Just Write: Why We Can't Agree About The Last Jedi (Or Art in General)

Objektivity said:

The point is no matter what kind of film would have been made is you guys would be in here defending it.

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Your hypothetical is basically "If they made a film that's as good as TLJ you guys would be defending it." Which is an aggressively stupid thing to say, because people tend to defend good films. And as it stands, TFA and TLJ are great films with very well laid out messages. In your haste to accuse people of fanboyism, you're explicitly missing the point.

-People like TFA for "being safe" because they saw the point i.e. the official return of a franchise that's been mocked to hell and back for over a decade outside of one good cartoon stands as a reminder of why everyone fell in love with the franchise in the first place while introducing it to a new audience that's rightfully nervous for lack of a better phrase about SW being back.

-People like TLJ for being an atypical film because it's a direct followup of that celebration with a critique on the themes of the franchise and the idealization of the old guard vs the new generation, and it concludes that critique by once again, celebrating the heroes we grew up with, and rightfully handing over the franchise to the new generation.

Gunslinger said:

Firing Kathleen Kennedy was the first step imo

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What

Objektivity said:

The point is no matter what kind of film would have been made is you guys would be in here defending it.

The same way TFA was defended for being safe and in the next breath TLJ being defended for being subversive of our expectations.

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I still don't understand why this is a bad thing? They are two separate films over the span of a few years. People are allowed to have different expectations on what different films should do.

JB1981 said:

What

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People taking the Daily Express seriously.

Crossing Eden said:

Your hypothetical is basically "If they made a film that's as good as TLJ you guys would be defending it." Which is an aggressively stupid thing to say, because people tend to defend good films. And as it stands, TFA and TLJ are great films with very well laid out messages. In your haste to accuse people of fanboyism, you're explicitly missing the point.

-People like TFA for "being safe" because they saw the point i.e. the official return of a franchise that's been mocked to hell and back for over a decade outside of one good cartoon stands as a reminder of why everyone fell in love with the franchise in the first place while introducing it to a new audience that's rightfully nervous for lack of a better phrase about SW being back.

-People like TLJ for being an atypical film because it's a direct followup to that celebration with a critique on the themes of the franchise and the idealization of the old guard vs the new generation, and it concludes that critique by once again, celebrating the heroes we grew up with, and rightfully handing over the franchise to the new generation.

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According to you guys TLJ is what it is because it had to be what it is. So are you now backtracking and saying they could have made a different film without shitting on so many fans expectations and it still turn out to be good?

TManPlays said:

I remember back when Attack of the Clones came out, a lot of fans of Star Wars got stupid excited over the Yoda vs Dooku fight because everyone wanted to see Yoda do kick-ass Jedi fighting. And I remember watching it and thinking how stupid it was for him to suddenly be flipping around and doing cartwheels and stuff, and how it didn't flow with my interpretation of Yoda and the Jedi. And maybe that's why I enjoyed TLJ so much because I didn't go in expecting Luke to kick ass and in fact didn't want that, because I felt like it would be another Yoda moment. But a lot of fans enjoyed Yoda's fights and the same group probably wanted a badass Punished Luke which is one of many reasons the movie became divisive.

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Yup. I hated the dragon ball Yoda and loved the idea of a depressed Luke who ends up winning the day by not killing anyone.

After all, Luke already tried to save the day by going pacifist in ROTJ. It didn't go as planned and he had to fight Vader but he did tried to be pacifist. So for him to do that in TLJ, i was perfectly fine with.


The problem i have with TLJ is the Finn/Rose arc that is too long and feel disjointed with the rest, stupid Holdo hiding her plan and the weird slow space chase who don't make much sense in the universe.

Basically, to me, Johnson handled the "Force" parts very well (all the stuff surrounding Luke, Rey and Kylo), the photography and directing was fucking on point, but he fumbled on almost everything else.

Objektivity said:

According to you guys TLJ is what it is because it had to be what it is. So are you now backtracking and saying they could have made a different film without shitting on so many fans expectations and it still turn out to be good?

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Speak for yourself in terms of fan expectations and stop feeling personally attacked because the film was uninterested in YT theory culture. The film as it currently stands, is a perfect followup to TFA as it directly answers the most important questions in that film. Like your main issue is that a more than sizable amount of people are satisfied with those answers. And frankly, conspiracy theories and accusations of "YoU'd bE SAtISFiEd No MATTeR what." isn't interesting for discourse.

I watched both of these videos earlier today. They are not that different than most other YouTube videos praising The Last Jedi in that they focus on some of the good ideas the director had and executed well while completely ignoring the many legitimate points of criticism.

Zefah said:

But I think your other point is exactly why these films don't really sit so well with a lot of people who enjoyed the originals. It's a new crew running the show, who basically took a well established franchise and decided to shit on its legacy and basically chastise anyone who may have enjoyed the previous films despite their very obvious flaws that really didn't need pointing out.

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Honest but well-meaning criticism of a beloved franchise is now shitting on it? That's absurd.

