The State of the Democrats

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke · Jul 1, 2018

Nola said:
Circle my way out of what? You seem to be setting up straw men and sea lioning me over arguments I'm not really making. I've made a very specific argument and critique of your logic, and you haven't provided any sort of supporting evidence to back up any of your own assertions so I don't know what sort of entitled mindset you have to think I have to work to disprove something? Especially when what you are asking indicates a complete misread of what I have said. Saying something forcefully and being rude to people isn't evidence. If you claim Hillary didn't have a message at all that spoke to issues in the black community, you are objectively wrong(this is a brief but she did at one time have a large white paper available on her website as well). Now whether a message more catered around stuff like that would of won her Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania is entirely speculative and has to be weighed against any number of counter-factuals that could go on forever. My point to you was to get so aggressive in your conviction of it being a problem exclusively of a lack of black messaging is a bit presumptive. Which was the point I made initially. That and it's a bit of seeing the forest for the trees when you say Hillary didn't pander enough to black voters in those states when she didn't pander to basically anyone there and that what ultimately cost her the election was out of her control(which you seem to agree with me about despite claiming I am saying otherwise). I'm actually agreeing in a sense that she didn't have much of a message for places like Wisconsin because she didn't go there. I'm disagreeing in the sense that we can know specifically what message or mix of messages(since no campaign really has one exclusive message, even if they have an overarching theme) would of yielded the highest rate of return.

A generic platform both parties have used and yet to ficx regarding criminal justice reform us not really a message.

If you look at her Hispanic/immigrant, LGBT, and Bernue compromise positions she directly specifies multiple issues and gives possible solutions for each one. She doesn't do that for Black Americans.

Again I'm not saying I know exactly what the results would be as you keep implying, but I do think and and others have downplayed her lack of effort.

But anyway my main point was that a new strategy would be needed for the Dems to win 2020 and I think we both have no issue coming to agreement on that. As of this moment I have not seen any marginal impirovenent in this area and and we are soon to be half-way through the current election cycle.

Mass Effect · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Thanks for this.

I think the hardest pill to swallow is the idea that such a platform wouldn't fly in Middle America.

It's specifically made to help everyone. It's asinine that people refuse it, and I tend to believe it's simply due to party lines. Without a doubt people would support it if a Republican brought it to the table.

That's just fucked.

I believe Cortez's platform can scale to statewide levels. Some parts would take more priorities than other depending on region but overall it's a plan to help people.

Things like :

A real infastructure and maintenance plan to create jobs and maintain them for years to come.

Stimulus package for education

Specialty programs for STEM

Liveable wage prorated to state level economy

A working healthcare plan

Seeing people oppose these things make you want to say Fuck It. It makes no sense to be opposed to such ideas unless you're just a Luddite or you're honestly jealous you didn't propose them yourself.

This is probably the illusion that breaks when joining politics. You genuinely want to help others and people simply don't want your help for whatever reason.

It's akin to hooking someone up with an interview, buying them nice clothes, offering to drive them to the interview and come interview day, they choose to stay home and play video games.

Well fuck it then.

And just so we're clear here, I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment, just the approach. There's certainly too much limpdicking going on with the party right now.

Like you said, Democrats should definitely be improving their messaging. Make it clear what you stand for, and just as importantly, make it clear what you don't stand for. Dems need to go all in this fall and in 2020. No more tip-toeing around "civility" or "decorum." Fire with fire.

And you are right, there are issues that Dems should absolutely not compromise on. Like social rights. Democrats need to flat out and say "if you have a problem with brown people, women or LGBT having equal rights, then we aren't the party for you. Go away." Same with minimum wage and workers rights (though to what extent can be tailored to the demographic). I'd even argue healthcare and and education, but like with min wage, this can be adjusted based on the area.

Democrats need to start pushing much of their policies on a state level as well. Look at how marijuana legalization has turned out. It's making those states tons of money and has improved national sentiment on legalization. Same with minimum wage, though to a lesser extent. We need blue states to push full universal healthcare (not Romneycare like in MA). Better tuition assistance for college. The list goes on.

On infrastructure: Support for it nationally is without a doubt a partisan thing on the Republican's side. Where I live (Alabama), Repubs are always saying "we need more infrastructure and we're going to build it! we just need more funding first... PLEASE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HELP US." Point being that conservatives aren't against it as long as they get the credit for it (and, locally/statewide at least, get handouts from the government to help with it of course).

Sanjuro · Jul 1, 2018

Mass Effect said:
And just so we're clear here, I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment, just the approach. There's certainly to much limpdicking going on with the party right now.

Democrats should definitely be improving their messaging. Make it clear what you stand for, and just as importantly, make it clear what you don't stand for. Dems need to go all in this fall and in 2020. No more tip-toeing around "civility" or "decorum." Fire with fire.

