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Any JRPGs with truly great dungeon design?
- Thread starter FolderBrad
- Start date
Persona 5
I often see complaints about its dungeons and see people even say that 3 & 4 had better dungeons. Like, wtf?
I even liked Okumura's dungeon, so I was greatly surprised by the amount of people that hated it.
Shido's palace sucked though, no question.
I often see complaints about its dungeons and see people even say that 3 & 4 had better dungeons. Like, wtf?
I even liked Okumura's dungeon, so I was greatly surprised by the amount of people that hated it.
Shido's palace sucked though, no question.
The Franchise got great designs with good fun puzzles and perfect soundtracks for it.
God I miss the series so much :'-(
Yep, Wild ARMs and Wild ARMs 2 have some of the best dungeon design I've ever experienced. Lufia 2 is awesome as well, except for those "These enemies move in patterns based on your movements, make them step on switches!" puzzles. Those are bad.
Etrian Odyssey series. SMT Strange Journey. Atlus is pretty good at making fun dungeon crawlers .
I also enjoyed the old school Shining in the Darkness.
I also enjoyed the old school Shining in the Darkness.
People don't like those dungeons because they're loooong. Each dungeon is going to take you at least six hour to complete, and they get longer as you continue. They aren't also interesting they have small gimmick with a very simple puzzle. So it's not surprising people might prefer P4G dungeons where even though they're bland looking they only take like two hours complete at the most. Only thing I can give the Persona 5 dungeons are that they look nice. That's pretty much it.
What? It's a JRPG. You are suppose to spend time in dungeon. And the more elaborated, the better.
Lucia 2, Golden Sun, Wild Arms all spring to mind. Also stuff like Shiren the Wanderer and the various Mystery Dungeon games, Etrian Odyssey, and the Shin Megami Tensei series.
Brandish: The Dark Revenant and Xanadu Next are also feature fantastic dungeon design, but they are Action RPGs with real time combat.
Brandish: The Dark Revenant and Xanadu Next are also feature fantastic dungeon design, but they are Action RPGs with real time combat.
I guess to each to their own. In my opinion the weakest part of Persona is the dungeons/ battle systems, and I prefer the social links/story. The battles are turn based and the battle system is just worse version of Pokemon. If the battle system was you know fun, I wouldn't have minded the dungeons being 6+ hours long. And the Persono 5 dungeons didn't have interesting puzzles, they were relatively easy. If they fleshed it out with more entertaining and difficult puzzles then my opinion might have been different. As of now I just think Persona 5 dungeons are boring and overstay their welcome.
Don't get me wrong. Persona 4 dungeons are also boring. They just don't take 6+ hours to complete.
I'm glad wild arms has been posted here. Wild Arms 1-3 were the first games that came to mind when I read the topic title.
Shin Megami Tensei games have some intricate dungeons that feel like someone just used the dungeon generator feature in RPG Maker. They are way too complicated and don't tell any stories. It's usually just a bunch of corridors with good music. Etrian Odyssey also suffers from this, but I feel like they do a better job in feeling self contained instead of looking like a forced RPG dungeon.
But I like some of the dungeons in Final Fantasy XII, especially the mines. They have big sections of actual mining and usually connect one map to another, and feel like they actually make sense.
But I like some of the dungeons in Final Fantasy XII, especially the mines. They have big sections of actual mining and usually connect one map to another, and feel like they actually make sense.
I had no problem with the long dungeons. I had a blast going through em (and six hours is an exaggeration). And they had some fun parts like the airlock in the space palace or the painting room in the art gallery.
4's dungeons were not only bland, they were just so boring. It was the same exact thing over and over.
Floor 1, look for stairs
Floor 2, look for stairs
Rinse repeat.
Golden Sun's dungeons are still unmatched - they were huge, complex and you had a lot of different magical ways to interact with your environment. After playing the Golden Sun games I was always disappointed with the dungeon design of any other JRPG that I played after that.
I loved it and hated it so much at the same time.
Cake, baby.
Also yeah, Lydia 2 is the first one to come to mind for me.
Six hours is not an exaggeration. Unless you were playing the game on the easiest difficulty or were going through the dungeons in parts through out multiple days. The shortest dungeon is the pyramid every other one is going take 6+ hours.
I didn't find the puzzles to be fun. A jigsaw puzzle, finding the foot of a statue, placing books in the correct position ,etc. They could have all been entertaining if they didn't make it so simple and basically give you the answer.
Yes, Persona 4 dungeon are boring too. But they also take like one third the amount of time to complete. Which makes them better imo.
This was going to be my nomination.
I also really enjoyed the dungeons in Tokyo Mirage Sessions, but that's perhaps a YMMV thing.
Six hours is absolutely not an exaggeration, especially if you were playing on hard lmfao.
Persona 5's dungeons are bland as shit outside of Kamoshida's Castle and the Casino which were both fun.
Taking less time doesn't make them better if there's no real design to them. 10F of corridors and a mid boss on the fifth floor for nine dungeons isn't fun just dull. Even Tartarus throws floor changes at you every once in a while.
