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LightEntite

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,079
Which if true (which I do not think it is) would be ironic because it is more successful than Metroid and Castlevania together several times.

Well 2D Mario games got shoveled out at a pretty impressive rate last generation.

Metroidvanias take forever to do, Nintendo themselves don't seem to even want to bother with them unless they're remakes. Same with Castlevania

so i mean it isn't that surprising
 

Tito

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,030
Eh??

Mario games generally stretch single gimmicks over entire WORLDS.

An actual faithful Mario-esque indie game can't be that difficult to make, certainly not assets wise...I mean it's not going to be easy but i can see it being on the lower end of the spectrum. The majority of the work is going to be in the level design itself.


but there is nothing about Mario that's inherently expensive to make. The 2D games generally reuse like the same 3-4 music tracks no less than 20 times throughout the entire game and world acts all share assets in some way or another.


Nope.
 
OP
OP
Glio

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,534
Spain
Well 2D Mario games got shoveled out at a pretty impressive rate last generation.

Metroidvanias take forever to do, Nintendo themselves don't seem to even want to bother with them unless they're remakes. Same with Castlevania

so i mean it isn't that surprising

If it were so easy to make a 2D Mario and so complicated to do a Metroidvania, you would not kick Steam and you would get five new Metroidvanias.

They do not even sell better and they have never done it. There must be some reason beyond that.
 

b00

Member
Oct 28, 2017
201
I know Spelunky is closer to Splunker but it also has that Mario charm imo.
 

LightEntite

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,079
Which gimmicks? The way I remember the NSMB games, most levels seem to have a singular gimmick like a see saw platform or a special kind of enemy, which only appears in like one or two stages.

Well that's the second thing that confused me about his post because I can't really recall too many big Mario gimmicks.

Honestly the game with the most [fun] gimmicks i can recall was SMB3. The few gimmicks it actually had were indeed sparse, but that isn't necessarily what made it a good game

If it were so easy to make a 2D Mario and so complicated to do a Metroidvania, you would not kick Steam and you would get five new Metroidvanias.

They do not even sell better and they have never done it. There must be some reason beyond that.

beats me

and i never said they sell better

i said they're less interesting


OP is asking where the "famous" ones are, which i assume means "sufficiently popular".


People are namedropping Super Meat Boy and Celeste and others are saying that isn't really Mario-esque enough (and i agree)

There are more than a few notable indie Metroidvanias though
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,474
I think the closest things are games like these...

Independent

Rad Rogers
Giana Sisters
Max: The Curse of the Brotherhood
Shovel Knight

Non-independent

Mickeys Castle of Illusion
Rayman Origins & Legends
LittleBigPlanet series

In general I think indies who want to make their own games want to make slightly more ambitious titles. I don't mean to say that in a way that discredits the Mario games, but often indies have a story to tell or some epic plan for their intertwining level design. I'm not saying it's easy to design traditional Mario styled games, but I think it's more challenging to design a good metroidvania. Backtracking is a pet peve of many players so to design a game which interlinks and flows naturally, affording good pacing is inherently difficult.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
The truth is that 2D mario just really isn't all that interesting.

Honestly, it isn't. The majority of the New Super Mario Bros. games were pretty underwhelming.

And despite years and years of new 2D Mario games from Nintendo themselves, people still generally agree that either SMB3 or SMW was the peak of the series.



IMO Mario gameplay at its core is just too boring to really warrant a faithful copy-pasta like you would for Metroid or Castlevania. It's like one THE most vanilla videogames ever made.
It's pretty easy to say that if all you look at is the mechanics which pretty much solidified in 1988. The whole reason Mario games are still so good today is their amazing level design. Also IMO the New Super Mario Bros games don't get enough credit for adding the wall jump, ground pound, triple jump, and midair spin to the regular Mario gameplay. Those are all used very well in the level design to allow for things that were never in the original Mario games.
 

Zoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,017
Braid was the first big indie hit, and it's almost entirely a riff on Mario mechanics.
 

FreddeGredde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,905
Why doesn't Super Meat Boy count?
I haven't played Super Meat Boy in a long time, but how about temporary power-ups? That's something very typical for Mario that I can't recall from barely any other game.