And you are right, there are issues that Dems should absolutely not compromise on. Like social rights. Democrats need to flat out and say "if you have a problem with brown people, women or LGBT having equal rights, then we aren't the party for you. Go away." Same with minimum wage and workers rights (though to what extent can be tailored to the demographic). I'd even argue healthcare and and education, but like with min wage, this can be adjusted based on the area.

Democrats need to start pushing much of their policies on a state level as well. Look at how marijuana legalization has turned out. It's making those states tons of money and has improved national sentiment on legalization. Same with minimum wage, though to a lesser extent. We need blue states to push full universal healthcare (not Romneycare like in MA). Better tuition assistance for college. The list goes on.

On infrastructure: Support for it nationally is without a doubt a partisan thing on the Republican's side. Where I live (Alabama), Repubs are always saying "we need more infrastructure and we're going to build it! we just need more funding first... PLEASE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HELP US." Point being that conservatives aren't against it as long as they get the credit for it (and, locally/statewide at least, get handouts from the government to help with it of course).

RomneyCare is still great.

Nola · Jul 1, 2018

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke said:
A generic platform both parties have used and yet to ficx regarding criminal justice reform us not really a message.

If you look at her Hispanic/immigrant, LGBT, and Bernue compromise positions she directly specifies multiple issues and gives possible solutions for each one. She doesn't do that for Black Americans.

Again I'm not saying I know exactly what the results would be as you keep implying, but I do think and and others have downplayed her lack of effort.

But anyway my main point was that a new strategy would be needed for the Dems to win 2020 and I think we both have no issue coming to agreement on that. As of this moment I have not seen any marginal impirovenent in this area and and we are soon to be half-way through the current election cycle.

I mean she had a fairly mediocre campaign all around, and she probably(almost certainly) did do a subpar job appealing to black voters in multiple states, not disagreeing at all there. And mediocre is not going to get you over the hump with her lack of charisma and the sort of baggage she had on her ready to be pounced on(real or manufactured) by opposition(and even her own party). In what is an increasingly illiberal system that gives an advantage to the Republicans.

I think at the end of the day presidential elections are sort of a organic, fairly chaotic thing though. So I wouldn't get too worried right now. Rarely does it seem like what is trending 2 years out ends up being what happens two years later, for good and bad.

If you were to jump back into time to 2005 or 2006, the Democratic party was still reeling from the Kerry defeat and seemed to be in complete chaos. Many suspecting the path forward was a Bill Clinton style candidate like John Edwards that could appeal to middle America. Turns out a black guy from Chicago with some great forward-thinking campaign staff was the answer. Same could be said about Trump's rise as well(though despite the rhetoric I always thought he made perfect sense for the party as an eventual logical step).

Though I definitely agree that whoever emerges needs to have a far better strategy than Hillary's, one that unifies, motivates, and speaks to the broad coalition much more effectively, including black voters who are crucial to Democratic success, if the party doesn't want to stumble in 2020.

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke · Jul 1, 2018

Mass Effect said:
Like social rights. Democrats need to flat out and say "if you have a problem with brown people, women or LGBT having equal rights, then we aren't the party for you. Go away." Same with minimum wage and workers rights (though to what extent can be tailored to the demographic). I'd even argue healthcare and and education,

So here's the thing, I agree with you, but the reason why Democrats like pelodi and Schumer lean towards the moderates/bluedigs and swing voters is because mathematically they can't win the electoral college (at this point) without them.

I'm not exactly sure if there's a work around.to be fair to establishment Democrats I don't think they are leaning right for no reason.

Eduardo Corrochio · Jul 1, 2018

"We need to talk this through"

"Point 1. Sit down and shut up"

DigitalOp · Jul 1, 2018

Eduardo Corrochio said:
"We need to talk this through"

"Point 1. Sit down and shut up"

I won't concede this point.

If you're criticizing the tone of people fighting the current administration, sit down and shut up

Mass Effect · Jul 1, 2018

Sanjuro said:
RomneyCare is still great.

Oh, I'm not saying it's bad. But I would like to see at least one state go for a single-payer system. Private insurance would still be allowed of course.

Those more familiar with RomneyCare, should Democrats try to implement a similar plan in other states or just go for proper universal healthcare? I think we should just jump straight to UC.

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke said:
So here's the thing, I agree with you, but the reason why Democrats like pelodi and Schumer lean towards the moderates/bluedigs and swing voters is because mathematically they can't win the electoral college (at this point) without them.

I'm not exactly sure if there's a work around.to be fair to establishment Democrats I don't think they are leaning right for no reason.

At the very least, they should not compromise on social issues.

The Democratic party has become the party of Equal Rights. They need to accept and embrace it.

Eduardo Corrochio said:
"We need to talk this through"

"Point 1. Sit down and shut up"

To be fair, if you read the thread, DigitalOp is listening to others here.