Crossing Eden said:

Speak for yourself in terms of fan expectations and stop feeling personally attacked because the film was uninterested in YT theory culture. The film as it currently stands, is a perfect followup to TFA as it directly answers the most important questions in that film. Like your main issue is that a more than sizable amount of people are satisfied with those answers. And frankly, conspiracy theories and accusations of "YoU'd bE SAtISFiEd No MATTeR what." isn't interesting for discourse.

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I didn't say you'd be satisfied no matter what I don't know what's in your heart. I said the franchise would be defended no matter what.

Laserdisk said:

Episode 2 and Jedi were worse for those moments, and yet we have 700 threads for this.
I laughed at TLJ, it's lighter moments were not one of the flaws for me, I saw it twice including the biggest screen in the uk and there were tons of laughs.

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The only comedic parts I can remember from AOTC were the droid factory antics of 3PO and R2 and 3PO's identity crisis as the result. I admit, I laughed at 3PO's murderous rage, but I know many others cringed. TLJ has silly its scenes, and honestly I don't think it needs to be a %100 serious toned film, but the comedic moments were a bit odly placed and at times undercut the tension of what is to be the "dark middle chapter".

But fans have been spending too much time on this. The film is done, no amount of further breakdown will change what the film released as. It's time to move on and *chuckle* "let the past die"

Objektivity said:

I didn't say you'd be satisfied no matter what I don't know what's in your heart. I said the franchise would be defended no matter what.

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Currently, TFA & TLJ don't really need defending, as a metric fuckton of the criticism of those films either overplay the severity of their weaker moments and/or miss the point of the films entirely. Your posts have been an example of that because you're basically complaining that people understood the intent of the films.

Baron von Loathsome said:

Honest but well-meaning criticism of a beloved franchise is now shitting on it? That's absurd.

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Obviously you appreciated the internal criticism on display a lot more than I did.

Hobbesian Thudercat said:

What did they miss?

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People in the Last Jedi gentle(wo)mans discussion thread have made a lot of excellent points that I agree with, I'd rather not go into detail here so as to not derail the discussion from the content of the video. In general I will say that I consider "you don't like the movie because it wasn't what you thought it would be" the laziest and most dismissive type of argument possible.

The title contains one term I object to - which is "we" - as if there's some new plurality of rational dissent. What ultimately drives the "controversy" about Last Jedi is a temporary (I hope) abberation.

First position: There is no controversy and it's just a typical movie where a lot of people liked it and a reasonable number of folks disliked it because it just wasn't their thing, or reasonable run of the mill movie complaints, or because they imagined it going in a different direction than it did. Big whoop, that's art after all.

Second position: A group of organized brigaders, defined by loneliness and malleability, working themselves into an organized and deliberate misogynist and racist froth based on imagined sleights and agreed upon outrages that is then expressed not just in organized critical response, but actual organized doxxing and attacks on individuals.

A lot of these video essays and write ups defending the movie don't really speak to me because the main defense they always come back to is "yeah...but themes."

I found the movie boring and obnoxious so it doesn't matter to me if it has something meaningful to say. Obviously, thematic content can make a piece of media richer, but if it fails at the basics of telling an entertaining story, then who gives a shit?

Sounding like a broken record now but I feel the movie is average at best not because of the themes but execution. I just don't see how anyone can put this film on the level of ESB when it's so flawed. I guess the story is so strong many over look the bad stuff but man, the bad stuff is as bad as the worst in the prequels. It has great moments, bad moments, it's very uneven and I don't think an uneven film should be mentioned in the same breath as ESB.

There is obviously a misogynistic base to some of the hate The Last Jedi gets, but I think the majority comes from expectations not being filled to a satisfactory level. While some can hopefully find a newfound appreciation for the movie after watching those videos, it does not always translate to enjoyment; with movies reaching as large of an audience as Star Wars, a good amount of the fanbase just wants to see a "fun" movie that has the identity of Star Wars and keeps their attention all the way through. This really shows in how Rogue One, despite having a series of flaws when objectively comparing it to The Last Jedi, proved to be overall more popular and less controversial. for one, it looked like Star Wars because it brought back iconic imagery and also prided itself on delivering action sequence after action sequence based in what fans wanted to see. I think the final tacked on scene with Darth Vader works as a perfect representation for what that movie was and how it resonated with audiences; not much substance, but a whole lot of flair. It didn't challenge audiences, but instead gave them what they've been wanting to see for a long time. The Last Jedi actively works to go against that approach, so regardless of the quality of the movie, it will never be universally popular until new generations grow up with it being a part of their expectation for what a Star Wars movie can be, which I think is the best thing this movie has to offer. But as much as I enjoy the movie, I understand why people didn't like it: It's a good story, but not necessarily a fun story. Luke Skywalker, a beloved character, is presented as a depressed character, all new characters are faced with failure in some way, expectations are purposefully subverted to tell a fresh story (Snoke being a prime example of this), along with themes being what binds the story and its pacing together, not the journey of a specific character or a central conflict. It's one of those movies where you're either on board with a new direction, or completely left behind, which is why some are upset.

Holy crap just saw the UHD copy minutes ago, I frigging like this movie now!