Also, the pacing. Super Mario usually has quite long levels, you can take several hits and find mushrooms and other power-ups along the way to survive longer, which gives each level more variation in how they're finished. It's not just constant restarts until you make it (which is the route indies often seem to take).

And there are secrets everywhere! I think the secrets in Mario games is part of what makes them so fun. Whether you find an invisible block with an extra life, or a secret exit to a new level, it's just so satisfying to think "what if I go up THERE?" and the level designers have thought of it too and reward you for it.

Also, why are indie games often so crude, using blood and gore? Mario games have such a cozy atmosphere and charming enemies, and that might also add to it.

So really, there are many aspects that could be used for an indie game that isn't directly copying, but would still make them more Mario-like. Seems like there's a lot of potential here.
 

nbnt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,814
Because you can't beat Mario at his own game. Mario is simple, and making something simple yet as good as SMW or SMB3 is not easy. It's already been perfected.

Also, reading this thread, I really wish we had a term like Metroidvania for the Super Meat Boy breed of platformers, because they are nothing like Mario.
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,996
IMHO, you need most of these to be a Mario clone:
- Primary method of defeating enemies is jumping on them or actions that start by jumping on enemies (i.e., kicking a Koopa Troopa after jumping on one to knock out enemies)
- Scrolling levels (not a single screen)
- Power-ups (both temporary and permanent until you get hit)
- Platforming between moving platforms and jumping over gaps
- Ability to control your character's speed and switch between walking/running
- Collect coins/other collectables and get an extra life when you get a set amount
- Breaking blocks to get power-ups/collectables/find secrets
- Stand-alone courses that have secret areas, sometimes multiple paths/exits
- Goal is to get to the end of the level in a set period of time.
- You have to start from the beginning or go back to a limited number of checkpoints if you die.
- Boss at the end of the world

Games like Shovel Knight take much more inspiration from Mega Man & Ducktales than directly from Mario.

Super Meat Boy and Celeste are more based on clearing single screens versus having a whole level to explore.

I'd agree with the posters saying it's really hard to make a "Mario killer". Nobody really could in the 8-bit/16-bit days. Sonic or Donkey Kong Country came the closest but both those titles were mechanically different.
 
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Popetita

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
Man I have a great idea for a Mario Roguelike. Hopefully one day I can see it to completion.
 

Crayolan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,774
On the surface Mario games are very basic but you know it's Mario so the level design will be good and the controls will be solid. If you found a really basic-looking indie 2d platformer you wouldn't have that same trust so why would you play it? It'd need really good word of mouth but it'd be difficult for it to get that word of mouth in the first place. Whereas with a more challenge-focused platformer the appeal is immediately apparent, and honestly probably more in-line with the tastes of people who like to buy indie platformers anyway.
 

Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,018
Because most great indies want to add their own twist to a genre. Many might start off by making something similar to Mario, but will end up with something that ultimately sets them apart.
 

correojon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,410
I´ve tried making a Mario-clone and I can atest that doing something more self-contained, like Celeste or Super Meat Boy, is a lot more simple. For starters, you can save a lot of time repeating assets and reusing mechanics: as challenges are so small and quick you can use a new type of platform in several challenges before it becomes too tiring, but in a Mario-like game, where levels are much longer and the player has to replay parts of it everytime he dies, that can easily become repetitive. Also, every level must present a new mechanic, so in the end you have to design a lot more stuff and you can´t really use it to create as much content as in "One-screen-challenge-platformer".
The same goes for assets: you can spend quite some time in a level if you try to explore and take your time, so reusing backgrounds, music, etc...will soon become much more apparent than in something like Meat Boy, where you are constantly changing screens and are always advancing towards a new level with a new setting.
A very important aspect is that it´s just much more complex to edit a big level than a small one. Even in big levels, every platform is designed with intent behind almost every pixel, so when you find that a challenge in the middle of the level isn´t working like you expected and you need to reallocate it or make it use more/less space, it may also force you to redesign a lot of other parts of the level. In one-screen-challenge-platformers the levels are tiny in comparison, so any modification is much easier to implement. If you try to put shortcuts and secret areas in the level the complexity scalates like crazy, though this can be kept more manageable if you make those areas isolated like the bonus areas in Mario which are entered through pipes.
Big levels have other associated nuances as well, like the engine having to manage a big level in real time instead of just a small room where everything can be controlled much more easily. You have to control when enemies and platforms start to move so you don´t screw the level´s pace, you have to manage the camera to frame correctly each challenge when the player approaches them, you have to take care that something off-camera doesn´t screw the whole level, like an enemy with a required key falling on a pit...
Finally, Mario is kind of looked down by enthusiasts. Just look at this thread and people downplaying the New Super Mario games (BTW, NSMBU is one of the best 2D Marios, up there with SMW and SMB3). Most likely a Mario clone will be looked down like a begginner´s game, a game for kids, or something plain uninteresting. However if you come up with a cool gimmick like time manipulation for Braid, you can advertise your game on that and be received much better, almost like a work of art. Or focus on difficulty like Meat Boy and take advantage of the perception of Mario being childish to sell your game as "mature/hardcore". You instantly gain more recognition and goodwill from your possible audience, while using less time/resources than if you went for a Mario clone.