People that have presented well-reasoned arguments about how some of his strategies may not work have not been shouted down by him.

mclaren777 · Jul 1, 2018

PanickyFool said:
Let's not pretend like we Dems are anywhere near close.
Governors:

Montana has a democrat governor? Wowsers!

TheGhost · Jul 1, 2018

Dragon Puncher said:
Yeah I agree, average Americans have a terrible relationship with politics in general. In the last midterms the turnout was 36% I think, which is just stupefying considering how much is at stake

Me and you know stuff is at stake, the average Democrat, republican that I know? Could care less. I would say a large chunk of the 36% are the people that live and breath this stuff. Everyone else just saw "the apprentice guy and the woman who has been lampooned by everything from SNL to late night comedy shows for 20+ years"

So what is the state of the regular everyday registered Democrats, the people who are not activists and enthusiasts.

Not worrying until 2020 I guess. Probably dreading their FB feed being taken over by political talk again.

Kirblar · Jul 1, 2018

mclaren777 said:
Montana has a democrat governor? Wowsers!

Some of the red states are far more elastic locally than others. Same with the blue ones. And stuff like O'Malley being insanely unpopular in MD by the end will lead to stuff like a R governor in MD.

Sanjuro · Jul 1, 2018

Mass Effect said:
Oh, I'm not saying it's bad. But I would like to see at least one state go for a single-payer system. Private insurance would still be allowed of course.

Those more familiar with RomneyCare, should Democrats try to implement a similar plan in other states or just go for proper universal healthcare? I think we should just jump straight to UC.

At the very least, they should not compromise on social issues.

The Democratic party has become the party of Equal Rights. They need to accept and embrace it.

To be fair, if you read the thread, DigitalOp is listening to others here.

People that have presented well-reasoned arguments about how some of his strategies may not work have not been shouted down by him.

RomneyCare bailed me out of a tough situation, and as far as I know they are still the primary provider over ObamaCare.

I hate to leave it to the states, but I think having a mandated guideline of coverage universally, with each state providing their individual coverage should work.

Border · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
The thing is, those people exist. I'm friends with alot of them. We share the same values. They are progressives.

They don't vote. Why?

Because they know this country is full of shit. They feel their vote doesn't matter, (it kinda doesn't when you really get to the numbers depending on state) Politicians like, and they do. And most importantly these parties never target the issues important to them.

It's entirely debatable whether or not there are enough of those people to offset the losses you would incur by giving up on the white middle-class voters of states like Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Virginia, etc.

Beyond that though, what is the point in courting these ultra progressives when you have no capability to deliver on the things they want? Obamacare, Roe V Wade, gay marriage, workers' rights and union rights will likely not survive a Trump-orchestrated Supreme Court. Put as many leftist radicals as you want in Congress or the White House, but their laws will be shot down by the court. At that point how are they going to be re-eleected by these finicky ultra-progressives who have seen their desired policies thrown into the dumpster by the judicial branch? Are those people going to come out and vote then?

On some level, it makes more sense to serve a constituency that you have some hope of satisfying, rather than a group so dissatisfied that it frequently results in infighting amongst even like-minded individuals.

Super Corpse Soldier · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Originally, I was going to make a thread about how it was time for a new political party.

After some thought, I did realize that the timing of this idea may actually hurt us more than help. The Dems are needed here and as of last week, there has been some serious concerns that have popped up lately.

I figure this thread is more needed at the moment, alot of infighting and Dems need to sit down and hash this out.

Here a couple points of discussion -

1 ) Moderate and Establishment Dems need to sit down and shut up. Finger wagging and tut tuting your electorate at such a polarized time was the most spineless shit we've ever seen from the party.

Prob more spinless than that weak ass fight for DACA. "Civility" died in November 2016. Our opposition are the complete opposite of decorum and civility. You're bringing a knife to a gun fight here. Republicans brought out the Uzis and it's time for us to bring out the AKs (metaphorically speaking)

Either you step the fuck back and shape up, or we will primary that ass. We have absolutely no time to try fighting with one hand right now.

2) Dems seriously need to learn how to fight. Because we're getting our ass beat by children right now. Simply either because their too afraid to fight or they actually don't know how...

The irony is that we talk about "playing dirty" as a response but we don't need Republican tactics. We don't need to lie and decieve. Democrats only need 2 weapons. Truth and Facts. Where Democrats fail is that they refuse to take off the kid gloves and are adamant to keep using a filter. Take off the fucking kid gloves, drop the filter.

Call the Clown a racist and a facist. Call Miller a racist and a facist. Call Milania complicit. Call Ivanka complicit. Call Kushner incompetent. Call SHS a liar and duplicitous.

Again moderate Dems are the posion here. They are more concerned with preserving the feelings of Republicans friends at dinner than speaking the truth.

Why the fuck does David Hogg and John Legend have stronger rhetoric than Dem Leaders? That is absurdity of the highest order.