Hated it at the cinema, bought it on UHD because nostalgia (Luke and Leia). Yepp I think you have to see the movie a second time to appreciate it. I didn't even like Kylo Ren or Rey, but love their intertwined arc now!

Great movie!

Pilgore said:

How about we just shoot Star Wars into the sun so we no longer need to hear about it's fans.

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Lol at this point I'm in agreement.

Miamiwesker said:

Sounding like a broken record now but I feel the movie is average at best not because of the themes but execution. I just don't see how anyone can put this film on the level of ESB when it's so flawed. I guess the story is so strong many over look the bad stuff but man, the bad stuff is as bad as the worst in the prequels. It has great moments, bad moments, it's very uneven and I don't think an uneven film should be mentioned in the same breath as ESB.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTJIk5PkTXg&t=1314s

burgervan said:

A lot of these video essays and write ups defending the movie don't really speak to me because the main defense they always come back to is "yeah...but themes."

I found the movie boring and obnoxious so it doesn't matter to me if it has something meaningful to say. Obviously, thematic content can make a piece of media richer, but if it fails at the basics of telling an entertaining story, then who gives a shit?

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Still at work so haven't gotten to watch this video yet, but most of the TLJ discussion I've seen doesn't really address the "I just didn't enjoy it" crowd. It's mostly geared toward the "I had expectations and they were ruined it has to be my Star Wars" people.

Like, of course people ain't gonna like the movie. I don't think that's what those who dug it feel so frustrated by.

The movie was really good at what it was trying to do, but what it was trying to do isn't really what I came to Star Wars for, so it turned me off the franchise. Like I'm not a mega fan or anything, so I wasn't upset like a lot of people were, was more of a coming of the theater, I nodded and went 'cool movie, pity it's not my kind of movie anymore' and moved on with my life. I didn't really enjoy the movie, and while I can say the movie did certain things really well...it just wasn't fun for me.

Plus I felt like it didn't really take Finn and Poe to any cool developments, which was a pity. Like cool movie, but not my kind of movie so I was like "...Ehhh." Tried giving Solo a shot, but that movie was also just not fun.

I'm not gonna say the movie didn't accomplish what it set out to do or that the movie wasn't good - just, the movie wasn't really for me. Which is cool and all, but yeah, didn't really enjoy it.

Zefah said:

So these trilogies are being made to dictate to crazed fans how they should behave? That's the intended audience? That's what they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to do?

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That's the stupidest thing I read this day and I was on Trump twitter earlier, sometime crossingeden is too much lol.

chezzymann said:

I personally thought the movie was good by itself but when viewed as a middle chapter of a trilogy falls apart. It just has this relay race feel to it when paired with the force awakens. Theres no flow between them, the force awakens sets up a bunch of mysteries and the last jedi just gets rid of them. It feels like Rian Johnson just didnt like what JJ was doing and was trying to correct things, which is fine by itself but it feels like the trilogy is "arguing" with itself. And as a result there's not a lot of interesting things to look forward to in episode 9.

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I agree. JJ was hinting at various revelations and Johnson made them nothing. I was quite hyped for TLJ but there's almost nothing I'm looking forward to for the next one. It's set up so poorly. Johnson blew the load with flat, boring answers.

I think the most justified criticism of Kennedy is hiring different directors and making the story up as it goes along.

I have honestly never seen a fandom this big make me not want to be a part of it all. Both sides are absolutely insufferable and it makes talking about the movie on the internet next to impossible. Resulting in having conversations with friends about it instead. I'm sure it will only get worse when the final movie in the trilogy comes out.

I really disliked the film because it felt wholly unoriginal, and the plotline felt unbelievable. It felt like a retread of Empire, with a bit of ROTJ mixed in.Rey goes through a very similar journey to Luke in ESB, and the evens with the Rebels have numerous parallels with situations that occurred in Han and Leia's journey.

The biggest disappointment for me, however, was the main things that advanced the plot just being unbelievable, such as running out of fuel and the First Order not immediately light-speeding some ships forwards to stop them immediately, instead chasing them slowly for hours on end. Also, the miscommunication between Poe and Holdo that led to by far the worst arc in the movie.

The only thing I semi-liked was the ending with Luke, but every other part of the movie, from Leia's force use moment, to the numerous coincidences, to the extremely nonsensical "now it is worth it" in the Casino planet, to "not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love", was all very sub par and extremely poorly executed for me.

I also wasn't a fan of how smaller, but potentially poignant moments were handled, such as Luke meeting Chewie, or hearing about Han's death.

In general, I just found The Last Jedi extremely poorly executed and unoriginal. I somewhat enjoyed TFA, so was looking forward to this, but I have lost interest in this series of episodes.

Excited to see what David Benioff and Dan Weiss can come up with.

I think what annoys me the most is how many people feel insecure that their opinion on a movie isn't the definitive one that everyone can form a consensus around.

A friend of mine told me the other day his two favorite Star Wars movies are The Phantom Menace and The Last Jedi. Who the fuck am I to tell him any differently? They're fucking movies. There's going to be like eighty more Star Wars movies before I die, I'm sure I will like some of them.