Taking all this into account, the real question should be: why would anyone on their right mid make a Mario clone?

Disclaimer: I love Braid and Meat Boy, if anything on my post seems negative towards them it´s just not my intention. I´m just using them as comparison because they are instantly recognizable by everyone. They are both awesome games.



Naw, there were a few puzzles where you had to let the enemies jump off your head with inverse Mario mechanics later on.
Braid is a puzzle platformer, the focus is heavily in finding the solution to the puzzles, to the point where you can just walk to the end of some levels with no opposition. Mario is about clearing a course; the puzzle component is very light and it relies more in skill. Besides that, Braid takes one gimmick (time manipulation) and plays it with in different ways in every world; it´s true that it also introduces some new elements but all of them are designed around the time mechanic. Mario introduces new mechanics in every level and those mechanics hog the spotlight for as long as they´re present, they aren´t a secondary element to anything like Braid´s additional elements. Braid paids homage to Mario with Goombas, the fake Bowser, piranha plants, the theme of saving the princess and such, but the similarities really stop there and are mostly superficial and done in an almost ironic way, like the reversal of the "save the princess" trope at the end.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,411
The lack of good Indie platformers that just try and be good old 2D platformers really disappoint me. So many of them seem to try way too hard to rely on some gimmick or puzzle element that tends to ruin the fun.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
Super Meat Boy is the game you're thinking of.

EDIT: Ok, it's not exactly the SMB template.

I also would say Spelunky because of it's excellent 2D platforming but I completely understand that it's a very different game than SMB.
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
The problem is that Mario is very simple and charming, which is not easy to emulate. I'm not saying no indie 2D platforms can have simplicity or charm, but those are very subjective qualities that are very hard to perceive.

It seems to be way more guaranteed to make something clear (like SMB's difficulty and fast pace, Celeste's puzzles and story, Cave Story's difficulty, etc) than to try making something that is hard to explain.

What are the qualities in Mario that you can emulate? The power-ups? The different worlds? What is it?
 

Nabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
Yeah. And we did get a pretty great Rayman-esque game last year with Splasher (even has former devs) but it's not very well known.

Glad to see you mention Splasher. It was one of my favorite games last year and really offers that modern Rayman type of game play. Impeccable level design in that game, especially when including collectibles and time trials.
 

Prof Bathtub

Member
Apr 26, 2018
2,677
High-profile independent 2D development seems to gravitate towards story, leveling, ability-based progression, nonlinear layouts, etc. Not that they look at the Mario format as "beneath them," but it often feels like it's seen as not sufficient to draw attention to their game, or to get design ideas flowing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,172
Did Nintendo get ostracised to any degree like PUBG/Bluehole did VS. fortnite? Perhaps the original Giana sisters was just way too similar to mario Bros I suppose.
The difference here is that they took legal action on a straight up copycat that was not gaining traction on their turf in the NES era. They weren't suing a game that had a power-up, or something of that ilk.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
I think it's a case of Mario really beating the competition, people would rather do mario hacks than new IPs in the genre, which is not a bad thing since it's what leads to different platforming takes like Super Meatboy and Celeste.
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
Because you assume that it's easy enough for an indie developer to just make a 'Mario-like' game that could rival the stuff Nintendo did - even the stuff from 30 years ago - and I can tell you it's just not. Mario is all about good level design and level design is an artform that most designers out there just haven't mastered at all. We've had designers with tons of experience go through our tests (everyone who wants to work at Moon Studios has to do a quick test so we can check their skills) and a lot of them just aren't that great at designing spaces in the way Nintendo can. It's actually an incredibly rare talent. There's tons of designers out there who THINK they can do it, cause it looks oh so simple, but once they actually have to sit their butts down and design in that way, a lot of them suffer and stumble their way through it and the result more often than not leaves a lot to be desired.