3 ) Ocasta-Cortez's platform needs to be the baseline Democratic platform for the party. Do I have to explain this? Why do I have to explain this? A rising tide lifts all boats. These key points should be the baseline of ANY country serving it's citizens.

4 ) For the love of sweet baby Jesus in the manger, let the goddamn Centrists and Moderate electorate go! Let them go Dems! They are not votes to be won. It is 2018, almost damn near 2 years into the worst presidency in the modern era....

If you're still a Moderate/Centrist at the moment, you're either:

A Republican who wants to hide from social stigma

Or

You want to voice your opinion on shit but not be involved in process.

Dems, these people don't matter. Leave them in the middle. Move further left. These people thrive under the guise "morality" and indecisiveness. Move further left Dems!

They can either decide to stand with American Progressives, go join the Racists, or pull the fuck away from the process entirely. Stop treating these people like they matter Dems.

5 ) Dems need to reach out and call out to the media.

"The free press is not the enemy of the American people, however you allow Republicans to thrive under false equivalency and a lack of action to call out their lies. We need the press to inform the people of what is happening to this country! We need the press to investigate and report the truths!"

When Dems show up for media circuits, they need the hard receipts on deck. They need to stand firm and call the bullshit.

Let's discuss and hash this shit out.

I agree with pretty much everything you said on a point by point basis. We don't need anymore polite Surrender Democrats.

JaY P. · Jul 1, 2018

I think the best way forward for Democrats is to focus on messaging. The fact of the matter is that republicans have mastered the art of policy by bullet point and reinforcing those bullet points loud and often. I'm also impressed by the discipline of the party to use the exact bullet points repeatedly.

Democrats always have to explain their positions even when they are right in their justifications. The masses do not want explanations, they want to hear a catchy slogan or phrase that expresses a solution to their problems.

The only hope Dems have is to leverage grassroots social media messaging akin to how David Hogg was able mobilize against Ingraham. If the left can mobilize social media effectively they will have better prospect in the mid term and presidential elections.

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke · Jul 1, 2018

mclaren777 said:
Montana has a democrat governor? Wowsers!

Montana, Wyoming,Idaho and the 5 red middle states could flip blue if Dems stopped ignoring them and calling them flyovers.

Hillary getting those +Arkansas would have won her the election even with Trump's pen/Mich/wins wins.

VectorPrime · Jul 1, 2018

I'm just picturing the juxtaposition between a frail grandma enthusiastically waiting 3 hours in line in the hot Florida sun for her chance to vote
and a smug kid who doesn't bother voting because no particular candidate excites them in all the right ways.

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke · Jul 1, 2018

Border said:
It's entirely debatable whether or not there are enough of those people to offset the losses you would incur by giving up on the white middle-class voters of states like Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Virginia, etc.

Beyond that though, what is the point in courting these ultra progressives when you have no capability to deliver on the things they want? Obamacare, Roe V Wade, gay marriage, workers' rights and union rights will likely not survive a Trump-orchestrated Supreme Court. Put as many leftist radicals as you want in Congress or the White House, but their laws will be shot down by the court. At that point how are they going to be re-eleected by these finicky ultra-progressives who have seen their desired policies thrown into the dumpster by the judicial branch? Are those people going to come out and vote then?

On some level, it makes more sense to serve a constituency that you have some hope of satisfying, rather than a group so dissatisfied that it frequently results in infighting amongst even like-minded individuals.

I mean it's one thing to abandon working class and rust belt but an ultra right Bernie guy would also abandoned moderate and blue dog Democrats.

I think it's mathematically impossible to win.

Then there's the bigger issue that many aren't considering. Can a Bernie-like democrat get enough people to believe in their platform when Trump's about to stack the court to the right? The court will just strike down any socialist policy.

That's likely to make some voters question if the vote is worth it.

Chie Satonaka · Jul 1, 2018

Megalosaro said:
You're a stupid mother fucker if you think "letting go" of centralist and moderates is the way to go. That is a surefire way to never win another election ever again.

The demonization of them on this forum is so myopic it's ridiculous. I can see demonizing Republicans. But most moderates and centralist are definitely not the enemy.

Why not?

What exactly is the moderate/centrist platform, and why is it that Democrats specifically have to cater to it?

Republicans had a lot of help in this election, but they won by going after their base. Hard. And with the bullshit that's happening now, that's still who they're going after. His fucking campaign events are all about Red Meat to the base without even a smidgen of truth, but a lot of you guys in this thread just want to do the same stupid thing: Keep a platform that ultimately offers nothing to anyone (particularly the most marginalized) and go back to the same soft white supremacist status quo that we've been doing this entire time instead of the current hard one.

