Definitely. Any movies can be good after over reaching/analyzing them, TLJ is a mediocre movie and a shit SW one. I'm sure some people will love it and that's fine but I can't seriously think that every SW fans can go out the theater and thought it was good, same for general audience

Greg NYC3 · Jul 1, 2018

This film being this controversial more than a half year after release is kind of a testament to its cultural impact.

I mentioned this in the original OT thread but my brother and I pre-bought two sets of tickets because we could only get into the 3D screening on opening weekend and wanted to see the film in it's normal format later. Had it not been for the fact that I had already committed to seeing TLJ again I probably would have been part of the hate train on this movie, I absolutely hated it on first viewing. But somehow going to see it again without the burden of my expectations for what Star Wars was supposed to be made me really enjoy the second viewing. I understand the problems people have with it but I ended up appreciating the primary theme of the movie which is dealing with and learning from failure. That's really not the kind of theme that you can expect sci-fi fans in general to enjoy though.

Waffles · Jul 1, 2018

N7_Angel said:
Definitely. Any movies can be good after over reaching/analyzing them, TLJ is a mediocre movie and a shit SW one. I'm sure some people will love it and that's fine but I can't seriously think that every SW fans can go out the theater and thought it was good, same for general audience

Why can't it just be that some people think it's a good movie and some think it's a bad movie? Rather than saying that if you think it's good, you're rationalizing/over reaching and if you think it's bad, you're a butthurt fanboy?

Gunslinger · Jul 1, 2018

TLJ destroyed SW fanbase. And while Disney was trying to cater to new generation of children to market toys and such they failed badly. Just Google how well SW merch is doing lol. I guarantee if Disney can go back on time and scrap TLJ to make it differently they would imo. I think we will see a big re structure of Lucas films. Firing Kathleen Kennedy was the first step imo. And cancelling the anthology pictures.

HardTimesFamilyPride · Jul 1, 2018

Excited to jump into this essay and conversation asap! Rewatched TLJ last night expecting my opinion to change from awe at its themes to annoyance at its flaws yet I still enjoyed it quite a bit. It's very much a deconstruction of the "myth" of Star Wars and I appreciate that.

I'm also a lapsed SW fanboy so I love that a mainline SW movie is trolling people who take this shit too seriously.

Crossing Eden · Jul 1, 2018

Bragg said:
"This is what the franchise needed..." is so dumb.

It was said about TFA. "It needed to be a safe retread of familiar Star Wars to get fans back after the prequels!"

Now a lot of those same people are saying it about TLJ. "It needed to break from all the baggage of the OT to be relevant again!"

So dumb.

It's almost like the ST trilogy itself is an explicit commentary on the SW franchise and how it fits into modern cinema.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Why do people like to see established franchises "deconstruct" themselves? Is there pleasure derived from seeing the 8th movie in a movie series take a look back at its history and more or less say "Yeah, all that was a bit shit, though, wasn't it?"

I can understand enjoying a critic do a brutal takedown of something you don't really like that much, but why would you want that from the thing itself?

Crossing Eden said:
It's almost like the trilogy itself is an explicit commentary on the SW franchise and how it fits into modern cinema.

Why is that seen as a good thing? I'm really quite curious about that. It's as if self commentary and cynical self deconstruction is seen in and of itself as a good thing.

Crossing Eden · Jul 1, 2018

Zefah said:
Why is that seen as a good thing?

Because self reflection is the key to moving forward as to not repeat the same mistakes. TLJ has very explicit prequel references, much more so than TFA, which is a very blatant celebration of WHY SW is good. TLJ deconstructs but also reassures that the themes of the franchise are absolutely on point because of how these characters and messages resonate so well with the intended audience.

Unfortunately people miss that due to the rise in stuff like the highlighted:

YT theory culture can be brazenly stupid.

Zukuu said:
You don't even need to look at what / how the film portrays anything, it fails on the very basic level of being a sequel. It's one of the worst direct sequels in a trilogy I can think of, because it just resets everything back to square one.

Pay attention to the films next time:

SELIG said:
Resistance is packing up trying to get away from their base on D'Qar. Direct continuation from TFA where, if you don't recall, Starkiller base was charging up to fire on the Resistance base. FO knew where they were. FO forces were not concentrated at Starkiller base, and it's destruction did not destroy the FO ability to swiftly enter into the galaxy conquering mode.

Finn wakes up from coma, shouting REY, first thing he asks anyone he recognizes, 'Where's Rey?' Direct continuation of his attitude and mission from TFA. If you don't recall, he told Han he specifically came to Starkiller to get Rey.

Luke and Rey on Ach-To, don't know how you can miss the direct continuation there.

Snoke and Kylo. end of TFA, Snoke orders Hux to bring Kylo to him so he can complete his training. Direct continuation, where Snoke berates Kylo for his failure to take out Rey. I personally assume that this convo could itself be an aspect of his training, though it isn't necessarily that, could just be what it appears to be, a dressing down for failure. Training to come later.