I would bet that there's way less than 100 people in the entire western gaming industry that understand design in that way. Compare the indie output in terms of platformers from the last 10 years to games like Super Mario Bros. 3 or Super Mario World - if you understand a thing or two about design, you'll probably notice that there's a huge gap in quality between them. This is really a field where technology doesn't help you at all: Just cause we got better computers doesn't mean that anybody will do the design work for you and even though you'd think people have studied Nintendo's output and the way they do things over the years, most of them can't deliver on anywhere even near that level of quality.

If you look at the current AAA industry, I think you'll see what I mean: None of the big AAA games truly bank on good level design because (and this is me saying something controversial that really shouldn't be) most of these studios don't really have designers that are all that great and that could make successful games that are reliant upon good level design. The way most studios handle level design is more about spectacle, working a lot with environment artists to create 'interest', using open world terrain tools so that they don't have to labor over every inch, etc. - All the successful western AAA studios make games that work despite, not because of their level design. This is also why most western devs out there still love Nintendo's output, cause they're clearly better in many regards than they themselves are and there's still a lot to learn from them. Here's my super controversial bet: Even if you'd take the absolute best designers from places like, say, Naughty Dog and task them to create a game as good as Super Mario Bros. 3, I'd bet that they couldn't do it. You need a certain breed of designers that understand design on the level those Nintendo folks did and that kinda talent mostly doesn't exist in the current industry.
 

Billy Awesomo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,769
New York, New York
Because you assume that it's easy enough for an indie developer to just make a 'Mario-like' game that could rival the stuff Nintendo did - even the stuff from 30 years ago - and I can tell you it's just not. Mario is all about good level design and level design is an artform that most designers out there just haven't mastered at all. We've had designers with tons of experience go through our tests (everyone who wants to work at Moon Studios has to do a quick test so we can check their skills) and a lot of them just aren't that great at designing spaces in the way Nintendo can. It's actually an incredibly rare talent. There's tons of designers out there who THINK they can do it, cause it looks oh so simple, but once they actually have to sit their butts down and design in that way, a lot of them suffer and stumble their way through it and the result more often than not leaves a lot to be desired.

I would bet that there's way less than 100 people in the entire western gaming industry that understand design in that way. Compare the indie output in terms of platformers from the last 10 years to games like Super Mario Bros. 3 or Super Mario World - if you understand a thing or two about design, you'll probably notice that there's a huge gap in quality between them. This is really a field where technology doesn't help you at all: Just cause we got better computers doesn't mean that anybody will do the design work for you and even though you'd think people have studied Nintendo's output and the way they do things over the years, most of them can't deliver on anywhere even near that level of quality.

If you look at the current AAA industry, I think you'll see what I mean: None of the big AAA games truly bank on good level design because (and this is me saying something controversial that really shouldn't be) most of these studios don't really have designers that are all that great and that could make successful games that are reliant upon good level design. The way most studios handle level design is more about spectacle, working a lot with environment artists to create 'interest', using open world terrain tools so that they don't have to labor over every inch, etc. - All the successful western AAA studios make games that work despite, not because of their level design. This is also why most western devs out there still love Nintendo's output, cause they're clearly better in many regards than they themselves are and there's still a lot to learn from them. Here's my super controversial bet: Even if you'd take the absolute best designers from places like, say, Naughty Dog and task them to create a game as good as Super Mario Bros. 3, I'd bet that they couldn't do it. You need a certain breed of designers that understand design on the level those Nintendo folks did and that kinda talent mostly doesn't exist in the current industry.
This, this times x 1000. I totally agree with this thought. Level design is an art form that Nintendo designers have been honing for years. It also helps that not many people leave Nintendo and thus have the ability to hone this skill even more so, mainly cause they've literally been designing platformers for for 30 yrs at this point.
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
Momentum-based movement, moderate air control, powerups that are also extra health, and rock solid level design.
Aren't three of those present in Super Meat Boy and Rayman Origins/Legends? And to be fair, the powerups that are also extra health is not exactly something I associate with Mario in terms of quality. It's just there, you know?