As much as I like Cortez and adore her platform, I don't think that strategy is a winner. That said, I do think that having party leadership fighting this administration aggressively is going to be one of the ways to beat this monster. I also think we need to move further to the left, and should expect our fucking representatives to REPRESENT US, instead of pining away for an era of civility and decorum that never really existed for anyone besides them. The Republican Party has always been this way. They just kept it in check because they didn't have a fascist strongman who would allow them to remove their filter.

I want a party who wants to fight for me, who wants do dismantle systems of inequality, and make a more prosperous America for everyone. The current Democratic party meets none of those criteria. And if I see some more bullshit where they decide to marginalize a prominent female black voice who represents everything we SHOULD be right now, I won't be voting again until leadership changes. And I'm not the only one who feels that way, either.

Maybe you should start trying to figure out how to deal with people who feel abandoned by the Democrats instead of wringing your fucking hands all the time about moderates and centrists.

Kirblar · Jul 1, 2018

Chie Satonaka said:
Why not?

What exactly is the moderate/centrist platform, and why is it that Democrats specifically have to cater to it?

Republicans had a lot of help in this election, but they won by going after their base. Hard. And with the bullshit that's happening now, that's still who they're going after. His fucking campaign events are all about Red Meat to the base without even a smidgen of truth, but a lot of you guys in this thread just want to do the same stupid thing: Keep a platform that ultimately offers nothing to anyone (particularly the most marginalized) and go back to the same soft white supremacist status quo that we've been doing this entire time instead of the current hard one.

As much as I like Cortez and adore her platform, I don't think that strategy is a winner. That said, I do think that having party leadership fighting this administration aggressively is going to be one of the ways to beat this monster. I also think we need to move further to the left, and should expect our fucking representatives to REPRESENT US, instead of pining away for an era of civility and decorum that never really existed for anyone besides them. The Republican Party has always been this way. They just kept it in check because they didn't have a fascist strongman who would allow them to remove their filter.

I want a party who wants to fight for me, who wants do dismantle systems of inequality, and make a more prosperous America for everyone. The current Democratic party meets none of those criteria. And if I see some more bullshit where they decide to marginalize a prominent female black voice who represents everything we SHOULD be right now, I won't be voting again until leadership changes. And I'm not the only one who feels that way, either.

Maybe you should start trying to figure out how to deal with people who feel abandoned by the Democrats instead of wringing your fucking hands all the time about moderates and centrists.

The Dem base cannot win elections alone in most states.

That is the problem.

Chie Satonaka · Jul 1, 2018

Kirblar said:
The Dem base cannot win elections alone in most states.

That is the problem.

If Republicans can pull in moderates with a far right platform and win elections, and the Democrats cannot win without explicitly catering to moderates, we have no party.

I shouldn't be surprised, though. The Democratic Party is filled with people who love the status quo and don't want to rock the boat anyway; of course they're fine to catering right wingers and Republicans who just don't want the stink of the R name.

Not a great sales pitch for those of us who feel left behind, by the way.

Thisman · Jul 1, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Moderate and Establishment Dems need to sit down and shut up. Finger wagging and tut tuting your electorate at such a polarized time was the most spineless shit we've ever seen from the party.

I was with you until this which ironically is the first point . Moderates are the only kind of democrats when the candidate is good going to win you elections on a broader scale . The country is center and center right for the most part and when you converse in the bubble you don't realize this but when you talk to folks they aren't left and they aren't deplorable right but independent thinkers who are centrists and moderate for the most part

Kirblar · Jul 1, 2018

Chie Satonaka said:
If Republicans can pull in moderates with a far right platform and win elections, and the Democrats cannot win without explicitly catering to moderates, we have no party.

I shouldn't be surprised, though. The Democratic Party is filled with people who love the status quo and don't want to rock the boat anyway; of course they're fine to catering right wingers and Republicans who just don't want the stink of the R name.

Not a great sales pitch for those of us who feel left behind, by the way.

Its not a sales pitch. Its the reality. Just like you cant win the Dem primary ignoring black voters, you cant win state elections ignoring obnoxious moderate white swing voters.

If the US was demographically equivalent to a solid blue state we wouldn't be having this conversation. VA just had a massive blue swing where we won the GOV race by 9 points and only got 49 seats in the state house cause of gerrymandering. And it was done with Northam running a super milquetoast messaging campaign. But it got us medicaid expansion and a hard veto on GOP schenanigans.

Ultimately, I cant change how you feel. I can only lay out why i feel very differently.

Relix · Jul 1, 2018

Not having moderates vote is how you lose. Thankfully you are in no seat of power OP or well get Trump until 2028

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke · Jul 1, 2018

Thisman said:
I was with you until this which ironically is the first point . Moderates are the only kind of democrats when the candidate is good going to win you elections on a broader scale . The country is center and center right for the most part and when you converse in the bubble you don't realize this but when you talk to folks they aren't left and they aren't deplorable right but independent thinkers who are centrists and moderate for the most part

Right now the Democrats are split and the farther side wants to dismiss everyone that won't agree because they don't think there should be compromise.