That all work? How does TLJ disregard things set up in TFA?

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
Because self reflection is the key to moving forward as to not repeat the same mistakes. TLJ has very explicit prequel references, much more so than TFA, which is a very blatant celebration of WHY SW is good. TLJ deconstructs but also reassures that the themes of the franchise are absolutely on point because of how these characters resonate so well with the audience.

How about the creators do that self reflection (bit odd to say that, considering the creative forces are different than the previous entries in the franchise) off screen and come at us with an original trilogy that does not repeat whatever mistakes you're mentioning? Do we really need a trilogy of movies that reflects on what makes Star Wars good, what makes it bad, and (I assume for the third movie) what Star Wars can be?

Crossing Eden · Jul 1, 2018

Zefah said:
Do we really need a trilogy of movies that reflects on what makes Star Wars good, what makes it bad, and (I assume for the third movie) what Star Wars can be?

If the fandom's reaction is anything to go by as they pointlessly discuss power levels and whether or not Rey is too OP, YES.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
If the fandom's reaction is anything to go by as they pointlessly discuss power levels and whether or not Rey is too OP, YES.

So these trilogies are being made to dictate to crazed fans how they should behave? That's the intended audience? That's what they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do?

Deleted member 22422 · Jul 1, 2018

Hero_of_the_Day said:
I love seeing the people who like this movie explain why I must not like it.

I was fine with Luke not having a big action scene (though I could have done without his CGI Matrix slide)

Rey being a nobody was the right fucking call

I didn't need a backstory for Snoke

I still thought the movie sucked. No head-cannon required.

Bravo! Well said.

ZeoVGM · Jul 1, 2018

Dunno.

It's the best in the franchise though.

Crossing Eden · Jul 1, 2018

Zefah said:
So these trilogies are being made to dictate to crazed fans how they should behave? That's the intended audience? That's what they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do?

No, this specific trilogy is being made by people who are huge fans of SW and have something to say about the franchise as they reintroduce it to modern cinema after a decade of bad films that made a poor commentary on politics. Do you not realize how ridiculous it would be to bring SW back without acknowledging it's place in cinema? I'm curious what messages you think SW should have. Because that's what it comes down to.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
No, this specific trilogy is being made by people who are huge fans of SW and have something to say about the franchise as they reintroduce it to modern cinema after a decade of bad films that made a poor commentary on politics.

I'd say that commentary may not have been so poor given the current state of things in the world, although the movies themselves were not something I would like to watch again.

But I think your other point is exactly why these films don't really sit so well with a lot of people who enjoyed the originals. It's a new crew running the show, who basically took a well established franchise and decided to shit on its legacy and basically chastise anyone who may have enjoyed the previous films despite their very obvious flaws that really didn't need pointing out. What's the impetus for this? Why would you spend billions on an IP just to deconstruct the thing and make it something different? The obvious business answer is to use the name and legacy to make a shit load of money, but if the first thing you're going to do is to try to redefine that legacy, then what's the point? Seems like it would have been a lot smarter to spend those resources on a completely new space fantasy that gets things right (whatever that means) from the beginning.

Yung Kyubii · Jul 1, 2018

Objektivity said:
The narrative went from "It had to be safe!" to "It had to subvert your fan boy expectations!" from one film to the next because the goal of the most hardcore fans is defend the franchise at all costs.

For the third movie their goal should be to make an indefensible movie lmao.

MisterHero · Jul 1, 2018

Cheebo said:
How is that possible? Angry fanboys often say they wanted badass hero Luke. I would have hated that, turning Luke into Goku would be so damn boring.

The angry fanboy wishlist for TLJ sounds like boring shonen anime to me.

Before TFA and TLJ, there were 3 whole movies to give everyone what they wanted. THREE.

It is bad writing if they can't use three movies to give everyone something. Luke can be somber in one movie. He can be heroic without becoming Goku. He can do all those things without overshadowing Rey or the other new characters.

Edit: removed because this thread isn't about just Rey

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
Do you not realize how ridiculous it would be to bring SW back without acknowledging it's place in cinema?

I actually don't, no. What does this mean in concrete terms and how was it acknowledged in the current films?

Crossing Eden · Jul 1, 2018

Zefah said:
I'd say that commentary may not have been so poor given the current state of things in the world, although the movies themselves were not something I would like to watch again.

It was absolutely poor at the time and it hasn't aged well at all.

Zefah said:
But I think your other point is exactly why these films don't really sit so well with a lot of people who enjoyed the originals. It's a new crew running the show that basically took a well established franchise and decided to shit on its legacy

They didn't shit on it's legacy in any sense of the word. There's critique but at the same time there's WAY more explicit celebration of the franchise itself. Take for instance a character like Kylo Ren, who can't compare at all to the legacy of Darth Vader, and that's the point like this is what they showed after TFA released as to remind everybody who they're comparing Kylo Ren to:

TLJ ends once again, on being a celebration of SW by having the kids talk about how badass Luke is. It sounds like you feel personally attacked by the idea of critique in the first place and thus ignore how much the film's creators explicitly love SW and put every bit of that in the work itself. Starting with Rey, the main character of this trilogy, the self insert for the audience, who's simultaneously someone unaware of the exact specifics of events but also LITERALLY a SW fangirl, representing both newcomers and older viewers.