I feel like asking for these exact things is like complaining that no one does metroidvanias with main characters called Alucard for the PS1.
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
This, this times x 1000. I totally agree with this thought. Level design is an art form that Nintendo designers have been honing for years. It also helps that not many people leave Nintendo and thus have the ability to hone this skill even more so, mainly cause they've literally been designing platformers for for 30 yrs at this point.

Yeah. Way back in the day at Disney, from the time you were hired as an animator, they understood that it'd take you about 5 years to create your first good animation that'd be usable in their films. That was just the time it took to learn the craft. I'd bet that even a good designer who worked a couple of years in the industry would need a good 3 or so years before they'd be able to create a level that'd actually fit into a Nintendo game. There's an art to designing interactive spaces that most western AAA Studios just don't seem to be interested in learning, so they make games that work even if they don't feature great level design.

In the indie space, it's very obvious which designers actually understand what they're doing when it comes to level design, simply cause they've been doing it (and failing at it and learning from it) for years and years and now they understand the craft. You got folks like Matt Thorson who can sit his ass down and create a platformer that immediately becomes a critical hit simply cause the guy spent so much time honing his skills in that space, making games that are completely reliant on good level design. I'd say the same thing about Edmund McMillen: He went through a period of making shit games until he finally learned how to do it right and showed that to the world by making Super Meat Boy. Whoever Yacht Club has on designing levels for Shovel Knight is a damn good designer in my book. I'd humbly suggest that we know what we're doing at Moon in regards to level design, also just cause we've decided to make games that rely on good level design and we've been learning and trying to master that craft ever since. It's really tough finding designers that can deliver on the level of quality we need simply cause you don't acquire the right skills by working on modern western AAA games.
 
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More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Honestly, I'd point to Spelunky, particularly because the major inspiration for it was SMB, where instead of memorizing the best route through a set platforming level, progression was about learning the systems and using those skills to tackle any kind of challenge.
According to Spelunky creator Derek Yu, one of the game's biggest inspirations, especially in terms of the feel and physics, was the Super Mario series.
 

JusDoIt

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,793
South Central Los Angeles
Only Nintendo can really do it. That was the case in the 80s and 90s. That's the case today. It's kind of like how all other fighting game developers generally steer clear of Street Fighter grounded footsies.
 

Deleted member 4247

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,896
Why are people mentioning Rayman? Those games aren't really similar to classic Mario at all, beyond just being 2D platformers.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Which Nintendo took legal action against.

And that's why we don't see many games copying the Mario formula.

They actually did not take legal action against the Great Giana Sisters, that's an urban myth. They did, however, threaten to stop providing inventory to shops that sold the game, and the shops removed the game themselves until rainbow arts killed the game entirely.

Also, there have been several Giana Sisters games since the original, including a sequel on the C64 itself.
 

Stoze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,593
Honestly, I'd point to Spelunky, particularly because the major inspiration for it was SMB, where instead of memorizing the best route through a set platforming level, progression was about learning the systems and using those skills to tackle any kind of challenge.
Good call, the more I think about it the more it fits - looking up or down for a second to see more of the level ala Super Mario World, jumping on enemies to dispose of them, mystery crates instead of blocks, sometimes have multiple exits in a level, etc.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
This discussion really does make clear what a specific thing these various 2D platformer designs really are.

And OP is right, Giana Sisters exists, but that's kinda a legacy remake (and I don't think it even holds a candle).

A good chunk of Mario's appeal really is a very delicate sense of style that I've seen VERY few developers touch. Bonk got it, Sonic got its own style... It's not something you simply do. It's friggin hard.

Same with Mario's gameplay. There's a reason we have a billion 2D platformers and only a small handful are actually good. It's actually friggin hard to do well.

Aiming for Mario and inevitably failing is a worse bet than making a VR title.