Issues is the EC doesn't work like that. Heck the popular vote doesn't work like that either.

But that's not the only issue, Democrats don't come out enough for local elections were moderate Democrats are basically the only guys voting.

ebs · Jul 1, 2018

One simple question.

If you concede all moderate voters, are you even left with enough votes to win in the first place?

Thisman · Jul 1, 2018

ebs said:
One simple question.

If you concede all moderate voters, are you even left with enough votes to win in the first place?

When you realize that most of the women marchers and protestors aren't leftists but from center right to left you relie you need all those voters to win. If democrats break left, they will lose . Worse than Mondale

prag16 · Jul 1, 2018

You've learned nothing. That isn't going to work.

Prophaniti said:
Alienate moderates. Purity test all dems. Fantastic idea. I'm glad we've learned nothing.

You can accuse me, a conservative (who doesn't like Trump) of concern trolling, but don't worry, plenty of liberals throughout the topic (but not enough) are saying it too. Or are they all closet filthy moderates.

The OP plays great here where 90+% of vocal posters probably mostly agree. But somewhere around the percentage of "moderates" it would take to re-elect Trump in 2020 would read this thread and laugh in our faces.

carlsojo · Jul 1, 2018

Tbm24 said:
Very, Trump is losing his re-election all on his own.

Lmao just like he lost the election to Hillary all on his own. Dems need to run on a platform that isn't "not Trump".

Look at Ocasio-Cortez's platform.

Pandaman · Jul 1, 2018

Chie Satonaka said:
If Republicans can pull in moderates with a far right platform and win elections, and the Democrats cannot win without explicitly catering to moderates, we have no party.
.

Yep. Work with what you have, not what you'd like to have. Progressivism in America has to sneak in the back door when the moderates aren't looking.

Zyrokai · Jul 1, 2018

yogurt said:
Yep. There are a lot of folks here who still don't seem to understand that most of the country isn't as liberal as ERA. Not even close. I grew up in the south. What works in California and New York does not work in the South / Midwest outside of a few metro areas.

It would be a different story if our electoral system didn't so heavily favor land over population, but for now rural areas are overrepresented.

And the 2020 census will be so messed up that Rural America will just gained even more over- representation

Feep · Jul 1, 2018

OP's strategy is almost objectively losing. No matter how much I agree with it or want it to happen, the far left can't win an election in this country by itself. The idea is to shift the Overton Window, and you can't do that unless you win a goddamn election.

We aren't going to become a heavy socialist nation overnight. Your purity test nonsense would only make sure our Supreme Court is even more fucked for decades.

DigitalOp · Jul 1, 2018

prag16 Pandaman Feep Thisman

Thanks for the responses.

I'm glad I made this thread as I'm able to see what I overlooked, what I didnt account for, and what I didn't know.

But I will remain to be 100% honest.

This shit looks absolutely hopeless and this country seems beyond redemption.

Despite it being recent news, I didn't even consider the Supreme Courts effect in all this. We virtually have 100 plus years of Conservative blocks in place on progressive legislation.

The fact that Dems have to grovel and beg and parlay with a fickle ass moderate electorate is just frankly bullshit.

Meanwhile the Republicans collectively shove their foot up everyone's ass and tell them it's colonoscopy. The electorate comes running to kiss their ass.

It is sort of some far cry to actually expect progressive reform to this fucked up ass country. The idea that Switzerland type social nets being applied to America is some unicorn is a sobering one.

One honestly can't be blamed for just walking away from all this bullshit to be quite honest. You try to bring everyone up but they'd rather burn down the house.

One should vote Democrat just to return to political normalcy, but the style of Democrat is completely up in the air.

I'm inclined to step back and just watch. I fully expect the Obama style failures of bipartisan legislation where the next Dem reaches across the isle while the Republicans spit in their hands.

Maybe this country actually does belong to White People after all.

Carnby · Jul 1, 2018

This thread reminds of the Families Belong Together rally I was at on Saturday.

Speaker after speaker was rebuking Trump's racist policies and the audience was united. Then came the speaker who said immigration problems started with Obama's policies, and capitalism is the root of all evil. You could feel the division until this speaker left the stage.

I think denouncing allies because we don't agree on everything will get Trump re-elected.

Ogodei · Jul 1, 2018

The problem with the current party is that it's structure was built in the late 80s and 90s, after the absolute shellacking of Walter Mondale prompted soul-searching. The problem with that, of course, is that we're almost 30 years away from that so the strategy should not be gospel any longer, but it will take a while to get those attitudes out of party leadership.