Probably because it's never been rereleased and the DS remake is pretty bad.
The Golden Sun dungeons are some of the best and most fun around. Especially the elemental lighthouses and the elemental rocks in The Lost Age. I wish JRPGs took a cue from Golden Sun more often when it comes to environmental puzzles. The way psynergy is used to solve puzzles lead to some great variety that I've yet to find in other games outside of maybe the The Legend of Zelda series.
Glad to see so many people mentioning Golden Sun. I just finished replaying the first one last night and started up TLA this morning, such fantastic games.
Compared to its contemporaries, Final Fantasy IV was a major step forward for RPG dungeon design. NES and early SNES dungeons were pretty simple and boring in design. FF IV really pushed dungeon exploration to be more interesting in JRPGs. While it had a bunch of simple dungeons, it also had a bunch of really cool stand out ones.
The waterway at the beginning of the game was varied, moving between rooms with non-linear layouts and varied visual themes. It had a few hidden rooms with treasure, one behind a waterfall. It even had a brief intermission trip to the overworld which functioned as its second save point. It all ended with jumping off a waterfall too.
The Cave of Magnes had a really neat gimmick: the entire dungeon was magnetized, limiting your equipment options. The gimmick forced the player to make some big adjustments to strategy for that dungeon.
So FFIV is where actual decent dungeon design really began, and I think a few of its dungeons still hold up fairly well as examples of good dungeon design.
The waterway at the beginning of the game was varied, moving between rooms with non-linear layouts and varied visual themes. It had a few hidden rooms with treasure, one behind a waterfall. It even had a brief intermission trip to the overworld which functioned as its second save point. It all ended with jumping off a waterfall too.
The Cave of Magnes had a really neat gimmick: the entire dungeon was magnetized, limiting your equipment options. The gimmick forced the player to make some big adjustments to strategy for that dungeon.
So FFIV is where actual decent dungeon design really began, and I think a few of its dungeons still hold up fairly well as examples of good dungeon design.
Wild ARMs, Golden Sun, and Shining the Holy Ark. Maybe Panzer Dragoon Saga.
But the first two are the best I've seen, with clever puzzle solving and rewarding exploration.
But the first two are the best I've seen, with clever puzzle solving and rewarding exploration.
Erm...?
Me too, dude
The Franchise got great designs with good fun puzzles and perfect soundtracks for it.
God I miss the series so much :'-(
There might not have been complex dungeons like in some other games (and truth be told, I've never been a fan of those, especially not after Daggerfall), but I recall a few interesting parts, like getting shrunk, and having to fight through some underground areas in order to reach the chess battle or the one near the end where you can pick up cursed weapons (although that might have been the first game, come to think of it).
I played on Normal, the longest dungeon would probably be Shido's palace which was at least under 5 hours.
I explored every crevice and fought every enemy.
It has one dungeon, it is at the end, it is the worst thing ever designed.
Oh, I love that game, but I wouldn't consider those "dungeons", exactly. They are battle maps, and SF2 is a strategy/tactical RPG, not a traditional dungeon-based RPG like what the OP had in mind. I agree it had some really cool and unique maps though.
Either we didn't play the same game, or have wildly different interpretations about what a dungeon is. Because I can assure you there's sure as fuck more than one dungeon in SMT4A. And they all range from decent to great
FF XV's are great in general. I love how they look like actual caves, including geometry - such a nice change from XII and XIII's texture boxes.
And then of course there's Pitioss!
Recently I also liked the dungeons in Alliance Alive. Short and to the point and each with a fun or clever gimmick.
For more Zelda like, obviously Lufia 2.
But then, I never liked Zelda's dungeons - the puzzling is fun, but makes them feel super artificial and gamey in a way I'm not crazy about and that does not work well when transferred to a story focused rpg.
And then of course there's Pitioss!
Recently I also liked the dungeons in Alliance Alive. Short and to the point and each with a fun or clever gimmick.
For more Zelda like, obviously Lufia 2.
But then, I never liked Zelda's dungeons - the puzzling is fun, but makes them feel super artificial and gamey in a way I'm not crazy about and that does not work well when transferred to a story focused rpg.
Boom, first response nails it.
Nice write-up. I think FFIV is criminally underrated. It's definitely worth a jam if you want some golden age JRPG charm.
Cool thread, I need more good stuff to add my list of RPGs to play and conversation of the genre is so limited to stuff like writing that it's hard to find games that deliver in this respect.
Personally I love Nocturne, Strange Journey and obviously Etrian Odyssey, but the latter is a given. I recently played Grandia for the first time and while I haven't seen that many dungeons, the few I've played through have been surprisingly interactive with little mechanisms and puzzles, so they feel quite "organic" in a way.
Actually, I'll be that guy and say Persona 5 too.
Fragmentary Passage seemed to get more creative with dungeons in terms of atmosphere and design, so I REALLY hope they try to do something similar in KH3.