Zefah said:
actually don't, no. What does this mean in concrete terms and how was it acknowledged in the current films?

Read above.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 1, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
It sounds like you feel personally attacked by the idea of critique in the first place and thus ignore how much the film's creators explicitly love SW.

I don't need you taking things in this direction, so just let me know if this is how you behave so I can stop replying to you.

I will say, though, that I have littler appreciation for film taking time to cynically critique themselves. I would much rather they just create an interesting movie that avoids any perceived mistakes of past films rather than explicitly raising those things and knocking them down as some kind of masturbatory example of self awareness.

Crossing Eden said:
Read above.

I did. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. To avoid confusion, your writing it out would be appreciated.

Crossing Eden · Jul 1, 2018

Zefah said:
I don't need you taking things in this direction, so just let me know if this is how you behave so I can stop replying to you.

I will say, though, that I have littler appreciation for film taking time to cynically critique themselves. I would much rather they just create an interesting movie that avoids any perceived mistakes of past films rather than explicitly raising those things and knocking them down as some kind of masturbatory example of self awareness.

As I said before self reflection is key to moving forward. Rian Johnson's trilogy is where we move forward.

Slaythe · Jul 1, 2018

Cheebo said:
Go to any Star Wars forum where they do film rankings. A hell of a lot of people put it over ANH and ROTJ. So calling it laughable when a huge chunk of the fanbase thinks its better than some films in the OT just doesn't make sense to me. Not everyone has the same opinion. For a large chunk of this fanbase, TLJ is indeed up there with ESB already. Others, it obviously isn't. But dismissing and calling it laughable that a lot of the Star Wars fanbase loves TLJ isn't necessary.

That's only because this movie managed to cut the fanbase in two. There are not many people that are still huge fans of star wars and hated TLJ.

The people that hated TLJ are currently shook and dont know what to do now.

I have not played or rewatched ( or spent a dime) on anything star wars since. This is so bizarre.

Also cut myself from any star wars centric places as I dont want to be negative all the time and ruin people's fun.

Kind of waiting to see if Disney tries to throw me a bone or not.

If not I'll keep voting with my wallet.

But many people are in the same situation right now.

Objektivity · Jul 1, 2018

I'm pretty sure that if TLJ had followed up on JJ's mystery box set ups from TFA the 'it had to subvert your expectations/cry moar!' fans wouldn't be shitting on the film for not subverting our expectations because once again the goal of many is to defend the franchise not the actual films.

Laserdisk · Jul 1, 2018

€pcott said:
TLJ is filled with odd attempts at humor and awkward moments masquerading as comedy that just don't work...

As far as this film being held in same regards as the films that came before, who's to say. Personally, I'll always remember this as the 3 day long, low-speed chase film... and it has nothing to do with Luke's portrayal.

Episode 2 and Jedi were worse for those moments, and yet we have 700 threads for this.
I laughed at TLJ, it's lighter moments were not one of the flaws for me, I saw it twice including the biggest screen in the uk and there were tons of laughs.

Pilgore · Jul 1, 2018

How about we just shoot Star Wars into the sun so we no longer need to hear about it's fans.

Crossing Eden · Jul 1, 2018

Objektivity said:
I'm pretty sure that if TLJ had followed up on JJ's mystery box set ups from TFA

TLJ answers every direct plot point in TFA:

Resistance is packing up trying to get away from their base on D'Qar. Direct continuation from TFA where, if you don't recall, Starkiller base was charging up to fire on the Resistance base. FO knew where they were. FO forces were not concentrated at Starkiller base, and it's destruction did not destroy the FO ability to swiftly enter into the galaxy conquering mode.

Finn wakes up from coma, shouting REY, first thing he asks anyone he recognizes, 'Where's Rey?' Direct continuation of his attitude and mission from TFA. If you don't recall, he told Han he specifically came to Starkiller to get Rey.

Luke and Rey on Ach-To, don't know how you can miss the direct continuation there.

Snoke and Kylo. end of TFA, Snoke orders Hux to bring Kylo to him so he can complete his training. Direct continuation, where Snoke berates Kylo for his failure to take out Rey. I personally assume that this convo could itself be an aspect of his training, though it isn't necessarily that, could just be what it appears to be, a dressing down for failure. Training to come later.

"Who is Snoke." is not a mystery box.

Objektivity · Jul 1, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
TLJ answers every direct plot point in TFA:

The point is no matter what kind of film would have been made you guys would be in here defending it.

The same way TFA was defended for being safe and in the next breath TLJ being defended for being subversive of our expectations.

Just Write: Why We Can't Agree About The Last Jedi (Or Art in General)

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