I can see the frustration from them not taking aggressive policy positions, but when you're in the minority, being the party of No works and it works pretty damn well, because that really is all the people disaffected with government need as a rallying cry. The key is that they have ideas when the time comes, and it's clear that they do, but they're not going to endorse those ideas from the very top because when you're not in power, you want voters to be able to project their fantasy onto you.

fracas · Jul 1, 2018

I don't think we win by going hard left. Not this election, anyway. Ocasio-Cortez is potentially the party's future, but I don't know if that platform is capable of taking home a presidential election just yet. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'd gladly settle for our current party leadership actually standing up to this administration. I wish Obama was in the spotlight more.

Sinfamy · Jul 1, 2018

I'm just tired of centrist and corporatist Democrats telling the left to shut up and get in line under the faux banner of unity, because they know better, even though they're perpetual losers with candidates that have zero energy and lack messaging that goes beyond just platitudes.

You want unity, great, step aside for once and let there be a real left opposition party in this country.

The overton windows in terms of politics has moved so far right that anyone who is a centrist is a conservative lite at best.

Carnby said:
This thread reminds of the Families Belong Together rally I was at on Saturday.

Speaker after speaker was rebuking Trump's racist policies and the audience was united. Then came the speaker who said immigration problems started with Obama's policies, and capitalism is the root of all evil. You could feel the division in a rally until this speaker left the stage.

I think denouncing allies because we don't agree on everything will get Trump re-elected.

It's also important to be consistent regardless of who is in charge, we were in a dozen military conflicts, dropping bombs from drones, persecuting journalists, toppling foreign governments, and had a draconian immigration policy under Obama as well, but many partisans kept quiet because it was their guy.

I was against foreign intervention under Bush, Obama and now Trump, if someone kept their head under the sand until 2016 to come out and be outspoken, they're part of the problem and the validity of complaint falls on deaf ears.

jeelybeans · Jul 1, 2018

This is a terrible thread that doesn't understand how to run a national party. I love Cortez, but her district is not.mines in Texas that has a chance of flipping this year (like many others). You people are insane.

Akira86 · Jul 1, 2018

Yeah its time to chase them over to the other side and then feed all of them to bears.
I don't even want them to sit down and shut up, I just want them to feed the bears.

FreedomFighter · Jul 2, 2018

Microsoft SM Hunert Smoke said:
Dems need to pick up more black votes in Michigan.

Dems biggest mistake in 2016 was trying to replace black votes with hisp/Latino ones and tripling down on social issues most blacks didn't agree with.

If you look at those last few states Trump won the amount he won by was so low just a slight uptick in black turn out would have won Hillary the election.

But ATM Blacks aren't a voting block that requires effort according to the Dems. They just expect our votes for free. Which resulted in a high flip to Republican, and a much higher amount of people staying home in 2016.

Pandering wasn't going to get people to vote for her, which is what she did. I found it to be quite insulting. Instead of trying to pretend to down, how about discuss what you will do to make things better in communities of color that are suffering from so many socioeconomic problems. But there is no real intention to change the status quo and that's why, even now, Dems are only focusing on "we're not Trump!" instead of anything of substance. And too many of them go along with Trump when you look at how they vote. So much for resistance. That NYT article about the barbers in Milwaukee not voting really resonates with me beca uh se I feel the same way. I just want the Dems to be so much more. And I'm not even mad at them for not being what I want them to be, it's more so the fault of the political system with only two real parties and winner take all. It needs to change. Everyone is not being represented. And this system is unfair to 3rd parties on purpose.

Chris Hedges had this to say about the current state of the Democratic Party. He's harsh but he's absolutely right;

Chris Hedges said:
The Democratic Party, which helped build our system of inverted totalitarianism, is once again held up by many on the left as the savior. Yet the party steadfastly refuses to address the social inequality that led to the election of Trump and the insurgency by Bernie Sanders. It is deaf, dumb and blind to the very real economic suffering that plagues over half the country. It will not fight to pay workers a living wage. It will not defy the pharmaceutical and insurance industries to provide Medicare for all. It will not curb the voracious appetite of the military that is disemboweling the country and promoting the prosecution of futile and costly foreign wars. It will not restore our lost civil liberties, including the right to privacy, freedom from government surveillance, and due process. It will not get corporate and dark money out of politics. It will not demilitarize our police and reform a prison system that has 25 percent of the world's prisoners although the United States has only 5 percent of the world's population. It plays to the margins, especially in election seasons, refusing to address substantive political and social problems and instead focusing on narrow cultural issues like gay rights, abortion and gun control in our peculiar species of anti-politics.

BBboy20 · Jul 2, 2018

DigitalOp said:
a new political party.

The GOP is pretty much irredeemable, thus it has to be burned to the ground and start anew.

Of course, a one party state is bad in the long run but the problem is that right wing rhetoric is very blood thirsty and we don't know how long that will last.

DigitalOp · Jul 2, 2018

jeelybeans said:
This is a terrible thread that doesn't understand how to run a national party. I love Cortez, but her district is not.mines in Texas that has a chance of flipping this year (like many others). You people are insane.