Personally I love Nocturne, Strange Journey and obviously Etrian Odyssey, but the latter is a given. I recently played Grandia for the first time and while I haven't seen that many dungeons, the few I've played through have been surprisingly interactive with little mechanisms and puzzles, so they feel quite "organic" in a way.
Actually, I'll be that guy and say Persona 5 too.
These are so good in atmosphere, sense of danger and mechanics.
My man. I love KH but I've always felt indifferent about the worlds, except Hollow Bastion. I replayed KH1 for the first time in like a decade last year and I was floored by how cool Hollow Bastion is, which is funny because I hated it when I was younger.
Fragmentary Passage seemed to get more creative with dungeons in terms of atmosphere and design, so I REALLY hope they try to do something similar in KH3.
People treat combat and dungeons in modern Persona like they're just annoying obstacles between them and the story and dating nonsense instead of the actual meat of the game (a dungeon crawler at that) , it's damn weird. Personally I loved them in P5 and thought they were all good save for the 5th palace. The 1st, 4th and 6th especially were awesome.
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Not great in the grand scheme of jrpgs but I'm always reminded how Pokemon RBY had some more interesting dungeons like Silph Co, and the Rocket underground base.
It's been ages since I played Lost Odyssey, did that have good dungeons, for some reason I feel as if it did, but maybe I'm imagining it.
It's been ages since I played Lost Odyssey, did that have good dungeons, for some reason I feel as if it did, but maybe I'm imagining it.
Etrian Odyssey series. The entire game is basically just dungeon crawling, so it's a good thing it's fun.
There are a few things that make the dungeon crawling work really well in this series:
- FOE puzzles are really good. I feel like they are incorporated pretty organically into the dungeons. Also I like how there is some wiggle room in their solutions. You can solve it perfectly and get through entirely unscathed. Or you can solve it partially correct and then be forced to fight and run from the FOE. Or you can just fight your way through if you are really strong and hate puzzles.
- Map drawing is actually really fun. I think it makes exploring the floors feel more satisfying and important.
- Frequent checkpoints mean you're never punished too hard for failure. Also when you die you keep your map, kind of a consolation prize for failure. Most importantly, I like how the game allows you to explore the dungeons at whatever pace you feel most comfortable at. For me, I like to head back to the city after every checkpoint. But if you're bolder, you could stay in longer and press on further. So there's kind of a risk/reward mechanic there.
There are a few things that make the dungeon crawling work really well in this series:
- FOE puzzles are really good. I feel like they are incorporated pretty organically into the dungeons. Also I like how there is some wiggle room in their solutions. You can solve it perfectly and get through entirely unscathed. Or you can solve it partially correct and then be forced to fight and run from the FOE. Or you can just fight your way through if you are really strong and hate puzzles.
- Map drawing is actually really fun. I think it makes exploring the floors feel more satisfying and important.
- Frequent checkpoints mean you're never punished too hard for failure. Also when you die you keep your map, kind of a consolation prize for failure. Most importantly, I like how the game allows you to explore the dungeons at whatever pace you feel most comfortable at. For me, I like to head back to the city after every checkpoint. But if you're bolder, you could stay in longer and press on further. So there's kind of a risk/reward mechanic there.
Replaying Grandia recently, I was surprised at how good some of the dungeon design is. There's a good bit of variety from the ghost ship to the End of the World (which is a giant wall so the entire dungeon is mostly vertical) to various ancient ruins. Good number of basic puzzles and secrets, along with the occasional enemy ambush. Some difficult mazes as well. I think the reason why it's rarely held up as a sign of great dungeon design is because the camera isn't very good which makes things more confusing than they should be and there's a fair number of filler dungeons as well.
I haven't replayed it recently, but I remember at the time thinking that Paladin's Quest (SNES RPG, known as Lennus in Japan) had good dungeon design.
There are a few reasons why it isn't mentioned as much as other great SNES RPGs. One, it came out about the same time as Chrono Trigger and so as the prequel to a fairly average game by a smaller company, it got overshadowed. Two, unlike other popular SNES RPGs, it hasn't been rereleased digitally - you can easily play Chrono Trigger, FF4, FF6, Earthbound, SMRPG, and others these days, but to play the original Lufia 2, you either need a SNES or you need to emulate it.
I haven't replayed it recently, but I remember at the time thinking that Paladin's Quest (SNES RPG, known as Lennus in Japan) had good dungeon design.
There are a few reasons why it isn't mentioned as much as other great SNES RPGs. One, it came out about the same time as Chrono Trigger and so as the prequel to a fairly average game by a smaller company, it got overshadowed. Two, unlike other popular SNES RPGs, it hasn't been rereleased digitally - you can easily play Chrono Trigger, FF4, FF6, Earthbound, SMRPG, and others these days, but to play the original Lufia 2, you either need a SNES or you need to emulate it.
I actually preferred the dungeons in P4. They definitely are not great, but the random corridor design they had meant I could zone out completely and just focus on the battles while listening to great music. The amount of backtracking required in P5 dungeons, as well as the obnoxious design decisions, really pissed me off and dragged the dungeons on for way too long.