You say we're insane, but maybe we just expect different things from the party?

My points essentially boil down to "Try something new". People are tired of Old Dog Corporate Democrats. Put someone out there with different policies instead of trying to return to the status quo.

I listed examples of Infastructure programs, Education funding, Statewide Healthcare... Things that uplift everybody, even Republicans. Those things help the people, the American citizens.

Texas gonna have a problem with that? Is that such a detestable thing?

Wouldn't you say that's more of a problem with the electorate than the platform?

Deleted member 18324 · Jul 2, 2018

1) The right wing of the democrats telling anyone how to win elections is a fucking joke - that these people are still prominent within the party is part of the problem. They've lost about 1000 seats and an election that was handed to them on a platter. For a group that constantly espouses technocratic meritocracy they should actually have been run out of the party given the merits of their performance.
2) The claim that Democrats need to run to the right is complete horseshit - why would anyone who is actually bought into movement conservatism touch a diet Republican, when the Tea Party and the Heritage foundation will amply provide these people what they want? The target should be the much higher volume of checked-out voters, with whom a left program is more popular anyway. Of course, the right wing of the party has completely rolled over when it comes to engaging voters anyway.
3) This wing of the Democrats will do no material work to oppose fascism beyond positioning themselves as "not Trump". They will push against any change that may put off their donors or threaten their own hold over the party, because they would rather preside over a losing party and keep the gravy train of consulting fees and corporate donors rolling in, rather than win on a platform that explicitly ends that arrangement. Chuck Schumer happily endorsed the embassy move to Jerusalem, and the majority of the party hand-waved through a massive military spending increase - how are Chuck and co addressing fascism when they are complicit in arming said fascist and enabling the apocalyptic foreign policy of the far right?

Alexandros · Jul 2, 2018

DigitalOp said:
My points essentially boil down to "Try something new". People are tired of Old Dog Corporate Democrats. Put someone out there with different policies instead of trying to return to the status quo.

I agree that different economic policies are necessary for Democrats but abandoning the moderates and focusing on the left will not yield the results you want. You may be overestimating how many hardcore left voters are out there. Most people do not fully adopt the political platform of the left or the right. They are largely apathetic towards a lot of issues and vote based on the couple things that interest them the most. If you push these people away you are basically handing them the election on a silver platter.

Deleted member 22490 · Jul 2, 2018

Alexandros said:
I agree that different economic policies are necessary for Democrats but abandoning the moderates and focusing on the left will not yield the results you want. You may be overestimating how many hardcore left voters are out there.

I don't think he's overestimating hardcore left, but hopes that leftist policy will encourage more people to show up and turn out to vote for the Democrats rather than stay home because in their view, both parties are the same (in the myopic sense that neither does anything for them). Polls had Ocasio-Cortez way behind, but she still won because she targeted those who do not normally show up to vote. That's what Democrats need to do.

Alexandros · Jul 2, 2018

Helio said:
I don't think he's overestimating hardcore left, but hopes that leftist policy will encourage more people to show up and turn out to vote for the Democrats rather than stay home because in their view, both parties are the same (in the myopic sense that neither does anything for them). Polls had Ocasio-Cortez way behind, but she still won because she targeted those who do not normally show up to vote. That's what Democrats need to do.

What kind of leftist policies are we talking about? What shouild be the central leftist message of the next presidential candidate?

Skelepuzzle · Jul 2, 2018

prag16 said:
You've learned nothing. That isn't going to work.

You can accuse me, a conservative (who doesn't like Trump) of concern trolling, but don't worry, plenty of liberals throughout the topic (but not enough) are saying it too. Or are they all closet filthy moderates.

The OP plays great here where 90+% of vocal posters probably mostly agree. But somewhere around the percentage of "moderates" it would take to re-elect Trump in 2020 would read this thread and laugh in our faces.

Your party got us here but you're going to lecture us on what we should and shouldn't do?

No one should bow to Republican racism. That is and has been the problem.

Deleted member 22490 · Jul 2, 2018

Alexandros said:
What kind of leftist policies are we talking about? What shouild be the central leftist message of the next presidential candidate?

Basically AOCs platform would be a good start

Kirblar · Jul 2, 2018

DigitalOp said:
You say we're insane, but maybe we just expect different things from the party?

Wouldn't you say that's more of a problem with the electorate than the platform?

The goal of the party is to gain power in order to achieve its goals.

The electorate is the problem, but you can't change them. So you look for variables you can change - platform and messaging tactics.

prag16 · Jul 2, 2018

Skelepuzzle said:
Your party got us here but you're going to lecture us on what we should and shouldn't do?

No one should bow to Republican racism. That is and has been the problem.

Look, you do whatever the hell you want. Keep making everything about race. It's worked out so well thus far.

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